Smashballs - much deeper than people think

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

When it gets right down to it, Final Smashes are an element of balance. If you take away Smash Balls, you basically eliminate what tournaments strive so hard for.

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

When it gets right down to it, Final Smashes are an element of balance. If you take away Smash Balls, you basically eliminate what tournaments strive so hard for.

Final smashes are not an element of balance. If you could use them any time you wished instead of having to break the smash ball, it might be arguable, but as it stands, smash balls just tilt the match too far towards whoever gets it first, it doesn't balance the characters because only one person at a time is likely to get it.

After the first smash ball is broken, the player can now just hold on to it as "threat" of sorts, The ability to essentially take control of the entire match though intimidation (i.e. If I get close to him he'll kill me with the FS) is more powerful than the smash itself. And if you just run away and wait for another smash ball to appear, they'll just chase after it and blast you with the FS when you try to grab the other smash ball. In some cases they might even be able to grab it for themselves before you get back onscreen and continue the cycle. The other alternative is to just run over sacrifice a stock to remove the threat. Either way, if you didn't get the smash ball, you lose.

I personally don't think the flash and pretty colors are worth all the hassle that smash balls bring with them to tournament play. For all the smash ball tournament supporters I ask you this: What do we really gain from turning on smashballs? Other than some nice graphics of course.

 

[RyuuAqua]

I'm with Wyvern on this. Well, well said.

I'm basically against Smash Balls in tournaments for two reasons:

1) They promote turtling and camping. In a tournament atmosphere, characters could score enough percent to make their Final Smash lethal, then shield/camp/run until it appears. From there, the strategy involves only breaking the Smash Ball and setting up a Final Smash. Instead of making the game faster, they actually slow it down - why kill without a Smash Ball when they're available? In the worst case scenario, both players would only deal enough damage to make their Smash Ball kill, and simply wait for it to appear before moving again.

2) They make the game more imbalanced. As has already been noted, some characters have amazing Fianl Smashes (Marth), but some have really weak ones (Ness, Jiggs). Any ideas of characters' competency are thrown out the window when Final Smashes are factored in, and when already good characters get broken wide open by their Final Smashes (f-air to f-air to Critical Hit, anyone?) tournament play gets staler faster. In addition, more mobile characters have an innate advantage in reaching the Smash Ball and breaking it (Fox and...once again...Marth), which makes comebacks more difficult for slower or heavier types.

E.G.G.M.A.N.'s point about holding a Smash Ball for the intimidation factor is pretty valid too.

 

[mugwhump]

They're definately more balanced than I thought you'd be. Like Lucas' seemed to suck, but you can use it immediately without having to chase them. Marth's is a lot easier to dodge than I'd thought, as well.

But some of them... I mean, Shiek's has huge range, is a 1HKO, you can't dodge after she's started the animation (like you can with Marth's), it doesn't leave her very vulnerable, and she doesn't seem to have much trouble getting it. So I dunno.

 

[JT_productions829]

Even though some final smashes may not be as effective as others, the smash ball is just overall to overpowered like many of you say. And like Zero System said, Smash balls can be fun for friendly free for all matches, but in a tournament sitution, It changes the game too drastically.

 

[Crizthakidd]

awsome thread dude. i agree 100% with the whole stragitic aspect of smashballs.

 

[SanjiWatsuki]

Smash Balls are more interesting than regular items, and can be fun to play with, but they seem really unsuitable for the competitive scene for a number of reasons.

First of all, in spite of all the little checks they have, they can still be random and have a drastic effect on how a game turns out. If you get knocked far off a stage and the Smash Ball appears right next to your opponent, they get it for free. If Link star KOs someone just as a Smash Ball appears, he can get it without opposition and probably kill you straight from 0% when you spawn. It's not ALWAYS random, but it CAN be random, and a random smash ball can very easily determine the outcome of a game. If tournament matches were played with fifty stocks it would probably work out, but three- or four-stock? Too many games would be won or lost depending solely on where and when the Smash Ball decided to spawn.

I can definitely see your point. Final Smashes are potentially game changing items and with such a small sample size in tournament standard matches it could truly change the outlook of the battle.

Also, not all characters have an equal chance of getting a Smash Ball. Most of my current exposure to Brawl has been in free-for-alls (sometimes with Smash Balls on, sometimes not), and it's very clear that certain characters have a MASSIVE advantage in obtaining these things. If a Pit is in a game, he'll get the Smash Ball over anyone else a good 75% of the time. And I don't think I've EVER seen R.O.B. miss a Smash Ball. I think I once got five in a row...people always complain when someone plays R.O.B. in a Smash Ball game because his is the only Final Smash that anyone's likely to see. So if you've got a tournament match with R.O.B. versus Donkey Kong, the R.O.B. player is probably going to get most--if not ALL--of the Smash Balls across multiple games, because he has such fantastic aerial maneuverability allowing him to locate and chase them really easily whereas Donkey Kong does not. Furthermore, due to that same lack of maneuverability, R.O.B. is probably going to get a free KO on Donkey Kong every time he gets a Final Smash. 30-ish seconds of invincibility, during which all he has to do is look at you while standing on the ground for them to die. Big ol' DK ain't avoiding that too often the way I see it.

I won't disagree that there is a disparity in the ease of opening Smash Balls for certain characters. It's a strong point. Although, I believe the examples you have given may be the result of small sample size, the point still stands that some characters have a greater ease in getting to/opening a Smash Ball. Idealistically, a slower character would be able to attack the faster one, who is attempting to open the Smash Ball. Unfortunately, I can't seem to see the balance in that.

In a duel, Smash Balls promote stalling. If you're on your last stock with 75% damage on yourself and your opponent has a full stock lead on you, as long as you're playing a reasonably maneuverable character, your best choice will pretty much always be to just stall and avoid your opponent and wait for Smash Balls to spawn. If you go head to head, you'll almost surely lose, but if get lucky and can live long enough to grab a couple of Smash Balls, you might be able to gimp your opponent a couple times and come off with a win. Stalling is seen as a bad thing. Stages that are exceptionally good for stalling tend to be banned for that very reason. And even though it might be impossible to stall unfailingly on the remaining stages, encouraging a losing player to stop fighting and just evade for three minutes in hopes of seeing a couple of Smash Balls show up and save them does not push matches forward. In fact, my group of friends has started to promote a house rule wherein players are no longer allowed to pick up Final Smashes once there are only two players left alive.

Once again, a definite tactic that must be considered. An easy way out of this problem is to place a ban on "stalling." Unfortunately, such a blanket statement would be difficult to determine and enforce. What constitutes "stalling" in that situation? Even if you could establish a benchmark of stalling, players would simply cut it as close as possible to the benchmark. I can't seen to refute this point.

And really, the whole "most Final Smashes are avoidable"/"you can knock it out of the opponent" mechanics don't function very well in a duel. If you're in a free-for-all, with a lot of stuff going on all the time, then yeah, it's not uncommon for someone to have the Smash Ball knocked out of them immediately before they get a chance to use it. ... ... ...

I can't refute this, nor can I think of anything to add to this.

Between Friendly Fire and the basic element of having more characters on the stage at once, I could definitely imagine Smash Balls having a much more reasonable claim to viability in a 2v2 environment compared to a 1v1. But I don't have any experience with high-level team play, so I can't really comment on it specifically. I'm skeptical that it would ever actually happen, what with players being so used to the current rules, but conceptually, it seems like it might be worth considering.

Smash Balls in team battles, eh? Sounds like an interesting idea. I feel that your points would still stand in that situation, but it would make for an interesting test. Would a doubles environment really change the Smash Ball situation? Personally, I think that it would still be game changing and have enough randomness to force it to be an imbalanced situation, but it is something that should be looked at.

 

[skuzzel]

..but then, with friendly fire on, certain FSes would be be so much better for 2v2.

Marth's vs Ness's? Many characters have uncontrollable smashes that attack everyone on screen, including your partner, while some can be controlled. It would throw 2v2 tiers all out of whack.

my 2 cents.

 

[redgreenblue]

I think Brawl without Smash Balls would be similar to Street Fighter III without super moves.

 

[courte]

while i do find value in this post i find it somewhat sad that it had to be made
i guess who says what is a big part, but to see some much support for something sakurai had already said is somewhat mindboggling

 

[joeysmash]

in a 1on1 never will smashballs be on, but 2vs2? thats a maybe...

 

[BigRick]

It's really nasty where scrubs took this discussion

like it or not, character balance is not a valid reason to ban final smashes

find sumtin else, won't be too hard

 

[-Hoggle-]

It's really nasty where scrubs took this discussion

like it or not, character balance is not a valid reason to ban final smashes

find sumtin else, won't be too hard

Its not important that some Final smashes are unbalanced with certain characters, even though this is true. The fact of the matter is that Final Smashes are very game-breaking in matches and require little/no skill to use.

 

[fr0st2k]

They're definately more balanced than I thought you'd be. Like Lucas' seemed to suck, but you can use it immediately without having to chase them. Marth's is a lot easier to dodge than I'd thought, as well.

But some of them... I mean, Shiek's has huge range, is a 1HKO, you can't dodge after she's started the animation (like you can with Marth's), it doesn't leave her very vulnerable, and she doesn't seem to have much trouble getting it. So I dunno.

\

WOWOWOWOW@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MArths FS IS ZOMG!!! EAZY TO DODGE?!?!!?!

people with even an ounce of intelligence have been saying this since day one.

it really took peole 1 month to figure out how to dodge a straight attack when you essentially KNOW its coming?

Not to mention we all saw a lvl 3 computer yoshi avoid pits FS like .. the during e3.

 

[fr0st2k]

Its not important that some Final smashes are unbalanced with certain characters, even though this is true. The fact of the matter is that Final Smashes are very game-breaking in matches and require little/no skill to use.

the metagame will develop around obtaining the smash ball.

as wyvern stated...stalling might become more prevalent. Dodging will become part of the game. Chasing will become part of the game.

These 2 things DIDNT exist in melee. Smash balls open up more of the game, allow us to play the game differently!

"OMGOMGOGM HE SAID DIFFERENTLY, (omg) (I can't believe it) (did you hear that!) (Differently??? the nerve!)"

Once again, a definite tactic that must be considered. An easy way out of this problem is to place a ban on "stalling." Unfortunately, such a blanket statement would be difficult to determine and enforce. What constitutes "stalling" in that situation? Even if you could establish a benchmark of stalling, players would simply cut it as close as possible to the benchmark. I can't seen to refute this point.

oorrr , godforbid, allow it, and try it out?

why the **** would you ban it? Why not just play with it? why the ****!!!!! OMG!!!! idiotic statements like that really show the biased personalities on this board. Are people really that unable to think outside the box, are you really that stuck in the past? unable to try anything new?

 

[rklamer]

Marth's isn't broken in fact it sucks because if you miss with it t will kill you and it is easy to avoid with any decently fast character.

Ever heard of "using it while you're on the ground"? It won't kill you.

 

[Koga]

from what i've seen the Smashballs always spawn in the same general area of the screen so they are predictable in a way, and due to how high they usually are and how long it generally takes to get them, even if you are knocked off the stage then you should be able to get back before they can get it, and if you can't then you're probably dead anyway. That's the only real reason for banning them is that situation, and it isn't even a bad deal.

Its clear that smashballs are clearly not an item in the conventional senes and that they were meant to be an important part of the game. I think we need to take the stance of "innocent untill proven Guilty" with smash balls.

I mean really, have you noticed it takes longer to KO people now? and that maybe Smashballs were made to remedy this?

 

[Wlokos]

why the **** would you ban it? Why not just play with it? why the ****!!!!!

Why would you ban anything in Brawl? For the sake of balance and providing the best, most varied gameplay experience possible while maintaining a fair and balanced playing field that rewards skill over luck. The fact that you think people want to ban the smash ball just because it's new shows that you probably haven't read a single post in this thread.

 

[Yuna]

Not true. Pit, anyone?

Oh yeah. Let me revise that:
From the minute your character starts performing it to the minute he/she stops performing it.

I.e., Pit's performing the action to do his Final Smash. The FS continues even after he ends the action so the invincibility frames end there. Everyone else, however, have continous FS:es.

the smash ball is a totally different kind of item. It floats in from the top of the screen. It has to be attacked multiple times and flies away once hit. Once the item is obtained, it can be knocked off of the person.

It spawns randomly and at random times. Plenty of times, it'll spawn when someone's recovering. It also sometimes fly in a random direction when hit.

When you activate an FS, you have complete invincibility from the frame you activate it 'til you've stopped using it (Pit's ends before his FS ends, but everyone else is invincible 'til the hitbox of their FS:es disappear). This means that approaching someone to knock the FS out of them is extremely risky. Heck, even projectiling them is risky since invicinbility also goes through projectiles! You projectil me, I'll send my Triforce forward and FS you as Toon Link.

They see you coming, heck, they block something you did that's not Marth's original Fair. You'll lag so much they can just shielddrop into FS and you die.

What do all these things mean? Well, People argue that the smash ball is cheap because it gives an instant or freebie KO. But ... what about the battle for the smash ball? Isnt that a test of skill? What about the ability to dodge certain FS's. What about the skill involved knock the ball out of your enemies hands.

No, we argue so much more. You just choose to ignore it.

Yes there are a few smashes that are quite different. Bowsers FS for instance can be used immediately, with no penalty or danger, and it gives him a huge advantage. As opposed to Marths, Ikes, MK, or Zelda, who do instant attacks, which are hit or misses.

Which can be comboed into. One-hit-Ko that can be comboed into? Yeah, no.

The idea here is to have 2 types of tourneys. The first would be normal, no items. The second is to play with the smash ball item.

Say hello to "Everybody plays Marth".

The rules can be different. For instance. The stock can be raised. Perhaps it can be put on timed mode.

Host your own tournaments. Good luck with that.

The skill in the Smash Ball tourneys would be based around typical fighting skill, but also around strategies of obtaining and preventing the other player from obtaining the smash ball.

And also luck and one-hit-KO-combos... and Marth.

Any1 thought about allowing smash balls in 2v2s??? Could lead to some epic stuff.

Lucario whiffing it against all 3 other people or a double/triple-KO as Marth? Oh yeah, we'd love us some more of that.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

If FS were used, Sonic would be the only character you see in tournament, followed by Zelda. Both of them can get to the ball faster than anyone else (din's fire=faster than the cast, and hits really really hard), and they both have ridiculously good FSes. Not gonna check back on the thread, I know what I'm saying, and any debate is pointless.

 

[Crispy4001]

So, would anyone care to argue that the 'fight for the smash ball' justifies most Final Smashes' power and ease of use? Or can we all agree that it's disproportionate?

This is the one thing I haven't gotten an answer from than those that are still pushing for smash balls competitively. Access to uber attack/extended invincibility/instant KO moves... all for breaking open a flying capsule?

Seems to me like the those arguements being made dwell on the fact that there's 'some' strategy to getting & using a Smash Ball, which therefore is additive to the depth and balance ... in theory. But no one from that side of the fence stops to consider that little sliver of added nuance results in: "PRESS 1 PRESS 1 PRESS 1!!!!! YEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH WOOOO PIKACHU WINS!!" (paraphrasing the E4All booth babes)


Those who want items off but Smash Balls on confuse me even further. I can sort of understand the "but it's a part of their moveset" arguement - but it doesn't really counter the fact that having a Final Smash at your disposal would be preferable to holding the deadliest, cheapest and most unbalanced regular item in the game.

 

[mugwhump]

\

WOWOWOWOW@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MArths FS IS ZOMG!!! EAZY TO DODGE?!?!!?!

people with even an ounce of intelligence have been saying this since day one.

it really took peole 1 month to figure out how to dodge a straight attack when you essentially KNOW its coming?

Not to mention we all saw a lvl 3 computer yoshi avoid pits FS like .. the during e3.

Easier to dodge than it seemed to be in the first videos, at which point in time everyone else (even the ones with a whole ounce of intelligence) thought the same thing.

 

[Yuna]

Those who want items off but Smash Balls on confuse me even further. I can sort of understand the "but it's a part of their moveset" arguement - but it doesn't really counter the fact that having a Final Smash at your disposal would be preferable to holding the deadliest, cheapest and most unbalanced regular item in the game.

They're also wrong. The FS:es are no more part of their movesets that the Beam-sword is. Both are items with different effects depending on which character you play as.

Depending on who picks the Beam-sword up, the moves you can use with it varies. It's the same with FS:es. They're just item-assisted attacks.

It's just that FS:es are flashier and more fan service. Most of the people who want FS:es on want them on for the flash and for the "fun" of it, totally bypassing all thoughts of Competitive play and balance.

Easier to dodge than it seemed to be in the first videos, at which point in time everyone else (even the ones with a whole ounce of intelligence) thought the same thing.

It's been apparent to me how easy/hard it is to dodge/run away from certain FS:es from the first time I played the game. It's not rocke science.

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

Great example bro

 

[Yuna]

Great example bro

Who was that for?

If it's me, congratulations on knowing I'm a man (a feat seldom replicated). If it's for SamuraiPanda, she's a woman (IIRC) .

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

LOL ya i mean the smash balls are cool and i am a competitive player and wish they could be in tournaments cause there pretty dope looking some of them and cool to use from what i have seen but i know there is no doubt that all "Real" competitive tournaments indeed will have this removed

 

[Dream Chaser]

Perhaps if items were on the smash ball would be a rare occasion to mix up the gameplay and test the ability of the players, to see who is skilled enough to control the smash ball, fight off the opponent and maintain access to safe ground (so you dont suicide as soon as it has been gained, which I have seen, its funny).
It would be interesting to experiment with the idea, see if it works.

 

[Thino]

wheres the dragoon love seriously? Just like the smash ball , when parts of dragoong appear the whole gameplay change becoming more like Power Stone lol

 

[Yuna]

Perhaps if items were on the smash ball would be a rare occasion to mix up the gameplay and test the ability of the players, to see who is skilled enough to control the smash ball, fight off the opponent and maintain access to safe ground (so you dont suicide as soon as it has been gained, which I have seen, its funny).
It would be interesting to experiment with the idea, see if it works.

So in order to justify having a random and overpowered item on, we should add more randomness (items)?

 

[Ballistaboy]

i never thought of it like that but youre right, and maybe i will use smashballs when i play, ill be using pit so while he tries to dodge my or the FS's attacks I can still be atking him so he will most likely get hit

 

[Hitzel]

The problem I've observed with Smashballs is this:

If the only item you're allowing is a Smashball, even with items set to "Low", there are still Smashballs spawning so fast that almost every kill is from a Final Smash. I'll try to find the videos I'm recalling where only Smashballs were turned on, but I think that you can picture the results of a Smashball every 30 seconds by yourself.

Now, if we could create a timer that dictates when Smashballs spawn, much like powerups and power weapons in a FPS, this wouldn't be a problem... but Smash doesn't give us that option.

 

[adumbrodeus]

..but then, with friendly fire on, certain FSes would be be so much better for 2v2.

Marth's vs Ness's? Many characters have uncontrollable smashes that attack everyone on screen, including your partner, while some can be controlled. It would throw 2v2 tiers all out of whack.

my 2 cents.

There always will be tiers, characters with better final smashes for 2v2 should be higher tiered for 2v2 then characters with bad ones if that's the acceptable play environment, just like a good f-smash made Marth more powerful in melee because it was acceptable in the play environment to use f-smash.

What's wrong with having different tiers for 1v1 and 2v2?

 

[skuzzel]

There always will be tiers, characters with better final smashes for 2v2 should be higher tiered for 2v2 then characters with bad ones if that's the acceptable play environment, just like a good f-smash made Marth more powerful in melee because it was acceptable in the play environment to use f-smash.

What's wrong with having different tiers for 1v1 and 2v2?

Okay, let me rephrase then.

Having smash balls on during team matches will make some characters unusable because of there final smash. The idea is the same for single player, but it would be much more game breaking for 2v2. It would be as if marth's f-smash was so good that it made all the other characters useless. I suppose that's just my opinion though right, and smash balls add just so much depth that its okay to throw balance to the way side.

 

[Yuna]

Having smash balls on during team matches will make some characters unusable because of there final smash. The idea is the same for single player, but it would be much more game breaking for 2v2. It would be as if marth's f-smash was so good that it made all the other characters useless. I suppose that's just my opinion though right, and smash balls add just so much depth that its okay to throw balance to the way side.

In 2vs2, you can kill your teammate but also your opponents. Two stocks for the price of one, so it would just make it a bit riskier. But kinda worth it.

It'd also be more rewarding since certain one-hit-KOs can hit more than one opponent. Marth can KO both opponents at the same time, etc. But, yes, it'd be very broken. No character would become unusuable, though.

 

[fr0st2k]

The problem I've observed with Smashballs is this:

If the only item you're allowing is a Smashball, even with items set to "Low", there are still Smashballs spawning so fast that almost every kill is from a Final Smash. I'll try to find the videos I'm recalling where only Smashballs were turned on, but I think that you can picture the results of a Smashball every 30 seconds by yourself.

Now, if we could create a timer that dictates when Smashballs spawn, much like powerups and power weapons in a FPS, this wouldn't be a problem... but Smash doesn't give us that option.

heres a crazy thought.

increase stock or maybe make it a timed game?

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

heres a crazy thought.

increase stock or maybe make it a timed game?

Wouldn't it be easier just to turn them off? Is there a specific reason why we would need to have them on (btw I assume you're talking about tournaments, not friendlies).

 

[SockNinja]

theres no reason to ban all items or ban FSes except that you are unable to adapt to a changing environment.

Scrubs say this takes away "skill" but really it makes it so that you can keep performing your tech-skill BS combos w/ "top tier" characters (top tier w/o items more like).

Melee is TWICE as much fun, and at least twice as complicated/engrossing when you play with items on (I turn off bombs, hammers, and hearts and tomatoes, as they are too powerful to be as easily accessible as other items). They aren't RANDOM they pop out at specific points, you don't want a bat to fall into your opponents hand? Dont let him stand under an item drop.

I havent played brawl yet (getting a copy in two hours =]) but unless theres something wacky and crazy going on that i havent been able to distinguish, FSes seem perfectly balanced. And if you turn off a handful of the more ******** items, theres no reason we cant have a lively, competitive scene w/ items.

PS. YOU GET MUCH BETTER AT THIS GAME IF YOU PLAY W/ ITEMS (just a hint)

 

[Yuna]

heres a crazy thought.

increase stock or maybe make it a timed game?

Increased stock:
How is this going to help anyone? Let's say we increase the stocks to 8. OK... so now Marth, Toon Link and the other really good characters with deadly FS:es will have even a greater lead.

The characters who don't have one hit KO-FS:es will still have to work really hard to get a stock off of Marth or Toon Link. Marth and Toon Link will still be able to combo, spam and KO quite easily. Marth's and Toon Link's FS:es will still rule while others won't.

It's just that it'll be an incredibly uphill battle for 8 stocks instead of 4 now. Statistically, the balance will tip even more in favour of Marth, Toon Link or any of the FS-top tiers.

Timed Matches:
Yeah, reaaaally bad idea. What time should we pick? 8-10 minutes per 3-4 stocks? That'd make for tournies that took ages, not to mention that people could just suicide when they think they'll die to save on points (but we could remedy that with making suicides worth two minus points, I guess). But then the tournaments would still take forever.

Set it on a lower time setting? 5 minutes? But the balance would shift to whoever can KO the fastest to rack up enough points in those 5.

And it'd still not change the balance fact. Whoever has the best FS:es will still win because of their imbalance. Marth and Toon Link would own up the place with their imbalanced FS:es that KO well and fast!

Wouldn't it be easier just to turn them off? Is there a specific reason why we would need to have them on (btw I assume you're talking about tournaments, not friendlies).

fr0st2k is an ardent supporter of Final Smashes in tournaments.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Okay, let me rephrase then.

Having smash balls on during team matches will make some characters unusable because of there final smash. The idea is the same for single player, but it would be much more game breaking for 2v2. It would be as if marth's f-smash was so good that it made all the other characters useless. I suppose that's just my opinion though right, and smash balls add just so much depth that its okay to throw balance to the way side.

I disagree, no final smash is unusable in the situation, some simply require a great deal more care, and/or quick reflexes from your ally.

I don't think that any final smash will be good enough in 2v2 to make every other character's final smashes useless. But of course, this is something to be seen in the future, the game has only been available to play for a little while, and we're still waiting for US release, I would say that it's premature to make that decision. We have to wait and see what sort of doubles environment develops, and we have a couple of characters that are too overpowering in that environment, then we should ban, but don't just ban because there's a possibility it will unbalance the game.

 

[wodan46]

Final Smashes are balanced, once you take into account that those with weak FSs can usually get them easier.

Marth has one of the worst FSs. He has difficulty making more than 1 KO with it, is easy to dodge unless he gets in close, risking have the smash ball knocked out, and he suicides with it if he misses. He also isn't so good at getting it in the first place. I am VERY tired of hearing people say that it is awesome even though it has severe disadvantages that limit its potential.