Smash on an Arcade Stick

[toodles]

I'm working on a project called the Universal PCB. You can read about it here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?p=3898091#post3898091

I've got a number of systems supported, and next on the list is Gamecube, which I think I am close to completing. What I'd like is some input from Smash players. Along with how you'd expect a Gamecube arcade stick to play (like the D-Pad), I'd also like to put in a mode that makes it truly playable for Smash. I believe I have a way to do that planned out, so please take a look over and see if there's any part of playing I missed. I've played, but I wouldn't even call myself a casual Smash player.

"But Smash is all Analog" Yes, I know. But since I control the information being sent to the Gamecube/Wii, I can tell it the analog stick is moving as well.
"Arcade Sticks would suck for Smash" Maybe so, but I'm still gonna give it a shot. Unconstructive criticism is unwelcome.

The idea is this: One arcade stick, and four required buttons. The stick by itself would be reported to the GC/Wii as the analog stick at half way. This should let me move without running. Add in the obvious A and B buttons and a button for shield. Lastly, add in a 'Run' button. When the run button is pressed, the stick will be reported as the analog stick all the way in that direction.

As far as I can tell, this would cover everything: normal attacks, B attacks, running attacks, and even the combination moves::
Smash: Direction+Run+A
Throw: Direction+Shield+A
Dodge:Direction+Run+Shield

I'll be putting in an option button for Jump, and perhaps making the Select button on the stick do the D-Pad taunt.

So, are there any moves or situations in Smash that this setup wouldn't cover? THanks for reading.

Oops. Maybe this shoulda been in Smash Discussion. My bad, feel free to move.

 

[Blazey]

You really need a jump button for shorthopping and wavedashing. Honestly, who walks in Smash? xD

 

[toodles]

You really need a jump button for shorthopping and wavedashing.

I'll definitely be putting it in then. Those who dont want it can disable it with the programming button. Good to know, thanks.

Honestly, who walks in Smash? xD

I'm not a Smash expert by any means, but I want all possible moves available on a stick,and that should include walking.

My main reasoning for wanting a Run style button instead of always assuming a run was to make sure you had there was a way to differentiate between a towards+A attacks (left+A), a towards smash(left+A+run), and a running A. (left+run, A)

 

[_kSo_]

I highly doubt this would work. for one, playing smash on a pad is how people get the speed in that is required. adding a function on the stick specifically designated for run and another for jump would disrupt pretty much any smashers game. Smash is a twitch fighter, requiring all subtle movements and nuances to be read by the game. things like sensitivity of the analog and the x/y buttons for sh'ing would all be changed to the input of a button.

it is completely different to use stick for a game such as smash than using a stick for a game like street fighter. street fighter is about strategy and maneuvering according to that strategy. inputing commands for attacks requires a certain timing, that which is much slower than smash. smash is based much on reaction time while 2d fighters such as street fighter are more based on attack placement and [a much slower] timing

 

[pdk]

seems to me like you'd be a lot better off with run as the default and turning the run button into a walk button

 

[NJzFinest]

Kso4351 ftw!

 

[BigRick]

I tried it once with my universal stick...

it sucks lol

 

[Silent_Jester]

I highly doubt this would work. for one, playing smash on a pad is how people get the speed in that is required. adding a function on the stick specifically designated for run and another for jump would disrupt pretty much any smashers game. Smash is a twitch fighter, requiring all subtle movements and nuances to be read by the game. things like sensitivity of the analog and the x/y buttons for sh'ing would all be changed to the input of a button.

it is completely different to use stick for a game such as smash than using a stick for a game like street fighter. street fighter is about strategy and maneuvering according to that strategy. inputing commands for attacks requires a certain timing, that which is much slower than smash. smash is based much on reaction time while 2d fighters such as street fighter are more based on attack placement and [a much slower] timing

COMPLETE AND EPIC TRUTH

 

[toodles]

snip

Your post contains absolutely zero useful information. A gamepad may ultimately prove to be better. The capability of controlling the angle and speed of the analog stick is something I can only imitate. The plan so far has only 17 different positions the stick would be reported as, versus the 256^2 positions the gamecube can see an analog stick. (huh, I just realized, the Gamecube sticks have higher resolution that Wii Classic Controller sticks. Interesting....) The question is, can you point out a move or setup that I can't replicate with the setup as I described? I'm not here to debate between games; I'm here because I like Smash and need input. Posting how Smash is awesome and how awesome you are for liking Smash is just mental masturbation. Please, point out where this won't work. Tell me of some rare character specific setup that requires control over the analog stick I can't duplicate with the plan above. Prove me wrong.

And really, if you can't, and you're only response is 'Bah Smash requires precise control, you'll see for yourself, I'm not gonna tell you any', then don't bother. Any belief without fact are pointless and just makes you look silly.

seems to me like you'd be a lot better off with run as the default and turning the run button into a walk button

Really? I'm certainly open to the idea, but it would seem to make more sense for a normal attack to be just one button, and a smash attack to be two buttons. If you were trying to do a forward+A attack from a standstill, you'd have to press left+A+walk. Because there's always a chance you won't press all three at the exact same frame, you could end up pressing Left+A, then Walk, which I think would give you a smash attack.

I tried it once with my universal stick...

it sucks lol

That's 'cuz you didn't have me programming the stick As far as I know, no one has tried to make a stick that included the different analog movements I have planned.

 

[_kSo_]

Your post contains absolutely zero useful information..

?

really...

my bad

 

[petre]

i actually saw lots of useful information in there.

 

[toodles]

i actually saw lots of useful information in there.

So, are there any moves or situations in Smash that this setup wouldn't cover?

The question is, can you point out a move or setup that I can't replicate with the setup as I described?.

Really? I see an opinion that a stick would completely mess up a player use to the pad, which I completely agree with, followed by a minor SF vs Smash comparison, which I don't care about. I do not see a single description of a move, setup, or combination that can't be done with the setup described. "Stick would suck because Smash is a twitch game" is non-sequitor.

Guys, I'm trying to make Smash more available. Having a playable stick for Smash would do absolutely nothing to take away from the game. Those of you that have been playing on the pad for forever would have it no different. But what it would do is make the game more accessible for those who don't like playing fighters on pads, like myself and I think many others. More competition, more players, and a bigger Smash community. I don't think that's something anybody could possibly be against.

In order to do that, I need FACTS, not opinions. I know using a stick if you're used to a pad would completely destroy anyone's game. This isn't for those people. Even if it seems more difficult to do, I just want to make there is nothing that CAN'T be done with this setup. That's what I'm looking for, and no one has stepped up.

Luckily, I have found some information on things I'd need to add or address. Shield strength being a pretty important one, but it seems you also can't crouch or fast fall without the stick being all the way down. This is the kind of information I need; facts, not opinions.

 

[TheFifthMan]

What about C-stick attacks? I know that some techs aren't possible (or at least very hard to do) without the C-stick.

 

[snoblo]

Hey toodles I like your idea! though it may be difficult to do some advanced techs, it is definitely playable with those buttons! Good luck! =D

 

[MVPaintballer]

2 Joysticks would make it look like mech commander, no c-stick on the the pad!

 

[toodles]

What about C-stick attacks?

The only C-Stick attacks I know of are Smashes. Are there any attacks with the C-stick that aren't smashes?

I know that some techs aren't possible (or at least very hard to do) without the C-stick.

Can you give me an example, preferably of one that would be impossible with the setup I described? I can deal with difficult, I just dont want anything impossible.

Hey toodles I like your idea! though it may be difficult to do some advanced techs, it is definitely playable with those buttons! Good luck! =D

THanks for the kind words. I've read from a similar post on SRK that it's possible to Z-cancel a move, get hit, and tech earlier with L than it would be to L-cancel a move, get hit, and tech with L; some anti-trigger-spaz code from what I gather. Can you give any more information about this?

2 Joysticks would make it look like mech commander, no c-stick on the the pad!

One of us is misunderstanding the other. There are no plans for 2 joysticks on my end, and I'm pretty sure there is a c-stick on the gamecube pad.

 

[TheFifthMan]

C-stick smashes and aerials are pretty important (at least to me); it makes wavedashes into smashes and crouch-cancels into smashes easier. Also, try doing a backward float with Peach into an Fair (taken from AlphaZealot's glossary), or a ledgehop spike with Marth.

 

[Got Blood?]

I only c stick for smashes.I like performing ariel hits with the ol A button.

 

[Wonsang]

Hey, Toodles, I thought your idea was bogus until I read your post on SRK and realized that your stick is going to be meant for greater feats than just Smash. As someone who plays mostly 2D fighters on stick, I just want to tell you to not let any of these negative posts get to you and MAKE THIS STICK.

 

[Matt]

Yeah, I think I'll move this.

Sounds like a neat idea to me. I mean, for casual players, having 3 buttons for techs isn't so important, and ease of wavedash isn't an issue, and perhaps being able to attack in the air one direction while falling another (C-Sticking) isn't so important, but is arguably an issue worth considering with a single analog setup. Hmm. As far as I can tell, that last issue aside, everything else sounds doable.

This coming from a mostly casual player.

 

[toodles]

C-stick smashes and aerials are pretty important (at least to me); it makes wavedashes into smashes and crouch-cancels into smashes easier.

Is there anything that would impossible? I can deal with difficult, but I want everything to be POSSIBLE. I fully recognize that some of the things that would require good timing but easy motions may end up requiring extreme timing and difficult motions on the planned stick.

Also, try doing a backward float with Peach into an Fair (taken from AlphaZealot's glossary), or a ledgehop spike with Marth.

I'm not familiar with any term there past Peach Can you describe how these are done using a normal gamecube controller, or link somewhere with a description or video so I can see it?

I think KSO makes a good suggestion.

There was not a single suggestion there, just opinion.

*snip*
Basically I'm just saying why 2D fighters need sticks and why smash players don't.

You know, I was going to point out how most of that post was opinion, but you just said it in the most beautiful way in that line. You are right. 100% completely and totally right., if you just add in the word 'current'.

Current 2D fighters (players) need sticks and Current smash players don't.

The thing is, I'm trying to help bring those two groups together. Current Smash players will not be affected by something like this in the least. They don't have to learn anything new, and really, 99.999% of the people they face will continue to play on a pad. What it would do is make the game more accessible, and bring in more competition, drawn from a pool of people who understand the subtleties of fighting games more than your standard 13 year old 'I'm the best in the world because no one on my block can beat me.' players.

I'm not trying to sell the existing Smash community on the idea directly; by all means, continue to use what you're using. But how can so many people in the Smash community be against something that doesn't take away from the game, and brings more, and better, competition into the game?

I want facts, not opinions. Until someone answers that question, I'll be ignoring any more 'Its a bad idea' opinion posts, including the rest of yours.

 

[toodles]

Yeah, I think I'll move this.

Sounds like a neat idea to me. I mean, for casual players, having 3 buttons for techs isn't so important, and ease of wavedash isn't an issue, and perhaps being able to attack in the air one direction while falling another (C-Sticking) isn't so important, but is arguably an issue worth considering with a single analog setup. Hmm. As far as I can tell, that last issue aside, everything else sounds doable.

This coming from a mostly casual player.

So using the C-stick, you can attack a direction while the stick is needed in another? I'm thinking of Zelda's float for some reason. That's good to know, and why I asked for clarification on the C-stick mentioned earlier. While I don't think it would be a deal breaker, I don't see how I could easily get around that with my stick. Thanks, I'll look into that now.

EDIT: I just tested, and when in the air, I can't the C-Stick to do anything. Tried with Peach and Zelda and Sheik. Is there some trick to this?

 

[ArcNatural]

Ok the c-stick is the yellow one in case you don't know. Basically if you jump in the air and hit the c-stick left,right,up or down you will do the specific aerial according to which way your character is facing. This is very usefull when say your Marth and your sheilding and the character is right in front of you. One of your options could be to jump out of shield and fair (Marth's forward aerial). In most cases if you try this you will end up moving towards them and fairing. However, with the c-stick you can jump and hold backwards on the analog (stick that moves your character) and hit forward on the c-stick. Enabling you to safely move away from your opponent while using the fair as a defensive move.

Other things you may need to consider:

Jumping out of shield. I'm not sure how your programming this, but make sure that jumping overrides the shield button. The only character I know that can't jump out of shield is Yoshi.

Your controls for doing smashes and such are interesting, If your standing still and hit the run button without any directional influence will the character not move? Make sure Uptilts, dtilts, upsmashes and downsmashes work.

JC moves. Again I'm just pointing out possible debugging issues, several moves can be jump cancelled if your on the ground. This essentially means if you press up or jump and quickly follow it up with a button sequence (ex: running JC upsmash with Fox, or jumping and immediately hitting down and B) you will cancel the jump and perform the move. Most noticable with fox and falco since they can jump cancel shines. And many characters JC grab.

Teching and L-canceling. I'm not sure how you plan to implement this as it can be a pressure sensitive issue. You can l-cancel without pressing the L or R button all the way down (i.e. you don't need to click the button down) but you can. However, you do need to have it click in order to air dodge or tech off the ground. This can be very important as if you click the button all the way in you now have to wait 20 frames before you can tech if the tech was unsuccessful.

I think everything else is ok, although I'm sure I missed some issues.

 

[toodles]

Ok the c-stick is the yellow one in case you don't know.

Heh, ya I knew that. After your post I went to doublecheck to see if I could figure out why it wasnt working for me. Did you know that the C-stick doesn't do anything in single player mode, only in versus? Weird.

Basically if you jump in the air and hit the c-stick left,right,up or down you will do the specific aerial according to which way your character is facing. This is very usefull when say your Marth and your sheilding and the character is right in front of you. One of your options could be to jump out of shield and fair (Marth's forward aerial). In most cases if you try this you will end up moving towards them and fairing. However, with the c-stick you can jump and hold backwards on the analog (stick that moves your character) and hit forward on the c-stick. Enabling you to safely move away from your opponent while using the fair as a defensive move.

Great explanation, thank you. When I get this going, I'll make certain to see if I can do it on the stick. I know it can be done, the question is whether or not it can be done with the same or similar speed that using the C stick allows. Much appreciated.

Other things you may need to consider:

Jumping out of shield. I'm not sure how your programming this, but make sure that jumping overrides the shield button. The only character I know that can't jump out of shield is Yoshi.

I just tried with the pad using Link, and with shield held down, he can jump out of it with either the analog stick or the buttons. There's no reason the same wouldn't hold true with the stick.

Your controls for doing smashes and such are interesting, If your standing still and hit the run button without any directional influence will the character not move?

Correct. The' run' button wouldn't be seen by the console at all. All it does is tell the PCB in the stick to report stick directions as 100% analog directions instead of 50% (ish).

Make sure Uptilts, dtilts, upsmashes and downsmashes work.

I don't really understand what the tilts are. The up and down smashes would work by hitting the direction, run, and A at the same time; at least in theory.

JC moves. Again I'm just pointing out possible debugging issues, several moves can be jump cancelled if your on the ground. This essentially means if you press up or jump and quickly follow it up with a button sequence (ex: running JC upsmash with Fox, or jumping and immediately hitting down and B) you will cancel the jump and perform the move. Most noticable with fox and falco since they can jump cancel shines. And many characters JC grab.

I will keep those in mind and test as soon as I get it coded, thanks.

Teching and L-canceling. I'm not sure how you plan to implement this as it can be a pressure sensitive issue. You can l-cancel without pressing the L or R button all the way down (i.e. you don't need to click the button down) but you can. However, you do need to have it click in order to air dodge or tech off the ground. This can be very important as if you click the button all the way in you now have to wait 20 frames before you can tech if the tech was unsuccessful.

Ah, that is VERY good to know. In my scrubby play, I'm not seeing any difference between shields when the trigger is lightly pressed compared to when the trigger is pressed hard but NOT to clicking (difference between click and no click is pretty obvious, at least visually). Can you think of any problems if the shield button by itself did a set 'halfway' trigger pull, and shield + run did a full clicky pull?

And is it just me, or do the C-stick smashes seem to come out a little faster that even the lightest of smashes done with the A button?

 

[NG7]

The c-stick doesn't work in 1-P mode.

Is that what you're playing?

 

[Justin Wiles]

No offense, but I think you (toodles) need to sit down and read about advances techniques and at least play Smash Bros. Melee a bit more before you attempt this. There's alot of really basic stuff that's going over your head, and you're going to save alot of time reading up on it yourself instead of asking us. You'll also be more likely to do it right the first time.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

It doesn't seem possible to me to be able to implement Csticked aerials on an arcade stick. You either need a second stick or separate buttons for F/U/D/B aerials. And yes, Csticking aerials is ESSENTIAL to advanced gameplay.

Cstick smashes come out faster because they are uncharged, so they come out as fast as is possible, although you CAN charge Cstick smashes with Z.

If you want to know everything you can do with the Cstick, read this thread:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=81177

I understand that you can deal with "difficult" as opposed to outright "impossible" in your implementation, so not all of these may apply. I think in principle the only things that are IMPOSSIBLE without a Cstick are Csticked aerials, and pivoted U/D smashes (although depending on how run/walk is implemented, these may be possible). Everything else (CC dsmashes, uncharged smashes, DI and ASDI in different directions, etc) would just be exceedingly difficult timing wise. CC dsmashes may be impossible to do frame-perfectly without the Cstick, not sure.

Tilts are just holding a direction (while on the ground and not running) and pressing A to attack.

Analog shielding is important too, as Arcnatural mentioned. You can also move the shield around slightly with the joystick, so your arcade stick system would need to be able to distinguish moving the shield from hitting it to dodge/roll/jump. And to correct Arcnatural, you must actually wait 40 frames after an unsuccessful L/R button press to tech again. 20 frames is the initial tech window.

 

[Engo]

Shield+A for Grab? I'm way too used to simple pressing Z,unless it's a shield grab.

And to Dodge it's Direction+Run+Shield?I don't understand, woudn't it just be shield +down to spot dodge?

Anyways,it's not a bad idea, and if you really want to do it go for it, maybe it will turn out good who knows.

 

[_kSo_]

Don't forget about jump canceled grab and the tilts!

also in response to TheFifthMan about marth's ledge hop spike

@ toodles - that is the same as the tilt thing. u said you'll have a button designated for walking/running? well either or, are we going to have to press Direction + walk + attack? so for marth's ledge hop spike would it be

back -> up -> walk + down + A?

 

[Cactuar]

Just a bit of insight. This kind of setup would be illegal in tournament smash play. The gamecube controller design actually inhibits our finger speed. A joystick setup would make something like multiple JC shines very easy as you would have the ability to just use two fingers and alternate tapping two buttons and not rely on just your thumb. You could make the argument that a player would be able to do a similar thing on the gamecube controller using claw method, but that wouldn't be conventionally possible without disrupting your play fluidity to switch hand positions into claw or something similar.

Using a custom configuration as far as button placement would give a player a severe advantage as far as possible technical ability goes, given practice with his desired placements.

 

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

Hah, i don't think it will be taken that seriously, he just wants to try it out

 

[slikvik]

This doesn't seem like a terrible idea, but it just seems like no matter what, an arcade stick simply will not be as effective as the gamecube controller. However, if you are motivated, I suggest enlisting the help of one of the more knowledgeable players on this forum.

 

[Cactuar]

Hah, i don't think it will be taken that seriously, he just wants to try it out

He's creating a serious alternative control method. If I were spending the time thinking and working on something like this, I would want to know where I would get with it realistically.

@toodles: Talk to me on aim if possible. WSFLCactuar

 

[slikvik]

^^^one of the more knowledgeable players on this forum. you found one

 

[boss8]

i think it would break what if someone tries to moonwalk,or how bout silentwolf so technical he might break it but it's a good idea.

 

[FOB]

I don't know. It sounds like a pretty good idea to me. That is if you can get all the button sensitivity and all that jazz to work properly. A large stream of smashers come from other fighters like Guilty Gear, Street Fighter, and a lot of other games that require gaming pads. It would certainly help all of those smashers and open up some new possibilities.

 

[toodles]

Ack, sleep for a bit and the thread 'splodes.

The c-stick doesn't work in 1-P mode.
Is that what you're playing?

Yup, that was exactly my problem.

No offense, but I think you (toodles) need to sit down and read about advances techniques and at least play Smash Bros. Melee a bit more before you attempt this. There's alot of really basic stuff that's going over your head, and you're going to save alot of time reading up on it yourself instead of asking us. You'll also be more likely to do it right the first time.

I'll certainly agree that I'm a Smash scrub, but my goal right now isn't to get better at Smash, it's to work on my UPCB. I will however try to spend more time looking up information on the techniques y'all mention instead of repeatedly asking "What's that?"

It doesn't seem possible to me to be able to implement Csticked aerials on an arcade stick. You either need a second stick or separate buttons for F/U/D/B aerials. And yes, Csticking aerials is ESSENTIAL to advanced gameplay.

For the exact reasons you mention, Csticking aerials may end up impossible on the stick. I will put some thought into though.

Cstick smashes come out faster because they are uncharged, so they come out as fast as is possible, although you CAN charge Cstick smashes with Z.

This information seems to contradict what's in the "Wavedashing, L-cancelling, All The Terms!" thread. It certainly LOOKS faster, but I'm open to the idea of being wrong.

I understand that you can deal with "difficult" as opposed to outright "impossible" in your implementation, so not all of these may apply. I think in principle the only things that are IMPOSSIBLE without a Cstick are Csticked aerials, and pivoted U/D smashes (although depending on how run/walk is implemented, these may be possible). Everything else (CC dsmashes, uncharged smashes, DI and ASDI in different directions, etc) would just be exceedingly difficult timing wise. CC dsmashes may be impossible to do frame-perfectly without the Cstick, not sure.

I will read up on these techniques, thank you.

Tilts are just holding a direction (while on the ground and not running) and pressing A to attack.

So just normal attacks? Couldn't this be done my pressing the direction + A? If the run button's not held, it should be a normal attack and not a smash.

Analog shielding is important too, as Arcnatural mentioned. You can also move the shield around slightly with the joystick, so your arcade stick system would need to be able to distinguish moving the shield from hitting it to dodge/roll/jump. And to correct Arcnatural, you must actually wait 40 frames after an unsuccessful L/R button press to tech again. 20 frames is the initial tech window.

Huh, I didnt know it could be moved, but I just did a little playing, and it seems like the 50% move (no run button) would move the bubble without going into a dodge roll or jump.
One thing that hasn't been clear to me is about the shielding. I know there are some pretty big difference between the a light shield and a full trigger pulled with click shield. What hasn't been made clear is whether there is a difference between a slight trigger pull shield, and a harder trigger pull shield, BOTH of with have no click? (Got thats an awefull sentence.) If the click happens when you pull the trigger 75%, is there any difference between a shield when the trigger is pulled 25% and when its pulled 50%?

Shield+A for Grab? I'm way too used to simple pressing Z,unless it's a shield grab.

And to Dodge it's Direction+Run+Shield?I don't understand, woudn't it just be shield +down to spot dodge?

Yes on the grab, yes on the dodge, but shield+down+run for spot dodge.

Just a bit of insight. This kind of setup would be illegal in tournament smash play. The gamecube controller design actually inhibits our finger speed. A joystick setup would make something like multiple JC shines very easy as you would have the ability to just use two fingers and alternate tapping two buttons and not rely on just your thumb. You could make the argument that a player would be able to do a similar thing on the gamecube controller using claw method, but that wouldn't be conventionally possible without disrupting your play fluidity to switch hand positions into claw or something similar.

Using a custom configuration as far as button placement would give a player a severe advantage as far as possible technical ability goes, given practice with his desired placements.

Yeah, I realized that last night. It's definitely one of the philosophical differences our camps have. If someone shows up wanting to play Super Turbo on a pop'n'music controller, might as well freaking let him. We don't let them have the controller play FOR them, so turbo buttons and programmable sticks and pads are out, but if someone wants to play using a DDR mat, go to town. I'm not gonna argue the point of "what's fair". It just a severe difference between the SF community and the Smash community.

Oh well. Acceptance of a controller like this in the major tournaments may never happen, and I accept this. But I still think it's worth trying.

i think it would break what if someone tries to moonwalk,or how bout silentwolf so technical he might break it but it's a good idea.

I will look techniques up, thanks.

@toodles: Talk to me on aim if possible. WSFLCactuar

Will do.