Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Wintermelon43]

OK then, Wintermelon43 , so you're saying that we aren't willing to listen to your opinions. No, what has happened is, we have listened to your opinion (on multiple occasion now), and not only listened to it, but given you fact, data, and result as to why this opinion is incorrect. We don't just see your opinion and instantly say "nope, wrong - disregard". We have to listen to your opinion to give solid counter arguments. This is how a basic discussion works, you know.

The fact of the matter, Wintermelon, is that you are completely disregarding and refusing to believe what makes a character good, as well as refusing to take into account outright facts. It completely boggles my mind how you can stand in the face of Marth's results, representation, MU spread and "theory" and call them all bad, or disregard them. You harp on about MU spreads and "theory" as if they are bad, or against Marth, when in reality, Marth's MU spread and theory are quite strong.

As far as MU's go, with top tiers, Marth struggles with just a mere two of them (being Sheik and Sonic). These MU's are far from losing mind, as Marth's multiple players have proven on multiple occasion that these MU's are do-able (essentially, they've won many a time, despite the MU being bad). With the rest of the top tiers, Marth goes even. With a few of the top tiers, Marth has the ability to pose a threat to them, being Cloud, Mario and Rosalina. A character with this kind of MU spreads with the top tiers is not a mid tier character; a mid tier character would have no real advantages against the top tiers, and have more losing MU's. A character that fits this bill is a character like DK, Luigi etc.

Theory is a buzzword, and a very bad thing to use when trying to rank a character. It's something I try to refrain from using when ranking a character. If we used theory as a basis for ranking characters, Ryu would be top tier (this is likely the reason Ryu was considered top 5 for a lot of the first 6 months of his release), but that aside, Marth's theory is still good. Marth has one tool that instantly bolsters his theory right up, and that tool alone is his Jab 1. This move is essentially Diddy's Down Tilt, but has more range, is disjointed, leads into more moves, and also acts as an anti-air. The reason this move works so well in his theory is because Marth's mobility is strong, as well as him having some great spacing moves in Down Tilt, Forward Tilt and Neutral Air, allowing him to safely force the opponents hand to make use of this Jab 1. Marth is also one of the best edgeguarders and ledge trappers in the entire game, and this only works hand in hand with his spacing game; force and push somebody to the ledge, and keep them there. If Marth could not do this, his theory would be lacklustre, and your point about theory would hold a little weight, but it just doesn't.

I'm not interested in your opinion anymore; at this point you're essentially a troll, and you make it un-fun to be here. It would be best for me if I just block you from here on out, which is what I will be doing. I'll be counting your votes for this round, but as of next round, I don't expect to see you anywhere around these boards (I've never actually blocked anybody before, so I'm unsure whether I will even see any more posts from you, I'd prefer if I didn't), and if I am somehow able to see your posts, I won't be acknowledging them, wherever it may be. I'm friends with you on Discord, and talking about general stuff or other games is absolutely fine, and don't want this to harm that, but the topic of Smash, it's best for me to just blank you.

Sorry it's had to come to this, but in a sense, I'm supposed to be running this, and I can't let you rile me up like this every time. This is for the best.

(Edit: it seems I can't see Wintermelon43's posts, so remember than when tallying votes in the future Frihetsanka )

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As a way to try and push things back to normal, it seems would be going up without my up vote anyway, so I changed it to a upvote/countervote.

I'm not a troll, but sorry if I was going to far

Edit:Wait nvm I just realized you meant you were blocking me, I thought you meant you wouldn't be counting my votes. You won't even see this anyway

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm not interested in your opinion anymore; at this point you're essentially a troll, and you make it un-fun to be here. It would be best for me if I just block you from here on out, which is what I will be doing. I'll be counting your votes for this round, but as of next round, I don't expect to see you anywhere around these boards (I've never actually blocked anybody before, so I'm unsure whether I will even see any more posts from you, I'd prefer if I didn't), and if I am somehow able to see your posts, I won't be acknowledging them, wherever it may be.

I disagree with this solution. I don't think it's clear that Wintermelon43 is deliberately trolling, and there have been some people who have made worse votes than he did. It seems to me that he's getting punished for trying to explain his votes, and doing so somewhat awkwardly, while others get away with worse votes by simply not explaining them.

So, I'd like for you to unblock Wintermelon43 and still count his votes. If not, then I'd like to know if you're still counting his votes this round.

He wrote this:

I'm not a troll, but sorry if I was going to far

Edit:Wait nvm I just realized you meant you were blocking me, I thought you meant you wouldn't be counting my votes. You won't even see this anyway

 

[Routa]

I'm not a troll, but sorry if I was going to far

Edit:Wait nvm I just realized you meant you were blocking me, I thought you meant you wouldn't be counting my votes. You won't even see this anyway

Well he cant see your votes either so there is that.

Anyways about Samus. She has been doing fine in each region unlike Palutena and Doc. There isn't much special to say about her. Many of us think that she does decently enough to be in a same tier as the likes of Mac and Shulk.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I disagree with this solution. I don't think it's clear that Wintermelon43 is deliberately trolling, and there have been some people who have made worse votes than he did. It seems to me that he's getting punished for trying to explain his votes, and doing so somewhat awkwardly, while others get away with worse votes by simply not explaining them.

Just so all are aware, me and Wintermelon43 talked it over and we're both good now. He's more than welcome to continue voting here, and I will be counting his votes.

Both of us were relatively in the wrong at one point or another; both of us were pretty angry coming off of something else, so that didn't help. But I acted irrationally, so for that, I apologise to all, and sorry for any confusion, and I truly hope you'll all continue to vote normally.

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So back to normality, I really don't think in particular really deserves to go down. You can see my post here to see my reasonings - https://smashboards.com/threads/new...nitial-movements.441533/page-14#post-21508908

 

[Frihetsanka]

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Are you taking Japanese results into account? Kameme (formerly known as Kamemushi) has proven that Mega Man is one of the best high tiers in the game, with a lot of potential. It's not only Japan, he got 2rd place at EVO 2016. I see little reason for Mega Man not to be in tier 2.

Duck Hunt has gotten some pretty decent results in Japan as well. When played by skilled players Duck Hunt is actually pretty decent.

Why downvote Mewtwo? Do you not think Mewtwo is top 10?

We've just had a discussion about Marth, so... Why downvote?

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

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Might switch ganon.

 

[Dusk Pit]

Are you taking Japanese results into account? Kameme (formerly known as Kamemushi) has proven that Mega Man is one of the best high tiers in the game, with a lot of potential. It's not only Japan, he got 2rd place at EVO 2016. I see little reason for Mega Man not to be in tier 2.

Duck Hunt has gotten some pretty decent results in Japan as well. When played by skilled players Duck Hunt is actually pretty decent.

Why downvote Mewtwo? Do you not think Mewtwo is top 10?

We've just had a discussion about Marth, so... Why downvote?

The thing is, I'm not just looking at character results. When creating a tier list, results is just one category when ranking characters but people tend to look only at results and draw their conclusion based on that. When a some chraracter does well in a big tournament, they are instantly high tier. That is not how it is supposed to work. What if there is no notable presentation for a certain character? What if you are from the EU but their results don't mean anything it seems? How often does a character need "proving" in order for not falling down? Do we look at player or character results? What if a good player dominates with their character like ZeRo? Is it possible that there are relevant techs you don't know about? These are all some questions that should be taken into account when creating the most accurate list as possible. Some characters just are more popular and see more useage and are more likely to win tournaments which means they get peoples' attention meanwhile less popular characters fall down for no reason.

Character movement should be subtle not like what happened with mega man. Characters don't change anymore, only people and main stream opinions do and that is somewhat a problem.

Tier lists are subjective, there is nothig we can do about it but creating a list based on results only, distorts the list. Or is Dark Pit a bottom tier but Pit high tier just because there is no results for DPit?

 

[Bowserboy3]

The thing is, I'm not just looking at character results. When creating a tier list, results is just one category when ranking characters but people tend to look only at results and draw their conclusion based on that. When a some chraracter does well in a big tournament, they are instantly high tier. That is not how it is supposed to work. What if there is no notable presentation for a certain character? What if you are from the EU but their results don't mean anything it seems? How often does a character need "proving" in order for not falling down? Do we look at player or character results? What if a good player dominates with their character like ZeRo? Is it possible that there are relevant techs you don't know about? These are all some questions that should be taken into account when creating the most accurate list as possible. Some characters just are more popular and see more useage and are more likely to win tournaments which means they get peoples' attention meanwhile less popular characters fall down for no reason.

Character movement should be subtle not like what happened with mega man. Characters don't change anymore, only people and main stream opinions do and that is somewhat a problem.

Tier lists are subjective, there is nothig we can do about it but creating a list based on results only, distorts the list. Or is Dark Pit a bottom tier but Pit high tier just because there is no results for DPit?

Ok, that's a nice summary and all, but it still doesn't explain your reasons for your votes. If anything, it completely counteracts your votes. I'm confused...?

 

[Dusk Pit]

Ok, that's a nice summary and all, but it still doesn't explain your reasons for your votes. If anything, it completely counteracts your votes. I'm confused...?

There is an explanation for most of my votes if you just read it. Which part did you not understand?

 

[QualityQ]

I'm busy this week and probably won't respond again until Saturday, but as one of the downvoters I feel inclined offer a brief explanation of my opinion.

I also want to say a short piece on , mainly to address some of the downvotes he's gotten. Falcon does not deserve to move down, at all. Captain Falcon has the 11th best top 16 results.

I blame ZeRo for the sudden hate on Falcon. A character with the current 11th best top 16 results and the 3rd best results total overall since the Wii U version released is NOT any lower than high tier. Ok, past patches might not be relevant now, but even going just as far back as the release of 1.1.6, Falcon still has the 5th best overall results total in patch 1.1.6. ZeRo was heavily underplaying Falcon's strengths, which is surprising, because he plays the character himself (and even jokingly considers himself the best player of the character on occasion).

I assume you're talking about this? Let's look at the numbers for a bit.

By far and above, Captain Falcon has the largest playerbase of any character; there's a ton of ways to verify this but here's one example. So, there's going to be A LOT of falcon players.

Now's lets look at how that list was calculated:
"Category 1's scoring goes from 1-8, Category 2's scoring goes from 3-10, Category 3's scoring goes from 5-12, and Category 4's scoring goes from 9-16."

By this system, you're saying a category 1 (80-? entrants) 1st place performance is equal to 1/2 of a 1st place performance at a category 4 (600+ entrants). There's benefits and disadvantages to this system. One disadvantage is, with enough category 1 performances, you can inflate a character's stat by popularity alone (which is the logic on why Das Koopa says "few/no weeklies" in that thread).

Now we throw in Captain Falcon's heavy advantage state, coupled with player comparability. Simply put, people at the top of a category 4 tournament have more knowledge, more experience, and a greater ability to take advantage of character weaknesses than those at a category 1 tournament. This means Captain Falcon's benefit of early knee kills, bad DI, 50/50's and spotdodge reads are MUCH more effective in a category 1 environment.

Combine playerbase, tournament-number inflation and category 1 proficiency, and wha-la! "11th best top 16 results." I say that statistic is inflated because most of C. Fal's results are category 1 and 5th-11th performances.

the 3rd best results total overall since the Wii U version released is NOT any lower than high tier.

Not sure why you include this bit, since I see it as a downside. That number has declined since 1.1.6, suggesting he did better in an underdeveloped meta and as the meta continues to develop Captain Falcon's performance will decrease, again suggesting he's currently overrated.

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I'll stop here for now, although I didn't talk about gameplay, theory, or specific character comparisons. I may return to that later. I say put on the high end of mid, but not high.

 

[lbrasz44]

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[mario sucks]

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Might add in a countervote later, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Nidtendofreak]

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Holding onto last vote

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Want to reemphasize that I don't consider Japanese results as I consider their metagame to be too different from NA's to be fairly included. Can certainly see how MUs should be played out and all and I'm all for that, but can't just lump in their results with ours.

I'll accept MegaMan being in his current tier. No way on earth he should move higher.

 

[Frihetsanka]

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Want to reemphasize that I don't consider Japanese results as I consider their metagame to be too different from NA's to be fairly included. Can certainly see how MUs should be played out and all and I'm all for that, but can't just lump in their results with ours.

I'll accept MegaMan being in his current tier. No way on earth he should move higher.

Firstly, he did get second place on EVO, which is an American tournament. Secondly, nowhere is it stated that this is a strictly NA based tier list. The Japanese Smash scene is, from what I can tell, very strong, and should be considered whenever rating characters. After all, would Villager really be top 15 if not for Ranai? Would Mewtwo be top 10 without Abandango?

The way I see it, Mega Man is clearly top 15 when played properly. He's fairly hard to play properly though, which is probably why not that many top level players play him.

 

[Y2Kay]

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How in the world are these two more viable than characters like and ?

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[Frihetsanka]

Votes thus far (the official tier names are the numbers, I put my suggested tier names in parenthesis, but those aren't official):

1 (Top):
Moving up to 1 (Top): [5][4][3]
2 (Upper High): [1][-1]
3 (Lower High): [0][-1][-2]
Moving down to 4 (High-Mid): [-3]
4 (High-Mid): [2][1][0]
Moving up to 4 (High-Mid): [3]
5 (Mid): [0][-2]
Moving down to 6 (Low-Mid): [-4]
Moving up to 5 (Mid): [4][3]
6 (Low-Mid): [2][1][0]
Moving down to 7 (Low): [-3]
7 (Low): [1][0][-1]
Moving down to 8 (Bottom): [-3]

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Firstly, he did get second place on EVO, which is an American tournament. Secondly, nowhere is it stated that this is a strictly NA based tier list. The Japanese Smash scene is, from what I can tell, very strong, and should be considered whenever rating characters. After all, would Villager really be top 15 if not for Ranai? Would Mewtwo be top 10 without Abandango?

The way I see it, Mega Man is clearly top 15 when played properly. He's fairly hard to play properly though, which is probably why not that many top level players play him.

The 2nd place is why I'm not downvoting him below his current tier, and I'm just aiming to keep him in his current tier.

He does not stack up with the characters above him. I don't think Villager should be that high either.

Mewtwo basically gets luck in that Aba has done well in NA multiple times with him, and other players are starting to get there with him. I'd still considering him closer to the 10th spot than I would say, the 5th spot.

The Japanese scene is strong yes, I never claimed otherwise. However, I feel their formatting is a tad too different, as is what characters they have and haven't developed counter play for. NA and Europe as a whole? Fairly similar overall. Japan? Its outside of that range in differences.

I don't think Japan should be included in the official tier list either. Think NA/EU and Japan should have their own tier lists. Just looking at what players from each region think, we're quite clearly rather far apart in how we view characters and who we develop or don't develop.

EDIT: Change my - to -. Palutena already has more than enough votes to knock her down.

 

[TDK]

Changing my upvote to a upvote. I highly disagree with Pac-Man being anywhere above low tier but I can't stop him now so I'll try to keep Lucina where she should be.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Bowserboy3 : I have a suggestion for a new rule. I find that a lot of the time, a character is voted up a tier just to be voted down in the next round. This leads us to spend votes on a few borderline cases, over and over again (such as Pac-Man, Palutena, and Falco). My suggestion is this:

A character gets immunity for one round following a move. No one can vote for the character until the next round. For instance, let's say Bayonetta moves up this round. That means that people cannot vote for her next round, neither upvotes nor downvotes. This immunity only lasts for one round.

What this would do is give us a breather of sorts when it comes to certain controversial characters. This should help speed the process up a bit, and not having the same characters move up and down every round would be nice.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3 : I have a suggestion for a new rule. I find that a lot of the time, a character is voted up a tier just to be voted down in the next round. This leads us to spend votes on a few borderline cases, over and over again (such as Pac-Man, Palutena, and Falco). My suggestion is this:

A character gets immunity for one round following a move. No one can vote for the character until the next round. For instance, let's say Bayonetta moves up this round. That means that people cannot vote for her next round, neither upvotes nor downvotes. This immunity only lasts for one round.

What this would do is give us a breather of sorts when it comes to certain controversial characters. This should help speed the process up a bit, and not having the same characters move up and down every round would be nice.

I appreciate the suggestion, but that still takes a little away from the "vote whoever you like" aspect of the list. I get your concern though, but at least then we can identify which characters really need focusing on when we get to the "wildcard" part of the list later down the line.

So for now, we'll keep things as is - good suggestion though.

There is an explanation for most of my votes if you just read it. Which part did you not understand?

Well, it doesn't mention any of the characters you voted on. You just gave general examples and never aluded to your votes. That's what I am getting at, I suppose I could have made it a bit more clear.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I appreciate the suggestion, but that still takes a little away from the "vote whoever you like" aspect of the list. I get your concern though, but at least then we can identify which characters really need focusing on when we get to the "wildcard" part of the list later down the line.

So for now, we'll keep things as is - good suggestion though.

It's something worth considering. There's no rush to add it right now, though it could potentially smoothen the process a bit.

What I think might happen: This round: Pac-Man moves up, Palutena moves down. Next round: People start voting for Pac-Man to move down and he moves down. People start voting for Palutena to move up and she moves up. The round after that: Pac-Man moves up, Palutena moves down. A lot of people might end up spending their votes for the same characters, over and over again. Having a cooldown period would help give people more options. Instead of going "Hey, Pac-Man is too low, I'd better vote him up" the round after he was moved down, they could vote for someone else. In the end, I think it'll give people more realistic options rather than less. It's worth considering, at least.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The problem with that comes when we're about to lock tiers up: whichever characters are on cooldown have an advantage over the ones that aren't.

 

[Deleted member]

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How in the world are these two more viable than characters like and ?

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I dunno, because Pac Man and Wario aren't good characters.

 

[Frihetsanka]

The problem with that comes when we're about to lock tiers up: whichever characters are on cooldown have an advantage over the ones that aren't.

The rule should probably be removed at some point, at least a few weeks before the next phase. Perhaps we could have some rounds to just vote for controversial characters near the end of phase 1?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I dunno, because Pac Man and Wario aren't good characters.

Pac-Man and Wario certainly ain't great. Used to be better, fell behind in metagames + in Wario's case most of the DLC characters eat him alive.

Wario I could see clinging to the last spot of mid tier simply because of Waft being such a strong comeback mechanic, and it being even more potent in a 2-stock system. Pac-Man doesn't have the legs to make it into mid tier anymore though. Mains he has left aren't prolific enough. Could in theory make it back there one day, but he ain't there now.

 

[Y2Kay]

I dunno, because Pac Man and Wario aren't good characters.

But Palutena and Little Mac are????

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They currently have more rep.

Don't think they should move up either. But they are, currently speaking, better than Pac-Man at least. Wario gets into the "results vs character attributes" realm of things.

 

[Deleted member]

But Palutena and Little Mac are????

i wouldn't necessarily say Palu, but LM is decent overall

 

[TDK]

Palu at the very least has notable wins and rep going for her (TLTC got top 32 at Evo, Prince Ramen got 5th at Come To Papa, and of course, Prince Ramen beat ZeRo at CEO.)

 

[Frihetsanka]

I think Little Mac is a character who is controversial because of his theory. When you look at his theory and notice his weak grab-game, aerial game and his awful recovery, then he seems like either a low tier character or a low-mid character. Then you look at his results, especially Sol, and Little Mac suddenly seems like more of a mid tier character.

Maybe people overestimate the impact of his flaws? Maybe Little Mac deserves to be mid tier?

 

[Y2Kay]

Pac Man and Palutena are about equal in terms of results, and Wario has better results than all 3 of them by a noticeable amount.

All of them except Wario should be low tier imo.

 

[Deleted member]

Pac Man and Palutena are about equal in terms of results, and Wario has better results than all 3 of them by a noticeable amount.

All of them except Wario should be low tier imo.

Results aren't everything. Palu has a better MU spread than Wario and Pac and in general better reward off her interactions in neutral.

Ike is currently bottom 15 in terms of aggregated results, I guess he's low tier too huh?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Results aren't everything. Palu has a better MU spread than Wario and Pac and in general better reward off her interactions in neutral.

This is what I don't get about the community & results, it seems like everyone has different priorities on how much results reflect a character's viability.
Yet 90% of the time it's always like this:

• *So-&-so* has a lot players with some results = "They must be high tier"

• *Billy-whoever* doesn't have many players but still has some results. = "Nope just low tier"

 

[TDK]

• *Billy-whoever* doesn't have many players but still has some results. = "Nope just low tier"

It's not just "some" results - you have to have "consistent" results. Even Jigglypuff has once-in-a-blue-moon results (Heck, even Brawler got a top 16 a while back). It's not just the amount of results (Though more results = Better), it's also how frequently the results are. (This seperates flavour of the month characters from actual consistent characters.)

 

[Y2Kay]

Results aren't everything. Palu has a better MU spread than Wario and Pac and in general better reward off her interactions in neutral.

Ike is currently bottom 15 in terms of aggregated results, I guess he's low tier too huh?

I'm just using the results to support my argument: Palu and Little Mac are not better than Wario or Pac.

And I'd have to see a Palutena MU chart, because I doubt it's any better than Wario.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just using the results to support my argument: Palu and Little Mac are not better than Wario or Pac.

And I'd have to see a Palutena MU chart, because I doubt it's any better than Wario.

Here's Prince Ramen's MU spread.

As of right now, results are your only argument. What else do you think makes Palu/LM worse than those two?

 

[TDK]

Seeing Palu Diddy as 35-65 makes Prince Ramen's win over ZeRo all that more impressive.

 

[Y2Kay]

that match up chart is pretty generous and even then it's a pretty bad match up spread.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

It's not just "some" results - you have to have "consistent" results. Even Jigglypuff has once-in-a-blue-moon results (Heck, even Brawler got a top 16 a while back). It's not just the amount of results (Though more results = Better), it's also how frequently the results are. (This seperates flavour of the month characters from actual consistent characters.)

I don't understand your point.
In my example both (For lack of a better term) popular & non-popular characters were getting around the same results.
But from how you stated your post & quoted mine, it sounded like if a character doesn't have wide player base then their results don't mean as much as the more preferred.

I'm arguing about the numbers in results not rate.

 

[Deleted member]

that match up chart is pretty generous and even then it's a pretty bad match up spread.

How is it a bad MU spead?