Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[Deleted member]

It should be noted, however, that the Bull Charge is an instant knockdown for Little Mac. The KO Uppercut is not a guaranteed 1-hit KO by any means.

You missed the point entirely.

Why should I when it's accurate. Stop ignoring the facts here. Wolf had one chance to come back after being cut from the initial roster. Sakurai did not care that he was "easy to come back". All DLC characters had actual reasons for returning the vets. Mewtwo because he was most popular to begin with. Lucas for Brawl vet. Roy for Melee vet. Wolf had nothing beyond a game he's in to come out. It was that or... nothing. And he had nothing. Slippy was not coming to Smash at that point(maybe a later game, but he had nothing over Wolf when they were in the same position, just one is more popular and a vet, in 4).

The only ignoring the facts is you, Irene.
Even if Star Fox Zero was to be released a month before Fire Emblem Fates' US release, we would not have had Wolf instead of Corrin. Why? Multiple reasons:
a. Corrin legitimately promotes Fates due to being the game's protagonist while Wolf does a VERY ****ty job at promoting Zero. Use common sense here. How does someone who only serves as a side enemy that has little overall presence and is in absolutely no promotional material for the game itself do anything to promote it? Just because "he's in it"? Give me a break.
b. Corrin is a fresh new face with new tricks no one has seen yet; Wolf is an old face that uses the same old tricks that we've seen before. And some of those tricks are derived from another character, albeit with more of a distinct flair.

So really, the only thing you're right about is that he had "nothing" for him ever since Lucas was the "Brawl" choice. And very few of us understood that (myself included) until after the fact.

Sorry, but your argument doesn't work at all when you actually understand Wolf's issues with being in Smash 4. Slippy would've been viewed solely as a replacement and would have gone horribly. It was either both, Wolf, or none, realistically. None won out due to Star Fox Zero being delayed(Star Fox Guard the same thing). I would've gladly taken both, but there was no way either could get into 4(returning and new depending which one) outside of promotion anymore. We need to stop pretending that promotional purposes aren't heavily used for characters sometimes. It's not wrong or incorrect to do. It's just a reality thing.

You need to stop pretending you know what you're talking about.
First of all, the reason I brought up Slippy is because of your promotion ramblings. Because HE IS SOMEONE WHO CAN ACTUALLY PROMOTE THE GAME. If "promotion" were the main factor, it would be him, not Wolf. It means jack who's more popular between the two if you argue in the case of promotion and only one of the two can actually be used to "promote" anything.
Neither were going to be considered in regards to "promotion" either way, but still. How people would have seen Slippy doesn't hold any sort of relevance considering how Corrin was perceived could have been predicted (and even WAS predicted), but he was still added anyway for the sake of promotion.

You want to preach promotion, but so far you have shown me that you clearly haven't the slightest clue how promotion even works. So you are in no position to be telling us how we think and we need to think.

Wolf was "can we promote him? No? Meh, not worth the time." That's the reality of the situation now. Something that's better to accept as the only feasible explanation at this time. If anything, Sakurai really should just go out and admit it or prove the most feasible theory wrong. Clearly it's at a stalemate.(and yes, simply put, I do not believe any other situation would've made sense, so that's my hard explanation I'm sticking to, and no other one is very convincing at all as a good reason to bring him back).

No, it's not the "reality" of the situation.
The "reality" of the situation is that we literally don't know the exact reasoning as to why Wolf wasn't DLC.
And until we do, literally every theory (in your OWN WORDS), no matter how "feasible", is just that. Theory.

But the moment you try to claim a theory that, let's be honest, you've fabricated all on your own to rationalize what happened, as the "absolute truth" that everyone has to follow is the moment you've made yourself the least credible voice of reason.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Eh, Slippy's Game is more SFG than Zero. One actually stars him. Wolf's only promotional point wold be "showing off the new design" and that's it. I think that I didn't explain the Wolf point well enough. I apologize about that. Also, since Zero was coming out during the DLC timing window originally, it being represented by Fox and Falco would make no sense. And yes, I tried to reword a post because it sounded far more like a "this is what you think". I was trying to avoid that. I just don't agree with the other explanations because they don't feel logical to me due to all the factors(namely, Slippy being in over Wolf would go really badly for the fanbase. We saw tons of backlash with characters who replace others. Obviously it would not a replacement so much as "this character worked better and the other one was cut for unrelated reasons", but we know the fanbase is not like that. The whole Ike and Lucario VS Roy and Mewtwo thing proves that. Thus, that kind of stuff has to be done carefully. Also, Wolf was cut due to having no games coming out. Him coming back because a game he's in is coming out makes a lot of sense. Him being popular and a vet makes sure this reasoning works in the long run. Also, see my explanation up above for what I actually meant by promotional purposes. I very badly explained that point earlier. There's no denying that. Honestly, sorry about that. >.<).

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. It's very obvious neither of us will agree and that's fine. Sorry if I came off rude at any point.

-------------------------

I'm wondering how long it'll be before a Smash announcement, assuming it's a port. I agree it would make sense to wait a bit, due to wanting to sell ARMS and Pokken. You want the hype and sales for these. Makes sense.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

It should be noted, however, that the Bull Charge is an instant knockdown for Little Mac. The KO Uppercut is not a guaranteed 1-hit KO by any means.

It's almost like they tried to balance it because a OHKO in a fighting game with a big competitive scene would be ludicrous

The way I see it, Wolf could have promoted SFZ by using his design from that game. However, it isn't much and wouldn't really justify it with such minor changes

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

They should have used Funky Kong to promote Tropical Freeze.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I think that with the release of Star Fox 2, Wolf returning in a Smash4 port is way more secure than just hanging with the marketing coming from Star Fox Zero.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think that with the release of Star Fox 2, Wolf returning in a Smash4 port is way more secure than just hanging with the marketing coming from Star Fox Zero.

Well, Zero is already out and didn't go well. So it wouldn't matter now.

Agreed, though. But that's if they go that route. Him coming back in a port because he's popular is good enough, same with IC's. Anyone else is more up in the air, assuming the Smash 4 roster is all there.

 

[Diddy Kong]

ARMS character / robot mech fighter guy seem unique enough but I currently doubt it would be a newcomer right away. Maybe DLC later on, or at least a character not first on the priority of the developers. Inklings seems a more 'safe bet'. However, I think lots of Mii costume DLC characters seem likely in a way. Geno and Heiachi jump out for me in the third party department for example. K.Rool and Inkling from the third party characters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The thing about ARMS is that who would represent the franchise best?

I mean, Nintendo pretty much established Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as the mascots pre-release, but it seems Twintelle took over that spot for... reasons.

And with DLC characters about to shot up, maybe another, more interesting character will show up and become the face (or rather, limbs ) of ARMS?

Though I do agree that the Inklings are a safe bet. If not, we'll definitely get some Splatoon representation with trophies, music and maybe even a stage.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

The thing about ARMS is that who would represent the franchise best?

I mean, Nintendo pretty much established Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as the mascots pre-release, but it seems Twintelle took over that spot for... reasons.

And with DLC characters about to shot up, maybe another, more interesting character will show up and become the face (or rather, limbs ) of ARMS?

Though I do agree that the Inklings are a safe bet. If not, we'll definitely get some Splatoon representation with trophies, music and maybe even a stage.

I don't think Twintelle has ever taken over that spot. Spring Man ha always been the first known character of ARMS, and Spring Man has always been the flagship character in supplemental material.

No matter who else comes along, Spring Man would be the character used in Smash, even if he's far from the most popular character.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't think Twintelle has ever taken over that spot. Spring Man ha always been the first known character of ARMS, and Spring Man has always been the flagship character in supplemental material.

No matter who else comes along, Spring Man would be the character used in Smash, even if he's far from the most popular character.

Actually Ribbon Girl was technically the first.

Remember that Spring Man was never alone. It was always the two of them.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I think Spring Man and Ribbon Girl could definitely debut in Smash at the same time.
Have Spring Man use a moveset solely based on ARMS-wide mechanics instead of his own schticks 'cept for his own ARMS and Ribbon Girl can be a clone with SM's moveset with multijumps and different elements to her punches.

 

[Deleted member]

We're not getting 2 ARMS characters at once, let alone one getting in as a pre-planned clone of the other.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think Spring Man and Ribbon Girl could definitely debut in Smash at the same time.
Have Spring Man use a moveset solely based on ARMS-wide mechanics instead of his own schticks 'cept for his own ARMS and Ribbon Girl can be a clone with SM's moveset with multijumps and different elements to her punches.

The only way I can see that happening is if they where to pull another Dark Pit/Lucina/Dr. Mario and Ribbon Girl (or Spring Man, whichever one took priority) was already pre planned as an alternate costume but got promoted to a clone at the last minute because the dev's had extra time....

I'm not sure if they would plan a low priority clone for ARMS though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only way I can see that happening is if they where to pull another Dark Pit/Lucina/Dr. Mario and Ribbon Girl (or Spring Man, whichever one took priority) was already pre planned as an alternate costume but got promoted to a clone at the last minute because the dev's had extra time....

I'm not sure if they would plan a low priority clone for ARMS though.

Considering how each character has unique abilities, I doubt any of them would be demoted to alternate costume, making a Lucina/Pittoo situation the only way we can get more than one ARMS character.

 

[Delzethin]

So how did E3 affect the outlook of Smash and its potential newcomers? With permission from @Zebei, here're my thoughts:

And for the record, Ribbon Girl's special abilities are too different from Spring Man's to be thrown in as an alt or last minute bonus clone. She'd probably have the best chance as a semi-clone in Smash 6 or something.

 

[APC99]

I definitely think that, if the next Smash is indeed a Smash 5 that's being developed in the next 2-3 years, we'll see an ARMS fighter (probably Spring Man) and a Rex / Pyra tag team fighter (Rex is on-stage at all times, with Pyra switching between being the sword Rex uses, and her well-endowed Driver form as a MvC-style assist move).

If the next Smash is indeed Smash 4 Deluxe, I'm putting money down on Inklings and maybe 3-4 other characters (one or two other newcomer(s), the other two being veterans, ideally Icies and Wolf to represent Melee and Brawl, respectively).

 

[Diddy Kong]

I never really looked into ARMS characters, but I want Twintella now.

 

[Bowserlick]

ARMS can go the Fire Emblem route and include both Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as the Smash ARMS debut flagship characters. One being a clone or semi-clone of the other.

The multi-jumping component of Ribbon Girl is her in-game mechanic that translates easy to Smash. She might start as a skin alternative to Spring Man, but then get stat adjustments to include more than two jumps and other differences.

 

[Deleted member]

ARMS can go the Fire Emblem route and include both Spring Man and Ribbon Girl as the Smash ARMS debut flagship characters. One being a clone or semi-clone of the other.

This makes no sense.
The "Fire Emblem" route was circumstantial. Only one was planned to be in the game while the clone was added towards the end of development to help expand the roster along with the other clones.

We're at a point where newcomer clones aren't even being pre-planned as extra "if there's time" characters now, if Smash 4 is anything to go by. The only new clones (Dark Pit and Lucina) were different cases altogether, being planned as costumes, then being made into separate fighters later.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If they want to include both, it's really hard to say what route they could go. It is possible for them to plan them out as semi-clones of each other. Unlikely, if precedent for how clones show up are anything to go by.

 

[Deleted member]

So...

How about this song to be included in Smash?

 

[_Sheik]

How about the vocalized main theme of every new installment in each of Smash's mainline franchises to be included in Smash?

 

[Bowserlick]

This makes no sense.
The "Fire Emblem" route was circumstantial. Only one was planned to be in the game while the clone was added towards the end of development to help expand the roster along with the other clones.

We're at a point where newcomer clones aren't even being pre-planned as extra "if there's time" characters now, if Smash 4 is anything to go by. The only new clones (Dark Pit and Lucina) were different cases altogether, being planned as costumes, then being made into separate fighters later.

Makes perfect sense. Both can be used to represent their game with one being the clone of the other.

And you left out quite conveniently my second paragraph where I described how one could start out as a skin and then become a separate fighter later.

 

[UserKev]

Smash is really evolving out of favor for me. I wonder what I'll do.

I never really looked into ARMS characters, but I want Twintella now.

Alright. Just go back from watching showcasing of Arms characters. I never looked into them until now my self.

Twintella is most likely African to. Haha She's definitely behind Spring Man and Ribbon Girl in Smash consideration though. Either way, I can see either one of them in Smash 5 now. Their stretching abilities can be easily nerfed the same as Mewtwo's psychic reach.

Their in.

 

[Geno Boost]

lol i found my 2014 smash 4 roster prediction it looks dirty as hell

 

[Bowserlick]

ARMS can come with three bodies and three arm sets. Spring Man, Ribbon Girl and Master Mummy as the bodies and their arms (separate).

The bodies have stats and passive abilities and the arms change up the specials. You select the body first and then the selection of three arms comes up in a sub-window for your choosing.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

ARMS can come with three bodies and three arm sets. Spring Man, Ribbon Girl and Master Mummy as the bodies and their arms (separate).

The bodies have stats and passive abilities and the arms change up the specials. You select the body first and then the selection of three arms comes up in a sub-window for your choosing.

Why are you picturing them as this homogenized fighter set the way we literally already have Miis for?

That defeats the whole point of their characters if they're not recognized as individual characters over just bodies.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

Do you think it's possible that Sakurai (assuming he's working on....or at least overseeing the Switch version) doesn't like the idea of just creating a deluxe version with dlc included and a few extra characters and stages? (I think I read a translated interview once that he didn't like the idea of dlc or more accurately he wanted to make sure people were getting value before he provided dlc)

For some reason I'm starting to feel like it's more like Sakurai to want to go bigger and push the franchise even further. (and so we'll be waiting longer than expected for an actual reveal) The longer we wait for a Smash Switch reveal the more I feel like this could be the case.

 

[Bowserlick]

Why are you picturing them as this homogenized fighter set the way we literally already have Miis for?

That defeats the whole point of their characters if they're not recognized as individual characters over just bodies.

Why am I picturing them how they are in their own game? LOL

So you would have three characters with their own traits and stats. For example, Ribbon Girl can jump more than twice, Spring Man can reflect projectiles with certain 'A' moves and Master Mummy can have Tough Man armor like Bowser.

Each Arm: Toaster Arm (Spring Man), Sparky Arm (Ribbon Girl), Megaton Arm (Master Mummy) comes with four specials. You can put any arm type on any body on the select screen. So, you can have the default character or switch it up.

ALTERNATIVELY, another idea is that there is one character who can change ARMs with down B which switches out the other three specials for a new set.

 

[APC99]

Why am I picturing them how they are in their own game? LOL

So you would have three characters with their own traits and stats. For example, Ribbon Girl can jump more than twice, Spring Man can reflect projectiles with certain 'A' moves and Master Mummy can have Tough Man armor like Bowser.

Each Arm: Toaster Arm (Spring Man), Sparky Arm (Ribbon Girl), Megaton Arm (Master Mummy) comes with four specials. You can put any arm type on any body on the select screen. So, you can have the default character or switch it up.

ALTERNATIVELY, another idea is that there is one character who can change ARMs with down B which switches out the other three specials for a new set.

I just don't see how you could make a moveset out of each type of arms. Different effects, sure (electric attacks having more hitstun, fire having higher knockback or multi-hit, etc.) but completely different Specials?

With completely different stats and traits, they might as well be different fighters. But three fighters with the same base moveset isn't excusable as a main "gimmick".

They're already unique in the fact that they're long-range fighters / zoners who don't rely on projectiles. Why tack on a bunch of unnecessary customization and stances on an already solid character?

Simplicity is key. A character's "gimmick" is usually very limited. For example, Shulk can change his stats. Robin's weapons have durability. Olimar can pluck and use Pikmin. Straightforward and simple. Then there are characters who are more complex, but are instantly recognizable by their fans, i.e. Ryu's special inputs and Bayonetta's combo game. Very rarely is there a character that uses various gimmicks at once.

 

[Bowserlick]

I just don't see how you could make a moveset out of each type of arms. Different effects, sure (electric attacks having more hitstun, fire having higher knockback or multi-hit, etc.) but completely different Specials?

With completely different stats and traits, they might as well be different fighters. But three fighters with the same base moveset isn't excusable as a main "gimmick".

They're already unique in the fact that they're long-range fighters / zoners who don't rely on projectiles. Why tack on a bunch of unnecessary customization and stances on an already solid character?

Simplicity is key. A character's "gimmick" is usually very limited. For example, Shulk can change his stats. Robin's weapons have durability. Olimar can pluck and use Pikmin. Straightforward and simple. Then there are characters who are more complex, but are instantly recognizable by their fans, i.e. Ryu's special inputs and Bayonetta's combo game. Very rarely is there a character that uses various gimmicks at once.

Adding elemental effects on different ARMS that either could be chosen on the menu or cycled through with Down B is also fine.

Adding elemental skills can effectively be changing the specials just like they do with the characters on Smash 4. Some special variations have wind effects, hit-stun ect. My idea was choosing a fixed set of special move variants either at the beginning or cycling through them.

By the way, you use simple sentences for some complex gimmicks in your example. My gimmick is a variation on Olimar's gimmick and based on the ARMS game. Olimar picks different elemental moves and projectiles that he can throw or hit characters with, while also having the ability to cycle through them. Not straightforward and simple, arguably.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Why am I picturing them how they are in their own game? LOL

How they are in their own game:

1. Select character
2. Select arms
3. Fight
4. See steps 2 and 3 until a victor is decided

How you're suggesting they are in their own game:

1. Select character
2. Fight
3. Summon the Pokemon Trainer to switch characters in the middle of combat
   
4. See steps 2 and 3 until a victor is decided

Call it a hunch but maybe that's not how they are in their own game????

 

[Bowserlick]

How they are in their own game:

1. Select character
2. Select arms
3. Fight
4. See steps 2 and 3 until a victor is decided

How you're suggesting they are in their own game:

1. Select character
2. Fight
3. Summon the Pokemon Trainer to switch characters in the middle of combat
   
4. See steps 2 and 3 until a victor is decided

Call it a hunch but maybe that's not how they are in their own game????

No. My first example was select Character and then select arms and then fight. Very simple. You can go back and read if you want.

 

[Opossum]

Spring Man, or whomever they choose for ARMS in Smash, should just be Smash's answer to Dhalsim. That alone is enough to make them stand out, since it's not like Dhalsim is getting in anytime soon, as great as that'd be.

 

[N3ON]

Is gonna be Sprung Man. Maybe Ribbon Lady as alt. If any. And no more than that. Yet.

Also I dunno why so many people are overcomplicating the moveset for an ARMS character like they wouldn't be super unique already.

Do you think it's possible that Sakurai (assuming he's working on....or at least overseeing the Switch version) doesn't like the idea of just creating a deluxe version with dlc included and a few extra characters and stages? (I think I read a translated interview once that he didn't like the idea of dlc or more accurately he wanted to make sure people were getting value before he provided dlc)

For some reason I'm starting to feel like it's more like Sakurai to want to go bigger and push the franchise even further. (and so we'll be waiting longer than expected for an actual reveal) The longer we wait for a Smash Switch reveal the more I feel like this could be the case.

I can absolutely see Sakurai not really being on board with a Deluxe edition, just like he probably wasn't keen on DLC, but then Nintendo was like "it's happening with or without you" and then, not wanting to relinquish series control, he was like "k fine :|"

Sakurai's mentality always seems to have been one of cramming as much content and value in the original game so as to not necessitate extra content, but that goes against Nintendo's current vision, and the ones footing the bill and owning the IP usually tend to win these things.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

I think there's absolutely a few things we HAVE to have in the next Smash. I want to put this out there to see what you guys think.

1. The most obvious, popular new Nintendo characters. I'm talking characters who are popular, who are recognizable, and who can sell the game on their own merits. The most obvious is the Inklings and someone from Arms. These are the characters that will pave the path for the next point.
2. Obscure but new Nintendo characters. Here I'm talking about people like Wonder Red. Though that is the most relevant one I can think of off my head, the little guy from Ever Oasis could come into play here as well. This will help attract interest for these characters and help Nintendo's future endeavors into these properties much more fruitful.
3. Oldschool characters. This is a big one. Nintendo almost exclusively catered towards its modern appeal in Wii U and 3DS, more than any other game in the franchise. Nintendo needs to cater to their older fanbase for this next game. Ridley, K. Rool, Isaac, even Krystal are all characters who have fallen from grace that are still held dearly by their older fanbase. Which are, from my experience, some of the most vocal.
4. Returning Veterans. Knowing how little changed between games with Lucas gives cause for concern as to why certain others were left out. Snake and Wolf were cuts that absolutely didn't need to happen. Wolf especially. These are the same types of characters as Mewtwo. Fan favorites who were cut without reason and whose fans are desperately begging for them to be given another chance.
5. A more competitive approach. Whether it's a port or a sequel doesn't matter, this can still be accomplished easily. Balance and technique are some of the more easy ways to welcome a new age of competitive Smash and while we see that Sm4sh is doing fine in the tournament realm, it's not making near as big of a splash as Melee. Few people play, fewer people watch, and thus few people are interested. That needs to change. Especially considering Nintendo VS. is finally a thing.
6. This is the big one. The one that will keep the game alive to a far wider audience. Single Player Content. This is absolutely a must. No more half-assing a single player mode with Classic, and All-Star, and the stupid Orders. The next game needs a better reason for people who aren't going to go online all the time, invite people over all the time, or go to tournaments all the time to keep on playing. I'll be honest I still love Wii U, I play it regularly, whenever I do though it's rarely for longer than an hour. There just isn't enough to keep me hooked. If there was more stuff to do then I would probably never put this game down. I need a game where when I get tired of Smashing my way through Classic I can jump to something more simple like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish and when I get tired of those I can jump to All-Star, Adventure Mode, or even another Subspace Emissary. There just isn't enough in the game right now for someone like me to warrant a purchase of the next game if it follows the same suit. Even getting trophies is a chore and not fun at all, or even relaxing in the case of Brawl. Better single player is a must.
7. A longer development. The most frustrating thing about Wii U/3DS is how incomplete they feel. They can't be compared to Brawl or Melee in depth. The most they can be compared to is 64 and at some points it doesn't even feel as complete as that game. There's so much great about all these games that the little things that are bad stick out even worse and Smash 4 has the most of them. Now I understand that 3DS being developed alongside the Wii U version is what hindered both and that isn't going to happen this time since the Switch is out but even then, if the game needs more time, it needs to be given more time. Even if it is just to add a little mode that might not make that huge of a difference it still needs to be given the time to add that. Each game in the series has felt bigger and better than the last even when hindsight on Brawl can be as cruel as it is, that game still added a lot to the formula. With Smash 4, aside from the character roster, the entire game was a step down from that.

OK, so that's my thoughts on what the next game NEEDS but what do you guys think. Too harsh? Too hopeful? Too Unrealistic? What do ya'll think the next game absolutely NEEDS for it to be a better Smash game.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nintendo almost exclusively catered towards its modern appeal in Wii U and 3DS,

They've been doing it since Brawl bud.

Let's look at the Brawl Newcomers real quick.

- Mario Sports Games/DKC GBA Ports/Donkey Konga
- Several Wario Ware Games/Wario Land 4
- The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker
- The apparently very successful GBA port of Kid Icarus (that was actually cited as a reason for his inclusion)/Partial Retro Appeal
- Mario Kart DS/Token Retro
- Various GBA/DS Kirby Games and Kirby Air Ride
- Various GBA/DS Kirby Games and Kirby Air Ride
- Pikmin 1/ Pikmin 2
- Star Fox Assault and Star Fox Command
- Pokemon Fire Red and Leaf Green
- Pokemon Diamond and Pearl
- Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance/Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
- Mother 3
- Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes
- A LOT of GBA/DS/GC/Wii Sonic Games

Literally every character introduced in Brawl barring token retro characters (and even they had appearances) had a notable appearance on the GBA/GC/DS or "Post Melee and Pre Brawl" period. Smash 4 took from the "Post Brawl and Pre Smash 4 Era."

This isn't a new thing.

And if you mean we haven't gotten any characters who have legacy, I say...

1. What defines a legacy and how long do we need to get one?
2. are all around 30 years old.
   
3. are all ten years old or more.
   
4. are almost ten years old at this point.

These are characters who have been around a long time. And those that were made about one to two years of Smash 4 () are few in number but even then Melee and Brawl had some of those two (you main two of them).

Smash 4 did exactly what Brawl did. People just weren't smart enough to see it (myself included). These characters have been used in recent times, yes but that isn't all they are. If we say Smash 4 simply appealed to the modern times and only modern times we have to say Brawl did too.

Knowing how little changed between games with Lucas

I beg your pardon? Smash 4 Lucas doesn't feel anything like what Brawl Lucas felt like.

Smash 4 Lucas is a combo character with a few hard hitting attacks where Brawl Lucas was.... well garbage frankly. He didn't have a gameplan.

He changed A LOT. I'd say he's about as different as Mewtwo was from Melee to Smash 4. They reinvented the character by tweaking the moveset. Just because he didn't get a decloning ala Roy doesn't mean he changed little.

Snake and Wolf were cuts that absolutely didn't need to happen. Wolf especially. These are the same types of characters as Mewtwo. Fan favorites who were cut without reason and whose fans are desperately begging for them to be given another chance.

Snake's reasons are obvious and I doubt Nintendo could have easily added him back in (honestly I think they really wanted to).

Wolf on the other hand was simply a victim of time and circumstance.

Both have reasons. Is it sad they're cut? Of course, but we can't act like their cuts are some great injustice. It's just the way things are.

A more competitive approach. Whether it's a port or a sequel doesn't matter, this can still be accomplished easily. Balance and technique are some of the more easy ways to welcome a new age of competitive Smash and while we see that Sm4sh is doing fine in the tournament realm, it's not making near as big of a splash as Melee. Few people play, fewer people watch, and thus few people are interested. That needs to change. Especially considering Nintendo VS. is finally a thing.

Smash 4 is one of the most successful fighting games out there.

Only two out there that are bigger right now are Street Fighter V and sometimes Melee.

Where do you get the idea that few people play or watch? Heck Smash 4 has had more entrants than Melee at EVO for every year its been there.

It's fine competitively.

They can't be compared to Brawl or Melee in depth.

Wrong word.

Smash 4 has more than enough depth to keep it going. It's gameplay is well liked and competitively successful.

I think you mean content.

Depth implies gameplay and I think most will think Smash 4 is pretty damn awesome in that regard.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

This is the big one. The one that will keep the game alive to a far wider audience. Single Player Content. This is absolutely a must. No more half-assing a single player mode with Classic, and All-Star, and the stupid Orders. The next game needs a better reason for people who aren't going to go online all the time, invite people over all the time, or go to tournaments all the time to keep on playing. I'll be honest I still love Wii U, I play it regularly, whenever I do though it's rarely for longer than an hour. There just isn't enough to keep me hooked. If there was more stuff to do then I would probably never put this game down. I need a game where when I get tired of Smashing my way through Classic I can jump to something more simple like Break the Targets, Board the Platforms, Race to the Finish and when I get tired of those I can jump to All-Star, Adventure Mode, or even another Subspace Emissary. There just isn't enough in the game right now for someone like me to warrant a purchase of the next game if it follows the same suit. Even getting trophies is a chore and not fun at all, or even relaxing in the case of Brawl. Better single player is a must.

I can agree on better Single Player content. I would definitely be up for new modes and/or more polishing current ones for single player. As someone who wants to develop games or at least be involved in game development, I wouldn't want to neglect single player and multiplayer aspects on a game that has both.

I could go for something like Melee's "Adventure Mode" being expanded upon. I could see Mario try to avoid some of Eggman's robots in Sonic's world.

As for trophy collecting, there's an idea that I based off of Namco Museum games on the PS1 that would make trophies a little more fun to collect. I thought of expanding the "Vault" system to a full museum-like environment similar to Namco did with their arcade hits with those PS1 games. Each franchise would get a hall where you can learn a franchise's history, view models of playable fighters, buy costumes and accessories for Miis (with in-game currency) regardless if they were playable fighters or not, displaying your favorite trophies of a franchise to show off as a display or snapshot opportunities, better handling of "Masterpieces", and interactive parts of a hall that people could experience like opening a Zelda treasure chest. The actual halls would make players feel like they are in that franchises world; talking to NPCs that are actually from the world would be a huge plus. The main hub would be a good social area to chat with friends, get some snapshots, and maybe a chance to find your next challenger. There also would be quick options for a "get on with it" experience. Man, I would be all for this mode.

• The most obvious, popular new Nintendo characters. I'm talking characters who are popular, who are recognizable, and who can sell the game on their own merits. The most obvious is the Inklings and someone from Arms. These are the characters that will pave the path for the next point.

• Obscure but new Nintendo characters. Here I'm talking about people like Wonder Red. Though that is the most relevant one I can think of off my head, the little guy from Ever Oasis could come into play here as well. This will help attract interest for these characters and help Nintendo's future endeavors into these properties much more fruitful.

• Oldschool characters. This is a big one. Nintendo almost exclusively catered towards its modern appeal in Wii U and 3DS, more than any other game in the franchise. Nintendo needs to cater to their older fanbase for this next game. Ridley, K. Rool, Isaac, even Krystal are all characters who have fallen from grace that are still held dearly by their older fanbase. Which are, from my experience, some of the most vocal.

As for characters, I am all for new additions to the roster. As long as they are from video games by origin and have at least one Nintendo appearance, I am mostly fine with additions. A bonus thing would be if said additions brought something new to the table. There's so many to choose from like King K. Rool, Golden Sun's Isaac, John Raimi from Geist, Wonder Red from Wonderful 101, Inklings, Bomberman, and I could go on for days about any potential newcomers.

I would also freshen up the roster and any newcomers with true alternative costumes pulled from the characters' home franchises and also move tweaks. I would go as far as adding crossover outfits that keep within Smash's limits without being too restrictive (as in canon only for crossover outfits would be too limiting) and costumes would be fitting for the character getting the outfit in question. On said crossover costumes, I would give the outfits regardless if the costume base character was a playable fighter or not.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Swamp is right, Smash 4 followed mostly the same trend. However, it didn't expand a lot on existing Nintendo franchises like Brawl did. Outside of Fire Emblem, Mario and Kid Icarus, what long running Nintendo franchise got anything more than just a stage from the most recent games? Where Brawl added characters from Zelda, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Metroid and Star Fox, Smash 4 seemed to give these franchises no love at all. And that's where the most complains come from I imagine. At least, that's my complaint about the newcomers of Smash 4.

I didn't really have a strong connection with any of the characters like I did with Brawl's newcomers, who I all liked tremendously except for Olimar and R.O.B. maybe (neutral towards them, or expected someone else in their place). I actively supported characters as Diddy (of course), Ike, Toon Link, Lucas, and was extremely excited when they got revealed on the Brawl Dojo.

Granted, Smash 4 gave me Mewtwo back, and that was the most hype I felt for any 'newcomer' in Smash 4 honestly. Outside of Diddy returning which was extremely obvious, I was most excited about the returns of Toon Link and Ike, as many thought they would be axed.

 

[Opossum]

Swamp is right, Smash 4 followed mostly the same trend. However, it didn't expand a lot on existing Nintendo franchises like Brawl did. Outside of Fire Emblem, Mario and Kid Icarus, what long running Nintendo franchise got anything more than just a stage from the most recent games? Where Brawl added characters from Zelda, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Metroid and Star Fox, Smash 4 seemed to give these franchises no love at all. And that's where the most complains come from I imagine. At least, that's my complaint about the newcomers of Smash 4.

I didn't really have a strong connection with any of the characters like I did with Brawl's newcomers, who I all liked tremendously except for Olimar and R.O.B. maybe (neutral towards them, or expected someone else in their place). I actively supported characters as Diddy (of course), Ike, Toon Link, Lucas, and was extremely excited when they got revealed on the Brawl Dojo.

Granted, Smash 4 gave me Mewtwo back, and that was the most hype I felt for any 'newcomer' in Smash 4 honestly. Outside of Diddy returning which was extremely obvious, I was most excited about the returns of Toon Link and Ike, as many thought they would be axed.

Some of those got love in other parts of the game.

The Legend of Zelda got several new Assist Trophies like Skull Kid, Midna, and Ghirahim. Kirby got quite a few smash Run enemies in comparison to other series. Metroid even got some new Assists as well, with Dark Samus and Mother Brain, alongside Zero Suit Samus getting some moveset tweaks.

Star Fox can at least be justified in my opinion since between Brawl and 4, the only thing it got was the 3DS port of Star Fox 64. Donkey Kong is the only big veteran series I can honestly say got shafted pretty hard. No newcomers, one new stage (a good stage, mind you, but still just one), still no Assist Trophies, three Smash Run enemies (two of which being different Kremling colors), no new items. Even music from the series was relatively scarce, minus a ton of Jungle level remixes.

So yeah, of the series who didn't get playable characters, at least they got good treatment in other areas. Poor Donkey Kong though...