Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[God Robert's Cousin]

With the massive success of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and their paid online service coming this fall, I wouldn't be surprised if a Switch port of Smash 4 is coming.
Not to mention, it's going to have to meet the standard of MK8D if it wants to be seen as a worthy purchase (and granted, some people don't think Deluxe is worth the double dip).
With the addition of Battle Mode, one of MK8's biggest flaws was fixed. So, I would like to ask a question.
Put aside your personal feelings on the roster for this. What is the biggest flaw(s) with Smash 4 in your eyes?
Personally, as much as I love multi-player, I want some better modes for single player such as Target Test and an Adventure Mode. It would be a dream come true if they have another big budget single player mode similar to SSE, but I'll settle with Adventure mode. Also, bring in Smash Run for the port and give custom moves to the DLC characters. Anything else is purely subjective (characters, stages, etc.)

• More single-player modes like Target Test and an improved Smash Run
• Custom moves for DLC characters
• Custom moves are either all unlocked from the start or able to be bought in an expanded trophy shop
• All characters and stages unlocked from the start
• Ability to turn off stage hazards
  
• Ability to import custom music, even if it doesn't have custom loops
• Implementation of a way to create custom controls on tags on the character select screen
• Ability to make custom move sets on the character select screen

 

[Zerp]

What is the biggest flaw(s) with Smash 4 in your eyes?

Honestly, in my perspective, the thing that's been the absolute worst to me is the balance, yes it's the best in the (official) series and I understand that not every character's going to be great, but it could still be better, they had sixteen tries with patches and even with those sixteen tries we still have gaps as vast as the one between and . I'm not asking for a impossible, perfectly balanced game that will never exist, but if they responsibly buffed the lesser characters to at least somewhere around 's level where it's possible to get Top 3 at even the most stacked majors and maybe nudged the top tiers down a bit, I'd appreciate it deeply.


Also, if that doesn't count because of how subjective it is, then I'd say the lack of a hazard toggle for stages is the worst, otherwise perfectly legal stages like Pyrosphere and Wily Castle are ruined by the lack of it.

 

[N3ON]

People who thought the number one choice was automatically going to get in had a skewed view of the ballot.

Since its inception I've maintained and still believe the method for selection was taking a swath of characters which placed highly and then from them choosing one which made sense, proved feasible and obtainable, and would be prevalent enough to be lucrative. It was not a straight election nor mere suggestion box, it was kind of an amalgamation of both.

We created the top candidates and from there the normal character deciding process took over.


Also the biggest flaw, at least in the Wii U version, is the lack of substantial single-player content. That said I'd much rather they just add additional characters and stages, as that's what most people, myself included, care about anyway.

 

[Opossum]

The more I see ballot conspiracies the less I want to see K. Rool in Smash.

Which sucks, because I legitimately like K. Rool and would rather not have my view of him turned sour like it did for characters like Daisy and...Dragonite, for some reason.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I would mention Smash Tour as a flaw, but that's too common of a complaint for now.

Maybe more balance tweaks with the roster would be good?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't like it when people think that the Ballot is some conspiracy theory and/or that it was jacksquat, hell i feel that way of thinking is nothing but self-denial, and yes, i didn't saw Bayo as a major conteder (let alone the "winner") but i always tend to underestimate characters that i don't like/care about.

It sucks that a lot of K.Rool "supporters" tend to think this way, up to the point of turning off some supporters (or ex-supporters i should say) and i hate to say it, people like this make it harder for me to support him with the same enthusiasm that i had back in 2015.

It wouldn't be the first time that my view of a character is tainted beacuse of its supporters (Chrom and the Chorus Kids come to mind) thankfully my view of K.Rool is still mostly positive.

 

[Kirbeh]

The more I see ballot conspiracies the less I want to see K. Rool in Smash.

Which sucks, because I legitimately like K. Rool and would rather not have my view of him turned sour like it did for characters like Daisy and...Dragonite, for some reason.

It can be really annoying seeing those types of arguments over and over and dealing with some of the more argumentative/stubborn fans, but you should try not to let them get to you. Allowing them to influence/sway your opinion, especially on something you otherwise genuinely like and enjoy is only a disservice to yourself.

And not to pry, but this the first I've ever seen of Dragonite brought up in regards to Smash. If anything I think it'd make for a great Pokeball Pokemon if it could fly around and use either Dragon Rage, Dragon Pulse, or Dragon Breath.

 

[A Distant Demon]

Bayonetta not being the 100% number one most voted character is reasonable.

Saying she didn't score extremely well is not


IMO

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bayonetta not being the 100% number one most voted character is reasonable.

Saying she didn't score extremely well is not


IMO

Sakurai even notes she was top 5 among the regions. She was only number 1 in the UK region.

It makes sense, being she's a European character in design.

 

[Opossum]

It can be really annoying seeing those types of arguments over and over and dealing with some of the more argumentative/stubborn fans, but you should try not to let them get to you. Allowing them to influence/sway your opinion, especially on something you otherwise genuinely like and enjoy is only a disservice to yourself.

And not to pry, but this the first I've ever seen of Dragonite brought up in regards to Smash. If anything I think it'd make for a great Pokeball Pokemon if it could fly around and use either Dragon Rage, Dragon Pulse, or Dragon Breath.

Without naming names, there was one very...passionate...Dragonite supporter a while back. Most of their posts were saying things like Nintendo failed as a company and that they were dead because they'd been "neglecting Dragonite for the last five years" and that Fairy types were a personal slap in the face as opposed to a balance-addition.

Of all the characters I thought I could be turned off of in regards to Smash, Dragonite wasn't even a thought. Then that guy came along.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Without naming names, there was one very...passionate...Dragonite supporter a while back. Most of their posts were saying things like Nintendo failed as a company and that they were dead because they'd been "neglecting Dragonite for the last five years" and that Fairy types were a personal slap in the face as opposed to a balance-addition.

Of all the characters I thought I could be turned off of in regards to Smash, Dragonite wasn't even a thought. Then that guy came along.

Don't forget the rage when Dragonite was an assist for Pokken.

 

[Sir Gengar de Èctoplasma]

Put aside your personal feelings on the roster for this. What is the biggest flaw(s) with Smash 4 in your eyes?

Easily single-player modes, especially in the Wii U version.

 

[FalKoopa]

Without naming names, there was one very...passionate...Dragonite supporter a while back. Most of their posts were saying things like Nintendo failed as a company and that they were dead because they'd been "neglecting Dragonite for the last five years" and that Fairy types were a personal slap in the face as opposed to a balance-addition.

Of all the characters I thought I could be turned off of in regards to Smash, Dragonite wasn't even a thought. Then that guy came along.

Don't forget the rage when Dragonite was an assist for Pokken.

I seem to have a gift of missing out the worst of people somehow. I remember the emotional obsession, but I don't remember the rage.

 

[Deleted member]

Put aside your personal feelings on the roster for this. What is the biggest flaw(s) with Smash 4 in your eyes?

Aside of the lack of single-player modes, I would also say the stage roster.

And I'm not talking about their layouts or the lack of a hazard toggle, but rather their lack of variety.

Really, you have like 20 stages based on grasslands with a clear blue sky.
The 3DS stage roster is better in terms of this kind of variety.

I've actually warmed up to he a great deal. But that still doesn't mean that I think she is the actual ballot winner.


Of course it is

Stop.

 

[N3ON]

I've dealt with a lot of people who harbour some apparent obsession for a certain character but, miraculously, it's only somewhat ruined one character for me. I'm going to refrain from saying who it is because that will give the person away. I guess overall I'm lucky though, having a character tainted by a fan is nasty business. Even though they're fictional they still don't deserve that.

Though fwiw I, inversely, don't often come around on characters simply because people I get on well with like them. I guess I'm loyal to my opinions, lol.

 

[AEMehr]

I've actually warmed up to he a great deal. But that still doesn't mean that I think she is the actual ballot winner.

well no, she's not. they kinda said that too lol

"negotiable" and "realizable" are broad terms and could mean different things to different people, nobody but the devs know whats considered negotiable / realizable


as far as im concerned the real ballot winner is cloud

 

[AlphaSSB]

When it comes to the ballot, I just think they didn't go about the best way of doing it. A lot of stuff was left up in the air regarding exactly how the 'winner' was chosen. That, and the ballot itself caused a rift in the Smash community, leaving just as many people angry as there were happy.

Just to clarify, this is my two cents regarding the ballot regardless of if it was 'legit' or a 'fraud'. The ballot ended years ago. Why waste your energy dreading something that far in the past?

Without naming names, there was one very...passionate...Dragonite supporter a while back. Most of their posts were saying things like Nintendo failed as a company and that they were dead because they'd been "neglecting Dragonite for the last five years" and that Fairy types were a personal slap in the face as opposed to a balance-addition.

Of all the characters I thought I could be turned off of in regards to Smash, Dragonite wasn't even a thought. Then that guy came along.

Oh, I remember that one. Constantly double/triple/quadruple-posting in his thread to keep it near the top. Which, I don't blame him for wanting his thread to seem 'relevant', but don't break the rules to do it. Hell, no-one's posted in the Wolf thread for, like, two weeks, and you won't see me double-post to revive it.

He would also tell off anyone that wasn't 100% supportive of the character. Not gonna lie, I just lurked in that thread half the time to see what all was going on. He didn't end up souring my thoughts of Dragonite though, since from the start I wasn't a fan of the idea.

At least he didn't make multiple alternate accounts to trash-talk supporters of more popular characters. At least, I don't believe he did.

 

[Bowserlick]

Whether Bayonetta was the highest character or not in the ballot, now the next Smash developer knows the most wanted characters from each region of the world.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Whether Bayonetta was the highest character or not in the ballot, now the next Smash developer knows the most wanted characters from each region of the world.

Apparently one of those was Bayonetta.

Number 1 in Europe.

 

[Diddy Kong]

well no, she's not. they kinda said that too lol

"negotiable" and "realizable" are broad terms and could mean different things to different people, nobody but the devs know whats considered negotiable / realizable


as far as im concerned the real ballot winner is cloud

Cloud could indeed very well be the ballot winner. Just realized how much sense that makes, cause even during Brawl speculation, people where massively asking for Cloud. King K.Rool was also popular of course, but Cloud was probably voted for more.

So when was it said that Bayonetta wasn't the ballot winner? Never recall to read such a quote.

Stop.

No.

 

[Bowserlick]

Apparently one of those was Bayonetta.

Number 1 in Europe.

The point being, that I bet we see the other number 1's (and number 2's) in the other regions in Smash 5.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The point being, that I bet we see the other number 1's (and number 2's) in the other regions in Smash 5.

I like this thought, it reeks optimism.

 

[Zem-raj]

The ballot is over, it's time to move on. People seem to forget that the ballot is being used for Smash 6 and beyond, not just for Super Smash Bros. for 3DS (Smash 4) and Super Smash Bros. for WiiU (Smash 5). Many characters will be picked from the ballot, it's just that Bayonetta was fortunate enough to be picked to end DLC for Smash 3DS and Smash WiiU (alongside Corrin, Cloud). Characters who did well on the ballot are probably being saved for Smash 6, as it might seem a waste, business wise to have them all used in Smash 3DS/WiiU. There will probably be other unexpected and weird choices to be added, just depends on who is directing the next game. New characters tend to be what get people to buy the game, and Nintendo know that.

 

[Bowserlick]

What costumes came after the ballot? Those might be a preview into new characters in the next Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

What costumes came after the ballot? Those might be a preview into new characters in the next Smash.

After the ballot ended we got Ashley, Takamaru, Geno, Chocobo,Tails, Knuckles and Gil from Namco's Tower of Druaga

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Ashley, Takamaru, Geno, Chocobo,Tails, Knuckles and Gil from Namco's Tower of Druaga

Gill is obviously the overall ballot winner.

K. Rool was released before that?

 

[Kirbeh]

Gill is obviously the overall ballot winner.

K. Rool was released before that?

Yep, K. Rool was Wave 3 alongside Chrom, Lloyd, Samus, Flying Man and the Black Knight.

Overall though, I think consideration should be given to all those released during the ballot's run as opposed to just those released after it was closed. Though if iirc that covers all DLC Mii Costumes.

If we use the Mii costumes as indication of characters that may have been highly requested but passed on, then I suppose the following would be the likely contenders:

Takamaru - A character we know Sakurai has considered numerous times. Solid contender for the next retro character, since adding at least one per game since Melee has been a tradition of sorts.

Isabelle - A very popular, if not the most popular Animal Crossing character as things currently stand. No surprises there. I think it's plausible to think she may be upgraded from an Assist Trophy if they add another AC character.

Inkling - Included for promotional purposes, but at this point it's generally agreed that they're likely given how big of a success Splatoon was and continues to be.

King K. Rool - A character we know has been highly (or at least somewhat safely assume based on fan outcry) requested. Though where he stands on the development side of things is an unknown, but the fact they acknowledged him at all outside of the usual trophy was a bit surprising. Not going to hold my breath, but I hope it means something more.

Viridi - Very popular Kid Icarus character. Should we get a another rep, it wouldn't be surprising if it was.

Ashley - Very popular Wario Ware character. Same deal as Viridi and Isabelle.

Chrom and the Black Knight are also very popular characters, but I'd wager the next FE rep will be from a newer title as usual.

Third parties are tricky, and I personally don't think any of the third party Mii costumes are an indication of possible characters, with the exception of:

Geno - Very popular Mario character. We know he was considered at one point. (Back for Brawl iirc)

Llyod - Very popular Tales character.

and to a lesser extent Heihachi - Sakurai briefly considered him, but passed since Pac-Man was who he really wanted to include.

EDIT: I forgot Dunban, Flying Man and Toad.

Toad I feel is a 50/50. He's had a decent following throughout the years, and now many have warmed up to the idea if it comes in the form of Captain Toad. Or it could just be because Toad is a well known Mario character/species.

Dunban is a popular character, though like with FE, I'd wager a character from a newer Xenoblade title is the more likely candidate for another character.

Flying Man was more than likely thrown in for the fun of it. More speculation on my part is that they perhaps took the remnants of the idea for having a 3D model for it in Magicant and revived it as a costume.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Yep, K. Rool was Wave 3 alongside Chrom, Lloyd, Samus, Flying Man and the Black Knight.

Overall though, I think consideration should be given to all those released during the ballots run as opposed to just those released after it was closed. Though if iirc that covers all DLC Mii Costumes.

Nah, ballot opened when M2 and Lucas were released (April 1st) , so some costumes like Inklings were released before that

 

[Kirbeh]

Nah, ballot opened when M2 and Lucas were released (April 1st) , so some costumes like Inklings were released before that

The Ballot was opened on April 1, 2015 and Wave 1 of the DLC Mii Costumes was released on April 15, 2015.

That said at least the earlier releases, Waves 1 and 2, were planned before hand.

This is merely speculation, but I believe that Waves 3 and onward are the one's where the ballot would have been running long enough to have any influence. Wave 3 released four months into the ballot on July 31, 2015.

Then there's also K.K. Slider who was released on his own between Waves 2 and 3, being the only standalone costume. Though this was part of a promotion with 7-Eleven in Japan before it was released elsewhere for free.

 

[AEMehr]

So when was it said that Bayonetta wasn't the ballot winner? Never recall to read such a quote.

It was never outright stated, one can infer that is the case by how it was worded in the Nintendo Direct by the translator.

"Among the negotiable and realizable characters, Bayonetta was the number one choice worldwide."

She may have not won outright, but they thought Bayonetta worked the best for them.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I legitimately don't think Gil is a popular Namco pick.

Especially when other Namco characters are probably more relevant these days than him. Even if Tower of Druaga is regarded as a classic in Japan.

 

[Kirbeh]

I legitimately don't think Gil is a popular Namco pick.

Especially when other Namco characters are probably more relevant these days than him. Even if Tower of Druaga is regarded as a classic in Japan.

True, though WeirdChillFever was just joking. That aside, I'd like to see Druaga get more content if possible. A stage and a trophy or two would be interesting. I know it isn't likely at all, but it's something I'd like to see with other third party series that don't get in via characters.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

There are a few characters I can think of who could've been the true ballot winner, but they couldn't add due to legal or technical reasons.

Banjo
Sora
Snake
Ice Climbers
Goku
Or maybe a certain assist trophy or boss character won, but were dismissed for already haveing a set role in the game.

 

[Basty]

There are a few characters I can think of who could've been the true ballot winner, but they couldn't add due to legal or technical reasons.

Banjo
Sora
Snake
Ice Climbers
Goku
Or maybe a certain assist trophy or boss character won, but were dismissed for already haveing a set role in the game.

Dr. Kawashima :^)

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think Sora has a good chance of being the "real" ballot winner as he did have a Cloud-like following

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think the ballot will definitely play a hand in the choices of characters for a port. Because if they re-release Wii U with extra content they're going to want to warrant the hardcore fans purchasing another version of the same game on top of 3DS and Wii U. They won't really have to do that with the casual consumer as much because although 3DS sold well it didn't feel exceptional and most people who bought the 3DS probably didn't buy ANY DLC meaning that said consumer would be more than satisfied to shell out $60 for a Smash game with more content on their shiny new system. I mean you're probably a hardcore Smash fan if you own the Wii U version of the game. So of course Nintendo is going to throw the hardcore community a bone like they did with Mario Kart 8 Deluxe where they listened to what we had complained about in 8 and gave us exactly what we wanted and most people don't really mind paying full price for the game again just for that feature alone. I'm of course talking about battle mode. With Smash it's a bit different. Yeah, there was a lot of complaints about the lack of single player content but single player content isn't the big seller of the Smash games. That honor obviously goes to characters. I think we'll almost definitely get Wolf and Ice Climbers, and MAYBE Snake, as well as Inklings and another unspecified character. 5 seems like a very solid amount of characters even though it doesn't really stack up against the 7 DLC characters we got so there could very well be more and in fact I do find that rather likely meaning that characters like Takamaru, King K. Rool, Ridley, Isaac, etc could potentially be added in.

If it's a totally new game the story changes near entirely. With a new game we can't really predict the development schedule and thus can't really say whether or not certain characters will make it in or even return. With a Wii U Port you're guaranteed the full roster of the Wii U version and the DLC plus any new features that are added on top of those as Switch exclusives. With a new game they'd have to build a lot of assets from the ground up like character models, new stages, trophies, and more.

What I'm trying to say here is that I think the port of Smash Wii U is almost certainly a guarantee at this point. The big kicker is whether or not said port will be the Smash game of the Switch's life cycle. They could easily make it so if they add enough new content from the outset and then continue to support it into 2018-2019 with DLC; but this may cause some trouble on the home-front when people start noticing that the business strategy for certain games going forward are simply to enhance said game and re-release it alongside the new hardware as a sort of perceived lazy get out of jail free card by blaming the utter failure of the Wii U. If the Wii U port does come along I assume they won't go with the current naming system a la Smash for Nintendo Switch unless they are indeed intending on making this port the premier Switch Smash game. If they did it would stir up quite a bit of confusion in the event that the new, original Smash game for Switch rolls around. I really, really think the naming style of further Smash games should take the Mario Kart route with a numbered take on the franchise naming the next game Smash 5 (or 6 depending on your opinion) or reverting back to the subtitle ways of Melee and Brawl. Then again it isn't really out of Nintendo's proverbial mind to just take the game and literally name it Smash Wii U Deluxe which is just bad but not entirely impossible.

We're in a weird situation in the Smash games where we know a game is coming, soon. And we know quite a bit about said game if one theory comes true but then absolutely nothing if another comes true and this is all before the game is even officially announced. That's not even mentioning the fact that the Smash community is a rather divided one with some preferring competitive Melee over any future installment in the franchise meaning that the only way to truly appease those fans is with a re-release of THAT game with no other changes than maybe an online and a touch up on graphics. Two re-releases on one system isn't the best sign for a company but when the re-releases are as equally popular as Melee and Smash 4 it's hard to ignore the potential gigaton of money involved in those re-releases. And when that becomes the case why even bother with a brand new game at all? If you can just constantly build your profits off of two previous entries why even bother wasting resources on a new game when you can build the game up one generation release it on the next and reap the benefits without any real repercussions? Smash is sold by its characters and if that's all that matters then building from and established base is the best way to go. Smash is indeed a very strange franchise.

 

[Kirbeh]

Then again it isn't really out of Nintendo's proverbial mind to just take the game and literally name it Smash Wii U Deluxe which is just bad but not entirely impossible.

It'd probably be something worse like: new Super Smash Bros. for Wii U for Switch Deluxe

Jokes aside, I could see them just calling it Super Smash Bros. Deluxe and leaving it at. Either that or Super Smash Bros. for Switch to continue off of the 3DS/Wii U versions, followed by the next proper installment returning to Melee/Brawl's naming conventions or adopting something entirely new.

All the naming stuff aside, very well said. It's hard to say where they'll go in the future, but it'd be very strange to have two Smash games on one system so I'd have to agree in thinking that the port is all we'll get for the Switch. It's a rather weird, and likely poor spot to be in the way I see it. (Though having both is still certainly a possibility depending on much they decide to support the port.)

Many fans both casual and dedicated will likely be expecting a brand new title on the Switch eventually, and if we don't get that, it'll make many players upset.

If they do end up making another Smash on the Switch that also runs into it's own problems. If they release a port now, do they leave it as is or add new content and continue to support it for a little while to keep people interested? Should they focus on supporting the port or go straight into developing the new title? If they wait too long then a new Smash could release quite late in the Switch's life which could go either way. There'll be an enormous amount of people who own the Switch, but if they release too close to when the next generation starts it could end up hurting sales.

The Wii U's failure seems like its put Smash in particular in a very odd position, and there are a lot of ways they could go about it when it comes to both the potential port and next true installment.

Using the Wii U version as a base, they could turn the Switch port into a platform of sorts and continually add to it for several years. Or they could add a little like in MK8D to hold people over while they get to work on a brand new game and hope it gets finished/released during the middle of the current of generation.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ironically, some ports are worse than the originals. Super Mario Maker is an obvious example, as the 3DS port is actually worse than the original Wii U version for lacking the ability to upload courses online.

Anyway, after seeing how Mario Kart 8 Deluxe really messed up the character stat balancing, I'd hate to think about what a Smash Wii U port could end up doing to the fighter attributes; for an example, Dedede could get buffed drastically, while Cloud gets severely nerfed (even worse than what some people would actually want).

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Ironically, some ports are worse than the originals. Super Mario Maker is an obvious example, as the 3DS port is actually worse than the original Wii U version for lacking the ability to upload courses online.

Anyway, after seeing how Mario Kart 8 Deluxe really messed up the character stat balancing, I'd hate to think about what a Smash Wii U port could end up doing to the fighter attributes; for an example, Dedede could get buffed drastically, while Cloud gets severely nerfed (even worse than what some people would actually want).

Why would you hate DeDeDe getting buffed?

Do you also hate puppies?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why would you hate DeDeDe getting buffed?

Do you also hate puppies?

The thing is, in the case of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, the game greatly improves Battle Mode, but it heavily ruined the character stat balance that Mario Kart 8 got right.

I'd hate to see a dilemma like that occur with a Smash Wii U port, where buffs AND nerfs are made. Instead, focus on buffing the fighters who are struggling the most, and don't nerf anyone.