Smash Theory 5: Edgeguarding

[Link24a]

Find a new favorite character?

Are they at a decent percentage?

I have. I've tried Ness, roy, and many others and none are as fun.

Yeah. At least 60/80

 

[Munomario777]

I have. I've tried Ness, roy, and many others and none are as fun.

Then I suppose the game isn't quite for you, if none of the characters "click" with you.

Yeah. At least 60/80

You might not be landing the tipper, then. I hear that's pretty important for Marth.

 

[Xavix]

I hear a lot of people saying that edgeguarding doesn't exist because most characters just recover. That's true with every smash game though, some characters just have great and hard to punish recoveries. (exception might go to Melee, but even PM has characters with great recoveries.)

 

[Link24a]

Then I suppose the game isn't quite for you, if none of the characters "click" with you.

You might not be landing the tipper, then. I hear that's pretty important for Marth.

Yeah. That's why I don't play it

The tipper is so small it's hard to land even if you really try because they're moving too.

 

[Kuro_Neko]

I don't see why people bother complaining, if the thread is about smash 4 and you play melee or pm, why bother complaining and ruining someone's day, just stay in your own community thread if you want to be that way jeesh

 

[Lime Cultivist]

Edgehogging isn't the only part of edgeguarding, but it was an amazing mechanic that's perfect for smash.
These videos can be helpful to people though I guess.

 

[The 0ne]

A great way to get your point across is to do it in a way that doesn't provoke arguments. I like to live my life by the simple rule of "if it's arguable, it's a ****ing opinion."

Instead of saying "There's no edgeguarding in Smash 4" (a ridiculously easy statement to contest)
Say "I dislike edgeguarding in Smash 4" (a statement that's much less arguable because it's obvious that's it's your own ****ing opinion, and frankly, it's much more true of what you actually want to say)

And if someone tries to argue your opinions (dependent on the situation) then they're completely in the wrong most of the time.

 

[Phoenix502]

When your favorite character just feels terrible how are you supposed to have fun? Seriously.

what exactly is your definition of "fun" in this context, because if it's "being unstoppable with my favorite character" you need practice...

I've ran into quite a few Marth mains in Smash 4 that will prove that he's just as capable here. the only real difference between Brawl/Melee and Smash 4 that I'm immediately aware of, besides his sword's range, is that his aerial tippers launch differently, which makes a Ken Combo much more difficult (and practically impossible if you go tippers only).

A great way to get your point across is to do it in a way that doesn't provoke arguments. I like to live my life by the simple rule of "if it's arguable, it's a ****ing opinion."

[...]

And if someone tries to argue your opinions (dependent on the situation) then they're completely in the wrong most of the time.

unfortunately, from what I figure, quite a few folks who make attempts at stating facts are likely the types who have studied Melee and PM's exact data on certain things. you know, such as frame-by-frame observations on movement, hitboxes, etc.

by trying to do that for Smash 4, I fear they actually believe they can make accurate analysis on this game like they did before... I do remember someone suggesting that Rolls weren't buffed in Smash 4, but that it's instead a placebo effect because they aren't getting countered at the right time.

[Jesus, if this were in person I'd be unusually motormouthy today...]

 

[_gold_]

It's funny how many guys a butthurt over the idea that this video is about "edgeguarding".
Question. Does it matter?

 

[Kewkky]

Keitaro should make a video about "reads" and "mindgames". Just the basic thought process of what goes on in good players' minds as they pull off reads is good enough. It's pretty hard to teach others about understanding patterns, maybe some visual aids would help newer players pass their plateau.

 

[MonkeyArms]

Yeah. That's why I don't play it

The tipper is so small it's hard to land even if you really try because they're moving too.

Lucina exsists for a reason.

Also, you saying its hard to edge guard most the time is just a sign of
A. A little mac
B. No to little experience in legit competitive play whatsoever.

It may be just an opinion, but its not one I can really see, being very vague, as edge guarding is easy to pull of on crappy recoveries.

Truly the first, and edge guarding doesn't exist in Smash 4

Lolnope.

 

[Link24a]

Lucina exsists for a reason.

Also, you saying its hard to edge guard most the time is just a sign of
A. A little mac
B. No to little experience in legit competitive play whatsoever.

Little Mac is difficult to edgeguard...? Also I've been to almost 20 melee tournaments, but if you're talking about smash 4, I've played approximately 1500 matches in for glory. Which is where it should be EASIER to edge guard people

Also lucina's aerials aren't really that much stronger

 

[Link24a]

what exactly is your definition of "fun" in this context, because if it's "being unstoppable with my favorite character" you need practice...

No, it's when my favorite character is terrible. I wouldn't care if he was mid tier but they took away absolutely everything. They made him slower, weaker, and have a shorter sword. How is that fun?

@ Munomario777 why do you keep liking every single comment defending edge guarding in smash 4



Sorry for double post

 

[Kewkky]

Little Mac is difficult to edgeguard...? Also I've been to almost 20 melee tournaments, but if you're talking about smash 4, I've played approximately 1500 matches in for glory. Which is where it should be EASIER to edge guard people

I think it's actually harder to edgeguard online. One wrong "prediction" (for lack of better word regarding lag) and you could either end up being edgeguarded yourself, gimped by your opponent as he is recovering, or you'd let him recover without doing much at all. While offline you can react at the same moment you see something happening, instead of having to "predict" how the opponent will react.

 

[Link24a]

I think it's actually harder to edgeguard online. One wrong "prediction" (for lack of better word regarding lag) and you could either end up being edgeguarded yourself, gimped by your opponent as he is recovering, or you'd let him recover without doing much at all. While offline you can react at the same moment you see something happening, instead of having to "predict" how the opponent will react.

I mean without lag

 

[MonkeyArms]

Little Mac is difficult to edgeguard...? Also I've been to almost 20 melee tournaments, but if you're talking about smash 4, I've played approximately 1500 matches in for glory. Which is where it should be EASIER to edge guard people

Also lucina's aerials aren't really that much stronger

No, it means you play Little Mac.
And I don't care how many for glory matches you've played, I used the word "legit" for a reason. In any serious competitive set, at least one stock is taken by an edge guard in most cases. If you think edge guarding is hard, you probably just aren't good at the game yet.

 

[Link24a]

No, it means you play Little Mac.
And I don't care how many for glory matches you've played, I used the word "legit" for a reason. In any serious competitive set, at least one stock is taken by an edge guard in most cases. If you think edge guarding is hard, you probably just aren't good at the game yet.

https://youtu.be/9CY4K9SDszk

Only 3 stocks were taken offstage in these 5 games. 1 was an accident

 

[The 0ne]

unfortunately, from what I figure, quite a few folks who make attempts at stating facts are likely the types who have studied Melee and PM's exact data on certain things. you know, such as frame-by-frame observations on movement, hitboxes, etc.

by trying to do that for Smash 4, I fear they actually believe they can make accurate analysis on this game like they did before... I do remember someone suggesting that Rolls weren't buffed in Smash 4, but that it's instead a placebo effect because they aren't getting countered at the right time.

Well, sure, but I was more talking about making claims they believe to be true rather than concrete facts that can't be contested. Like if I say "fox's shine is frame 1," that's a fact. If I say "fox's shine is OP," that's an opinion.

 

[J.Noble]

http://youtu.be/BQlzsXOtves

Edge guarding is an essential concept in smash 4. Every character/player has their weaknesses. Winning involves exploiting those weakness with the tools provided and the knowledge of your own limits. Smash is a game where every opportunity should be considered. Jumping off the stage and strategically going for the kill is a big one.

 

[Keitaro]

Be honest: the music was keitaros idea wasn't it.

Edgeguarding in smash 4 is harder but those that learn it and can do it more successfully than others have the advantage so making comments like "it doesn't exist" is pointless.

Nope, it was False's music!

 

[Phoenix502]

No, it's when my favorite character is terrible. I wouldn't care if he was mid tier but they took away absolutely everything. They made him slower, weaker, and have a shorter sword. How is that fun?

I think the problem we see here is you're adverse to change... Marth's your favorite character, and he was good before. now he's different, and you believe it's for the worst, I hate to be the one to say this (cause someone else could do it better), but you need to learn how to adapt, man.

Marth is different, that much is fact. he will not be Melee, He will not be Brawl/Project M, but if you believe they took away everything that made him a contender, then I'm sure there's an fair few Marth mains who are more than happy to prove you wrong.

if you've been playing Smash competitively for any extra length of time, you should know the phrase "No Johns"

 

[Munomario777]

No, it's when my favorite character is terrible. I wouldn't care if he was mid tier but they took away absolutely everything. They made him slower, weaker, and have a shorter sword. How is that fun?

If Marth is not fun, then find a different character who is. It's that simple.

@ Munomario777 why do you keep liking every single comment defending edge guarding in smash 4

Because I happen to like Smash 4 and its edgeguarding.

 

[MonkeyArms]

https://youtu.be/9CY4K9SDszk

Only 3 stocks were taken offstage in these 5 games. 1 was an accident

Divide that by two and get 1 in 2.5 games.
Dum dum gimmy gum gum.

 

[Racuncai]

Divide that by two and get 1 in 2.5 games.
Dum dum gimmy gum gum.

Well i just see 1 in the entire set because is hard to do maybe not worth it, ZSS lost an stock trying to do it again, this wil be a top 8 standard because is a higth tier match.

Is like edge guards are non existent, and most of the time we just see off stage punishes.

 

[Link24a]

I think the problem we see here is you're adverse to change... Marth's your favorite character, and he was good before. now he's different, and you believe it's for the worst, I hate to be the one to say this (cause someone else could do it better), but you need to learn how to adapt, man.

Marth is different, that much is fact. he will not be Melee, He will not be Brawl/Project M, but if you believe they took away everything that made him a contender, then I'm sure there's an fair few Marth mains who are more than happy to prove you wrong.

if you've been playing Smash competitively for any extra length of time, you should know the phrase "No Johns"

Oh, so I should adapt by spamming shield breaker and counter because those were the only things buffed? No. They made him worse in every single way except for those two moves. He was given no new options and didn't benefit at all from the engine in any way. I'm using the same brawl tactics but they're far less effective and a lot less fun. There's not really anything new I can learn.

Also I know there are good Marth players but everyone knows he's bad.

Because I happen to like Smash 4 and its edgeguarding.

You're practically ass kissing the game at this point. Seriously, recovery is absolutely gimped in this game.

Divide that by two and get 1 in 2.5 games.

Oh I thought you said each game

One per set? That's dumb. Even I can do that. In Melee or 64 edge guarding takes out half or more of the stocks.



Ok, really what I'm saying is that edge guarding is less effective in this game due to lower falling speed, higher air speed, higher jumps, and insane recoveries (no I'm not talking about little mac).

Edge guarding is only effective when you're at kill percent or almost that. Sheik, probably the best edge guarder in the game, has perfect falling speed for it and has fair, but it's pretty weak. Bouncing fish is good too, but it only works when recovering high, which a lot of players avoid because they know that going for the ledge from below is the best option.

In brawl, you could have at least held ledge to force them onstage, or maybe mix it up sometimes.

Edge guarding is just giving you little reward for little risk, something this game loves to implement into everything (unless you're trying to knock Ness out of his up b). In Melee, it was high risk high reward. Almost all the time. Even edge hogging. Yeah in smash 4 Its possible, but very, very forgiving on both ends. Which is saddening.

Low risk low reward in almost everything you do is not the way to go for a competitive game

 

[Sonic94]

Só u dislike this game becouse youre main was nerfed.
WOW, Maybe I shouldnt play pokemon anymore becouse Dragon type, my favorite, was nerfed, and my favorite poke Hydreigon went from OU (tier A+ for those who never played poke "siriusly") into UU (B-) with his 4x weakness to Fairy.
Or Maybe I should quit MKX becouse Kitana Isnt top tier anymore.
(Actually Slowbro is my fav pok and he got a huge buff with The mega form, but I think u see my point.).

I quit pokemon because of this.

 

[topspin1617]

Oh, so I should adapt by spamming shield breaker and counter because those were the only things buffed? No. They made him worse in every single way except for those two moves. He was given no new options and didn't benefit at all from the engine in any way. I'm using the same brawl tactics but they're far less effective and a lot less fun. There's not really anything new I can learn.

Also I know there are good Marth players but everyone knows he's bad.



You're practically *** kissing the game at this point. Seriously, recovery is absolutely gimped in this game.


Oh I thought you said each game

One per set? That's dumb. Even I can do that. In Melee or 64 edge guarding takes out half or more of the stocks.



Ok, really what I'm saying is that edge guarding is less effective in this game due to lower falling speed, higher air speed, higher jumps, and insane recoveries (no I'm not talking about little mac).

Edge guarding is only effective when you're at kill percent or almost that. Sheik, probably the best edge guarder in the game, has perfect falling speed for it and has fair, but it's pretty weak. Bouncing fish is good too, but it only works when recovering high, which a lot of players avoid because they know that going for the ledge from below is the best option.

In brawl, you could have at least held ledge to force them onstage, or maybe mix it up sometimes.

Edge guarding is just giving you little reward for little risk, something this game loves to implement into everything (unless you're trying to knock Ness out of his up b). In Melee, it was high risk high reward. Almost all the time. Even edge hogging. Yeah in smash 4 Its possible, but very, very forgiving on both ends. Which is saddening.

Low risk low reward in almost everything you do is not the way to go for a competitive game

1. Well there's the problem... don't use tactics that no longer work. Fox can't really shinespike anymore, but that doesn't make him a bad character now. Unless, of course, you're constantly going for shinespikes.

You're also way oversimplifying the idea of "adaptation", almost saying "the only moves that should ever be used are ones that have been buffed since a previous title". For example Peach's dsmash has been significantly nerfed since Melee, but that doesn't mean I just say "move's been nerfed, so it's useless and I'll never use it". It still has its uses. Finding those uses in Smash 4 is what you're supposed to do; of course you're going to have trouble if you're playing a character who's been changed the same way.

2. All he said was he likes Smash 4 and edgeguarding, that's a**-kissing the game to you?

3. Edge hogging is not high-risk.

4. In actual high-level Smash 4 play, edge guarding IS high risk/high reward. In fact I'd say the ability to edge guard effectively is one of the most important aspects of Smash 4; the ability to take a stock earlier than usual is HUGE in this game. Even if you don't outright take the stock, you can still be adding on damage and keeping up pressure.

If you watch high-level play, it's really hard NOT to notice how important it is. And by that I don't mean randoms on For Glory.

 

[Link24a]

1. Well there's the problem... don't use tactics that no longer work. Fox can't really shinespike anymore, but that doesn't make him a bad character now. Unless, of course, you're constantly going for shinespikes.

You're also way oversimplifying the idea of "adaptation", almost saying "the only moves that should ever be used are ones that have been buffed since a previous title". For example Peach's dsmash has been significantly nerfed since Melee, but that doesn't mean I just say "move's been nerfed, so it's useless and I'll never use it". It still has its uses. Finding those uses in Smash 4 is what you're supposed to do; of course you're going to have trouble if you're playing a character who's been changed the same way.

2. All he said was he likes Smash 4 and edgeguarding, that's a**-kissing the game to you?

3. Edge hogging is not high-risk.

4. In actual high-level Smash 4 play, edge guarding IS high risk/high reward. In fact I'd say the ability to edge guard effectively is one of the most important aspects of Smash 4; the ability to take a stock earlier than usual is HUGE in this game. Even if you don't outright take the stock, you can still be adding on damage and keeping up pressure.

If you watch high-level play, it's really hard NOT to notice how important it is. And by that I don't mean randoms on For Glory.

ALL OF MARTH'S MOVES WERE NERFED IN EVERY CONCIEVABLE WAY
just stop

It's ass kissing when you like every single comment in defense of it

There's some risk involved with edge hogging because if your invincibility runs out, tour reaction time for rolling onstage needs to be on point or you're getting hit

I don't really see any major risk involved with edge guarding, and once again, edge guarding seems to only kill like 20% earlier or something (look at the Mr r vs Nairo match I linked) not really much of a payoff

I don't even need to explain why it's low risk low reward because it being low risk/low reward is the reason this game is two stocks

Seriously, 64 had the largest risk with the highest reward. That's why it's 5 stocks
Melee had pretty high risk for high reward, but not broken like in 64. So it's 4 stocks
Brawl had a few things that are high risk/high reward, while not too much, which is why it's 3 stocks
Smash 4 has barely any high risk/high reward in anything that hasn't been patched out, so it's 2 stocks

 

[jmanup85]

If you truly used Marth you'd already know that he can murder people offstage easily. Sounds like scrub mentality to me because you complain and you being near the ledge and not being able to do something if someone is coming up right next to it.... but wait ledge trumping exists! Or run off and bair since they cant tech if they are next to the stage... but obviously you are such a great Marth main that this was all factored into your calculations right? Just to end your whining on this; ledge trump then and go for dair or bair depending on how you want them to die and stop being a scrub offstage.

 

[Link24a]

If you truly used Marth you'd already know that he can murder people offstage easily. Sounds like scrub mentality to me because you complain and you being near the ledge and not being able to do something if someone is coming up right next to it.... but wait ledge trumping exists! Or run off and bair since they cant tech if they are next to the stage... but obviously you are such a great Marth main that this was all factored into your calculations right? Just to end your whining on this; ledge trump then and go for dair or bair depending on how you want them to die and stop being a scrub offstage.

Dair is so terribly difficult to spike with no matter what. 1 frame and it's right in the middle of it.

This isn't about how good I am anymore. I quit smash 4 before I was good. I'm talking about how good Marth is in general and how effective edge guarding is in general

 

[jmanup85]

Dair is so terribly difficult to spike with no matter what. 1 frame and it's right in the middle of it.

This isn't about how good I am anymore. I quit smash 4 before I was good. I'm talking about how good Marth is in general and how effective edge guarding is in general

And I'm telling you it's not even that hard because I can do it consistently even against Villager. Especially after a trump and just fyi it is extremely effective to go out there and end that stock early. In general Marth is getting way better and is pretty much becoming a high tier character with all the buffs he's getting. If you quit the game then don't speak on the character in a game that you don't even play anymore

 

[Link24a]

my classmate's mother-in-law makes $78 /hour on the internet . She has been unemployed for seven months but last month her check was $16983 just working on the internet for a few hours. see here now.....
=======>>>>>>>>www.online-jobs9.com

WOW ! ! ! ! ! !

THANKS ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[Link24a]

And I'm telling you it's not even that hard because I can do it consistently even against Villager. Especially after a trump and just fyi it is extremely effective to go out there and end that stock early. In general Marth is getting way better and is pretty much becoming a high tier character with all the buffs he's getting. If you quit the game then don't speak on the character in a game that you don't even play anymore

It's not difficult just not very effective. Also you're not always able to go out there. Marth and Ness are kinda floaty so you can't go down fast at all. I've been watching marth's changes very closely and have been testing them out every now and then and I have to say the only true buffs have been his jab, allowing for a tipper fsmash setup and nair finally dealing adequate damage. Everything else has been pretty stingy

 

[jmanup85]

Dude uair has less landing lag and so does dair so now you can pull or strings and combos with footstools that you couldn't do before. Fair and bair also got less landing lag and while not super useful do help him. Idk what the heck you're talking about saying everything else was stingy. Then there is some change to hitlag so it gets even better for him.

 

[topspin1617]

ALL OF MARTH'S MOVES WERE NERFED IN EVERY CONCIEVABLE WAY
just stop

It's *** kissing when you like every single comment in defense of it

There's some risk involved with edge hogging because if your invincibility runs out, tour reaction time for rolling onstage needs to be on point or you're getting hit

I don't really see any major risk involved with edge guarding, and once again, edge guarding seems to only kill like 20% earlier or something (look at the Mr r vs Nairo match I linked) not really much of a payoff

I don't even need to explain why it's low risk low reward because it being low risk/low reward is the reason this game is two stocks

Seriously, 64 had the largest risk with the highest reward. That's why it's 5 stocks
Melee had pretty high risk for high reward, but not broken like in 64. So it's 4 stocks
Brawl had a few things that are high risk/high reward, while not too much, which is why it's 3 stocks
Smash 4 has barely any high risk/high reward in anything that hasn't been patched out, so it's 2 stocks

No. Stop being dramatic.

Marth still has strengths. For example, his tippered fsmash can kill extremely early; in a game where characters survive longer, this type of advantage is huge. Marth is also fairly agile for someone who can hit like a truck.

He also has a lot of edge guard potential in particular. His range may have been shortened, but disjointed hitboxes are very helpful when going for edge guards.

Why do you care so much if the guy likes posts? That just crosses the line from "I don't like Smash 4" to "I hate Smash 4 and everyone who likes it is an a**-kissing Sakurai worshipper!"

Okay, there's some risk to edge hogging if you mistime it. Fine. It's certainly not a HIGH risk option as you previously stated. In fact, ledge hogging is probably one of the most low risk/high reward options Melee has.

You don't see any risk with edge guarding? The fact that the tables can be flipped and you can be the one KO'd isn't a risk? The fact that if you miss and allow the opponent back to the stage, thereby giving them stage control, isn't a risk?

Deep edge guards can KO much more than 20% earlier than usual... but even that 20% can be huge. In a game where survivability is high and the standard is only 2 stock, 20% can make all the difference in the world. Plus, a stock is a stock; you want to take them as quickly as possible, and if you can do it earlier offstage, great.

The standard is 2 stock for a lot of reasons. Characters simply survive longer due to wide blast zones and good recoveries... that's probably the main reason, a simple matter of time. It's not some statement about edge guarding being useless.

 

[BlkSheep642]

Nope, it was False's music!

What song is this? I like it.

Edit: nvm, found it.

 

[Arroz]

If you're right next to the ledge and the opponent is beneath it there's practically nothing you can do

Except a dropzone bair with lots of chars

 

[Link24a]

Dude uair has less landing lag and so does dair so now you can pull or strings and combos with footstools that you couldn't do before. Fair and bair also got less landing lag and while not super useful do help him. Idk what the heck you're talking about saying everything else was stingy. Then there is some change to hitlag so it gets even better for him.

Yeah all of his aerials got like 2 less frames of landing lag which honestly doesn't help his combos in any way and really just makes them a little less punishable

No. Stop being dramatic.

Marth still has strengths. For example, his tippered fsmash can kill extremely early; in a game where characters survive longer, this type of advantage is huge. Marth is also fairly agile for someone who can hit like a truck.

He also has a lot of edge guard potential in particular. His range may have been shortened, but disjointed hitboxes are very helpful when going for edge guards.

Why do you care so much if the guy likes posts? That just crosses the line from "I don't like Smash 4" to "I hate Smash 4 and everyone who likes it is an a**-kissing Sakurai worshipper!"

Okay, there's some risk to edge hogging if you mistime it. Fine. It's certainly not a HIGH risk option as you previously stated. In fact, ledge hogging is probably one of the most low risk/high reward options Melee has.

You don't see any risk with edge guarding? The fact that the tables can be flipped and you can be the one KO'd isn't a risk? The fact that if you miss and allow the opponent back to the stage, thereby giving them stage control, isn't a risk?

Deep edge guards can KO much more than 20% earlier than usual... but even that 20% can be huge. In a game where survivability is high and the standard is only 2 stock, 20% can make all the difference in the world. Plus, a stock is a stock; you want to take them as quickly as possible, and if you can do it earlier offstage, great.

The standard is 2 stock for a lot of reasons. Characters simply survive longer due to wide blast zones and good recoveries... that's probably the main reason, a simple matter of time. It's not some statement about edge guarding being useless.

His tipper forward smash is the only thing keeping him from being trash. All of his aerials are worse in damage, speed, and range. All of his throws are pretty bad after very low percents.

I would call someone out even if they were doing it in defense of Melee. Seriously you shouldn't be staying here for the sole purpose of pressing a like button over and over.

Edge hogging at least allows you to cover ledge though.

Everyone's recovery is so broken that it's not likely that you will die from attempting an edge guard.

Yeah 20% is 20% but that's not exactly high reward...

Brawl has similar blast zones and similar recoveries. It's exactly what I said

 

[jmanup85]

Yeah all of his aerials got like 2 less frames of landing lag which honestly doesn't help his combos in any way and really just makes them a little less punishable.

http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-high-damage-combo-and-kill-setups.413031/

Please do me a favor and stop being wrong. Dair has more than 2 frames less landing lag and iirc it's 4. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when proof is available for you to see anytime by visiting the boards or using google, youtube, etc. Stop posting about a character that you admittedly don't use.

 

[Arroz]

The tipper is so small it's hard to land even if you really try because they're moving too.

So practice proper spacing. Try perfect pivots. I learned perfect pivots quicker than i learned to wave dash. Simply put, git gud.