Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[A Distant Demon]

Also may I have A Distant Demon 's agreement for creating a new thread about veterans's movesets overhaul ideas?

Originally my stance was a firm "no," but based on the fact you're basically the 3rd person to ask, go ahead.

 

[Wolfie557]

Originally my stance was a firm "no," but based on the fact you're basically the 3rd person to ask, go ahead.

What about a fanart sharing thread by urs truly? idividual veteran/potential characters and smash crossover arts with sources.

 

[Chandeelure]

Reading old support threads made me want Ridley more...

Too bad Sakurai thinks he is too big, and that him not flying around freely would be wrong...

Like Charizard, a Flying type Pokemon, and Ganondorf having bad mobility in the air and one of them having one of the worse recoveries in the game.
Or Corrin's dragon form looking very small instead of giant like in Fates.
Or Luigi acting gloomy and doing stupid poses that he literally never does outside of Smash.
Or Mario being angry and edgy all the time instead of being happy and friendly.
Or Wario not having any move to reference Wario Land and acting like a generic stupid and gross Homer Simpson.
Or Lucina being unnecessarily cocky and rude, even insulting Marth.
Or Pit and Dark Pit using their useless wings to actually "jump" in the air, having better recoveries that some characters that can actually fly or levitate without help.
Or Bowser being and mindless monster and DK being a generic gorilla.
Or Jigglypuff using Rest as a powerful and weird attack that makes no sense.
Or Olimar being huge and not having a voice.
Or Little Mac attacking with single extremely powerful punches instead of a lot of weak ones.
Or Lucario just throwing blue smoke in a lot of its attacks instead of actually using martial arts.
Or Zero Suit Samus using weapons that never appeared in Metroid games.
Or Bowser Jr's Clown Car not being able to fly.
Or Marth being an arrogant pretty boy.
Or Shulk having wrong names in his Monado Arts.
Or Ganondorf still being a clone of Captain Falcon with no magic and/or weapon.
Or Miis not being able to be selected online because it could be offensive, but custom names with insults are fine.

Really guys, can you imagine Ridley being as big or just a little bigger than Bowser AND also having limited jumps, that would truly ruin everything about the character and would just be wrong.

 

[Opossum]

Reading old support threads made me want Ridley more...

Too bad Sakurai thinks he is too big, and that him not flying around freely would be wrong...

Like Charizard, a Flying type Pokemon, and Ganondorf having bad mobility in the air and one of them having one of the worse recoveries in the game.
Or Corrin's dragon form looking very small instead of giant like in Fates.
Or Luigi acting gloomy and doing stupid poses that he literally never does outside of Smash.
Or Mario being angry and edgy all the time instead of being happy and friendly.
Or Wario not having any move to reference Wario Land and acting like a generic stupid and gross Homer Simpson.
Or Lucina being unnecessarily cocky and rude, even insulting Marth.
Or Pit and Dark Pit using their useless wings to actually "jump" in the air, having better recoveries that some characters that can actually fly or levitate without help.
Or Bowser being and mindless monster and DK being a generic gorilla.
Or Jigglypuff using Rest as a powerful and weird attack that makes no sense.
Or Olimar being huge and not having a voice.
Or Little Mac attacking with single extremely powerful punches instead of a lot of weak ones.
Or Lucario just throwing blue smoke in a lot of its attacks instead of actually using martial arts.
Or Zero Suit Samus using weapons that never appeared in Metroid games.
Or Bowser Jr's Clown Car not being able to fly.
Or Marth being an arrogant pretty boy.
Or Shulk having wrong names in his Monado Arts.
Or Ganondorf still being a clone of Captain Falcon with no magic and/or weapon.
Or Miis not being able to be selected online because it could be offensive, but custom names with insults are fine.

Really guys, can you imagine Ridley being as big or just a little bigger than Bowser AND also having limited jumps, that would truly ruin everything about the character and would just be wrong.

To be fair one of Luigi's poses is from the Mario and Luigi series, so they're not ALL made up.

 

[Chandeelure]

To be fair one of Luigi's poses is from the Mario and Luigi series, so they're not ALL made up.

Yeah haha, I was mostly referring to this one:

EDIT: And I didn't even say all XD

 

[Luminario]

Reading old support threads made me want Ridley more...

Too bad Sakurai thinks he is too big, and that him not flying around freely would be wrong...

Like Charizard, a Flying type Pokemon, and Ganondorf having bad mobility in the air and one of them having one of the worse recoveries in the game.
Or Corrin's dragon form looking very small instead of giant like in Fates.
Or Luigi acting gloomy and doing stupid poses that he literally never does outside of Smash.
Or Mario being angry and edgy all the time instead of being happy and friendly.
Or Wario not having any move to reference Wario Land and acting like a generic stupid and gross Homer Simpson.
Or Lucina being unnecessarily cocky and rude, even insulting Marth.
Or Pit and Dark Pit using their useless wings to actually "jump" in the air, having better recoveries that some characters that can actually fly or levitate without help.
Or Bowser being and mindless monster and DK being a generic gorilla.
Or Jigglypuff using Rest as a powerful and weird attack that makes no sense.
Or Olimar being huge and not having a voice.
Or Little Mac attacking with single extremely powerful punches instead of a lot of weak ones.
Or Lucario just throwing blue smoke in a lot of its attacks instead of actually using martial arts.
Or Zero Suit Samus using weapons that never appeared in Metroid games.
Or Bowser Jr's Clown Car not being able to fly.
Or Marth being an arrogant pretty boy.
Or Shulk having wrong names in his Monado Arts.
Or Ganondorf still being a clone of Captain Falcon with no magic and/or weapon.
Or Miis not being able to be selected online because it could be offensive, but custom names with insults are fine.

Really guys, can you imagine Ridley being as big or just a little bigger than Bowser AND also having limited jumps, that would truly ruin everything about the character and would just be wrong.

I don't think it's just about the size. Ridley vicious design doesn't lend well to the whimsical nature of playable Smash characters. As serious characters like Samus or Ganondorf can have their goofy moments with a wide variety of facial expressions, Ridley's soulless eyes and xenomorph design could make him out of place as a playable fighter to which it's less "look at this serious character doing funny things~" and more "look at this character clearly out of place doing funny things". His design makes him seem like he'd be more at home in the Switch version of Mortal Kombat than Smash.
I don't want it to seem like I don't want Ridley in Smash, as he's obviously the most wanted for Metroid reps, but can you actually look at Ridley and see him wildly swinging a comical hammer? or with a flower on his head? These are the things that I'd say hold back Ridley the most.

 

[Wolfie557]

I don't think it's just about the size. Ridley vicious design doesn't lend well to the whimsical nature of playable Smash characters. As serious characters like Samus or Ganondorf can have their goofy moments with a wide variety of facial expressions, Ridley's soulless eyes and xenomorph design could make him out of place as a playable fighter to which it's less "look at this serious character doing funny things~" and more "look at this character clearly out of place doing funny things". His design makes him seem like he'd be more at home in the Switch version of Mortal Kombat than Smash.
I don't want it to seem like I don't want Ridley in Smash, as he's obviously the most wanted for Metroid reps, but can you actually look at Ridley and see him wildly swinging a comical hammer? or with a flower on his head? These are the things that I'd say hold back Ridley the most.

Yeah, I can.

Its a comical flower on Ridleys scary head.

 

[Chandeelure]

I don't think it's just about the size. Ridley vicious design doesn't lend well to the whimsical nature of playable Smash characters. As serious characters like Samus or Ganondorf can have their goofy moments with a wide variety of facial expressions, Ridley's soulless eyes and xenomorph design could make him out of place as a playable fighter to which it's less "look at this serious character doing funny things~" and more "look at this character clearly out of place doing funny things". His design makes him seem like he'd be more at home in the Switch version of Mortal Kombat than Smash.
I don't want it to seem like I don't want Ridley in Smash, as he's obviously the most wanted for Metroid reps, but can you actually look at Ridley and see him wildly swinging a comical hammer? or with a flower on his head? These are the things that I'd say hold back Ridley the most.

Yeah, I actually can imagine Ridley doing all those things.

Like you said, Ganondorf (the king of evil, the owner of the triforce of power and literally one of the most serious Nintendo characters) can do all those things, and even being more ridiculous thanks to the fact that he is a clone and a terrible character in basically all the Smash games.

So... eh.

 

[Deleted member]

I always thought Ridley should get a and have a new humanoid form in a future Metroid game which would work fine in Smash.

And that's the moment I invoke @GoldenYuiitusin and his Mysterious Creature thesis.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Like you said, Ganondorf (the king of evil, the owner of the triforce of power and literally one of the most serious Nintendo characters) can do all those things, and even being more ridiculous thanks to the fact that he is a clone and a terrible character in basically all the Smash games.

So... eh.

Melee Ganondorf is an exception, as he had only 5 disadvantageous match-ups in the competitive scene. Too bad that he got hammered hard in Brawl, while Smash 3DS / Wii U didn't exactly help him much with bouncing back from his terrible Brawl days.

Fixing up Dark Dive so that it delivers better knockback would be a good start to improving Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

I always thought Ridley should get a and have a new humanoid form in a future Metroid game which would work fine in Smash.

And that's the moment I invoke @GoldenYuiitusin and his Mysterious Creature thesis.

You're going to have to refresh my memory on exactly what I said, bro.

I do vaguely remember discussing about a possible "Lesser Ridley" form that's more vaguely humanoid while still draconic. In a similar vein to Disney's Maleficent.

 

[A Distant Demon]

What about a fanart sharing thread by urs truly? idividual veteran/potential characters and smash crossover arts with sources.

Sorry but im going to have to say no that one since it has nothing to do with character speculation.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Like you said, Ganondorf (the king of evil, the owner of the triforce of power and literally one of the most serious Nintendo characters) can do all those things, and even being more ridiculous thanks to the fact that he is a clone and a terrible character in basically all the Smash games.

His running animation from Brawl onward is just ridiculous.

 

[Chandeelure]

His running animation from Brawl onward is just ridiculous.

Yeah, looks weird, like an old man or I don't know, it looks too correct, like Wii Fit Trainer's.
Not ready for battle.

Also it looks like some of his attack animations break his legs.

 

[Luminario]

Yeah, looks weird, like an old man or I don't know, it looks too correct, like Wii Fit Trainer's.
Not ready for battle.

Also it looks like some of his attack animations break his legs.

what attack is he even doing there?
Couldn't they just give him a slow hover instead for a walk? Like how he hovers is OoT?

 

[Schnee117]

Plenty of characters have awkward animations when you pause on particular frames.

Palutena using a hammer:

Spoiler

I don't think human arms work that way but she's a Goddess so whatever.

what attack is he even doing there?
Couldn't they just give him a slow hover instead for a walk? Like how he hovers is OoT?

I think it's supposed to be his Wizard's Foot judging by how the Dark energy is coming from his right foot which is behind his right hand.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

His running animation from Brawl onward is just ridiculous.

He tries hard to run, but can't even outrun Diddy Kong's walking. At least he's not Robin slow in the running department.

what attack is he even doing there?
Couldn't they just give him a slow hover instead for a walk? Like how he hovers is OoT?

That's supposed to be the start-up period for Wizard's Foot.

 

[Zem-raj]

I don't think it's just about the size. Ridley vicious design doesn't lend well to the whimsical nature of playable Smash characters. As serious characters like Samus or Ganondorf can have their goofy moments with a wide variety of facial expressions, Ridley's soulless eyes and xenomorph design could make him out of place as a playable fighter to which it's less "look at this serious character doing funny things~" and more "look at this character clearly out of place doing funny things". His design makes him seem like he'd be more at home in the Switch version of Mortal Kombat than Smash.
I don't want it to seem like I don't want Ridley in Smash, as he's obviously the most wanted for Metroid reps, but can you actually look at Ridley and see him wildly swinging a comical hammer? or with a flower on his head? These are the things that I'd say hold back Ridley the most.

Well, Nintendo did this in Miitomo last year:

There are five versions: standard, red, green, cyan, black.

No-one expected this. No one.

Perhaps making a Smash version that incorporates the essential design features would be a compromise. The Brawl Ridley model was slightly goofy looking, but it's more suitable overall compared to Other M's one. What's also needed is a play style that will work for him that doesn't take too much from his character, and doesn't break the game/make it unbalanced.

I don't like seeing a serious character like Ganondorf wildly swinging a comical hammer, or with a flower on his head, or with rabbit ears on. But it's Smash, it's meant to be a laugh. It's not canon either. Keep "serious" stuff for their own franchises.

 

[Opossum]

His running animation from Brawl onward is just ridiculous.

How dare you criticize Ganondorf and his leisurely jog.

 

[Luminario]

Well, Nintendo did this in Miitomo last year:

There are five versions: standard, red, green, cyan, black.

No-one expected this. No one.

Perhaps making a Smash version that incorporates the essential design features would be a compromise. The Brawl Ridley model was slightly goofy looking, but it's more suitable overall compared to Other M's one. What's also needed is a play style that will work for him that doesn't take too much from his character, and doesn't break the game/make it unbalanced.

I don't like seeing a serious character like Ganondorf wildly swinging a comical hammer, or with a flower on his head, or with rabbit ears on. But it's Smash, it's meant to be a laugh. It's not canon either. Keep "serious" stuff for their own franchises.

Okay, that is actually adorable. I fully support Chibi Ridley as playable.
I didn't wanna make it seem like Ridley would never be added to Smash, only that his vicious design could be one of the major reasons as to why he's not been added yet instead of just his size, cause he looks like one of his grab attacks will take inspiration straight out of that scene in Aliens where the queen jabs her tail spike through the android and rips him apart.
Seeing Ridley that small and cute actually helps me visualise him in Smash more, cause he's less "killer alien" and more "angry purple chicken". That actually brings up a good question: how far are you willing to let them go with making Ridley less vicious and more goofy? Would it be the middle ground between Chibi Ridley up there and regular Ridley or one more than the other?

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

I think we should be able to listen to any music during the menu.

I think the "Sounds" option in the "Vault" menu allow a temporary get around for this, but it'll go back to whatever menu the game warranted for this in the Wii U if you go into certain menus or character select.

I think that's a fine idea, though I imagine there'd be some issues with third party series and a bit of backlash from fans. I'm leaning more in favor of it, but at the same time I do feel like it'd be a little weird and feel less like Smash if that makes any sense. In the end though since it'd be an optional customization feature, I'd support that.

A similar but even more unlikely idea I had was for each menu to have a simple, looping, animated illustration appropriate to the particular item selected (with an accompanying track).

Imagine the actual menu is a bar on the side where you scroll down whatever options they have with the rest of the screen being taken up by the image.

So highlighting an Adventure Mode (provided we got one) would have something like the Mario Bros., Link and Toon Link aboard the King of Red Lions with a simple animation on the water and background to make it seem like they're moving along while the Great Sea remix plays.

It keeps with the crossover theme of Smash while making the menus more interesting/dynamic. Probably a lot more work than they'd be willing to put into it though.

I still like my idea, but I guess I may have to temper some ideas I got (I really don't want to, I'll admit.). I can endure it, though. At this point, I'd like some good newcomer selections, current characters to be balanced and/or improved , interfaces being better built, and overall experience to be better.

I can see the issue with the third parties, but backlash? For an idea about an optional and interchangeable menus? I don't see how it would be anything, but nitpicking how the possible menu designs may not mesh well or it is not from the said series. I could see it reduced to a "skin" level with the same concepts as my idea presented minus "It feels like the menu designs are taken from their home franchise," feeling.

 

[Kirbeh]

I think the "Sounds" option in the "Vault" menu allow a temporary get around for this, but it'll go back to whatever menu the game warranted for this in the Wii U if you go into certain menus or character select.



I still like my idea, but I guess I may have to temper some ideas I got (I really don't want to, I'll admit.). I can endure it, though. At this point, I'd like some good newcomer selections, current characters to be balanced and/orimproved , interfaces being better built, and overall experience to be better.

I can see the issue with the third parties, but backlash? For an idea about an optional and interchangeable menus? I don't see how it would be anything, but nitpicking how the possible menu designs may not mesh well or it is not from the said series. I could see it reduced to a "skin" level with the same concepts as my idea presented minus "It feels like the menu designs are taken from their home franchise," feeling.

My point on backlash was more of a general thing I suppose. There's always going to be someone upset over these things, even with optional content/features. In the end I don't think it actually matters, you can't please everyone. I'm all for the idea myself. Guess I just ended up stating the obvious.

 

[Deleted member]

Reading old support threads made me want Ridley more...

Too bad Sakurai thinks he is too big, and that him not flying around freely would be wrong...

I am predicting a bunch of half-baked comparison points based on this generalized take on what was said....

Like Charizard, a Flying type Pokemon, and Ganondorf having bad mobility in the air and one of them having one of the worse recoveries in the game.

....and so it begins. Though at least the Charizard part is rather valid.
However, just like Meta Knight, the ONLY issue with them was flight. There was more with Ridley in addition to it.
Aside from that, it should be pointed out that the likes of Charizard and Meta Knight primarily fight on the ground while Ridley primarily fights in the air. Restricting flight on Ridley is more drastic than restricting flight on the other two.

In Ganondorf's case, however....yeah, he only got in as a late clone in Melee to help beef up the roster based on the Spaceworld Demo Ganondorf having a similar build to Captain Falcon and his overall popularity. Being made to match the source material wasn't exactly something that was important.

It's unwise to use Ganondorf as a comparison point despite his and Ridley's situations being very different (unless people are asking for some weird Charizard clone and I'm out of the loop), yet everyone seems to do so for some reason.

Or Corrin's dragon form looking very small instead of giant like in Fates.

Giant in cutscene, not so giant in-game when using Dragon Fang.
Smash uses the in-game take.

Not only that, but the full form is only used in like two VERY BRIEF attacks outside the cinematic Final Smash. Who bloody cares in the first place?

Or Luigi acting gloomy and doing stupid poses that he literally never does outside of Smash.

Gloomy....you mean like in Luigi's Mansion?
And oh no, Luigi makes poses/movements that he doesn't do outside of Smash......just like everyone else in the goddamn game. -gasp-

Or Mario being angry and edgy all the time instead of being happy and friendly.

Because he should totally be super happy and friendly while trying to beat the crap out of everyone.
Mario's not always cheerful. There are times where he gets angry and competitive. This is one of those times.

Or Wario not having any move to reference Wario Land and acting like a generic stupid and gross Homer Simpson.

Wario's always been a moronic slob. And just because Wario doesn't reference Wario Land much (when prime focus is on WarioWare anyway...) doesn't mean he isn't "Wario".

Or Lucina being unnecessarily cocky and rude, even insulting Marth.

Not a valid point. This is an error on the localization team.

Or Pit and Dark Pit using their useless wings to actually "jump" in the air, having better recoveries that some characters that can actually fly or levitate without help.

It was only stated that they can't fly with their wings due to being too small (at least that was the reason for Pit in the original Kid Icarus). Their double jumps aren't flight, though. If anything, those are more or less failed attempts to fly.

Or Bowser being and mindless monster and DK being a generic gorilla.

Except, they're not? Just because they retain more "realistic" roars and grunts as opposed to sounding like Spike from Tom & Jerry trying to sound like a dinosaur or Scooby-Doo trying to sound like an ape doesn't mean they're being portrayed as mindless or generic.

I may agree that it's time to let go of the past where Bowser and DK actually did use "realistic" roars and grunts and keep up with modern Mario, but this comparison is both unfounded and irrelevant.

Or Jigglypuff using Rest as a powerful and weird attack that makes no sense.]

And this choice of randomness is comparable to the Ridley situation.....how exactly?

Or Olimar being huge and not having a voice.

Yes, because being able to make noises in Pikmin 3 to simulate talking is SO important to his character that's a disgrace to leave out.
The only valid point here is the size change. But that's only relevant to how he compares to the other franchises' content. Within everything Pikmin related, he's still tiny. Literally EVERYTHING about Pikmin was scaled up for Smash, not just Olimar himself.

Or Little Mac attacking with single extremely powerful punches instead of a lot of weak ones.

.....he does both in Smash. Like, what point are you even trying to make here?

Or Lucario just throwing blue smoke in a lot of its attacks instead of actually using martial arts.

a. When Lucario was actually decided for Brawl, all that was available to work with was the overall concept of what Lucario is about; a creature that manipulates Aura for combat. And even then, all Lucario ever did in combat in his movie was spam Aura Spheres. The concept of Lucario fighting using straight martial arts not augmented by Aura wasn't established until AFTER Brawl.
b. It actually does use martial arts in Smash. They're just backed by aura energy. Seriously. Actually look at Lucario's animations.

Or Zero Suit Samus using weapons that never appeared in Metroid games.

Giving a character something =/= taking away something from a character.

Or Bowser Jr's Clown Car not being able to fly.

Probably the only completely valid counter you've made this entire rant other than Charizard. Though there's the counter to that in that while the ONLY issue the Clown Car had was having to not let it fly, Ridley had more than just flight being an issue for him. If it was the only issue, it wouldn't have BEEN an issue.

Or Marth being an arrogant pretty boy.

He was arrogant in the original games. Look it up.

Or Shulk having wrong names in his Monado Arts.

"Wrong" names? You're not talking about how he has original Arts meant for specific Smash context, are you?

Or Ganondorf still being a clone of Captain Falcon with no magic and/or weapon.

Aside from the fact that he does use magic, just not in the manner you WANT him to, here's the point I want to address.
People complain about how Ganondorf has been portrayed. Why should that be turned around and used as justification in portraying Ridley "improperly" for the sake of including him as a fighter, then?

Honestly, nobody wins with Ridley. If Sakurai doesn't include him as a fighter, the fanbase is going to *****. If he does include him as a fighter.....the fanbase is STILL going to ***** for one reason or another because they don't like how he ended up.

Or Miis not being able to be selected online because it could be offensive, but custom names with insults are fine.

Ok, this is an asinine counter that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. At this point you're just out of ideas for an excuse.

Really guys, can you imagine Ridley being as big or just a little bigger than Bowser AND also having limited jumps, that would truly ruin everything about the character and would just be wrong.

Limited jumps are one thing since everyone's got to be restricted in that regard, but simply taking a model of Ridley and shrinking it to Bowser's size is completely stupid and would not work.

Note, I'm not saying Ridley shouldn't be playable because lulztoobig. I'm saying that Sakurai had a valid point in that there would be too many drastic changes that need to be done to Ridley's core design to make him function properly as a fighter and be balanced to the point that it doesn't match the source material.
And while I am one of the few that can actually RESPECT the decision to not make him a fighter, I can also disagree with the notion that he shouldn't be one. Even if Ridley has to be heavily tweaked to work, I feel it'd be worth it.
Give him a Smash-original design that captures what he's about while still looking like something that one could reasonably see Samus locked in combat with within the context of the Metroid series. Even if it means going for a more wyvern-based design to get around the issues of the wingspan being too large.

 

[Luminario]

I am predicting a bunch of half-baked comparison points based on this generalized take on what was said....


....and so it begins. Though at least the Charizard part is rather valid.
However, just like Meta Knight, the ONLY issue with them was flight. There was more with Ridley in addition to it.
Aside from that, it should be pointed out that the likes of Charizard and Meta Knight primarily fight on the ground while Ridley primarily fights in the air. Restricting flight on Ridley is more drastic than restricting flight on the other two.

In Ganondorf's case, however....yeah, he only got in as a late clone in Melee to help beef up the roster based on the Spaceworld Demo Ganondorf having a similar build to Captain Falcon and his overall popularity. Being made to match the source material wasn't exactly something that was important.

It's unwise to use Ganondorf as a comparison point despite his and Ridley's situations being very different (unless people are asking for some weird Charizard clone and I'm out of the loop), yet everyone seems to do so for some reason.


Giant in cutscene, not so giant in-game when using Dragon Fang.
Smash uses the in-game take.

Not only that, but the full form is only used in like two VERY BRIEF attacks outside the cinematic Final Smash. Who bloody cares in the first place?


Gloomy....you mean like in Luigi's Mansion?
And oh no, Luigi makes poses/movements that he doesn't do outside of Smash......just like everyone else in the goddamn game. -gasp-


Because he should totally be super happy and friendly while trying to beat the crap out of everyone.
Mario's not always cheerful. There are times where he gets angry and competitive. This is one of those times.


Wario's always been a moronic slob. And just because Wario doesn't reference Wario Land much (when prime focus is on WarioWare anyway...) doesn't mean he isn't "Wario".


Not a valid point. This is an error on the localization team.



It was only stated that they can't fly with their wings due to being too small (at least that was the reason for Pit in the original Kid Icarus). Their double jumps aren't flight, though. If anything, those are more or less failed attempts to fly.



Except, they're not? Just because they retain more "realistic" roars and grunts as opposed to sounding like Spike from Tom & Jerry trying to sound like a dinosaur or Scooby-Doo trying to sound like an ape doesn't mean they're being portrayed as mindless or generic.

I may agree that it's time to let go of the past where Bowser and DK actually did use "realistic" roars and grunts and keep up with modern Mario, but this comparison is both unfounded and irrelevant.



And this choice of randomness is comparable to the Ridley situation.....how exactly?




Yes, because being able to make noises in Pikmin 3 to simulate talking is SO important to his character that's a disgrace to leave out.
The only valid point here is the size change. But that's only relevant to how he compares to the other franchises' content. Within everything Pikmin related, he's still tiny. Literally EVERYTHING about Pikmin was scaled up for Smash, not just Olimar himself.



.....he does both in Smash. Like, what point are you even trying to make here?


a. When Lucario was actually decided for Brawl, all that was available to work with was the overall concept of what Lucario is about; a creature that manipulates Aura for combat. And even then, all Lucario ever did in combat in his movie was spam Aura Spheres. The concept of Lucario fighting using straight martial arts not augmented by Aura wasn't established until AFTER Brawl.
b. It actually does use martial arts in Smash. They're just backed by aura energy. Seriously. Actually look at Lucario's animations.


Giving a character something =/= taking away something from a character.




Probably the only completely valid counter you've made this entire rant other than Charizard. Though there's the counter to that in that while the ONLY issue the Clown Car had was having to not let it fly, Ridley had more than just flight being an issue for him. If it was the only issue, it wouldn't have BEEN an issue.


He was arrogant in the original games. Look it up.


"Wrong" names? You're not talking about how he has original Arts meant for specific Smash context, are you?


Aside from the fact that he does use magic, just not in the manner you WANT him to, here's the point I want to address.
People complain about how Ganondorf has been portrayed. Why should that be turned around and used as justification in portraying Ridley "improperly" for the sake of including him as a fighter, then?

Honestly, nobody wins with Ridley. If Sakurai doesn't include him as a fighter, the fanbase is going to *****. If he does include him as a fighter.....the fanbase is STILL going to ***** for one reason or another because they don't like how he ended up.



Ok, this is an asinine counter that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. At this point you're just out of ideas for an excuse.


Limited jumps are one thing since everyone's got to be restricted in that regard, but simply taking a model of Ridley and shrinking it to Bowser's size is completely stupid and would not work.

Note, I'm not saying Ridley shouldn't be playable because lulztoobig. I'm saying that Sakurai had a valid point in that there would be too many drastic changes that need to be done to Ridley's core design to make him function properly as a fighter and be balanced to the point that it doesn't match the source material.
And while I am one of the few that can actually RESPECT the decision to not make him a fighter, I can also disagree with the notion that he shouldn't be one. Even if Ridley has to be heavily tweaked to work, I feel it'd be worth it.
Give him a Smash-original design that captures what he's about while still looking like something that one could reasonably see Samus locked in combat with within the context of the Metroid series. Even if it means going for a more wyvern-based design to get around the issues of the wingspan being too large.
View attachment 128587

Would that be the Lesser Ridley design you mentioned? I'd say something like that would definitely work but it might need to pop up in an actual Metroid game first in order to be accepted by the general fanbase of both Smash and Metroid.
I really liked the Maleficent styled Ridley idea you mentioned too. That form could pop up in an actual Metroid game where Ridley is manipulating the Galactic Federation before turning back to his true self around the endgame. Either way, both ideas bypass the problems of adding Ridley while sacrificing his iconic design, so would it be worth it to get playable Ridley in the game?

 

[Deleted member]

Would that be the Lesser Ridley design you mentioned? I'd say something like that would definitely work but it might need to pop up in an actual Metroid game first in order to be accepted by the general fanbase of both Smash and Metroid.
I really liked the Maleficent styled Ridley idea you mentioned too. That form could pop up in an actual Metroid game where Ridley is manipulating the Galactic Federation before turning back to his true self around the endgame. Either way, both ideas bypass the problems of adding Ridley while sacrificing his iconic design, so would it be worth it to get playable Ridley in the game?

Actually no. The "Lesser Ridley" idea was something else.

This is actually concept art from Zero Mission for a side Ridley form. Possibly a rebirth since it appears to be labeled "Ridley-2".

 

[Chandeelure]

I am predicting a bunch of half-baked comparison points based on this generalized take on what was said....


....and so it begins. Though at least the Charizard part is rather valid.
However, just like Meta Knight, the ONLY issue with them was flight. There was more with Ridley in addition to it.
Aside from that, it should be pointed out that the likes of Charizard and Meta Knight primarily fight on the ground while Ridley primarily fights in the air. Restricting flight on Ridley is more drastic than restricting flight on the other two.

In Ganondorf's case, however....yeah, he only got in as a late clone in Melee to help beef up the roster based on the Spaceworld Demo Ganondorf having a similar build to Captain Falcon and his overall popularity. Being made to match the source material wasn't exactly something that was important.

It's unwise to use Ganondorf as a comparison point despite his and Ridley's situations being very different (unless people are asking for some weird Charizard clone and I'm out of the loop), yet everyone seems to do so for some reason.


Giant in cutscene, not so giant in-game when using Dragon Fang.
Smash uses the in-game take.

Not only that, but the full form is only used in like two VERY BRIEF attacks outside the cinematic Final Smash. Who bloody cares in the first place?


Gloomy....you mean like in Luigi's Mansion?
And oh no, Luigi makes poses/movements that he doesn't do outside of Smash......just like everyone else in the goddamn game. -gasp-


Because he should totally be super happy and friendly while trying to beat the crap out of everyone.
Mario's not always cheerful. There are times where he gets angry and competitive. This is one of those times.


Wario's always been a moronic slob. And just because Wario doesn't reference Wario Land much (when prime focus is on WarioWare anyway...) doesn't mean he isn't "Wario".


Not a valid point. This is an error on the localization team.



It was only stated that they can't fly with their wings due to being too small (at least that was the reason for Pit in the original Kid Icarus). Their double jumps aren't flight, though. If anything, those are more or less failed attempts to fly.



Except, they're not? Just because they retain more "realistic" roars and grunts as opposed to sounding like Spike from Tom & Jerry trying to sound like a dinosaur or Scooby-Doo trying to sound like an ape doesn't mean they're being portrayed as mindless or generic.

I may agree that it's time to let go of the past where Bowser and DK actually did use "realistic" roars and grunts and keep up with modern Mario, but this comparison is both unfounded and irrelevant.



And this choice of randomness is comparable to the Ridley situation.....how exactly?




Yes, because being able to make noises in Pikmin 3 to simulate talking is SO important to his character that's a disgrace to leave out.
The only valid point here is the size change. But that's only relevant to how he compares to the other franchises' content. Within everything Pikmin related, he's still tiny. Literally EVERYTHING about Pikmin was scaled up for Smash, not just Olimar himself.



.....he does both in Smash. Like, what point are you even trying to make here?


a. When Lucario was actually decided for Brawl, all that was available to work with was the overall concept of what Lucario is about; a creature that manipulates Aura for combat. And even then, all Lucario ever did in combat in his movie was spam Aura Spheres. The concept of Lucario fighting using straight martial arts not augmented by Aura wasn't established until AFTER Brawl.
b. It actually does use martial arts in Smash. They're just backed by aura energy. Seriously. Actually look at Lucario's animations.


Giving a character something =/= taking away something from a character.




Probably the only completely valid counter you've made this entire rant other than Charizard. Though there's the counter to that in that while the ONLY issue the Clown Car had was having to not let it fly, Ridley had more than just flight being an issue for him. If it was the only issue, it wouldn't have BEEN an issue.


He was arrogant in the original games. Look it up.


"Wrong" names? You're not talking about how he has original Arts meant for specific Smash context, are you?


Aside from the fact that he does use magic, just not in the manner you WANT him to, here's the point I want to address.
People complain about how Ganondorf has been portrayed. Why should that be turned around and used as justification in portraying Ridley "improperly" for the sake of including him as a fighter, then?

Honestly, nobody wins with Ridley. If Sakurai doesn't include him as a fighter, the fanbase is going to *****. If he does include him as a fighter.....the fanbase is STILL going to ***** for one reason or another because they don't like how he ended up.



Ok, this is an asinine counter that is completely irrelevant to the point at hand. At this point you're just out of ideas for an excuse.


Limited jumps are one thing since everyone's got to be restricted in that regard, but simply taking a model of Ridley and shrinking it to Bowser's size is completely stupid and would not work.

Note, I'm not saying Ridley shouldn't be playable because lulztoobig. I'm saying that Sakurai had a valid point in that there would be too many drastic changes that need to be done to Ridley's core design to make him function properly as a fighter and be balanced to the point that it doesn't match the source material.
And while I am one of the few that can actually RESPECT the decision to not make him a fighter, I can also disagree with the notion that he shouldn't be one. Even if Ridley has to be heavily tweaked to work, I feel it'd be worth it.
Give him a Smash-original design that captures what he's about while still looking like something that one could reasonably see Samus locked in combat with within the context of the Metroid series. Even if it means going for a more wyvern-based design to get around the issues of the wingspan being too large.
View attachment 128587

And I am predicting a giant wall of text... ugh, I was right.

OK...


"Aside from that, it should be pointed out that the likes of Charizard and Meta Knight primarily fight on the ground while Ridley primarily fights in the air. Restricting flight on Ridley is more drastic than restricting flight on the other two."

First, those characters fight primarily on the ground?
Both use the ground as much as the air and sometimes fight more in the air, almost the only thing Charizard does in the anime is fly and shoot flamethrowers in the air and then end the thing with a Seismic Toss. Even its sprites in the new games are flying all the time, even the Mega that is not a Flying type.
Plus, giving the character 4 or 5 jumps and good air speed is enough to make him an aerial fighter, Ridley doesn't need to be in the air all the time, he is capable to fight in the ground, like in Other M.

"In Ganondorf's case, however....yeah, he only got in as a late clone in Melee to help beef up the roster based on the Spaceworld Demo Ganondorf having a similar build to Captain Falcon and his overall popularity. Being made to match the source material wasn't exactly something that was important."
OK, sorry, but that was more than a decade ago and they changed nothing about Ganondorf, one of the most important characters of one of the most important Nintendo franchises.
Ganondorf has a variety of powers and one of them is levitation, I don't see that represented in Smash at all, he has literally the worst double jump and one of the worse air speeds. And no, that electric hug represents nothing.

"Giant in cutscene, not so giant in-game when using Dragon Fang.
Smash uses the in-game take.
Not only that, but the full form is only used in like two VERY BRIEF attacks outside the cinematic Final Smash. Who bloody cares in the first place?"
Yeah, still giant, it doesn't matter if it is a cutscene or not, that's the correct size.
It's used for three attacks, not two.

"Gloomy....you mean like in Luigi's Mansion?
And oh no, Luigi makes poses/movements that he doesn't do outside of Smash......just like everyone else in the goddamn game. -gasp-"
Luigi being Gloomy in Smash is much more exaggerated and the situation is completely different.
OK, lol? Are you comparing something like Marth touching his chest, Jigglypuff spinning or Peach singing (a.k.a. things that make some sense) to Luigi literally doing a pose that is a reference to nothing, a pose that is not just a normal pose, but it's also used for his taunt, victory animation and even Smash amiibo?

"Because he should totally be super happy and friendly while trying to beat the crap out of everyone.
Mario's not always cheerful. There are times where he gets angry and competitive. This is one of those times."
Yeah, like in Mario Kart, being happy in a fast race while throwing bombs at his enemies.
I know Mario is not happy all the time, but in Smash he is mad all the time, even when he says wahoo or something he sounds mad, lol.

"Wario's always been a moronic slob. And just because Wario doesn't reference Wario Land much (when prime focus is on WarioWare anyway...) doesn't mean he isn't "Wario".
Yeah, yeah I know all that about Wario's portrayal in some Japan things, but him representing like 50% or less of his personality is not fine, the Wario from Smash doesn't show his strenght, doesn't flex, doesn't show courage or doesn't show greediness, he just scratches his butt, makes silly moves and farts.

"Not a valid point. This is an error on the localization team."
Yeah, she has a different tone in japanese, but still says the same lines.

"It was only stated that they can't fly with their wings due to being too small (at least that was the reason for Pit in the original Kid Icarus). Their double jumps aren't flight, though. If anything, those are more or less failed attempts to fly."
Wow, look like their failed attempts are so good that they fly more than Charizard and Bowser Jr.! ... c'mon.

"Except, they're not? Just because they retain more "realistic" roars and grunts as opposed to sounding like Spike from Tom & Jerry trying to sound like a dinosaur or Scooby-Doo trying to sound like an ape doesn't mean they're being portrayed as mindless or generic."
Yeah, not literally, but the voices add a huge boost to their personalities.

"And this choice of randomness is comparable to the Ridley situation.....how exactly?"
First, Rest is an attack that doesn't scream Jiggypuff at all.
And second, it doesn't even work properly.

OK, I'm going to stop here to say that I was talking about things that are wrong with characters and how they "ruin" their portrayal.
Most of these are things that are wrong, but are considered minor and ignored (in most cases), but people act like something as minor as Ridley not being all the time in the air or being very big instead of colossal is just terrible.

The PM Ridley mod is a good example of how Ridley should be. It looks fantastic, even better than some characters in Smash 4.
It shows that Ridley can be in the ground, can work with limited jumps and doesn't look out of place being slighty bigger than Bowser. And please don't say something like balance or some stuff, because there are characters in this game that just completely eliminate that point.

 

[Zem-raj]

Okay, that is actually adorable. I fully support Chibi Ridley as playable.
I didn't wanna make it seem like Ridley would never be added to Smash, only that his vicious design could be one of the major reasons as to why he's not been added yet instead of just his size, cause he looks like one of his grab attacks will take inspiration straight out of that scene in Aliens where the queen jabs her tail spike through the android and rips him apart.
Seeing Ridley that small and cute actually helps me visualise him in Smash more, cause he's less "killer alien" and more "angry purple chicken". That actually brings up a good question: how far are you willing to let them go with making Ridley less vicious and more goofy? Would it be the middle ground between Chibi Ridley up there and regular Ridley or one more than the other?

I think his Brawl design is a perfect design for use in Smash. It's in the middle between serious and comical. The wings and tail are at reasonable proportions, and the overall model can easily be scaled down and not look stupid small. The Other M clone's design has really large wings and long tail, but those can be adjusted to the sizes that they were in the concept art. Ridley's intimidating presence isn't because of size, because his size has been inconsistent in the Metroid series - it's about his personality and because of his actions that show his menacing nature as a character. Perhaps his design could even be like Smashified's design (as currently shown in my avatar), that one works really well.

I wouldn't mind seeing him in Mortal Kombat though, they can go all out with his blood-thirsty personality, and make him as violent and calculating as he truly is. But Nintendo...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do kind of wish that we had the option to manually choose the music track that you want to play whenever you choose a stage. Relying on My Music's roulette system can be a pain whenever you have to alter the frequency of certain music tracks a lot.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think Luigi's weirdness is very overblown in Smash but that has nothing to do with Ridley's gameplay-based troubles

 

[Deleted member]

I do kind of wish that we had the option to manually choose the music track that you want to play whenever you choose a stage. Relying on My Music's roulette system can be a pain whenever you have to alter the frequency of certain music tracks a lot.

What would be a neat feature is an option which allows you to create a playlist which would change the current music to another one after a certain amount of time.

For example, after 3 minutes fighting with Mechanical Rhythm on the background, the music changes to You Will Know Our Names, and after 3 new minutes to Engage the Enemy, and so on.

That would be nice especially for long battles, where hearing the same loop for 15 minutes can get pretty tiring.

 

[AlphaSSB]

I do kind of wish that we had the option to manually choose the music track that you want to play whenever you choose a stage. Relying on My Music's roulette system can be a pain whenever you have to alter the frequency of certain music tracks a lot.

I'd change the function of the Y-Button for the Stage Selection Screen. Hover over the stage you want, and use the Y Button. Instead of taking you to the 'My Music' settings page, it'll pull up the list of songs available to play. Use the Y button again to play the song, then select it with A to chose it, or B to back out of the menu entirely. If your stage is selected, then the song you selected will be the one that plays. If multiple people select the same stage, with different songs, than one of the music pieces picked by the players is randomly chosen.

The roulette bars can still be adjusted in the actual game's settings menu, though. That way, if you just pick a stage without music, the game still has the bars to go by.

 

[Luminario]

I've often thought that it would be nice to be able to switch music to different stages. For example, if there's a stage you find rather lacking in songs you like (for me it's Skyworld and Boxing Ring) you can take a few songs from other stages and add it on to that stage.

 

[Chandeelure]

So, for the next game, are we expecting popular characters (ballot choices) or just characters based on relevance?
I mean, it will probably be a mix of both, but if it's just a port I think they would choose adding more popular characters, using the results of the ballot.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I'm expecting the usual aka nothing we can really predict.
If the ballot didn't turn out to be echo-chamber festival then nothing will really.

 

[AlphaSSB]

So, for the next game, are we expecting popular characters (ballot choices) or just characters based on relevance?
I mean, it will probably be a mix of both, but if it's just a port I think they would choose adding more popular characters, using the results of the ballot.

If I had to guess, they'll probably look at the ballot, and out of the ones they deem viable, give more priority to the more relevant characters.

 

[Diddy Kong]

So, for the next game, are we expecting popular characters (ballot choices) or just characters based on relevance?
I mean, it will probably be a mix of both, but if it's just a port I think they would choose adding more popular characters, using the results of the ballot.

The ballot was a fraud.

Bayonetta shouldn't have happened

 

[Deleted member]

The ballot was a fraud.

Bayonetta shouldn't have happened

Look just because the Ballot winner wasn't the character you wanted it doesn't mean that it was a "fraud".

 

[Chandeelure]

The ballot was a fraud.

Bayonetta shouldn't have happened

Hey, she is my main.

Don't be like that, I'm sure K. Rool will come someday.

 

[GaroMaster]

With the massive success of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and their paid online service coming this fall, I wouldn't be surprised if a Switch port of Smash 4 is coming.
Not to mention, it's going to have to meet the standard of MK8D if it wants to be seen as a worthy purchase (and granted, some people don't think Deluxe is worth the double dip).
With the addition of Battle Mode, one of MK8's biggest flaws was fixed. So, I would like to ask a question.
Put aside your personal feelings on the roster for this. What is the biggest flaw(s) with Smash 4 in your eyes?
Personally, as much as I love multi-player, I want some better modes for single player such as Target Test and an Adventure Mode. It would be a dream come true if they have another big budget single player mode similar to SSE, but I'll settle with Adventure mode. Also, bring in Smash Run for the port and give custom moves to the DLC characters. Anything else is purely subjective (characters, stages, etc.)

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hey, she is my main.

Don't be like that, I'm sure K. Rool will come someday.

I've actually warmed up to he a great deal. But that still doesn't mean that I think she is the actual ballot winner.

Look just because the Ballot winner wasn't the character you wanted doesn't mean that it was a "fraud".

Of course it is