Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[lbrasz44]

+
+
+
+

 

[Frihetsanka]

Some people have been asking for a list without any suggested unofficial tiers. I'm slightly worried that not having any will cause some confusion, but I'm willing to try for a round and see how it turns out.

Votes thus far:

1: [1][0]
2: [0][1][-1]
Moving up to 2: [7][4][3]
3: [1][0][-1][-2]
Moving up to 3: [3]
4: [2][0][-1]
Moving up to 4: [3]
5: [0][-1][-2]
Moving down to 6: [-5]
Moving up to 5: [3]
6: [2][1][0][-1]
Moving up to 6: [3]
7: [-2]
8: [2][1][0]

 

[Zerp]

-1
-1
+1
+1
+1

Saving my last vote.

 

[Bowserboy3]

-1
-1
+1
+1
+1

Saving my last vote.

I see 5 votes already...

 

[Wintermelon43]

I see 5 votes already...

If you add "Saving my last vote' to the end of your post, you're allowed to vote a 6th time kappa.

 

[Zerp]

I see 5 votes already...

Wow, I can't believe I somehow managed to trick myself into thinking I made 4 votes instead of 5, that's actually kind of sad on my part, lol.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-
-
- (Samus get down from there. You're drunk, and none of your mains are really getting much in the way of results anymore)
-

Holding onto last vote.

I'll drop the discussion at this point as its getting no where and people are trying to grab examples/ideas that are too vaguely related. I'll summarize it with this: I value a very high degree of consistency (see, me generally being very slow at accepting large character jumps). If there is something that would mess with that consistency imo I will reject it. I feel the Japanese metagame and rules are not consistent with the rest of the world. Just because there are no different button inputs or whatnot, doesn't mean things can be pulled off here like they can be over there. What's more difficult to do: win a game while banking on Wario's waft, or winning a whole set while having to bank on it? Or to figure out how to beat an opponent's Sonic style in one game or one set?

If they completely can Bo1 and have their regions with even smaller legal stage lists change it to be more in line with the NA ones I'll reevaluate using their results. Until that point in time, I won't use them. Their current set up adds variables seen nowhere else in the metagame. That tampers with results, messes with character consistency in different ways.

Last vote: -

He's in the perfect spot atm (accidentally since tiers are currently unordered. But if they were ordered it would be perfect for him).

Changing - to -

 

[Bigbomb2]

/ -
+ Bayo is scary yo
+
+

Yeah dunno what else to do

 

[MERPIS]

Oh please, Marth in the same tier as villager and MK? Get that outta here.
Also + for Sonic, losing to only 1-2 characters in -1's is a feat no one else has.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Oh please, Marth in the same tier as villager and MK? Get that outta here.

Well, when the character has better results than those two, it makes sense for Marth to be in the same tier as them... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Of course, results aren't everything, but I'm not going to bring up the whole argument of why Marth is great again unless you force my hand.

In short? Marth has better results, and as good a matchup spread as those two. Do the maths.

 

[MERPIS]

Well, when the character has better results than those two, it makes sense for Marth to be in the same tier as them... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Of course, results aren't everything, but I'm not going to bring up the whole argument of why Marth is great again unless you force my hand.

In short? Marth has better results, and as good a matchup spread as those two. Do the maths.

What the hell are you on? MK has won multiple tournaments since 1.1.4 and without his jank. Villager got 5th at evo and 3rd at big house 2015. Winning one little tournament with 2 top players is not enough to put Marth in the top 13.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Winning one little tournament with 2 top players is not enough to put Marth in the top 13.

He doesn't have to be top 13 to be tier 2, he might be top 15 or top 16.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What the hell are you on? MK has won multiple tournaments since 1.1.4 and without his jank. Villager got 5th at evo and 3rd at big house 2015. Winning one little tournament with 2 top players is not enough to put Marth in the top 13.

........Villager did neither of those things.

Marth has just as good results, the reason why he isn't tier 2 is his bad matchup spread and not as good theory.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

What the hell are you on? MK has won multiple tournaments since 1.1.4 and without his jank. Villager got 5th at evo and 3rd at big house 2015. Winning one little tournament with 2 top players is not enough to put Marth in the top 13.

What the hell are you on?!? No Villager got 3rd at TBH5 and why should that even count when that was an entire year ago?!? Also, Marth has been getting better solo placings then MK. For example at this years EVO, Ito, highest placing MK at EVO, got the same placing as Pugwest, however Mr.E outplayed him. At a Big House, Mr.E got 9th. I have rarely seen Leo use MK recently(only time I did was against Mr.R at SF.) and he has been getting most of his recent results with the combo of Marth/Cloud. Like, I can understand if you think marth can be lower, just don't spread misinformation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Maybe he meant 3rd at Genesis 3?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Can we stop with the passive-aggressiveness/actual aggressiveness? It doesn't really help prove anyone's point, and it poisons the debate climate.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Maybe he meant 3rd at Genesis 3?

I believe so, but even then that was almost a year ago, prior to bayo/corrin, prior to the game changing patch, and prior then a huge meta adujustment


EDIT: Also Frihetsanka while I am stopping and don't mean any harm by this, you do start similar disputes from time to time. I perhaps shouldn't have said this as it might come across the wrong way, but still something I wanted to er off my chest

 

[Bowserboy3]

What the hell are you on? MK has won multiple tournaments since 1.1.4 and without his jank. Villager got 5th at evo and 3rd at big house 2015. Winning one little tournament with 2 top players is not enough to put Marth in the top 13.

Well, if I am on something, I'm on exactly the same thing as almost every other player/user, including DasKoopa, who tallies all results...

Take a look at this - https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Marth is further in results OVERALL than Meta Knight and Villager.

I wanted to avoid this kind of discussion, but it can't be helped. Wintermelon43 doesn't play or understand Marth, so allow me to explain the ins and outs of the character.

Marth's MU spread is great, only legitimately losing to 2 or 3 characters, being Sheik, Sonic and arguably DK or Mega Man. Everyone else, Marth either beats or has an even MU with them. Of more note, he has good MU's with the rest of the top tiers, something that boosts a characters viability by a huge amount. He is even a notable MU to a few characters, being Mario, Rosalina and Cloud; Marth can give these three trouble.

Now, anyone can say a characters MU spread is good without backing, so, what's the reason for Marth's MU spread being great? This is due to a combination of possessing one of the biggest overall reaches in the game, which is complimented by his quick moves, namely Jab, Ftilt and Dtilt. He also possesses arguably the best burst punishing tool in the entire game; Dancing Blade. Marth's game flows together well.

Marth's "theory" is also good; Wintermelon43 also still lives in the past where Marth legitimately did have poor theory (think pre 1.1.4). Marth's theory revolves around spacing his opponent out and punishing. Why does this work? Because Marth has one of the longest reaches in the game, and this is complimented by his quick attacks, and good movement options. Marth can space out almost any character in the game with a combination of his moves. As an example, before 1.1.4, Marth struggled to do this, because his moves (while still good in reach) still weren't long enough to be consistent, and were still laggy (take Ftilt and Jab for example). What did 1.1.4 do? It increased his range on ALL of his important spacing moves, and reduced the lag on some of the most important move (oh, I wonder which ones? Jab and Ftilt, that's right). All of these mesh well into eachother.

I also want to push the point that...

Good characters get results

Shocking, I know, but it's true! Characters with bad MU spreads or bad theory don't just sail into tournament and randomly get results. Marth gets results, an incredible amount at that. Characters ability to get results is backed by their MU spreads and theory, for example. Characters with bad MU spreads/theory don't get results (see Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Roy, Falco etc). Simply saying for example...

Marth has just as good results, the reason why he isn't tier 2 is his bad matchup spread and not as good theory.

... is like adding 2 + 2 + 2 and deciding the answer is 3; it's not what happens. Think of it like an equation. 2 + 2 + 2 is 6. Good MU's + Good Theory = Good Character = Results. Everything a character can do is almost like an equation. Marth has every part of the equation in his favour right now. Pre 1.1.4, he was missing parts of the equation. Saying Marth is essentially missing parts of the equation is contradicted by the fact he's getting results... it doesn't add up.

Before you come here spouting nonsense and spreading misinformation, come here with some EVIDENCE and a good argument, or you know, actually consider using and studying the characters. What you are up against here is a guy who mains Marth; you're trying to tell me you know more about a character you don't even play as opposed to somebody who knows the character almost inside out? I appreciate the discussion, but you need to at least have a decent knowledge of the character first.

If you want to discuss Marth further, or be educated on him, go to the Marth boards. You will learn far more about him here - https://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/.

It's like banging my head on a brick wall sometimes... It's not even like results don't back me up (like for example, me saying Jigglypuff is actually mid tier).

If anybody wants to reply/react/whatever about this comment, PM me. Do not discuss this any further here. This thread has enough Marth discussion, we don't need the same thing again.

 

[Frihetsanka]

EDIT: Also Frihetsanka while I am stopping and don't mean any harm by this, you do start similar disputes from time to time. I perhaps shouldn't have said this as it might come across the wrong way, but still something I wanted to er off my chest

It's not really the dispute as much as the tone. "What the hell are you on" and starting sentences ellipsis (such as .....) does not facilitate a good discussion. As far as things go, it's not that bad, but it does sour the debate climate a bit, and it can be hard to estimate how people might react.

Instead, the sentence could've easily been started without ellipsis, and "What the hell are you on" could've been left out entirely without really changing the content of the posts (two people wrote this, by the way, I'm not singing you out).

Let's compare these two theoretical posts:

"... Wow, you must be drunk or something. Players like Abandango and Rich Brown have proven that Mewtwo is a great character, and Mewtwo's matchup chart is pretty good too, enough to warrant tier 1."

"Players like Abandango and Rich Brown have proven that Mewtwo is a great character, and Mewtwo's matchup chart is pretty good too, enough to warrant tier 1."

I'd argue that the second post is preferable.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1
-1

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

O I'll get my votes in soon,since it seems like the dumb marth discussion might end.

 

[MERPIS]

........Villager did neither of those things.

Marth has just as good results, the reason why he isn't tier 2 is his bad matchup spread and not as good theory.

That's why he gets +2'd by Sonic and Pikachu and has a bunch of nasty little -1's here and there, right?

 

[Bowserboy3]

^ completely ignores detailed post.

GG's.

---

We've had a solid amount of votes so far actually. Some common trends are appearing.

And from what I can see, it seems isn't getting the expected movement like most of us thought.

I hope I haven't started anything with that...

 

[MERPIS]

Well, if I am on something, I'm on exactly the same thing as almost every other player/user, including DasKoopa, who tallies all results...

Take a look at this - https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Marth is further in results OVERALL than Meta Knight and Villager.

I wanted to avoid this kind of discussion, but it can't be helped. Wintermelon43 doesn't play or understand Marth, so allow me to explain the ins and outs of the character.

Marth's MU spread is great, only legitimately losing to 2 or 3 characters, being Sheik, Sonic and arguably DK or Mega Man. Everyone else, Marth either beats or has an even MU with them. Of more note, he has good MU's with the rest of the top tiers, something that boosts a characters viability by a huge amount. He is even a notable MU to a few characters, being Mario, Rosalina and Cloud; Marth can give these three trouble.

Now, anyone can say a characters MU spread is good without backing, so, what's the reason for Marth's MU spread being great? This is due to a combination of possessing one of the biggest overall reaches in the game, which is complimented by his quick moves, namely Jab, Ftilt and Dtilt. He also possesses arguably the best burst punishing tool in the entire game; Dancing Blade. Marth's game flows together well.

Marth's "theory" is also good; Wintermelon43 also still lives in the past where Marth legitimately did have poor theory (think pre 1.1.4). Marth's theory revolves around spacing his opponent out and punishing. Why does this work? Because Marth has one of the longest reaches in the game, and this is complimented by his quick attacks, and good movement options. Marth can space out almost any character in the game with a combination of his moves. As an example, before 1.1.4, Marth struggled to do this, because his moves (while still good in reach) still weren't long enough to be consistent, and were still laggy (take Ftilt and Jab for example). What did 1.1.4 do? It increased his range on ALL of his important spacing moves, and reduced the lag on some of the most important move (oh, I wonder which ones? Jab and Ftilt, that's right). All of these mesh well into eachother.

I also want to push the point that...

Good characters get results

Shocking, I know, but it's true! Characters with bad MU spreads or bad theory don't just sail into tournament and randomly get results. Marth gets results, an incredible amount at that. Characters ability to get results is backed by their MU spreads and theory, for example. Characters with bad MU spreads/theory don't get results (see Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, Roy, Falco etc). Simply saying for example...



... is like adding 2 + 2 + 2 and deciding the answer is 3; it's not what happens. Think of it like an equation. 2 + 2 + 2 is 6. Good MU's + Good Theory = Good Character = Results. Everything a character can do is almost like an equation. Marth has every part of the equation in his favour right now. Pre 1.1.4, he was missing parts of the equation. Saying Marth is essentially missing parts of the equation is contradicted by the fact he's getting results... it doesn't add up.

Before you come here spouting nonsense and spreading misinformation, come here with some EVIDENCE and a good argument, or you know, actually consider using and studying the characters. What you are up against here is a guy who mains Marth; you're trying to tell me you know more about a character you don't even play as opposed to somebody who knows the character almost inside out? I appreciate the discussion, but you need to at least have a decent knowledge of the character first.

If you want to discuss Marth further, or be educated on him, go to the Marth boards. You will learn far more about him here - https://smashboards.com/forums/marth.416/.

It's like banging my head on a brick wall sometimes... It's not even like results don't back me up (like for example, me saying Jigglypuff is actually mid tier).

If anybody wants to reply/react/whatever about this comment, PM me. Do not discuss this any further here. This thread has enough Marth discussion, we don't need the same thing again.

Well that explains why some people think Sonic is top 3. But as much as you are a Marth main, I am both a MK and Villager. That's bad on both parties, as you are biased, I am biased. Marth is top 20 at best, and MK is right under top 10. Marth has just been possibly hovering around top 15 since that canada thing last week. Ito and leo has been doing well with MK since his nerfs. How much stuff has MK won since? Like 6 or 7? How much has marth won? 3-4. And yes, placing better than MK in most majors is good. But it's not as good as winning anything.

Marth's MU spread may be good, but it pales to MK, MK is a counterpick and mainable all in one. +2 pretty much every floaty except Mewtwo.

 

[MERPIS]

^ completely ignores detailed post.

GG's.

---

We've had a solid amount of votes so far actually. Some common trends are appearing.

And from what I can see, it seems isn't getting the expected movement like most of us thought.

I hope I haven't started anything with that...

I just got to you, jesus H no need to type so much though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Well that explains why some people think Sonic is top 3. But as much as you are a Marth main, I am both a MK and Villager. That's bad on both parties, as you are biased, I am biased. Marth is top 20 at best, and MK is right under top 10. Marth has just been possibly hovering around top 15 since that canada thing last week. Ito and leo has been doing well with MK since his nerfs. How much stuff has MK won since? Like 6 or 7? How much has marth won? 3-4. And yes, placing better than MK in most majors is good. But it's not as good as winning anything.

Marth's MU spread may be good, but it pales to MK, MK is a counterpick and mainable all in one. +2 pretty much every floaty except Mewtwo.

I mean, this was never a comparison between Marth vs Meta Knight or Villager, so...

Ok.

 

[Tikku]

these are too high
----
Too low
+

^-^

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'm thinking either next round, or the round after, that I'll reduce the voting count to 3 votes per user. Right now, all of the cast has moved into good positions, and we can then really focus on the small points for a few more rounds.

For those interested, I imagine after around 6 more rounds, we can start locking tiers. Maybe a little before then if things get really slow.

 

[QualityQ]

I'll swap a -1 for a -1 for the sake of progress. Although now it seems tier 7 may implode on itself.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

-
-
-
+
-

 

[Bowserboy3]

I am planning on updating tomorrow.

Any people thinking of voting, or changing votes, do so now.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'd like to talk about Zelda. She's clearly one of the weakest characters in the game, and likely bottom 5. With that being said, I've seen some Zelda players perform pretty decently, and her MU chart seems better than Jigglypuff's and Ganondorf's. Is this enough to warrant moving her up to tier 7 (which otherwise might end up empty)? So she'd be Low tier instead of Bottom tier.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

It's very debatable. I mean, you can have your own opinion that would differ from others(which I GREATLY value) or just try to act the same as others when it comes to rating her.

I for one, think she is higher, or at the very least the best bottom tier.
But hey, you mostly can't have an out-of-the-box opinion(probably made no sense but you get what I mean) without people bombarding you with questions and such, even when it's only small.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd keep her where she is. Take it as a sign that unlike Brawl, at least bottoms in SSB4 can occasionally put up a fight (see Jigglypuff).

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'd keep her where she is. Take it as a sign that unlike Brawl, at least bottoms in SSB4 can occasionally put up a fight (see Jigglypuff).

We need to get at least one character in tier 7 though, or else the tier list will look strange. I suppose we could merge 7 and 8 at some point (if 7 is empty), but then why bother creating a tier 8 in the first place? And if Zelda is a step above Ganondorf, Jigglypuff, 1111 Brawler and 1111 Swordsfighter, then perhaps she'd be a good candidate for bottom of tier 7 (assuming any other characters will drop to tier 7, which they might not).

 

[Zerp]

I'd personally say Zelda isn't any higher than Tier 8, because I see nothing that puts her a whole tier above the other Bottom Tier characters, her results are roughly on the same level as Jigglypuff and Ganondorf and her theory/potential isn't something I view as exceptional and I don't see it being much greater than Jigglypuff's or Ganondorf's in the long run, I just can't see her being that much better than the others. That's just what I think though.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So, what do we do then? Leave tier 7 empty for now? I mean, I suppose it's possible to jump from Low-Mid tier to Bottom tier, but skipping Low tier (or leaving Low tier empty) like that feels somewhat odd. Perhaps upvote King Dedede so he'll be tier 7? Or downvote someone in tier 6 (like Bowser Jr., Kirby, or Falco).

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So, what do we do then? Leave tier 7 empty for now? I mean, I suppose it's possible to jump from Low-Mid tier to Bottom tier, but skipping Low tier (or leaving Low tier empty) like that feels somewhat odd. Perhaps upvote King Dedede so he'll be tier 7? Or downvote someone in tier 6 (like Bowser Jr., Kirby, or Falco).

Took my vote right out if my mouth

-
-
-
+(Counter-Vote)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm still sitting on a vote and not really sure what to do with it, so... I guess I'll upvote Ness to reduce the risk of him falling out of tier 3. I'll update my post.