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Smash History: Stock Counts In Smash

George Santayana said, “Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.” A current and common debate among those in the Smash 4 community is if the current standard of using two stocks should be changed to three. Some within this discussion may not know why specific stock counts were even chosen in the first place. In this Smash History we will take a look at The History Of Stock Counts In Smash and see how the community has dealt with stock counts in our history.

Smash 64

Don't know where to start? Go back to the beginning. Today for those who don't know, Smash 64 is generally ran with 5 stocks. The match shown above took place around 2002, only three years after the release of Smash 64 and used six.
Unsurprising as it was the first release for the series, the competitive scene for Smash 64 upon first release was not as organized as any title after. While some original 64 posts have been lost, it seems that at least by the 2006 to 2007 era that 5 stocks was a common standard.

The story does not end here however, as even among the Smash 64 community there have been debates over the merits of using 4 stocks instead of five. It was even discussed potentially for an Apex ruleset. The main concern of why the stock count should be reduced is the same as Smash 4: time. Unlike other Smash titles Smash 64 lacks a mode with both stocks AND time as a choice to use. As purely using a timer has been proven to be not competitive, this has created an issue of particularly long matches in Smash 64.

While admittedly on the stage Hyrule Castle, which is now banned at most major events, one game with SuPeRbOoMfAn vs Gerson took over 52 minutes. They still had more of the set to play out after. This is certainly an unusual occurrence but even other big matches, like the Apex 2012 Grand Finals, can take over 30 minutes to finish, more time than three games of Brawl and Melee going to time.

While it seems the community still wants a 5 stock ruleset overall, the Smash 64 does have something very unique to it that is also worth mentioning: Yolo Tournaments. These are one stock, best of one sets, with brackets randomly seeded and the character the player must use randomly chosen then locked for the entire tournament. Not to mention each stage is chosen at random. These are mostly done purely for fun or charitable reasons, but is worth noting as a unique event where one stock is used especially as we look into...

Melee

While people know Melee for using four stocks today, this was not the case in the beginning. Interestingly enough some of the earliest tournaments used 5 stocks. The catch? "It was 5 stock single-match; 2 out of 3 sets were rare during early tourneys." That quote comes from Chillendude's History of a Smasher, and the match shown above is the grand final set from the very tournament mentioned. This seems to have been prevalent into at least 2004 as Chillendude also went on to say "It was also 5 stock, which was normal for MD/VA tourneys in 2002-04." He also mentioned how 6 stocks was used to "make up for single elimination". As time when on however, 4 stock matches with best of three at a minimum became a standard. But yet again something creeper into the minds of competitors: time.

"As time was getting close to expiring, Wes manged to get Chu down to his last stock while he was over 100% on his last stock. He then camped out the rest of the 30 seconds or so with up+B’s on the fin, and the timer ran out. Good thing Chu had that 100%+ damage lead, right?

Nope. M3D’s rule was that in the event of stock ties, sudden death would be played out. This seems silly now, but his reasoning at the time was, “it would be lame if someone lost by like 2%.” So instead, Wes beat Chu in sudden death and despite being on his way to 3 stocking Wes, Chu lost."

No one today would think of playing out sudden death, but back in the day it was not as unusual. In theory playing without a timer shouldn’t be a problem, it’d be better to allow the best player to be found. The main issue here was practicality, tournaments need to be able to end before venues close so only running stocks had its issues. Yet again Melee shows that the time a tournament takes seemed to be a major factor in ruleset decisions as it is today. It's spiritual successor would go on to potentially experiment outside of four stocks.

Project M

Being the spiritual successor to Melee with similar mechanics and speed, many thought that four stocks was an easy and obvious standard to use at tournaments. Things changed at The Big House 4 where Project M was ran with three stocks at a major tournament. Yet again we see this was done because of time concerns. This pattern just keep creeping into discussions. Despite the event going very well, tournaments going into the future kept with a four stock standard over worrying n times as the community felt it was best for the game.

Brawl

Brawl quickly gained a notoriety for particularly long sets as the game grew competitively. Three stock tournaments could end on time so the time section was less of an issue for practicality in Brawl but more of an issue with the spectator. Watching longs games of Brawl was not enjoyable to all fans and many thought it, alongside many matches player with a single character (Meta Knight) could be an issues for Brawl's growth.

To combat this, one idea was to run one stock tournaments. With the reduced time for each match, seeing similar characters possibly wouldn't have been as bad, and may have opened up the tier lists for characters like Zero Suit Samus or Pokemon Trainer potentially. Some suggest doing best of 5 matches to combat the lack of stocks while others said that best of three where players just had three stocks and fought only on one stage would work. The grand finals match of Get On My Level, one of the first events to try this, is shown above. Top players and spectators also gave their comments on the event and the results were varied. Recently Brawl was also brought back for a special event at Xanadu which used 2 stocks and a reduced timer.

It seems however most strong Brawl tournament series like FLAOC as well as majors like Super Smash Con are likely to continue on the three stock standard despite time constraints as in general it is preferred by those still playing the game.

The Present: Smash 4

Yet again it seems the deciding factor for using 2 stocks in Smash 4 comes down to time as well as viewership concerns just as it was in Brawl. Tournament organizers have claimed that running three stock events would simply take too much extra time and thus two stock is chosen. After the tournament FC Return, famed TO Juggleguy personally said: "Never, ever run three stock Smash Wii U… ever. The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

This opinion is not shared by all however. At the recent tournament Texas Gaming Championships 5, the tournament had 240 entrants for singles, and 80 doubles teams with on site signups. Tournament organizer for the event Xyro gave his thoughts on a three stock ruleset taking more time.

"It is a common belief that that 3 stocks add substantial time to a tournament's overall length. This is incorrect. If a TO does his/her job of doing sign-ups on time, calling matches on time, ensuring friendlies are at a minimum (or eliminated) and refrains from deviating from the advertised schedule, the overall event will not last much longer than a 2 stock event." TGC 5 had 240 1vs1 entrants and 80 2vs2 teams. I did sign-ups on site and finished 12.5 hours later. I finished before 1am as advertised. Dabuz told me that most events he attends on the EC end around 3-4am, have far less entrants and use 2 stock."


Pro player Dabuz gave his own comments on how the event went with three stocks. In his exact words: "WITH A 3 STOCK 7 MINUTE RULESET (Which BTW, I actually liked @_@ near the top 8 though when players play more safe, matches did something drag on though) AND POOLS WHERE EVERYONE THAT GOES INTO LOSERS IS RESEEDED BACK INTO WINNERS, everything was finished by midnight. That's really, really, really, really impressive. I would expect this kind of event to be 2 day."

Into the future, it seems a large section of Texas as well as Europe is looking to run 3 stocks. Another major this weekend, Ossom Fights, will take place in Spain and is set to use three stocks so it will be an interesting events to watch and study. will it still be a strong event for spectators, or is two stock superior in this case?
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So looking into the past, it seems the time events take was a primary factor in deciding our ruleset as well as stock counts. With varying sides to this issue it seems this will be a continued source of discussion within the community. Hopefully as this discussion continues we can look back into our past for inspiration and use it to come up with the best ruleset for the game's future.

Writer's Note: A special thank you to Crillxz for helping develop the idea for and inspiring this article. Consider following Crillxz on Twitter for future brilliant ideas.
 
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Comments

two stocks always seemed a bit unfair to me, especially if someone decides to camp and simply drain the clock. not necessarily a bad idea but it does work in some cases. 3 stocks seems long but it all just depends on how you play, in that sense if for whatever reason a kid enters a tourney and has little knowledge of the game, most likely that match would be over in less than 5 minutes. point is, its the players fault for making the match longer than it should, maybe campers should be punished or something idk but, smash 4 is still relatively new to the competitive scene and we are still adapting
 
I have yet to run into a person who 100% camps me at a tournament. That's including Rosalina, Sonic and Villager so I'd be 100% cool with 3 lives.

I'm also not one for 100% defense so I vastly mix up my play style in game. (Well I try too ;-P)
 
2 stock is fine. Matches are plenty long enough. What matches are people watching to where 2 stock is "over too quickly"? Matches usually take so long, I forget that it's 2 stock. Do we have any metrics on the average match length of 2-stock Sm4sh compared to 4-stock Melee?

All the arguments regarding comebacks or the opponent mentally burning out are silly. By that logic, the matches need to be 4 or 5 stock to allow counter comebacks. We won't have a statistically perfect sample until 99 stock!
 
I honestly think grand finals should be 3 stocks. makes it even more interesting to me. comebacks are going to be even more hype if this happens.
 
Don't particularly care either way, but I prefer 2 stocks in Smash 4. Considering I've had plenty of 6 minute matches go to time over this past year I don't think it's a bad call.
 
3 stock for high level tourneys, 2 otherwise.

Why? Because of skill and playstyle. Tell me, would you really want to be in a tournament setting where there are FG Link's battling it out, best of 3, using a 3 stock match format? NO. That's why I say for high level play. People are less likely to be campy and less 'I'm going to roll around and sit in my shield all day and wait for you to mess up'.

I'm thinking like, divide it up somehow. Like Top 8 or something being 3 stock with pools and stuff being 2. That would make things a bit more interesting, at least for me.
 
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Canadian TO here, and I wanted to weigh in on the two Smash tourneys being presented, and offer some more insight.

FC Return hosted Smash 4 with 3 stocks, and had massive time issues.
TGC5 hosted Smash 4 with 3 stocks, and everything ran smoothly, on time.

Now, what is the source of this discrepancy? Could it be quality of TOing? Doubtful, both Xyro and Juggleguys are legendary TO's in the Smash scene. Could it be setups? Possibly a factor, yes, I don't have hard data on how many setups were present.

But here's the biggest culprit, in my opinion:

Pools.

FC Return had Round Robin pools.
TGC5 had Bracket pools.

With attendance for Smash 4 tournaments growing at an explosive rate (In my region, at least, I hope your scenes are as blessed as mine is) We need to take a serious look at how our pools are going to run going forward, especially if we're thinking of upping the stock count.

Round Robin pools are a tradition, at least in my region. Every event here, even the majors, have them. They give tournament attendees a lot of matches and they really help maximize the money spent to enter by giving you more than just 2 matches to lose and learn from.

But they take FOREVER. They take forever to run, most of the tourney time is eaten up before brackets even begin. On average, I find pools of 6 people given 2-3 setups per pool, take an hour and thirty minutes to run. Some take longer, some go quicker, but that's the pace I've noticed.

Meanwhile, bracket pools, while giving players potentially less matches to play, are used at many majors and nationals due to necessity. In the time it would take you to run a 6-8 person Round Robin pool you could be completing a 16 person double elim bracket pool off the same amount of setups. When tournaments are 200+ people, you need a way to sift through players as quickly as possible.

As it stands, with how much time Round Robin pools already take, adding an extra stock is a sizable chunk of time that most tournaments can't afford. It doesn't have much affect on an individual game, maybe 2 or so minutes, but amplify that by the amount of sets needed to be played in each pool. . . and you have a serious time sink on your hands.

Most other fighting game communities I have been a part of run double elim bracket pools over Round Robin, even for the "Smaller" events (100 attendee ballpark figure) and they rarely run into time issues.

I don't think 3 stock is viable for Round Robin pools, but with the attendance growth we've been seeing, I'm not sure Round Robin pools are going to be viable for much longer even in a 2 stock meta without tacking an extra day onto the tourney. (Which in turn, increases venue fee required to pay for said venue)

We're outgrowing Round Robin. If we, as a community, can accept that, I think we have a real shot at making 3 stock events viable. . . But as it stands, we can't have it both ways. We have to make a decision: What's more important to us? More matches, or more stocks?
 
If we are to learn from history then that would seem to indicate a 3 stock format.

It seems its mostly always been a push-pull between the 2 biggest factors - time & gameplay. In most if not all previous smash games we've settled on a format that takes time hugely into consideration but have prioritized gameplay slightly more.

So now the question is which format is better for gameplay? I am used to using 2 stocks in sm4sh and in this familiarity i've found comfort like many of you, BUT, I would like to hear how other than time a format that favoured the first kill and relied less on consistency could possibly be better for gameplay.

You already can find proof that 3stock can keep schedule and in most cases where it didn't i'm willing to bet there was an underlying/overlooked issue.
 
If anyone wants to fly/bus me out to run 3 stock events faster or as fast as 2 stock events, I'm open to the idea ;)
 
I'm all for 3 stocks in the future. The meta is getting faster, even if the game mechanics do favor defensive tactics. 2 stocks leave so little room for comebacks and if I recall correctly, statistics were taken by some community members to show that the player who takes the first stock won significantly more often than the other player. Of course that meant that the other player was better but it also means there is less time for a player to adapt, kind of how Leffen was against Bo3 sets at EVO for that same reason.

Last I checked, the whole "Sm4sh takes too long" issue came about because TOs who ran both Melee and Sm4sh were mad because they and the players just wanted Melee to get started but had to wait for Sm4sh to finish. We all remember how Apex 2015 went in that regard. Just look at MLG Finals or TBH5 Sm4sh Top 8s, they are nothing like the Apex Top 8. 3 stock is the future.
 
Why? I, for one, agree with him. Asking as you're telling the person what set you're using and stuff, it's cool. Mii fighters have the potential to add longevity to the game with their "create your own fighter" niche and ability to carve your own play style instead of trying to fit it in already restrictive characters.
You realize he's talking about a guy who said smash 64 should be 3 stocks, the main reason he commented on his post, right?
 
That song in the smash 64 video is performed by Flow. The same guys that did that remixed Cha-la-head-cha-la song for Dragonball Xenoverse.
 
So it seems like there have always been arguments about stock numbers, and they've almost always been about time concerns...
 
no it wouldn't, go away
My post used the word "could", that communicates the possibility. It is a possibility that SSB64 may benefit from 3 stocks - a possible potential that exists so long as the SSB64 community does not utilize it to a reasonable extent (however long or short it may be and to whatever stage of tournament decided upon).

For you to say "no" without reason and "go away" only serves to make people question your side more (it lacks, therefore people will ask "why?"). And if you don't provide any good reasons then it will most certainly strengthen my proposition of just how much the SSB64 community could benefit from 3 stocks...

Reducing 10 stocks to 6 stocks was good... reducing 6 stocks to 5 stocks was good... reducing 5 stocks to 4 stocks seems to be working out... hmm...
 
D
All the arguments regarding comebacks or the opponent mentally burning out are silly. By that logic, the matches need to be 4 or 5 stock to allow counter comebacks. We won't have a statistically perfect sample until 99 stock!
Logical fallacy: Slippery slope. Try again.
 
At some point there needs to stop being the mentality of constantly cutting stocks in order to save time. I think I'm gonna through my vote that high end should have 3 stock, low end 2. Top 16 or so should have 3 stock matches as the players themselves can easily handle it and not go into time, while 2 stock for all sets leading up can give ample opportunity to get everyone their sets while making sure the time factor isn't a huge problem.
 
For you to say "no" without reason and "go away" only serves to make people question your side more (it lacks, therefore people will ask "why?"). And if you don't provide any good reasons then it will most certainly strengthen my proposition of just how much the SSB64 community could benefit from 3 stocks...
While his response was a little harsh maybe, he doesn't have to provide reasons - anyone who plays the game can see why 64 uses 5 stocks and not 3.

Your the one making the absurd claim, why don't you provide the reasons?
 
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SSB64 would do better with 3 stocks. I'd keep the set Best of 3 still.

Melee will forever stay 4 stocks despite that seeming to be a USA invention (from my memory Japan used 3 stocks). 3 stocks probably works out fine for Melee though, but I don't see the Melee community changing anything ever because their game is absolutely perfect and the greatest game ever crafted.

Brawl, honestly I had most fun with 1-stock matches - Best of 3 worked out ok with 1-stock matches somehow. Best of 5 was ok for finals, but lost interest watching Best of 7 for some reason.

SSB4? I'd be fine with SSB4 using 3 stocks. I'm ok with 2-stocks too.
I'm more concerned with lifting the ridiculous bans and moveset restriction on the Mii fighters first. When the big issues are dealt with professionally then we can move on.

The reason it's not changing is because the meta is pretty set in stone at this point. Why is it ever necessary to play out 3 stock matches, when 4 stock works just as fine.

The idea is to get the best representation of player skill in the shortest amount of time. More stocks give a greater representation of skill, as the expense of time. A full best of 5 set, played to game 5 takes 15-20 mins. That's not so much time as to make tournaments go on forever. It's the longest so as to be tolerable to watch as well.

4 stocks isn't just a decision made because the game is perfect, it has plenty of flaws, and many Melee players feel as though it is the most appropriate ruleset. Personally, I would advocate to shorten the timer to 6 mins, but that's not really a big concern.
 
I actually attended FC, no offense to the Kish bros as I do play smash with them from time to time, and I have to say it could have run better. Doing pools is nice but not when you have 100+/- people playing. They said they wanted more people to play more games but that might not be good when you have that many people. A strictly seeded double elimination bracket would have run better in my personal opinion. Plus all the side events took place shortly after pools, making it run a little slower, not the 3 stock rule. But it was a learning experience. I'm all for 3 stocks and I hope it changes soon, but for now it will be ok at 2.
 
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Smash 4 is just such a campy game. I sometimes get bored playing two stocks, three would drain my enthusiasm. I did like three when the game first launched as it gave me more time to make myself familiar with opposing characters. Once you learn the roster though it gets boring dodging projectiles and waiting for your opponents mistakes.
 
I think Brawl should be considered to be ran on two stocks. A lot of the game has the tendency to drag for a spectator (even though I personally find it exciting).

One stock on the other hand almost seems like a gimmick. Its almost the same problem as if you ran the entire game in sudden death where its just about getting the quick kill.
 
Personally I'm sort of leaning towards three stock instead of two. Two stock can be just as boring as 3, considering how campy I've seen some Sm4sh matches be. Alternatively, if they're not drawn out then they're over in a few minutes. Two stock seem like too little while three stock seem just right.
 
I like the idea of 3 stock matches in Smash 4. Although, I've grown adjusted to the 2 stock rule set so it may end up being difficult trying to adjust to a change, but I've only just begun competitive.
 
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