Smash Theory 5: Edgeguarding

[Link24a]

http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-high-damage-combo-and-kill-setups.413031/

Please do me a favor and stop being wrong. Dair has more than 2 frames less landing lag and iirc it's 4. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when proof is available for you to see anytime by visiting the boards or using google, youtube, etc. Stop posting about a character that you admittedly don't use.

I know that. I said "pretty much" because I didn't want to be that specific. Also nair had no landing lag reduced at all. Once again, not helping combos at all and just slightly reducing punishability. Calm down and stop nitpicking

 

[Link24a]

So practice proper spacing. Try perfect pivots. I learned perfect pivots quicker than i learned to wave dash. Simply put, git gud.

That's because perfect pivoting a a ton easier. Also that doesn't help with aerials which is where it's important

 

[jmanup85]

I know that. I said "pretty much" because I didn't want to be that specific. Also nair had no landing lag reduced at all. Once again, not helping combos at all and just slightly reducing punishability. Calm down and stop nitpicking

You didn't even look at the thread or it's contents if you came back here with that weak response. Those lag reductions did help his combo game so stop posting this nonsense of yours.

 

[Link24a]

You didn't even look at the thread or it's contents if you came back here with that weak response. Those lag reductions did help his combo game so stop posting this nonsense of yours.

Sorry I watched the video right after posting. That setup looks awfully percent specific. (first video I mean)

Still though. You van tech that down air.

I'm not really able to stop and read a long thing right now and just spitting out response ms as fast as I can to keep up with all the replies

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

You know, after seeing this in response to a complaint against Smash 4, someone aught to do a montage of these complaints getting addressed in actual play.

"Edgeguarding doesn't exist in Smash 4"
"Rolls are OP in Smash 4"
"Spammers are cheap in 4 Glory"
etc.

just have a choice few moments of such being proven wrong... call the montage "No Johns: The Movie" or something


I won't argue that hogging was a part of edgeguarding in past games, and is about as valid a strategy as anything else used to win, but I will not hide the fact that I don't like it, predominantly because it means that any competent player with a decent sense of timing can do it. it sort of kills a lot of incentive to use very many other fighters that don't have a strong and flexible recovery, and that kind of encourages staying safely on the stage, as opposed to chasing the target and making certain they're not coming back.

something that, IMO, is detrimental to Smash 4, which seems to really encourage offstage play...

Guy never thought of jumping and Air dodging? Smash-4 has no edge guarding get over it. Thanks.

 

[Racuncai]

Guy never thought of jumping and Air dodging? Smash-4 has no edge guarding get over it. Thanks.

No dude, that was an edguard because it was near the edge, Kappa.

 

[Phoenix502]

Sorry I watched the video right after posting. That setup looks awfully percent specific. (first video I mean)

Still though. You van tech that down air.

I'm not really able to stop and read a long thing right now and just spitting out response ms as fast as I can to keep up with all the replies

at this point, buster, your need to respond to everything ASAP has caused your argument to fall apart... go to the marth boards, CHALLENGE them, and show us evidence that Marth's supposedly not worth playing. not believing one person is one thing, but this is rediculous.

if this were in person, I'd bet money that you'd lose a majority of them, with johns at the ready...

 

[Phoenix502]

absentminded double post, pardon, please

Guy never thought of jumping and Air dodging? Smash-4 has no edge guarding get over it. Thanks.

gr8 b8 m8. if you wanna believe that, it's your loss.

 

[Link24a]

at this point, buster, your need to respond to everything ASAP has caused your argument to fall apart... go to the marth boards, CHALLENGE them, and show us evidence that Marth's supposedly not worth playing. not believing one person is one thing, but this is rediculous.

if this were in person, I'd bet money that you'd lose a majority of them, with johns at the ready...

Well of course I'd lose. I'm bad at Smash 4 because I'm too busy playing every single other game in the series

My argument didn't fall apart. All I did was reply too early to your one post and then say it was my bad right after. Still that thread isn't that great. Dair to fsmash can be teched or DI'd, and probably is terribly percent/character specific.

Also its not my fault I wasn't quite able to sit down and read/reply to something at that time

@ Munomario777 you gonna stop liking every comment that is against my case?

 

[Munomario777]

@ Munomario777 you gonna stop liking every comment that is against my case?

You gonna stop criticizing me for liking posts that I agree with?

 

[Link24a]

You gonna stop criticizing me for liking posts that I agree with?

I mean you barely even commenting anymore just coming here every single time you see a notification just to like the comment. We get it

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

absentminded double post, pardon, please


gr8 b8 m8. if you wanna believe that, it's your loss.

Enough with the trolling, you can clearly view that the Ganondorf was going to Dair, all the guy had to do was jump and Air dodge.

Next the Ganondorf would have to recover or Uair, and if the other player knows how to Wall tech, then the Ganondorf wouldn't have got the kill. Thanks.

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

No dude, that was an edguard because it was near the edge, Kappa.

Exactly "it's an Edge guard".

 

[Munomario777]

I mean you barely even commenting anymore just coming here every single time you see a notification just to like the comment. We get it

So, tell me again. What is so terrible about liking posts that I happen to agree with?

 

[Link24a]

So, tell me again. What is so terrible about liking posts that I happen to agree with?

I don't want to keep arguing this

It's just almost compulsive how quickly and how many

 

[Phoenix502]

Well of course I'd lose. I'm bad at Smash 4 because I'm too busy playing every single other game in the series

My argument didn't fall apart. All I did was reply too early to your one post and then say it was my bad right after. Still that thread isn't that great. Dair to fsmash can be teched or DI'd, and probably is terribly percent/character specific.

Also its not my fault I wasn't quite able to sit down and read/reply to something at that time

that's your reason for spouting this sudden "I suck at Smash 4" nonsense, because you're "too busy playing [64, Melee, Brawl, and PM]"? that invalidated most of your complaints right there! Marth is different, I said this before, but if you're not good enough to adapt, you should not be justified in complaining.

also, I main Ike and Charizard in PM, and I can use Marth and Roy competently. sure, my reaction time takes a hit... but I'm still capable of holding my own. "No Johns", for the second time.

Enough with the trolling, you can clearly view that the Ganondorf was going to Dair, all the guy had to do was jump and Air dodge.

Next the Ganondorf would have to recover or Uair, and if the other player knows how to Wall tech, then the Ganondorf wouldn't have got the kill. Thanks.

yes, it's obvious that Ganon is going for a meteor, the Doc was likely too focused on getting back on stage to realize it in time, I also noticed the Doc was DIing toward the Stage, hoping to tech off it before losing. I also noticed that was a For Glory video... edgeguarding still exists, it's just not as easy as snatching the edge first and smirking at the stock you took.

also, I wasn't trolling, I just used that face because I didn't think anyone would take me seriously... and I thought the way I worded that was amusing.

 

[Link24a]

that's your reason for spouting this sudden "I suck at Smash 4" nonsense, because you're "too busy playing [64, Melee, Brawl, and PM]"? that invalidated most of your complaints right there! Marth is different, I said this before, but if you're not good enough to adapt, you should not be justified in complaining.

also, I main Ike and Charizard in PM, and I can use Marth and Roy competently. sure, my reaction time takes a hit... but I'm still capable of holding my own. "No Johns", for the second time.

All I said was that I don't care about smash 4 anymore. So obviously I'm bad...?

Is there an issue with nor being good at a game I don't play anymore? Why are you faulting me for that.

Also, what am I adapting to? There's not really any difference in playstyle because he wasn't given any new real options. It's not like meta Knight from brawl to smash 4 where he had some options removed but some new one given to him. He was nerfed all across the board without compensation. I pretty much have to play him like brawl Marth but he just does less damage, has more lag on moves, and has essential range. What am I adapting to? If ike suddenly had all of the damage reduced on his moves by 2%, had 4 frames of lag added onto everything, and made his sword shorter, still being good with him would be adapting...? Not really

 

[Munomario777]

All I said was that I don't care about smash 4 anymore. So obviously I'm bad...?

"I'm bad at Smash 4"
It would appear so.

Is there an issue with nor being good at a game I don't play anymore? Why are you faulting me for that.

We're faulting you for complaining about something being hard when you're not even good at the game yet. Don't talk about things you don't have a right to discuss.

Also, what am I adapting to? There's not really any difference in playstyle because he wasn't given any new real options. It's not like meta Knight from brawl to smash 4 where he had some options removed but some new one given to him. He was nerfed all across the board without compensation. I pretty much have to play him like brawl Marth but he just does less damage, has more lag on moves, and has essential range. What am I adapting to? If ike suddenly had all of the damage reduced on his moves by 2%, had 4 frames of lag added onto everything, and made his sword shorter, still being good with him would be adapting...? Not really

Either adapt to the new Marth, or adapt to a different character.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I'm having a blast reading all these comments by scrublords who are bad at the game.

 

[Link24a]

"I'm bad at Smash 4"
It would appear so.

We're faulting you for complaining about something being hard when you're not even good at the game yet. Don't talk about things you don't have a right to discuss.

Either adapt to the new Marth, or adapt to a different character.

I didn't mean hard. I don't think I've said that since yesterday. From what I've observed at a top level (not from myself as that's unreliable) edge guarding is low risk low reward. In smash 4 that is a fact. You either have to hit them a bunch of times (like how false demonstrated in the video when he was marth) to get a kill or hit them at kill percent or almost that (like in evo losers finals that I linked). Your risk of getting killed offstage when attempting an edge guard is also very low as your recovery is really good too

Why do I need to explain this? There's video evidence right in front of you and the ruleset being 2 stocks is pretty notable evidence too.

Once again, I just asked how it would even be possible to adapt to Marth with my hypothetical situation with ike. You didn't answer, just saying "adapt to it"

 

[Link24a]

I'm having a blast reading all these comments by scrublords who are bad at the game.

My skill is irrelevant. Look at tournament videos. Look at the video this thread is about. Look at the ruleset.

That is all

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

that's your reason for spouting this sudden "I suck at Smash 4" nonsense, because you're "too busy playing [64, Melee, Brawl, and PM]"? that invalidated most of your complaints right there! Marth is different, I said this before, but if you're not good enough to adapt, you should not be justified in complaining.

also, I main Ike and Charizard in PM, and I can use Marth and Roy competently. sure, my reaction time takes a hit... but I'm still capable of holding my own. "No Johns", for the second time.



yes, it's obvious that Ganon is going for a meteor, the Doc was likely too focused on getting back on stage to realize it in time, I also noticed the Doc was DIing toward the Stage, hoping to tech off it before losing. I also noticed that was a For Glory video... edgeguarding still exists, it's just not as easy as snatching the edge first and smirking at the stock you took.

also, I wasn't trolling, I just used that face because I didn't think anyone would take me seriously... and I thought the way I worded that was amusing.

I take everyone seriously at first, until there is nothing to take caution of. I have yet to be wrong about Smash-4 and my statement about Edge guarding still stands up. "Snap back?"

If the opponent gets off the the edge of the stage, then it's not an Edge guard at all, it's simply a kill not an edge guard as you would think for it to be.

Understand this - Nintendo disabled Edge guarding (there is a reason why the characters automatically get off the Edge once the other character is going to recover, and catch the Edge by force without the other person's choosing pretty much like life really). Thanks.

 

[Link24a]

I take everyone seriously at first, until there is nothing to take caution of. I have yet to be wrong about Smash-4 and my statement about Edge guarding still stands up. "Snap back?"

If the opponent gets off the the edge of the stage, then it's not an Edge guard at all, it's simply a kill not an edge guard as you would think for it to be.

Understand this - Nintendo disabled Edge guarding (there is a reason why the characters automatically get off the Edge once the other character is going to recover, and catch the Edge by force without the other person's choosing pretty much like life really). Thanks.

I actually have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

 

[N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣]

I actually have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

Edge guards don't exist simple as that.

 

[Link24a]

Edge guards don't exist simple as that.

They... Do

A little Mac side b's to the stage and then you jump offstage to fair him. There. Edgeguard

 

[Munomario777]

I didn't mean hard. I don't think I've said that since yesterday. From what I've observed at a top level (not from myself as that's unreliable) edge guarding is low risk low reward. In smash 4 that is a fact. You either have to hit them a bunch of times (like how false demonstrated in the video when he was marth) to get a kill or hit them at kill percent or almost that (like in evo losers finals that I linked). Your risk of getting killed offstage when attempting an edge guard is also very low as your recovery is really good too

If you're not good at the game, then the game isn't the reason that your edgeguards don't have a good payoff.

Why do I need to explain this? There's video evidence right in front of you and the ruleset being 2 stocks is pretty notable evidence too.

I don't see evidence that edgeguarding isn't a potent way to end stocks, rack up damage, et cetera.

Once again, I just asked how it would even be possible to adapt to Marth with my hypothetical situation with ike. You didn't answer, just saying "adapt to it"

Just don't use the things that don't work in Smash 4, and do use the ones that do. I don't know why I need to explain this to you.

I take everyone seriously at first, until there is nothing to take caution of. I have yet to be wrong about Smash-4 and my statement about Edge guarding still stands up. "Snap back?"

"Smash 4 has no edgeguarding."

That statement is false, as edgeguarding has been demonstrated in numerous matches, a few of which have been shown in this very thread.

If the opponent gets off the the edge of the stage, then it's not an Edge guard at all, it's simply a kill not an edge guard as you would think for it to be.

What do you mean, "if the opponent gets off the edge of the stage"? If you mean they get knocked offstage, then that is where the edgeguard begins. You're guarding the edge, ergo, not allowing them to get back onto it.

Understand this - Nintendo disabled Edge guarding (there is a reason why the characters automatically get off the Edge once the other character is going to recover, and catch the Edge by force without the other person's choosing pretty much like life really). Thanks.

As I said earlier in the thread:

Edge hogging =/= edgeguarding.

 

[Link24a]

If you're not good at the game, then the game isn't the reason that your edgeguards don't have a good payoff.

I don't see evidence that edgeguarding isn't a potent way to end stocks, rack up damage, et cetera.

Just don't use the things that don't work in Smash 4, and do use the ones that do. I don't know why I need to explain this to you.

"Smash 4 has no edgeguarding."

That statement is false, as edgeguarding has been demonstrated in numerous matches, a few of which have been shown in this very thread.

What do you mean, "if the opponent gets off the edge of the stage"? If you mean they get knocked offstage, then that is where the edgeguard begins. You're guarding the edge, ergo, not allowing them to get back onto it.

As I said earlier in the thread:

This has nothing to do with me playing anymore. This is the game as a spectator.

Watch evo losers finals. Barely any edge guards. Too much damage needs to already be built up meaning it's NOT A HIGH REWARD

It's low risk low reward. Seriously. Give me evidence to counter that. Don't cite that I'm bad because this has nothing to do with my experiences. Tournaments

The things that work and don't work in smash 4 are like 90% the same except the things that do work are worse

Tell me how to adapt to something just flat out worse. They made his counter and shield breaker better but those are pretty punishable so why should I start using those more? Yeah I'll use them more than in other games but I shouldn't be using them all the time. Seriously, what am I supposed to do? It's like my ike analogy.

 

[Munomario777]

This has nothing to do with me playing anymore. This is the game as a spectator.

Watch evo losers finals. Barely any edge guards. Too much damage needs to already be built up meaning it's NOT A HIGH REWARD

Does the edgeguard result in a KO? If so, I'd say that's a pretty high reward.

Note that edgeguarding isn't only a success if you actually KO them, by the by. Tacked on % or even an advantage such as stage control can pay off immensely in the long run.

It's low risk low reward. Seriously. Give me evidence to counter that. Don't cite that I'm bad because this has nothing to do with my experiences. Tournaments

First, you give me evidence to support that.

The things that work and don't work in smash 4 are like 90% the same except the things that do work are worse

Tell me how to adapt to something just flat out worse. They made his counter and shield breaker better but those are pretty punishable so why should I start using those more? Yeah I'll use them more than in other games but I shouldn't be using them all the time. Seriously, what am I supposed to do? It's like my ike analogy.

Either keep playing Marth, play a different character, or play a different game.

 

[Link24a]

First, you give me evidence to support that.

Either keep playing Marth, play a different character, or play a different game.

Evo losers finals and the video that this thread is about as I've cited like 3 times each to show low reward, everyone's recovery in general to show low risk, and the 2 stock ruleset to show the both going together.

Exactly. You don't adapt to that.

 

[Munomario777]

Evo losers finals and the video that this thread is about as I've cited like 3 times each to show low reward, everyone's recovery in general to show low risk, and the 2 stock ruleset to show the both going together.

"These players didn't edgeguard much in this one set! Edgeguarding has no reward!"

That's not solid evidence.

Exactly. You don't adapt to that.

I just told you how to adapt to the nerfs that Marth received. Keep playing Marth, play a different character, or play a different game.

 

[Link24a]

"These players didn't edgeguard much in this one set! Edgeguarding has no reward!"

That's not solid evidence.

I just told you how to adapt to the nerfs that Marth received. Keep playing Marth, play a different character, or play a different game.

I mean when they did edge guard. Not when they didn't.
Also this video is very solid evidence

Keep playing just means get good/be more experienced. That's not adaptation at all. That's perseverance. Do you know what adaptation is? I already told you I tried a different character, but that would be adaptation maybe. Playing a different game isn't adaptation at all. It's just giving up entirely and doing something different.

What you're recommending isn't even adaptation

 

[Munomario777]

I mean when they did edge guard. Not when they didn't.
Also this video is very solid evidence

"Only 3 stocks were taken offstage in these 5 games."
If three whole stocks were taken due to edgeguarding, that sounds like a decent reward to me.

Keep playing just means get good/be more experienced. That's not adaptation at all. That's perseverance. Do you know what adaptation is? I already told you I tried a different character, but that would be adaptation maybe. Playing a different game isn't adaptation at all. It's just giving up entirely and doing something different.

What you're recommending isn't even adaptation

Yes, I do know what adaptation is. Adaptation is changing what one's behavior, actions, perhaps physical features -- although obviously not in this instance -- et cetera, to fit a certain situation. Here, the situation is that Marth got nerfed, so you don't enjoy playing as him. You could either experiment with other characters to see if you like one of them, and if you don't, you could simply play a different game. Here's an example of a different type of adaptation. A bird lives in a tropical area, say Hawaii. For whatever reason, the tropical area suddenly becomes a frozen wasteland. The bird can either grow thicker feathers or something to adapt to a colder climate (switching to a different character), or fly to a different area (playing a different game) in order to achieve its goal of survival (having fun playing Smash Brothers). It'd be pretty hard to fly to a new climate from Hawaii, granted, but you get the gist of it.

 

[Link24a]

"Only 3 stocks were taken offstage in these 5 games."
If three whole stocks were taken due to edgeguarding, that sounds like a decent reward to me.

Yes, I do know what adaptation is. Adaptation is changing what one's behavior, actions, perhaps physical features -- although obviously not in this instance -- et cetera, to fit a certain situation. Here, the situation is that Marth got nerfed, so you don't enjoy playing as him. You could either experiment with other characters to see if you like one of them, and if you don't, you could simply play a different game. Here's an example of a different type of adaptation. A bird lives in a tropical area, say Hawaii. For whatever reason, the tropical area suddenly becomes a frozen wasteland. The bird can either grow thicker feathers or something to adapt to a colder climate (switching to a different character), or fly to a different area (playing a different game) in order to achieve its goal of survival (having fun playing Smash Brothers). It'd be pretty hard to fly to a new climate from Hawaii, granted, but you get the gist of it.

One of the stocks taken was an accident and again THEY WERE TAKEN AT KILL PERCENT. THATS WHAT I'M SAYING

If they need to be taken at kill percent, that's not high reward. Also, you're ignoring the video of this thread where false had to hit the guy a bunch of times in order to get a kill because it wasn't kill percent

You started saying to adapt to Marth by playing him differently, now you realize that that's not possible because I explained in the same way like 3 times. Now you're telling me to deal with it in a way I already have


Can we stop talking about Marth now?

 

[Munomario777]

One of the stocks taken was an accident and again THEY WERE TAKEN AT KILL PERCENT. THATS WHAT I'M SAYING

If they need to be taken at kill percent, that's not high reward. Also, you're ignoring the video of this thread where false had to hit the guy a bunch of times in order to get a kill because it wasn't kill percent

So, if getting a kill at kill percent isn't high reward, then I suppose landing a forward smash with Mario and winning a match -- in a last stock situation, of course -- isn't high reward? A kill is a kill, and percent is irrelevant to the value of a kill.

Also, you're still ignoring the added percentage and other advantages that edgeguarding often provides.

You started saying to adapt to Marth by playing him differently, now you realize that that's not possible because I explained in the same way like 3 times. Now you're telling me to deal with it in a way I already have

If you've already adapted, then why are you asking me how to adapt?

Can we stop talking about Marth now?

Sure.

 

[Link24a]

So, if getting a kill at kill percent isn't high reward, then I suppose landing a forward smash with Mario and winning a match -- in a last stock situation, of course -- isn't high reward? A kill is a kill, and percent is irrelevant to the value of a kill.

Also, you're still ignoring the added percentage and other advantages that edgeguarding often provides.

If you've already adapted, then why are you asking me how to adapt?

Sure.

It's not exactly high reward as its not anything better than just doing a forward smash. If you're adding a decent amount of percent, then yeah I guess that's OK. High reward to me is getting a kill as low as 50%. killing someone at kill percent is just meh.

Because you kept telling me to adapt to Marth being bad by using HIM differently, which I eventually convinced you was impossible. Anyways, done with Marth.

 

[Munomario777]

It's not exactly high reward as its not anything better than just doing a forward smash. If you're adding a decent amount of percent, then yeah I guess that's OK. High reward to me is getting a kill as low as 50%. killing someone at kill percent is just meh.

It might not be as high reward as other methods, but it's still a decent payoff nonetheless. A charged Bowser forward smash is obviously going to be more rewarding, but it's also far, far riskier.

Edgeguarding is pretty dang potent though. I've seen an edgeguard that started at 20~30% lead into a clean KO. (Ganon vs Alph in that video.)

 

[jmanup85]

Wait hold on you want high risk high reward edgeguarding? Watch that match and once again stop posting your nonsense that makes you look more and more uneducated on this game.

https://youtu.be/IvU5RQ-nJog?t=6m46s

 

[Link24a]

It might not be as high reward as other methods, but it's still a decent payoff nonetheless. A charged Bowser forward smash is obviously going to be more rewarding, but it's also far, far riskier.

Edgeguarding is pretty dang potent though. I've seen an edgeguard that started at 20~30% lead into a clean KO. (Ganon vs Alph in that video.)

Time code?

Wait hold on you want high risk high reward edgeguarding? Watch that match and once again stop posting your nonsense that makes you look more and more uneducated on this game.

https://youtu.be/IvU5RQ-nJog?t=6m46s

The only time Ganon risked his life was that dumb down air and the side b that for some reason worked. Which was like going offstage for a Falcon punch which is in every game

 

[Munomario777]

Time code?

20 seconds.

The only time Ganon risked his life was that dumb down air and the side b that for some reason worked. Which was like going offstage for a Falcon punch which is in every game

So, both of his edgeguards?

Not to mention that Pikachu's edgeguard.

 

[Phoenix502]

The only time Ganon risked his life was that dumb down air and the side b that for some reason worked. Which was like going offstage for a Falcon punch which is in every game

Flame Choke offstage is an all-or-nothing hard read if you're not grabbing the edge. And Ganon's Dair... dumb? you not give the impression of one of those "I don't play CHEEP so I'm better" kinds of people. you also failed to notice exactly how that Pikachu took Ganon's first stock, if you think you can do it just as easily, I want proof.

This has nothing to do with me playing anymore. This is the game as a spectator.

is that so?

They made his counter and shield breaker better but those are pretty punishable so why should I start using those more? Yeah I'll use them more than in other games but I shouldn't be using them all the time. Seriously, what am I supposed to do?

I've had enough of hopeless cases.

this phrase I do NOT like having to say at all... but seriously: Git gud, amateur!