Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

not all the heroes have the same models, and some would look weird pasted onto a generic body

each hero is distinct enough design-wise to be unique from each other, even if toriyama suffers from sameface syndrome a lot of the time

I think Bladeviper meant more like costume references, not model changes altogether. Not like Alph or the Koopalings.

I don't disagree with the idea of costumes referencing the other 7 options. Not that I want Erdrick, but it makes sense.

Yeah, alternate costumes like Koopalings wouldn't work, agreed.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

It's really a shame that DQ (Dragon Quest) isn't produced by Blizzard.

 

[Bionichute]

there's difficulties when approaching basically any dragon quest character from a "realistic" point of view

i honestly think dragonlord would be the safest option as much as that isn't going to happen. he's iconic, an actual character, has potential, is... a dragon...

 

[Calane]

Considering I haven't actually played any DQ game besides Monsters 1, one of the Monsters 2, and the first two games... are you surprised that most don't know they have names? That's the point being made. I am wrong, but it's very hard to know that. They aren't as recognizable and people are still calling them generic heroes as if they don't have names. That's a big deal for the character factor. The overall point is Erdrick is the most recognizable one by far, and he still falls overall to Slime.

Also, it's kind of silly to say Slime can't represent the series just as well when he can do practically all the same stuff every class can do. That's a non-argument towards him. They both have equivalent moveset potential. And yes, Slime can summon monsters too. They were always on equal levels of representing how Dragon Quest plays. They have the same overall gameplay in the regular style(of which DQ Monsters always was. Though I haven't played Joker, so I don't know if the general battle system is the same). I know little of Rocket Slime other than it being a spin-off.

Though as I said before, Erdrick isn't comparable to a lot of other franchise representatives because they use the bigger character first. Slime is just plain bigger than Erdrick. Slime also wouldn't be something as low as a stage appearance. If he isn't playable and Erdrick is, he's clearly going to be an AT or nothing more than a Spirit(cause no way he wouldn't get a Trophy. Being the mascot and all). I imagine the other Heroes and a few notable ones(like Jessica and Bianca) might get trophies too. And by trophies, I mean spirits, heh. ...Yes, I'm still a little salty Trophies got removed. >.<

Only major thing I asked anyway is if characters besides Slime got a spin-off. On another note, I made a Slime moveset that does the series a lot of justice too. It shows off everything you expect, including the usual weaponized moves you'd expect from a Hero, summoning monsters, and the usual spells(like Fireball/Hurt, depending what you want to call it).

Anyway, can the Hero be other classes? I legitimately want to know this. I don't have as vast knowledge as you do, so I asked a lot of stuff so I could be enlightened.

Well, I'm not surprised you or anyone else don't know they have names, but it's just a little frustrating to me as a big fan of the series. It's nothing too serious or anything, and it's understandable.

I don't think Slime represents the series well because he mostly reps the monsters, not the characters and the stories that make me love the series. It's not that I don't like Slime or think he can't do it, it's just that I'd prefer an actual character did it instead. Like Erdrick, for example.

As for characters besides Slime getting spinoffs, yeah some did. I believe Torneko Taloon has three, Yangus did, Terry was the star of the first DQ Monsters game, and I'm hearing that Erik is going to be the main character of an upcoming DQM game. There's probably more than that, but those are the ones that I'm aware of.

As for heroes being able to be other classes, some can't, but some can. For example, Solo (DQ4's hero) cannot, but Auster (DQ7's hero) can. It was a major feature of DQ7, actually. In that game, Auster and his friends could change their vocation and become any class in the game if they wanted. Here's an example:


I think that's about all you asked. Sorry if I forgot to address something.

 

[Bladeviper]

Anyway, can the Hero be other classes? I legitimately want to know this. I don't have as vast knowledge as you do, so I asked a lot of stuff so I could be enlightened.

in dq7 and 9 yes, and not counting 10 since its an mmo i think those are the only main line games with a class system

 

[Gentlepanda]

It's really a shame that DQ (Dragon Quest) isn't produced by Blizzard.

Think of all the DQ mobile games we could be missing out on.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

The rights difficulties with Dragon Quest and Sora is why I'm sticking by the fact neither are coming.

If we're getting Square Enix it'll be Geno or even Lara Croft, but I don't think it's worth the hassle of 3 seperate entities with Dragon Quest and two separate ones with Sora. Not to mention I can't imagine Disney being a cheap person to bargain with either.

Sora won't come cheap even if they don't include the Disney elements.

And consider Dragon Quest's composer? I can't see him being easy to secure the rights to what was it 5 songs they said?

Square in general is just a ****ing mess to bargain with no matter who you go after it seems. But at least with some of their characters and franchises it's just speaking to them and not 'Okay Sakurai now go to this company, and then the composer, and then this..."

 

[Bionichute]

Think of all the DQ mobile games we could be missing out on.

we're already missing out on a bunch

...including another monsters game

 

[Tree Gelbman]

Think of all the DQ mobile games we could be missing out on.

But all the delicious ice cream jokes you could make as well.

 

[Bladeviper]

The rights difficulties with Dragon Quest and Sora is why I'm sticking by the fact neither are coming.

If we're getting Square Enix it'll be Geno or even Lara Croft, but I don't think it's worth the hassle of 3 seperate entities with Dragon Quest and two separate ones with Sora. Not to mention I can't imagine Disney being a cheap person to bargain with either.

Sora won't come cheap even if they don't include the Disney elements.

And consider Dragon Quest's composer? I can't see him being easy to secure the rights to what was it 5 songs they said?

Square in general is just a ****ing mess to bargain with no matter who you go after it seems. But at least with some of their characters and franchises it's just speaking to them and not 'Okay Sakurai now go to this company, and then the composer, and then this..."

nintendo has a working relationship with disney though, they have no reason to not let sora in smash, and since kh3 is right around the corner square could easily let sakurai use him to promote the game

 

[Bionichute]

The rights difficulties with Dragon Quest and Sora is why I'm sticking by the fact neither are coming.

If we're getting Square Enix it'll be Geno or even Lara Croft, but I don't think it's worth the hassle of 3 seperate entities with Dragon Quest and two separate ones with Sora. Not to mention I can't imagine Disney being a cheap person to bargain with either.

Sora won't come cheap even if they don't include the Disney elements.

And consider Dragon Quest's composer? I can't see him being easy to secure the rights to what was it 5 songs they said?

Square in general is just a ****ing mess to bargain with no matter who you go after it seems. But at least with some of their characters and franchises it's just speaking to them and not 'Okay Sakurai now go to this company, and then the composer, and then this..."

almost like it was a bad idea to get square involved in this!

but really, if we don't get dragon quest (geno is basically deconfirmed at this point rip) then every option is just completely stupid to make. i cannot think of a single square character i would rather see than a dragon quest character because almost all of them are bad

like nobody ****ing wants gex in smash bros

 

[beans]

The rights difficulties with Dragon Quest and Sora is why I'm sticking by the fact neither are coming.

If we're getting Square Enix it'll be Geno or even Lara Croft, but I don't think it's worth the hassle of 3 seperate entities with Dragon Quest and two separate ones with Sora. Not to mention I can't imagine Disney being a cheap person to bargain with either.

Sora won't come cheap even if they don't include the Disney elements.

And consider Dragon Quest's composer? I can't see him being easy to secure the rights to what was it 5 songs they said?

Square in general is just a ****ing mess to bargain with no matter who you go after it seems. But at least with some of their characters and franchises it's just speaking to them and not 'Okay Sakurai now go to this company, and then the composer, and then this..."

Atleast Geno and Sora have it easier with their music being composed mostly Yoko Shimomura, since SF2 music is already in game I dont think it would hard to get more music that she hold the rights for.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

nintendo has a working relationship with disney though, they have no reason to not let sora in smash, and since kh3 is right around the corner square could easily let sakurai use him to promote the game

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

And Nintendo's working relationship with Disney is a moot point because so little good has come from it for either company.

Sora is a HUGE pipe-dream. Not impossible certainly but he's not the 100 percent lock everyone is thinking because one twitter dude said it.

 

[Gentlepanda]

The rights difficulties with Dragon Quest and Sora is why I'm sticking by the fact neither are coming.

If we're getting Square Enix it'll be Geno or even Lara Croft, but I don't think it's worth the hassle of 3 seperate entities with Dragon Quest and two separate ones with Sora. Not to mention I can't imagine Disney being a cheap person to bargain with either.

Sora won't come cheap even if they don't include the Disney elements.

And consider Dragon Quest's composer? I can't see him being easy to secure the rights to what was it 5 songs they said?

Square in general is just a ****ing mess to bargain with no matter who you go after it seems. But at least with some of their characters and franchises it's just speaking to them and not 'Okay Sakurai now go to this company, and then the composer, and then this..."

The absolute mess of rights involved for any SE franchise are why I'm sticking to the idea of a Bravely rep, since it and Octopath (though the latter was more to gauge Switch JRPG interest) are the only SE franchises exclusive to Nintendo platforms. Even then, there could be some web of music copyrights behind the scenes and we'd never know.

 

[Tree Gelbman]

almost like it was a bad idea to get square involved in this!

but really, if we don't get dragon quest (geno is basically deconfirmed at this point rip) then every option is just completely stupid to make. i cannot think of a single square character i would rather see than a dragon quest character because almost all of them are bad

like nobody ****ing wants gex in smash bros

Yikes.

Geno ain't even dead though.

And if it's because he's a Spirit you're saying this?

Double Yikes.

Spirits = Trophies.

Direct said as much.

Sakurai isn't going to say ''Welp can't include this because they're a piece of paper/sticker you attached to a character."

 

[Bladeviper]

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

And Nintendo's working relationship with Disney is a moot point because so little good has come from it for either company.

Sora is a HUGE pipe-dream. Not impossible certainly but he's not the 100 percent lock everyone is thinking because one twitter dude said it.

like cloud? when he was announced for smash there was nothing other than the remake of 7 in the works which is not coming to the switch either, that wouldnt stop them from putting sora in smash at all

 

[beans]

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

And Nintendo's working relationship with Disney is a moot point because so little good has come from it for either company.

Sora is a HUGE pipe-dream. Not impossible certainly but he's not the 100 percent lock everyone is thinking because one twitter dude said it.

I dont think its about promotion really. You could make the same argument for Cloud but look what happened.

 

[Bionichute]

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

on that note its also equally stupid for them to put someone like lara croft in since she's heavily attributed to the playstation brand and only her Real Bad games came out on nintendo consoles

if it isn't dragon quest, sora, or geno then who the hell is it

 

[Tree Gelbman]

like cloud? when he was announced for smash there was nothing other than the remake of 7 in the works which is not coming to the switch either, that wouldnt stop them from putting sora in smash at all

That's the point I was trying to make. If Sora's in it ain't to promote ****. It's just because of his icon status.

But Nintendo and Disney aren't as peachy as people make them out to be either. Otherwise we'd be seeing far more crossovers between two of the biggest juggernauts in entertainment. It's easy money.

 

[Gentlepanda]

I dont think its about promotion really. You could make the same argument for Cloud but look what happened.

Cloud strikes me as a 'Sakurai' pick over corporate Nintendo - if they'd been solely responsible for 4's DLC lineup like they seem to be this time, I can't ever imagine him getting in. Time will tell as to what their priorities in selection are (self-advertising or fan-pleasing?) but I don't think we'll ever have a surprise like Cloud again.

 

[Bionichute]

square enix rep #2 was a mistake

 

[DarthEnderX]

if it isn't dragon quest, sora, or geno then who the hell is it

....Crono?

 

[The_Intruder]

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

And Nintendo's working relationship with Disney is a moot point because so little good has come from it for either company.

Sora is a HUGE pipe-dream. Not impossible certainly but he's not the 100 percent lock everyone is thinking because one twitter dude said it.

Business wise Geno is honestly nothing for nintendo, no new games is coming in a near future with this character instead of sora that square could bring KH collection on the switch or even KH 3 next year on it, the same for DQ XI that is coming on the switch next year and they could advertise it with bringing a hero from the franchise in the last smash bros game.
It's time for people to realize it's not because a character is popular on a forum that it will be automatically popular elsewhere and especially when business is on the table to promote upcoming games from modern franchises in a near future or already popular.
Before people come with "bubu but K-rool" yeah K-rool was chosen by sakurai with the ballot and that was the only one he mentioned in the interview period.

 

[Bionichute]

this is what i got in response to asking what the last character could possibly be if basically everyone is deconfirmed

what do yall make of it. he's bein pretty wishywashy again

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Honestly, business isn't the only reason Sakurai (and Nintendo in this context) would choose a character. It could be why SE says no to someone like Geno(who Sakurai already paid for to be used in some way in the base game) over someone with a foreseeable future.

It doesn't mean they're going to go for a 3rd party just to promote them for an upcoming game. That isn't necessary. In fact, I don't think we've had a promotional 3rd party at all. Though I could see Katalina being the only possible one, and I'm doubting her, as even Hitagi is saying it's looking good, but not confirmed.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Nah. Because Nintendo isn't going to promote Kingdom Hearts 3 coming soon to Sony and Microsoft!

I mean they promoted MGS4 a ps3 exclusive and Castlevania collection which was ps4 exclusive only

 

[Bionichute]

the season pass comes off as kinda scummy anyway since its obviously supposed to exist to mooch money off of people that would impulse buy it, like most season passes do

 

[Tree Gelbman]

I mean they promoted MGS4 a ps3 exclusive and Castlevania collection which was ps4 exclusive only

Orrrrrrr they simply put Snake and Simon/Richter in because they were gaming icons and not about advertising.

I really don't know why this point has to be made every single time with a third party character.

 

[Bionichute]

Orrrrrrr they simply put Snake and Simon/Richter in because they were gaming icons and not about advertising.

I really don't know why this point has to be made every single time with a third party character.

we know that snake wasn't put in for advertisement reasons anyway, so it makes the point moot beyond that

 

[Cutie Gwen]

the season pass comes off as kinda scummy anyway since its obviously supposed to exist to mooch money off of people that would impulse buy it, like most season passes do

I mean, yeah. Why do you think Sakurai said both "Ideally we should show you it's content" and "We hope only people confident in it's value buy it for now"?

 

[Deleted member]

Reminder that Sakurai added Megaman as a “personal priority” and not for advertisement.

 

[Bionichute]

I mean, yeah. Why do you think Sakurai said both "Ideally we should show you it's content" and "We hope only people confident in it's value buy it for now"?

i mean yeah

doesn't stop it from being scummy

 

[The_Intruder]

I mean they promoted MGS4 a ps3 exclusive and Castlevania collection which was ps4 exclusive only

When you saw this

Why changing the model of ryu based on street fighter 2 for a new model based on street fighter V not being on a nintendo plateform lol.

 

[Gentlepanda]

So then, in brief, the way I see each potential character's chances:

• DQ Rep: Probably the most likely. DQ is ridiculously popular in Japan, and business-wise, to cash in on that would make a lot of sense. Plus, we have Hitagi hearing 'murmurs' of a DQ fighter. For rights and localisation, however, it's a logistical nightmare: as far as I'm aware, the lead composer hates having his orchestral music used in overseas releases, SE's being doing Nintendo dirty by constantly and endlessly delaying the latest game's Switch release, and any character that isn't Slime has dubious popularity overseas. That doesn't mean I don't think it'll happen, however.
• Geno: Yeaaah... I don't know about our puppety-boy. If this were Sakurai making the choices, then sure - the Mii costume last game showed some real acknowledgement, and he's wanted him in. But I don't see Nintendo going out of their way to get the rights to a fairly obscure pick, and I don't see Square letting them have him when they could sell the rights to someone more relevant. Unfortunately, I'd probably also put Crono into a similar argument.
• Sora: Definitely an iconic pick, and I wouldn't be surprised, but I can't imagine him being anything less than a legal nightmare. Nintendo will have known that KH3 is a PS4 exclusive for years now: pushing him around the time of its release on their biggest competitor (given the Microsoft bromance going on right now) would be odd to say the least. A similar argument can be made for Cloud, but I figure that was Sakurai chasing fan demand, not Nintendo chasing self-advertising.
• Lara Croft: no
• Bravely Rep: (Hey, is my personal bias showing?) These past few years, Nintendo's been going big on their SE-produced exclusive JRPGs: Bravely Default, Bravely Second, Octopath being a big hit on Switch, and now Bravely Third off the back of it. Keeping the traction Octopath generated going to promote the Bravely games going forward with a Smash inclusion would benefit Nintendo and SE--and only them: no risk of accidentally advertising rival consoles.
• 2nd FF Rep: Possible, but Square's difficult handling of FF in Smash so far (Cloud's franchise is VII in particular, not FF in general) makes me doubt it.

Did I miss anyone? I probably missed someone.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

we know that snake wasn't put in for advertisement reasons anyway, so it makes the point moot beyond that

They put in a mgs4 song exclusively in brawl to promote it

Richter and Simon were litrally added in timing with people to learn about the characters and buy the collection.

 

[Zinith]

Oh wait. I totally forgot about a Square Enix rep that someone like me would totally like!!!

Spoiler

Unfortunately that's the only image of Pakkun I can find that isn't explicitly vore related.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

i mean yeah

doesn't stop it from being scummy

That's my point, Sakurai thinks stuff like this is pretty scummy too, hence why he said both of those. Most other game companies just go "BUY NOW!"

 

[Nekoo]

Oh. I guess I can come clean too.
I knew about Ubisoft "trophies" (which is how they presented it to me, not as spirit) ever since E3, and knew it was rabbits focused alongside Rayman coming to Brawhalla.

Knew that Richter was in alongside Chrom or that a Geno was straight up not in the game. And I knew that the Grinch Leak was fake because of said source *visually knowing* that only Incineroar and Ken were left.
I heard someone telling me about Piranha Plant but I didn't believed them at all.
However not saying how I knew those one.

So honestly, beside knowing Three echoes, spirit and that the Grinch leak was fake I didn't ****ing know anything.
I'm not counting Piranha Plant because I didn't believed it at all until I saw it.

 

[beans]

They put in a mgs4 song exclusively in brawl to promote it

Richter and Simon were litrally added in timing with people to learn about the characters and buy the collection.

I'm pretty sure Kojima asked Sakurai to put Snake in, and I dont think promotion is a valid point for Simon/Richter either.
I can see Konami offering them to revive interest in the franchise for the collection, but Nintendo wouldnt go get them just to promote a game that wont be on their console for the foreseeable future.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

I'm pretty sure Kojima asked Sakurai to put Snake in, and I dont think promotion is a valid point for Simon/Richter either.
I can see Konami offering them to revive interest in the franchise for the collection, but Nintendo wouldnt go get them just to promote a game that wont be on their console for the foreseeable future.

Its still promotion though

Smash is perfect place to promote a series. Companies want money so they used the perfect oppurtunity they have to do it. Its promotion no matter what.