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Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

Ethan7

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+:4diddy: he still has to rise to the highest tier.
+:rosalina:she is top tier as well.
+:4tlink: high tier, top 15.
+:4sonic: he is also top tier.
+:4ryu: he is definitely better than mid-tier.

It will take a while to get the tier list formed. I'm trying to get the top tiers and high tiers up and then will probably moves down the low and bottom tiers.
 

Frihetsanka

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I decide to count the votes and divide them into brackets. Credits to MarioManTAW for coming up with the concept of brackets. If I made a mistake somewhere, please inform me and I'll correct it.

Moving up to high: [4:4diddy:][3:4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta::rosalina::4marth::4zss::4cloud::4fox::4villager:]
High-mid [1:4mario::4pit::4mewtwo::4ness::4corrinf:][0:4megaman::4lucario::4darkpit::4metaknight:][-1:4yoshi::4lucas:]

Moving up to High-mid: [8:4ryu:][7:4pikachu:][6:4lucina:][5:4tlink:][3:4greninja::4robinf::4falcon::4peach:]
Moving down to Mid: [-3:4myfriends:]

Mid: [1:4rob::4wiifit::4link::4shulk:][0:4olimar::4bowser::4dk::4duckhunt::4luigi::4gaw::4samus::4wario2::4feroy::4miigun:[-1:4bowserjr::4pacman::4littlemac::4miibrawl:][-2:4miisword::4charizard::4kirby::4drmario::4palutena::4dedede:]

Moving down to Low-mid: [-8:4ganondorf:][-5:4zelda:]
Low-mid[2:4falco:][-2:4jigglypuff:]
 
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D

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What's with all the Palu downvotes? Do you guys really want her to fall to bottom tier?
 

Wintermelon43

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The weird thing about Palutena is that she got as many down votes as Ganon, despite Ganon being the worst non-Mii character and Palutena being low mid
 

Bowserboy3

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Like I said in my vote for this round, Ganon should really have gone down last time. He was going down with Puff and Falco, right up until the last minute, when a surge of random Ganon upvotes came in.

Sure, I could perhaps maybe see an argument if these votes were for Ganon in bottom tier, moving to low tier (even then it would still be highly debatable), but these were votes essentially saying Ganon is higher than Mid Tier.

Like, what reasons does he have to even be close to there? No real tournament rep. No results. The biggest reason I feel for his lower placement, are some horrendously poor matchups, and a poor matchup spread overall. Sure, he might be able to hit you once or twice, and you can be killed by the next attack, but when he can't actually approach half of the cast to put this to good use, and said moves are quite slow and sluggish, that doesn't make much of an impact in competitive play.

But, I digress. As long as no more upvotes come, he should be going down.
 
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D

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Ganondorf is a pretty miserable character, I don't think he has any feasible chance of making it out of bottom 3 in this game's lifespan. He'd probably be the worst in the game if it weren't for :4jigglypuff:or :4dedede: existing.

He does have players, the point is none of them are able to travel and when they do get the chance to make it to a big event they drown (i.e. Ray Kalm's 65th placing at GOML).

On the topic of his matchups, vs. :4bayonetta: is still pretty much feasibly unwinnable. it's kinda hilarious.
 

Bowserboy3

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I decide to count the votes and divide them into brackets. Credits to MarioManTAW for coming up with the concept of brackets. If I made a mistake somewhere, please inform me and I'll correct it.

Moving up to high: [4:4diddy:][3:4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta::rosalina:]
High-mid [2:4fox::4zss::4villager:][1:4mario::4pit::4cloud::4mewtwo::4marth::4megaman::4ness:][0:4corrinf::4lucario::4darkpit::4metaknight:][-1:4yoshi::4lucas:][-2:4myfriends:]

Moving up to High-mid: [7:4ryu:][6:4pikachu::4tlink:][4:4lucina:][3:4greninja::4robinf::4falcon:]

Mid: [2:4peach:][1:4rob::4olimar::4wiifit:][0:4bowser::4dk::4duckhunt::4littlemac::4link::4luigi::4gaw::4samus::4shulk::4wario2::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:[-1:4drmario::4bowserjr::4pacman::4kirby::4charizard:][-2:4feroy:]

Moving down to Low-mid: [-5:4ganondorf:][-4:4zelda:][-3:4palutena::4dedede:]
Low-mid[1:4falco:][-1:4jigglypuff:]
Something else I just want to point out to everybody voting, is that remember, nothing is set in stone as of yet.

What I mean by that is, lets take the above post as an example. It says things like "Moving down to Low-mid", and "Moving up to High-mid" etc.

If you don't believe that the next tier up is "High-mid", for example, that's totally fine. If you think the next tier up after Mid is simply High Tier, then you are allowed to think that and vote on that basis the same as Frihetsanka Frihetsanka for example, believes that the next tier is "High-mid". In the same vein, you may think the tier below Mid is simply Low tier, and Low-mid doesn't exist. This is totally fine.

There are no tiers set in stone. Don't feel you have to vote based on "but then we will have lots of tiers", sort of thing. When we have something resembling a real list later on, we will decide on the names/numbering of the tiers. There's no "there has to be X amount of tiers". The point of this list is to let it naturally pan out itself anyway.

---

Thanks for that post though, Frihetsanka Frihetsanka . It allowed me to explain something that has been troubling me for a while now.
 
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Wintermelon43

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I don't see how Puff is better than Ganondorf in any stretch of the imagination.

The timing of this video is amazing though. Prettymuch explains all that is wrong with Jigglypuff.

And I don't see how Ganon can be better than Puff in any stretch of imagination. Ganon loses pretty much every matchup except like, Zelda, 1111 Brawler, and from what I've heard Dr. Mario (Why, I have no idea), and those three are even anyway. And he gets destroyed by every single top tier. Way worse than Jigglypuff lol.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Something else I just want to point out to everybody voting, is that remember, nothing is set in stone as of yet.

What I mean by that is, lets take the above post as an example. It says things like "Moving down to Low-mid", and "Moving up to High-mid" etc.

If you don't believe that the next tier up is "High-mid", for example, that's totally fine. If you think the next tier up after Mid is simply High Tier, then you are allowed to think that and vote on that basis the same as Frihetsanka Frihetsanka for example, believes that the next tier is "High-mid". In the same vein, you may think the tier below Mid is simply Low tier, and Low-mid doesn't exist. This is totally fine.
While I understand where you're coming from, I think it'd be good to have some common idea what the different tiers are, or else we risk people counter-voting each other based on different perception of tiers. Later on we could split up the tiers more, or combine them, if we wish, but until then, I think keeping it simple would be a good idea. So I will continue to call it "high-mid tier", "high tier", and such. People are free to disagree if they wish, of course.

So, right now, I think we should keep it simple.

Top
High
High-mid
Mid
Low-mid
Low
Bottom (not sure if it's really needed)
 
D

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this Ganon/Puff argument is semantics, both are jokes of characters anyway and it's like trying to compare rusted bronze to scrap metal
 

Frihetsanka

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this Ganon/Puff argument is semantics, both are jokes of characters anyway and it's like trying to compare rusted bronze to scrap metal
Not to mention that both will likely end up in low/bottom tier anyway. We can discuss who is worse when we're actually ordering within tiers, which will take a while anyway.
 

Bowserboy3

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And I don't see how Ganon can be better than Puff in any stretch of imagination. Ganon loses pretty much every matchup except like, Zelda, 1111 Brawler, and from what I've heard Dr. Mario (Why, I have no idea), and those three are even anyway. And he gets destroyed by every single top tier. Way worse than Jigglypuff lol.
Elaborate on what matchups Jigglypuff even comes close to winning then. Also, try and prove how Jigglypuff fares better in a metagame more focused on defensive play, when she's the lightest character in the game, has the weakest shield, and has no reliable move to get opponents off of her.

While Ganon isn't much better than Jigglypuff in these areas, he has far better survivability, and can shrug foes off better.

Both characters are still relatively poor, but neither realistically has enough to prove them to be way better or "way worse" than the other.

While I understand where you're coming from, I think it'd be good to have some common idea what the different tiers are, or else we risk people counter-voting each other based on different perception of tiers. Later on we could split up the tiers more, or combine them, if we wish, but until then, I think keeping it simple would be a good idea. So I will continue to call it "high-mid tier", "high tier", and such. People are free to disagree if they wish, of course.

So, right now, I think we should keep it simple.

Top
High
High-mid
Mid
Low-mid
Low
Bottom (not sure if it's really needed)
The point it, there are theoretically, no tiers yet. The list is meant to be open to perception for each person. I can assure you the list will pan out on it's own despite this lack of actual tiers.

I'm not saying you can't call the tiers what you like, but remember that others may have different opinions on how the tiering system and vote based on that. It's totally fine. When we get around to the actual tiering of characters, if things look off, we sort it then. Right now, there are no rules on the tiering.
 
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TDK

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Elaborate on what matchups Jigglypuff even comes close to winning then. Also, try and prove how Jigglypuff fares better in a metagame more focused on defensive play, when she's the lightest character in the game, has the weakest shield, and has no reliable move to get opponents off of her.
:rosalina: is marginally better for Puff than for Ganon, because Ganon can't land at all vs her while Puff is at least notoriously hard to juggle.
 

Bowserboy3

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:rosalina: is marginally better for Puff than for Ganon, because Ganon can't land at all vs her while Puff is at least notoriously hard to juggle.
To be fair, I did say "winning". Puff doesn't beat Rosalina, but merely does slightly better than Ganondorf. Even then, Ganondorf fares better against Cloud for example, albeit still marginally. At the very least, Ganondorf has a much easier time landing a hit on Cloud; Puff's range makes this matchup an absolute chore. Then you have a slew of other less notable characters that he does slightly better at than Puff, such as Bowser, Dedede, Ike etc.

All in all, like ←/feel. said, it's still very minor over which character theoretically is better. For me, the fact that Ganon has a far better time adapting to the mechanics and meta of Smash 4 (things like Rage, defensive play, shield breaks etc) leads me to believe that Ganon is still a little more notable than Puff. That, and he has better overall results than her (again, marginally).

I still don't think a "Puff" tier is necessary though. No character is bad enough in this game to be in their own tier. I vomit a little every time I see a tier list with Puff in her own tier.
 
D

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>Ganon has better results

Leet's run at Shine is better than literally anything Ganondorf has done.
 

Bowserboy3

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>Ganon has better results

Leet's run at Shine is better than literally anything Ganondorf has done.
One result isn't enough to accurately prove anything. As many players have stated before (in fact, many of you will remember Nairo himself coming here and stating it) that any character/player can perform well once, and it's down to a factor of what players you meet in tournament, and what characters you are put against. What matters most is consistency, which is an area Ganondorf is at the very least, shown to be better than Jigglypuff.

What's more, over the whole lifespan, Ganondorf has pulled in at least 250 more Top 16 results than Jigglypuff (across all recorded tournaments). In fact, if you want to narrow it down even further to just 1.1.6, Ganondorf still has double of Jigglypuff's top 16 results in this patch.

You can call Smashboards's results tracker unreliable as much as you want, but with a difference of over 250, I think you get the gist.

That said, I mention the "consistency", when in reality, Puff and Ganon consistency <<<<<<<< almost everybody else's consistency. Consistent isn't exactly the best word to describe characters on the lower end of the spectrum, I realise.

Overall, in my opinion there are at least 3 or 4 characters in this game that don't stand out well enough/lack enough results/rep etc, that it's impossible to say that any one of them is the clear worst in the game. It's strikingly similar near the top; the characters near the top are so tight in skill and usage, that it's almost impossible to decide who is the clear best. These two points alone show that Smash 4's overall balance is a lot better than past games in the series (as if it wasn't known well enough already).

---

To change the topic a little, it's only been a couple of days and we've gotten a decent amount of results. There are a few trends starting to show, which is good.

Keep the votes coming!
 
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D

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One result isn't enough to accurately prove anything. As many players have stated before (in fact, many of you will remember Nairo himself coming here and stating it) that any character/player can perform well once, and it's down to a factor of what players you meet in tournament, and what characters you are put against. What matters most is consistency, which is an area Ganondorf is at the very least, shown to be better than Jigglypuff.

What's more, over the whole lifespan, Ganondorf has pulled in at least 250 more Top 16 results than Jigglypuff (across all recorded tournaments). In fact, if you want to narrow it down even further to just 1.1.6, Ganondorf still has double of Jigglypuff's top 16 results in this patch.

You can call Smashboards's results tracker unreliable as much as you want, but with a difference of over 250, I think you get the gist.

That said, I mention the "consistency", when in reality, Puff and Ganon consistency <<<<<<<< almost everybody else's consistency. Consistent isn't exactly the best word to describe characters on the lower end of the spectrum, I realise.

Overall, in my opinion there are at least 3 or 4 characters in this game that don't stand out well enough/lack enough results/rep etc, that it's impossible to say that any one of them is the clear worst in the game. It's strikingly similar near the top; the characters near the top are so tight in skill and usage, that it's almost impossible to decide who is the clear best. These two points alone show that Smash 4's overall balance is a lot better than past games in the series.

---

To change the topic a little, it's only been a couple of days and we've gotten a decent amount of results. There are a few trends starting to show, which is good.

Keep the votes coming!
When it's considering its at high levels of play, the most important one for gauging the viability of characters it sorta is. Your points are valid so I guess it's whatever.
 

ShadowGuy1

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We also have to remember Taheita lost to a Ganon, what was a notable player RDR7 or any puff has beaten? Also I believe the Ganon was called Gugnir or something like that. Both are still the clear bottom 2 imho(not including miis) and this debate should only spark when we are voting on individual characters within the tiers.

*Drops Mic*
 
D

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We also have to remember Taheita lost to a Ganon, what was a notable player RDR7 or any puff has beaten? Also I believe the Ganon was called Gugnir or something like that. Both are still the clear bottom 2 imho(not including miis) and this debate should only spark when we are voting on individual characters within the tiers.

*Drops Mic*
RDR7 has beaten Rango in the past. He also has beaten Dabuz in friendlies before (but it was wifi, riiiiiip)
 

FamilyTeam

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I honestly do not feel comfortable voting so early on (which is why I've only been lurking), but I guess I will give it a shot.
:4lucina:+
:4kirby:-
:4charizard:-
 

Bowserboy3

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I honestly do not feel comfortable voting so early on (which is why I've only been lurking), but I guess I will give it a shot.
:4lucina:+
:4kirby:-
:4charizard:-
You can vote for 5 characters if you like; the limit isn't 3 just yet.

Of course, you don't have to vote for 5. It's fine if you want to vote for just 3.

it just means we can update a little quicker
 
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Frihetsanka

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it just means we can update a little quicker
Not if he votes weirdly, such as downvoting Cloud or upvoting Ganondorf or something like that. Some people do that, for some reason. It happened last round, which is why we're still voting on Ganondorf for low-mid tier instead of just low tier. On the up side, he's pretty close to moving two tiers this round, so with a few more votes he'll go down to low tier. Jigglypuff is even closer to low tier and just needs a couple more votes.
 

WolfmanDeerek

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:4cloud:+
:4peach:+
:4pikachu:+
:4ryu:+
:4shulk:+

I think down the line the meta game of Shulk will keep evolving due to the Monado arts as other meta games sorta level off. I won't be surprised at all if he slowly climbs the latter to the upper end of high mid tier just due to the different buffs and how they can change on the fly. I could be wrong, though. I also thought Ganondorf would have been designed with more love than he received in Brawl...
 
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Browny

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Puff is terrible but I remain adamant that most people aren't playing her right.

I went puff at Evo (placing the same as hbox) and just about everyone noticed that my SHAD-nair playstyle was way different to what they were used to and really hard to deal with.

Approaching with an invincible dodge into a frame 6, 25-frame lasting attack that can KO lasting literally long enough to fade in and out, catching rolls and being safe on shield, is really good and a lot of characters can't deal with it. Especially when they are on the edge, doing that covers every single option (unless the character has a powerful, invincible upb like G&W to regrab the edge with) and the only way jiggs loses is with a trade but if you are trading jiggs nair when you are on the edge, you're probably going to die.

I don't care if people call me arrogant, I did really well in USA with her and can beat just about anyone in my state with her with that simple, highly obnoxious playstyle. Watching Zero play jiggs was painful. I don't expect him to be good with her but not shad'ing into nair is the equivalent of playing zss and not using nair to approach with, literally refusing to use their one good approach tool which actually happens to be REALLY good.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Assuming I've counted correctly, the following characters are 1 or 2 votes away from moving up:

To high tier from high-mid:[1:4mario::4pit::4mewtwo::4megaman::4ness::4corrinf:]
To high tier from mid: :4ryu: (2 votes needed, or else he'll just move to high-mid)
To high-mid from mid: [1:4rob::4olimar::4wiifit::4link::4shulk:]


Characters 1-2 votes away from moving down:
To low-mid from mid: [-1:4bowserjr::4pacman::4littlemac::4miibrawl:][-2:4miisword::4charizard::4kirby::4drmario::4palutena::4dedede:]
To low from mid: :4ganondorf: (2 votes, or else he'll just move to low-mid)
To low from low-mid: :4jigglypuff: (1 more downvote)

Lots of characters really close to moving right now, lots of characters that have already moved. I take it you'll probably update soon, Bowserboy3 Bowserboy3 ?
 
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