Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[P1ZZ4CHU]

If this was a better timeline, Cassie Cage's intro animation with the earbuds would have Techno Syndrome playing instead of one of the arcade songs.

Make it the Utah Saints mix and we'll meet halfway.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, speaking of Shulk, I believe I saw something about his stabbing moves(UAir, DAir, BAir, FSmash and USmash) getting range buffs though I'm not sure if this is true.
Shulk was good during release when he really did have the largest reach but after Corrin outreaching his FSmash and Cloud's Buster Sword outreaching his overall movesets, he's been left in a weird spot. Simon and Richter certainly won't help that so I really hope they buffed his range to at least be as big as Cloud's.

Range buffs are unconfirmed and would only marginally help him. What he does have, however, is speed buffs. Up tilt, and the second hit of Air Slash are faster from the footage we have. First hit of Air Slash is still frame 10 though...

 

[IGuessItsOver]

Murlough you literally said this

In that very post you also say this

Sorry Murlough, but if you talk like your fellow debater is illiterate at any chance you get even if your own arguments are gay ***, you have not succeeded

Poor man, let him rest

 

[pupNapoleon]

That's not what "late additions" means, they were there since the very beginning, they were just liable to get cut if development necessitated it.

By definition, you, Sir, are quibbling.
But that is okay. I can create as useless a post, and intend to right here!

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

A Smash Bros Battle Royale would actually be a great idea if it’s something like 20-25 characters on a big Smash Run like map. The problem would be actually making it work in terms of connection and the chance that everyone choses Ice Climbers and nukes each others’ Switches.

Ok hear me out. F-Zero with a Battle Royale mode.

Remember the Death Race mode on F-Zero X? Have a online race with 30 Different players on a looping course. For each new lap whoever is in last place gets eliminated. Additionally destroying other racers gives back a health reward. C'mon Nintendo this would be a perfect way to jump on the Battle Royale hype without being too derivative and relaunch a dormant franchise at the same time.

 

[Sharkarat]

Steve isn’t a gaming icon. Minecraft is. Steve is just the default skin that everyone eventually changes if they have played for more than a week.

That's still more distinct than Villager who:

• Isn't even called villager in animal crossing.
• The player will likely have a different Hair/face from the start never looking like the one in smash. Like Smash villager is spesifically the one from the wii AC's boxart.

According to your logic, I could argue Samus's Varia Suit isn't Iconic because all player will get the Gravity Suit.
And Mario not being the most played character in smash doesn't make him not the most iconic.
Even if you want to bring out Creeper that's like arguing Pokemon trainer isn't iconic because Pikachu is the mascot.

Sorry for using so long actually writing this reply if you wanted to end this disussion.

Steve though? Nobody who's never played the game knows who Steve is. They can recognize and name Creeper, partly because even if they had to guess, they'd call it some kind of 'Creeper', but Steve? They just assume its the generic player character. I, for one, had no idea there was even a named character. I thought it was just a blank avatar.

Have you been to an gamestop, or even a toy store because Minecraft even get lego sets. And in general people don't know the names of fictional character of media they haven't consumed. most gamers probably know about the minecraft guy even if not by name
Using those "my parent names smash character" thing as an example. It pretty much goes they can name the mario crew, Pikachu, Sonic, names link zelda. The rest is often random stuff. And while gamers of course know more than that, Like it's not like I know the name of the Assassin's Creed Characters (slight exaggeration, I do know one is named Ezio).

 

[SvartWolf]

Ok hear me out. F-Zero with a Battle Royale mode.

Remember the Death Race mode on F-Zero X? Have a online race with 30 Different players on a looping course. For each new lap whoever is in last place gets eliminated. Additionally destroying other racers gives back a health reward. C'mon Nintendo this would be a perfect way to jump on the Battle Royale hype without being too derivative and relaunch a dormant franchise at the same time.

hahah I can imagine some racers waiting at the finish line to ambush the other racers and destroy them, **** Dastardly style...

Edit: ok..... if I try to circunvent the auto censor to actually write teh name of teh character i'm trying to say would it mean an infraction? even though there is 0 intention of actually circunvent autocensor, since his name was actually that?

 

[MagnesD3]

Smash has already added four avatar characters with Villager, Robin, Corrin and Inkling and all of them have a lot of customization options in their games.

That's not an issue if a given character brings new and interesting gameplay.

If Steve is in Smash, you can bet everything on Sakurai having worked his magic on the character to make him stand out from the roster and bring a unique and fun moveset to the game.

I personally hate avatar characters with a passion and it’s a part of why I disliked the smash 4 roster so much, they feel empty due to not being a set character.

For example I still can’t believe they chose villager over the iconic Tom Nook who actually has character :S

 

[pupNapoleon]

How can literally anyone be disappointed by the Pokemon representation in Smash? It has the most playable characters, with only one of them sharing their moveset with another and its own version of ATs that makes it have the most summonable characters out of all series.
I may complain about the lack of Gen 3 and 5 Pokemon(and a proper Gen 2 Mon) but I just can't see how it's disapoointing at all.

Im disappointed in the quality of the Pokemon representation, not the quantity.
It's awesome that we have lots of unique movesets and a ton of reachable Pokemon in the Pokeballs...
but the characters as a whole dont stand for anything about the series, and the sole item is the Pokeball.
I love Pokemon. They arent just random creatures for summon. I appreciate the whole world and what it did for me a child.
I wish we had gameplay that reflected the series.

The Pokémon Trainer, though.

They did remove some mechanics from him that were inspired by Pokémon games, but it's a good thing he did because they definitely did not translate well to Smash.

I love the Trainer... but I dont think he is handled in a way that actually reflects the trainer. It minimizes the Pokemon he *does* use, and does not actually have much to do with the trainer, other than switching. That said, as a mechanic, switching works well as a fighting trope, and it makes sense for it to be used for the Trainer. I just wish it were better utilized. See below.

What would be your ideal form of representation? The speculation around Pokemon newcomers for Ultimate has always confused me, but I'm much more familiar with Gen 1 and 2 to make any definitive statements.

Honestly- it is very tricky.
If I'm going to go with keeping everyone in that is already in (for Ultimate's sake)

• I would separate the Pokemon Trainer into four characters-
  • the three Pokemon, and a Trainer, who functions by choosing any three Pokemon and replacing their down B (and reintroducing stamina to balance out the choice option)
  • possibly even a move that 'catches' the opponent (or an alternative version of moveset where the Pokeball is just a weapon).
• I would have Eevee make it in with a gimmick based around evolution, themed to different stages and times. His moveset changes slightly, but he can only be evolved once in the match, and each evolved form functions with very slight differences based on element. Not all evolutions would be available to each set/ game.
• I would include Team Rocket with Meowth who has flash summons, representing both the summoning aspect of Pokemon, and the cheating nature of the Teams of Pokemon.
  • Possibly with alt versions for each team
• I would give Squirtle an echo in Piplup.
• Maybe Zoroark echo for Lucario, with a switchup of Aura for a Mewtwo ability.

With that I would at least feel the all-stars of Pokemon made it in (Team Rocket/Meowth, and Eevee), as well as important aspects of the gameplay, such as catching Pokemon, summoning them, and evolution. It also only adds two fully unique new characters, while keeping what we have.
Possibly more echoes than Piplup.

it has been a long time since Ive considered my perfect representation of Pokemon in Smash, because I have never been convinced Jigglypuff or Greninja were good choices (for the series of Pokemon. For Smash, sure, they are fun).

 

[P1ZZ4CHU]

hahah I can imagine some racers waiting at the finish line to ambush the other racers and destroy them, **** Dastardly style...

>Not purposely driving backwards and ramming into the guy in first

 

[Frostwraith]

I personally hate avatar characters with a passion, they feel empty due to not being a set character.

For example I still can’t believe they chose villager over the iconic Tom Nook who actually has character:S

But the Villager clearly had more options to work with for being the actual player character in the MC.

Sure, Tom Nook has more character but where would that show up outside of taunts, win poses and some other animations? What kinds of moves would he have that fit the character and reflect his characterization?

Most of the Villager's moveset is derived from Animal Crossing gameplay and the moves reference diverse aspects of Animal Crossing, hence why Sakurai chose the Villager over Tom Nook.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Nintendo really pushing Smash with this "nintendo versus" thing

It's a really good sign

Man,

I don't know any other fighting game that frequently had tourneys before it even released.

Tekken doesn't count since it released in arcades

gotta admit this series has gone a long way since shutting down tourneys and introducing rng mechanics to disrupt comp play.

The August Direct kinda showed that they meant it when they wanted this to be more competeive.

Let's hope Rage Toggle isn't a misunderstanding and we're good.

 

[osby]

I personally hate avatar characters with a passion and it’s a part of why I disliked the smash 4 roster so much, they feel empty due to not being a set character.

For example I still can’t believe they chose villager over the iconic Tom Nook who actually has character :S

:ultrobin and actually has set characters. More than or even, since they aren't silent.
and s don't have any less characters than .
has more voice lines than almost any other character and I'd say they show clear personality.

If Tom Nook would have priority over Villager, than Zelda should have been playable before Link.

 

[Imadethistoseealeak]

Follow up on the low tier mains discussion, from what we've seen of demo game play footage, which we know isn't final, what buffs are you hoping your characters get?

I can't be the only one who thinks Ridley gets KO'd too early? Especially for a heavier character, hope they make him a little more sturdy. I'd also like him to get more than 3 jumps (that's how many he has right?) but that's probably too drasctic of a change to hope for.

 

[Deleted member]

Let's hope Rage Toggle isn't a misunderstanding and we're good.

I can’t wait for rage on/rage off debates!

 

[Darkraid]

Phoenix wright trilogy announced for switch. Really hope he makes it as dlc. Cant wait to play the games again next year

 

[Frostwraith]

(and reintroducing stamina)

There are very good reasons why they got rid of this mechanic, so it would be asinine to reintroduce it again.

Awful idea to bring bad gameplay design for the sake of "representation".

The rest that you said, while interesting ideas, feel also convoluted for an accessible game like Smash is meant to be. It would make playing a Pokémon character a total cluster**** as opposed to how any character is pick up and play.

Not everything has to be this super representative of a given series and its gameplay. It needs to work in Smash and in accordance to Smash's design philosophies. Having just Pikachu, Mewtwo or Lucario, who all are iconic and very recognizable characters, makes for a more straightforward design.

Only the Pokémon Trainer is more gimmicky, but as in Ultimate, he's no less gimmicky than other transformation characters were before they got separated in Smash 3DS/Wii U.

If you were to do this same premise with Fire Emblem or, hell, any other franchise for the sake of "accurate representation", Smash Bros. wouldn't mesh at all and it would fail in its premise.

 

[Iridium]

So, I just watched the SSBU portion of EGX, and it seems like other attacks can be used on the victim of Ridley's side-B by another character aside from the two (not too game-changing). I saw it happen once, and I'll show it off when the stream finishes.

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

I can’t wait for rage on/rage off debates!

not gonna lie, I have never seen anyone in my life defend rage during the entirety of smash 4's life. Ever. But yeah we're 100% gonna get people come out of the woodwork and tell us how exciting and lowkey balanced it makes games when the choice comes.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

In regards to the Steve debate, I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up as DLC.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

I feel like people are starting to sleep on Bomberman...

To be fair, Bomb didn't pop into my head when I typed it. I'm sure there's plenty of characters who would easily have a high tier status on the poll

 

[MSmariosonic]

I never understood the issue with rage to be honest

Almost every mainstream fighting game out there has a comeback mechanic

As long as it's not broken like X factor I don't mind rage at all

 

[Pyra]

I never understood the issue with rage to be honest

Almost every mainstream fighting game out there has a comeback mechanic

As long as it's not broken like X factor I don't mind rage at all

I'm in the same boat, but also I think the game should definitely have a toggle for it. More options can only be better imo

 

[TheCJBrine]

I think a point to make is that, if they do go through with Steve:

As a company, they try to market to the largest crowd possible, not just the hardcore gamers / Smash community. Minecraft Steve would boost their chances in succeeding, as Minecraft can be marketed to nearly everyone. If kids see Minecraft in Smash, they may want to buy a Steve amiibo with the game and play as him all day and use him to beat up the villains (well, hopefully they and their parents could hear about the amiibo stuff).

Of course, any Minecraft content in general would do exactly that...well, as long as it get's a stage at the least. Though, if a Creeper assist trophy is shown off, I'm not sure how the kids would react to that alone...they just might want to see a lot more Minecraft stuff, though. Marketing may end up not succeeding if there isn't decent Minecraft content, unless the kids love Smash regardless.

 

[osby]

Follow up on the low tier mains discussion, from what we've seen of demo game play footage, which we know isn't final, what buffs are you hoping your characters get?

I can't be the only one who thinks Ridley gets KO'd too early? Especially for a heavier character, hope they make him a little more sturdy. I'd also like him to get more than 3 jumps (that's how many he has right?) but that's probably too drasctic of a change to hope for.

Bayonetta. People are going to complain about her even if she's bottom tier. Might as well be broken again.

 

[pupNapoleon]

There are very good reasons why they got rid of this mechanic, so it would be asinine to reintroduce it again.

Awful idea to bring bad gameplay design for the sake of "representation".

It's not like you to take someone's words out of context.
They got rid of stamina because of being locked in to Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.
If you can choose which three Pokemon you want to switch between, then reintroducing stamina for trainer is a great way to balance the multitude of options.
Read my post dude, not a phrase.

The rest that you said, while interesting ideas, feel also convoluted for an accessible game like Smash is meant to be. It would make playing a Pokémon character a total cluster**** as opposed to how any character is pick up and play.

Not everything has to be this super representative of a given series and its gameplay. It needs to work in Smash and in accordance to Smash's design philosophies. Having just Pikachu, Mewtwo or Lucario, who all are iconic and very recognizable characters, makes for a more straightforward design.

Only the Pokémon Trainer is more gimmicky, but as in Ultimate, he's no less gimmicky than other transformation characters were before they got separated in Smash 3DS/Wii U.

If you were to do this same premise with Fire Emblem or, hell, any other franchise for the sake of "accurate representation", Smash Bros. wouldn't mesh at all and it would fail in its premise.

I could possibly agree with you if such detail were not put into third parties.
But they get a lot of detail, and Nintendo franchises have somewhat less, unless they were introduced in Smash 4.
I dont see anything for which I suggested that is more extreme than what we have in given characters already.

If you suggested Kirby could copy others' abilities, I guarantee you'd say it is broken, as it is in the same language you described above.
I'm sure on the same lines of 'convolution' would be a three in one character like duck hunt, or even a duo character in Ice Climbers.


TLDR: I am aware you are happy with the game as it is, but I don't accept your limitations in imagination as an excuse to call my ideas 'asinine.'

 

[blackghost]

steve also fits the theory that myself and a few others were talking about the character reveal trailers go in order of appearance on a Nintendo system. steve also fits this pattern as has every other newcomer's trailer.

i think steve will be the first character to play similar to game and watch. only character i can compare him to.

 

[SvartWolf]

Of the current assists I can see Waluigi, Ashley and Bomberman really being able to rise the banners of their respective characters.... and Zero and Shovel knight do some noise. Alucard is another character that may be able to gather strong support if people think he is actually pausible.

Even if i will keep supporting Lyn, sadly I don't see her shattering the earth anytime soon...

 

[MagnesD3]

But the Villager clearly had more options to work with for being the actual player character in the MC.

Sure, Tom Nook has more character but where would that show up outside of taunts, win poses and some other animations? What kinds of moves would he have that fit the character and reflect his characterization?

Most of the Villager's moveset is derived from Animal Crossing gameplay and the moves reference diverse aspects of Animal Crossing, hence why Sakurai chose the Villager over Tom Nook.

Tom Nook could have used items from his store or just had villigers moveset but I would prefer that bells, housework and greed would be involved in there somehow. Either way Tom Nook was the most iconic character in the series and that alone would be the main reason he should have gotten in first, unfortunately now Isabelle the apparent “new hotness” has somehow over shadowed tha nook so he will probably never be a character which is crazy since that’s literally the first character I think of when I think of AC.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

hahah I can imagine some racers waiting at the finish line to ambush the other racers and destroy them, **** Dastardly style...

Edit: ok..... if I try to circunvent the auto censor to actually write teh name of teh character i'm trying to say would it mean an infraction? even though there is 0 intention of actually circunvent autocensor, since his name was actually that?

>Not purposely driving backwards and ramming into the guy in first

Yeah the aspect of people ambushing or driving backwards has crossed my mind, but I feel it would be fun to have some risk/reward. Sure you can wait to ambush players, but at the same time your giving up your lead to do so and still can be killed as well.

 

[MSmariosonic]

Of the current assists I can see Waluigi, Ashley and Bomberman really being able to rise the banners of their respective characters.... and Zero and Shovel knight do some noise. Alucard is another character that may be able to gather strong support if people think he is actually pausible.

Even if i will keep supporting Lyn, sadly I don't see her shattering the earth anytime soon...

Which got me thinking

What's everyone's top 5 current most wanted assist trophies for future dlc?

Mine:

1. Knuckles
2. Alucard
3. Zero
4. Bomberman
5. Ghirahim

 

[ChocolatGelgato]

Of the current assists I can see Waluigi, Ashley and Bomberman really being able to rise the banners of their respective characters.... and Zero and Shovel knight do some noise. Alucard is another character that may be able to gather strong support if people think he is actually pausible.

Even if i will keep supporting Lyn, sadly I don't see her shattering the earth anytime soon...

I seriously believe Nintendo will get sakurai to do the PR stunt of the year and make waluigi the first guy to get the upgrade from AT in game. They would probably just add a minor AT like charging chuck in his place in the update. I think people underestimate how far and wide the waluigi is not in smash stuff spread and how it kinda overshadowed everything else at e3. Imagine how you'd feel if you pulled out your years best game with every vet and ridley and people point at the funny purple man and say he should have been in.

 

[pupNapoleon]

steve also fits the theory that myself and a few others were talking about the character reveal trailers go in order of appearance on a Nintendo system. steve also fits this pattern as has every other newcomer's trailer.

Ah, yes... the good old days when we got our very first Splatoon game, in 1985.

 

[DLEAF]

My issue with the rage toggle is, assuming it’s implemented in competitive play, Ultimate’s version of For Glory definitely will keep rage on. I don’t like the idea of basic mechanics differing from in-game competition to irl competition.

 

[CosmicQuark]

Im disappointed in the quality of the Pokemon representation, not the quantity.
It's awesome that we have lots of unique movesets and a ton of reachable Pokemon in the Pokeballs...
but the characters as a whole dont stand for anything about the series, and the sole item is the Pokeball.
I love Pokemon. They arent just random creatures for summon. I appreciate the whole world and what it did for me a child.
I wish we had gameplay that reflected the series.


Honestly- it is very tricky.
If I'm going to go with keeping everyone in that is already in (for Ultimate's sake)

I would separate the Pokemon Trainer into four characters-
the three Pokemon, and a Trainer, who functions by choosing any three Pokemon and replacing their down B (and reintroducing stamina), possibly even a move that 'catches' the opponent (or an alternative version of moveset where the Pokeball is just a weapon).
I would have Eevee make it in with a gimmick based around evolution, themed to different stages and times. (Ask if clarification is needed).
I would include Team Rocket with Meowth who has flash summons, representing both the summoning aspect of Pokemon, and the cheating nature of the Teams of Pokemon. (Possibly with alt versions for each team).
I would give Squirtle an echo in Piplup.

With that I would at least feel the all-stars of Pokemon made it in (Team Rocket/Meowth, and Eevee), as well as important aspects of the gameplay, such as catching Pokemon, summoning them, and evolution. It also only adds two fully unique new characters, while keeping what we have.
Possibly more echoes than Piplup. Maybe Zoroark for Lucario, with a switchup of Aura for a Mewtwo ability.

it has been a long time since Ive considered my perfect representation of Pokemon in Smash, because I have never been convinced Jigglypuff or Greninja were good choices (for the series of Pokemon. For Smash, sure, they are fun).

Yeah, I think the focus on quantity rather than quality is problematic. I'd love Eevee demonstrating various eeveelutions, as well as Team Rocket with Meowth. And while I agree quality is more important, the comment of Zoroark being an echo for Lucario is interesting, as I had a debate with my friend where I thought a good way to introduce Pokemon to all generations were to have echoes of Lucario and Greninja for Gen 3 and 5, and then a unique fighter for Gen 7. My list was : Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, Blaziken (echo), Lucario, Zoroark (echo), Greninja, Decidueye--which has a lot of fan favorites, as well as elemental variety. Though, he said there aren't that many Pokemon that would make good echoes for Lucario and Greninja, and I do not like the idea of cross-series echoes, but with how we've seen echoes/semi-clones being handle, I'm not sure what to think of it. I think it's feasible, though I don't think it will happen.

Ultimately, given what we know and think we know of the final roster, unless B&K get in, Pokemon Trainer will likely be my main in the end.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I never understood the issue with rage to be honest

Almost every mainstream fighting game out there has a comeback mechanic

As long as it's not broken like X factor I don't mind rage at all

It's because Smash fans hate adapting primarily

GAME TIME! Pick your most wanted character and think of something they could jokingly reference in their trailers. Stuff like the Yoshi's throwing Mr. Saturns to each other. For example, Dante. Dante gets pinned by Corrin's side B, fights Bayonetta and Ganondorf and gets chased by Belmonts when in Devil Trigger form

 

[osby]

I seriously believe Nintendo will get sakurai to do the PR stunt of the year and make waluigi the first guy to get the upgrade from AT in game. They would probably just add a minor AT like charging chuck in his place in the update. I think people underestimate how far and wide the waluigi is not in smash stuff spread and how it kinda overshadowed everything else at e3. Imagine how you'd feel if you pulled out your years best game with every vet and ridley and people point at the funny purple man and say he should have been in.

I would ignore them because obviously they have no value as decent human beings and don't deserve to be treaten as such.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think people take the idea of representing a series and sometimes take it a bit too far. By that I mean, there are more ways than a playable character to represent a series.

For example, with Pokémon. The Pokémon Trainer is, in my opinion, the closest we’ll get to representing what Pokémon games are. Making him into a character that summons Pokémon randomly rather than to battle kinda...goes against what Pokémon Trainers would do when in battle.

This could easily be represented more by trainers in the background of a stage based on a town or city. Like imagine a stage based on a particular region that took you to an ocean, cave, and other locales that showed Trainers in the background doing a variety of things in different locations.

The moveset of a character should be functionality first, full stop. The stamina mechanic made the Trainer not so good, so it’s worthy of getting cut, and already according to people have played makes the Trainer feel way better than he once did.

 

[Deleted member]

We have people that....legitimately advocate for the stupid Stamina gimmick with Pokémon Trainer....?

....I am at a loss for words.....

 

[pupNapoleon]

Yeah, I think the focus on quantity rather than quality is problematic. I'd love Eevee demonstrating various eeveelutions, as well as Team Rocket with Meowth. And while I agree quality is more important, the comment of Zoroark being an echo for Lucario is interesting, as I had a debate with my friend where I thought a good way to introduce Pokemon to all generations were to have echoes of Lucario and Greninja for Gen 3 and 5, and then a unique fighter for Gen 7. My list was : Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Pichu, Blaziken (echo), Lucario, Zoroark (echo), Greninja, Decidueye--which has a lot of fan favorites, as well as elemental variety. Though, he said there aren't that many Pokemon that would make good echoes for Lucario and Greninja, and I do not like the idea of cross-series echoes, but with how we've seen echoes/semi-clones being handle, I'm not sure what to think of it. I think it's feasible, though I don't think it will happen.

Ultimately, given what we know and think we know of the final roster, unless B&K get in, Pokemon Trainer will likely be my main in the end.

If Blaziken can echo Capt.Falcon, I'd add him to my list.
But I want the point of my list to actually be seen- it only has so many because I was not cutting characters already in the game.
That said, if someone as level headed as Frost could not read my post without immediately jumping to the defense of the given point, and then chastising the idea that my thoughts were, more or less, too complicated, then I guess all hope is lost on the general fanbase.