Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Samuelwisebaggins]

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[ShadowGuy1]

So corrin retains her upset powers and beat K9 and 6WX 2-0 (Frozen and Vivid respectively. K9 went Diddy and Sheik, and 6WX Sonic. Also this is at Olympus and both are in top 8.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If people are still thinking Ike has a character has gotten weaker in the metagame and its not just his mains largely being drawn to DLC: San just got 9th in Canada Cup. https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...ive-impressions.440784/page-120#post-21519877

All the characters that outplaced him where high/top tiers.

Its like I've said several times: Ike as a character hasn't gotten weaker at all.

Also: Marth + Cloud combo winning the tournament. And Clouds as far as the eye can see.

 

[TDK]

And Marth takes another tournament. Primary marth too.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Doesn't matter; remember, Marth's just high mid...


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Back in reality, good characters place highly in tournament, for example.

Of equal interest, at 5th, ,and all at 9th is also pretty notable. Even at 13th is pretty solid.

The diversity at tournaments this game has is amazing.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

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[ShadowGuy1]

And Marth takes another tournament. Primary marth too.

Leo used cloud vs M2K, 3-0d him to be exact.

 

[Deleted member]

Leo used cloud vs M2K, 3-0d him to be exact.

In the runback he went until last game where he decided to go to win the set overall.

 

[JayZee1700]

+1 --- He's not that bad. I'm trying really hard to get him into at least high-low to low-mid tiers, and here's my verdict:

He has good low % combo's, incredible kill power at lower %'s, and many tools such as his command grabs and high priorty moves. These strengths allow him to take full advantage of his "Bait & Punish" play style.

His drawbacks are mostly his terrible mobility, which makes sense for what he is: a big, strong hitter, but slow and vulnerable. Also, he is one of the heaviest characters, so he is combo food, making it easier to push him offstage, where he struggles the most.

Due to the fact that there's only a few players who actually main Ganondorf at top level, he can't be evaluated for his performance in a tournament setting. Maybe there just hasn't been someone who truly brings out Ganon's true strength.

Recently, the power rankings for the Korean SM4SH scene were released. They stated that YYZ, a Ganondorf main, ranked 3rd place in Korea. Clearly if in all of Korea, a Ganondorf main can be 3rd best, then there's potential for evolution in the Ganon meta.

 

[Deleted member]

+1 --- He's not that bad. I'm trying really hard to get him into at least high-low to low-mid tiers, and here's my verdict:

He has good low % combo's, incredible kill power at lower %'s, and many tools such as his command grabs and high priorty moves. These strengths allow him to take full advantage of his "Bait & Punish" play style.

His drawbacks are mostly his terrible mobility, which makes sense for what he is: a big, strong hitter, but slow and vulnerable. Also, he is one of the heaviest characters, so he is combo food, making it easier to push him offstage, where he struggles the most.

Due to the fact that there's only a few players who actually main Ganondorf at top level, he can't be evaluated for his performance in a tournament setting. Maybe there just hasn't been someone who truly brings out Ganon's true strength.

Recently, the power rankings for the Korean SM4SH scene were released. They stated that YYZ, a Ganondorf main, ranked 3rd place in Korea. Clearly if in all of Korea, a Ganondorf main can be 3rd best, then there's potential for evolution in the Ganon meta.

That's like saying that if were ranked top 3 in Alaska, then she isn't bottom tier.

Ganondorf's playstyle will never be effective at top level play: his approaches, neutral and disadvantage are all miserable. He has power and good reward off reads, but you can only feed so much off mistakes where at higher levels of play many will leave little room for them.

 

[Djmarcus44]

+1 --- He's not that bad. I'm trying really hard to get him into at least high-low to low-mid tiers, and here's my verdict:

He has good low % combo's, incredible kill power at lower %'s, and many tools such as his command grabs and high priorty moves. These strengths allow him to take full advantage of his "Bait & Punish" play style.

His drawbacks are mostly his terrible mobility, which makes sense for what he is: a big, strong hitter, but slow and vulnerable. Also, he is one of the heaviest characters, so he is combo food, making it easier to push him offstage, where he struggles the most.

Due to the fact that there's only a few players who actually main Ganondorf at top level, he can't be evaluated for his performance in a tournament setting. Maybe there just hasn't been someone who truly brings out Ganon's true strength.

Recently, the power rankings for the Korean SM4SH scene were released. They stated that YYZ, a Ganondorf main, ranked 3rd place in Korea. Clearly if in all of Korea, a Ganondorf main can be 3rd best, then there's potential for evolution in the Ganon meta.

Ganondorf isn't a terrible character, but he is one of the worst characters in the game. Although his advantage state is good, his struggles in neutral and disadvantage give him one of the worst matchup spreads in the game. In neutral, his poor mobility, lack of moves that can force approaches, poor OOS, and slow dash to shield make his neutral one of the worst in the game. While Ganondorf has strong tilts, his weakness against projectile zoning makes it hard for him to get in a position to use those tilts. In disadvantage, his poor recovery, substandard landing options and, susceptibility to combos give him one of the worst disadvantage states in the game. While he is heavy, his tall frame, somewhat fast fall speed, and lack of fast moves to get out of combo makes it easy to rack up damage on him.

While Ganondorf, has some representation at state level and in countries with smaller smash 4 scenes, his lack of results at somewhat large tournaments is disappointing relative to the size of his playerbase and number of players using him at tournaments. He has yet to get top 16 in a tournament of more than 80 people in the past few weeks, and his presence has been nonexistent at large tournaments over the past few months. Even Mii Gunner, a character with one of the two smallest playbases in the game, and few dedicated mains at the top level, has gotten a top 16 placement in a tournament with over 80 people in the past few weeks and tied for 5th in a 520+ player regional in the past 2 months. While having a player who is top 3 in Korea is good, Korea isn't a very big tournament scene, and they don't have proven players on the international level. While there is potential for Ganondorf's meta to evolve, his huge weaknesses outweigh his strengths and place him below most of the cast on the tier list.

 

[Y2Kay]

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[Andymatronic]

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[TDK]

+1 --- He's not that bad. I'm trying really hard to get him into at least high-low to low-mid tiers, and here's my verdict:

He has good low % combo's, incredible kill power at lower %'s, and many tools such as his command grabs and high priorty moves. These strengths allow him to take full advantage of his "Bait & Punish" play style.

His drawbacks are mostly his terrible mobility, which makes sense for what he is: a big, strong hitter, but slow and vulnerable. Also, he is one of the heaviest characters, so he is combo food, making it easier to push him offstage, where he struggles the most.

Due to the fact that there's only a few players who actually main Ganondorf at top level, he can't be evaluated for his performance in a tournament setting. Maybe there just hasn't been someone who truly brings out Ganon's true strength.

Recently, the power rankings for the Korean SM4SH scene were released. They stated that YYZ, a Ganondorf main, ranked 3rd place in Korea. Clearly if in all of Korea, a Ganondorf main can be 3rd best, then there's potential for evolution in the Ganon meta.

Adom is (I think) #1 in Israel with Ganon too. However, neither South Korea nor Isreal are particularly amazing regions when compared to the rest of the world. Also, in this game, what do all the good characters have:

A) Excellent Mobility and Burst mobility, safe options or slightly lower mobility but an extremely powerful defensive or zoning game

B) Excellent Conversion options and "get off me" options

C) A "good" recovery - usually long and non-linear but sometimes just long.

Ganon Having conversions is debatable, but the rest is bad. Awful mobility and can't zone, has no "get off me" options whatsoever so if he gets hit he's going for a ride, arguably the second-worst recovery in the game, and just nothing good to work with. It doesn't matter if you only need 4-5 hits to end your opponent's stock if you should never be getting those hits unless your opponent screws up. Ganon as a character relies too much on your opponent's mistakes to ever be better than bottom tier - even if his power is really good.

 

[JayZee1700]

Adom is (I think) #1 in Israel with Ganon too. However, neither South Korea nor Isreal are particularly amazing regions when compared to the rest of the world. Also, in this game, what do all the good characters have:

A) Excellent Mobility and Burst mobility, safe options or slightly lower mobility but an extremely powerful defensive or zoning game

B) Excellent Conversion options and "get off me" options

C) A "good" recovery - usually long and non-linear but sometimes just long.

Ganon Having conversions is debatable, but the rest is bad. Awful mobility and can't zone, has no "get off me" options whatsoever so if he gets hit he's going for a ride, arguably the second-worst recovery in the game, and just nothing good to work with. It doesn't matter if you only need 4-5 hits to end your opponent's stock if you should never be getting those hits unless your opponent screws up. Ganon as a character relies too much on your opponent's mistakes to ever be better than bottom tier - even if his power is really good.

I'm not saying that he is top-tier worthy, but that he isn't bad enough to be the absolute worst. Obviously he's a bottom tier for a reason, so I took the challenge to try and make him better. I explained what I found to be great, and what I found to be...well....trash. As much as I'd love to see Ganon up with the mid-tiers, it will never happen. I'd just like to see him in the lower-mid-tiers. Again, he's not good, but he's not completely hopeless.

 

[MasterWarlord]

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[Smady]

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[Munomario777]

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[Frihetsanka]

I replaced my Villager upvote with a Toon Link upvote and my Meta Knight upvote with a Duck Hunt upvote.

Some comments about votes thus far (assuming I've counted correctly). It looks like tier 1 will, indeed, be the tier for the current top 10 characters (with Mewtwo and Zero Suit Samus moving up this round). Tier 2 currently has Villager, Meta Knight, Pikachu (!) and Marth, with Toon Link, Ryu, and Mega Man just barely not making it. No character is currently moving down from tier 3 or tier 4.

Link is really, really close to moving up to tier 4. While I think he might potentially be tier 4, I think we should wait for some more results before we move him up. Still, if people feel that his current results are good enough to warrant tier 4, then go ahead. Pac-Man is close to moving down to tier 6 (again), and Duck Hunt is really close as well. Duck Hunt is an interesting case, since the character gets pretty decent results in Japan, but not super-great (he's no Villager or Mega Man). I personally think he's more of a tier 5 than tier 6 character, closer to Shulk and Mr. Game & Watch than Dr. Mario and Kirby. Decent, but not great.

Palutena is moving back up to tier 5. Bold prediction: She'll move back to tier 6 at least once in the next 2 weeks.

Jigglypuff, King Dedede, and Zelda seem likely to move down to tier 8, while Ganondorf has a shot at moving up to tier 7 (though he probably won't). I'm not convinced Zelda belongs there, though. Low tier, certainly, but at the absolute bottom?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Pretty sure I didn't vote this round
+1(So she doesn't fall next to Ganondorf)

 

[TDK]

I'll use my 5th vote as a -1

 

[Ziodyne 21]

That's like saying that if were ranked top 3 in Alaska, then she isn't bottom tier.

Ganondorf's playstyle will never be effective at top level play: his approaches, neutral and disadvantage are all miserable. He has power and good reward off reads, but you can only feed so much off mistakes where at higher levels of play many will leave little room for them.

Also do not forget Gannon's MU vs the increasingly prevalent is basically vs level of sheer hopelessness for him, which would basically kill his potential viability regardless of his many other flaws

 

[Stiga]

HOW IS JIGGS THAT HIGH AND GANON THAT LOW?!

 

[Bowserboy3]

HOW IS JIGGS THAT HIGH AND GANON THAT LOW?!

It's just how the characters moved in the last voting period. As of now, tiers are not official, and neither are individual placements, so Jigglypuff can still move down, for example. It just so happens that Ganondorf moved down last time, and Jigglypuff didn't.

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I will also update tomorrow.

Provided I remember of course...

 

[Stiga]

It's just how the characters moved in the last voting period. As of now, tiers are not official, and neither are individual placements, so Jigglypuff can still move down, for example. It just so happens that Ganondorf moved down last time, and Jigglypuff didn't.

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I will also update tomorrow.

Provided I remember of course...

Oh ok

 

[Dusk Pit]

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[Kirby Dragons]

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Adding +.

 

[Deleted member]

Bowserboy3

Update, famalam

 

[Frihetsanka]

I decided to recount some votes, and two characters in particular have some interesting patterns. Marth has 6 upvotes (!), but he's still not moving up since he has 4 downvotes. Mega Man has 5 upvotes and 4 downvotes, thus not moving up either. I would like to see why people don't think Mega Man deserves to be tier 2, since Kameme makes Mega Man look like a clear top 15 character.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

+1 To fill tier 2 with the characters that deserve it the most (besides Villager, he's already moving up easily).
+1 She's been on the rise lately. Besides her sub par mobility and her atrocious Meta Knight matchup, she has all the tools and "poTENshul" needed to be a major threat right now and especially in the future, and tier 3 fits her better than tier 4.
+1 For some reason, Palutena is the one character people downvote based on theory over her great results. Make up your minds, people!

Now that there's another tier at the bottom, I'm comfortable with Pac-Man moving down. I was nervous before when he was going to move to the second lowest tier, but as long as Jigglypuff and a couple others move down to tier 8 with Ganon, I'm fine with Pac-Man being tier 6.

EDIT: Replaced Villager upvote with Marth upvote.

Replaced my Villager upvote with a Marth upvote, because Villager's already moving up easily, and for some reason people are hesitant to move Marth up when he clearly deserves it (like Palutena, people focus on his "mediocre theory" over his results).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I decided to recount some votes, and two characters in particular have some interesting patterns. Marth has 6 upvotes (!), but he's still not moving up since he has 4 downvotes. Mega Man has 5 upvotes and 4 downvotes, thus not moving up either. I would like to see why people don't think Mega Man deserves to be tier 2, since Kameme makes Mega Man look like a clear top 15 character.

For my personal vote on MegaMan: like I said before I don't think Japanese results can fit 1:1 with NA results. Their metagame is quite clearly different when you start comparing the general layout of tiers in NA compared to over there. Obviously some overlap, but some characters can end up radically different.

To me moving up Villager is even more baffling: Ranai doesn't play much anymore, and Villager has arguably even less top level rep in NA than MegaMan does. MegaMan at least has Scatt when he shows up. Villager in NA has... a few mid level to lower end high level mains that occasionally take a name here or there. He should not be moving up, he hasn't earned it.

I think the 4BR is incorrect in using Japanese results/opinions in their tier list, and I won't be doing the same myself. Keep it apples to apples, not apples to apple pears. (Which is an amazing fruit btw as a random side note, everyone should have one at some point).

 

[Frihetsanka]

For my personal vote on MegaMan: like I said before I don't think Japanese results can fit 1:1 with NA results. Their metagame is quite clearly different when you start comparing the general layout of tiers in NA compared to over there. Obviously some overlap, but some characters can end up radically different.

Where does it say that this is an NA tier list, though? The thread curator is European, and a lot of people voting are European as well. I see very little reason to disregard Japanese results, especially since several Japanese players have proven that they are top level players. Many people consider Kameme a top 10 player, which helps support the case that Mega Man is top 15.

I think all relevant results should be considered. Right now, the US and Japan are obviously the strongest regions, but other regions might provide relevant data as well. If they were playing with significantly different rules (such as time instead of stock, or if they were still playing on patch 1.1.4 or something like that), then the tier lists should be kept separate. For now, I see very little reason to disregard Japanese results.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I never said Japan wasn't a top level region, or didn't have top level players. I'm saying their metagame, and who they have strats against and who they don't have strats against are too different. That is extremely plainly obvious by comparing a typical NA tier list with a typical Japanese list. They have some different rules for their tournaments which can affect results as well (Some amount of Bo1 exists. Sometimes just for pools stuff or whatnot but end of the day, Bo1 favours characters with certain gimmicks like Wario or Lucario and can hurt characters that might need a game to figure out which playstyle their opponent is going to use, like anyone trying to face a Sonic who can be played in a lot of different ways).

EU is overall close enough to NA that I do consider their results, but I do consider them lessor. Like on par with weaker regions of the US. Australia I... barely count. Pretty darn weak region, weird character metagame because of it. SA/Caribbean/Middle East I also don't count, far too weak overall (yes I'm sure they have a few individual players who are high level but the region as a whole makes it very much "big fish in small pond" syndrome)

Just because the creator doesn't say its NA, doesn't mean I can't decide my own criteria for how I look at characters. Japan's results are not equivalent to the rest of the world, and thus using their results is inaccurate. You asked why, there is your answer. Not budging from it.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3

Update, famalam

Sheesh, gimme some chance!

It's not like I forgot or anything...

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UPDATING...

 

[Frihetsanka]

The Bo1 aspect is a good point. Perhaps a compromise would be for you to disregard results as in looking at placings, but still paying attention to Japan by watching some of their games? Watch some games with the best Duck Hunt players against other notable players, and some games with Kameme and Ranai, and use those matches to help draw a conclusion.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do watch some of their stuff to be sure (note me not voting on DHD one way or the other instead of just down). But at the end of the day, results matter a lot for a tier list. And if I'm not considering that chunk of results... MegaMan drops and Villager nearly falls off the face of a cliff.

 

[QualityQ]

I think the 4BR is incorrect in using Japanese results/opinions in their tier list, and I won't be doing the same myself. Keep it apples to apples, not apples to apple pears.
(yes I'm sure they have a few individual players who are high level but the region as a whole makes it very much "big fish in small pond" syndrome)

Note that, by this logic, if Dabuz only played in Japan and Ranai only played in the USA, Villager and Rosalina would effectively be reversed on your tier list.

Also, MKLeo was first in Canada Cup 2016. Beating Ally and m2king.. who have beaten countless american players. And a number of Japan players have done well in high-level NA tournaments. Are you saying when Japan players do well in an NA tournament that.. their results don't count?

I don't think you can use best-of-1's in groups to justify ignoring Japan results entirely, although you are free to do so.

 

[TDK]

Ignoring Japanese results is like flipping a coin, calling heads, and going "oh, it's tails, but since tails isn't heads I'll just not count this."

 

[Nidtendofreak]

When a Japanese player does well in a NA tournament, its NA rules and NA metagame. Those aren't Japanese results as in Japanese tournaments. Pretty obvious.

Rosalina and Villager wouldn't be flipped, as Rosalina in NA has a bit more rep outside of Villager than Villager does outside of Ranai. But yes Rosalina would be lower and Villager would be higher. Same would happen to say, idk Ryu if Zero and Trela swapped mains. Not surprising, pretty obvious.

MKLeo was first in Canada Cup yes. And Mexico is in NA so I have no clue what your point was there. Like at all. Its a NA player winning a NA tournament. Please don't tell me you though Mexico was SA.

And no, its not two sides of the same coin. Extremely different. Tournaments aren't two-possible-outcomes situations with no outside influences effecting results.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I could somewhat understand people not counting results of a different region if the versions were all different; a-la Melee NTSC vs PAL.

However, we are all playing on exactly the same version of exactly the same game. We're all players playing the same game. It's not like, players in NA being able to Waveshine Marth in Melee, but I'm sat here laughing in a PAL region where Marth doesn't get Waveshined.

Results are indicative of a character's skill as much as they are a players. ANYTHING a Japanese player can do with a character, any player in any other part of the world can do, and vice versa.

I can understand the arguement of "Well Villager doesn't have any real rep outside of Japan". Not saying you are doing, but say, totally dismissing Villager's rep just because they are Japanese, for example, is totally backwards. Just my two cents.

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Also, sorry about the delay; had to get back home for something. Just sorting the ordering out. I'll leave a new post when it's updated.