Smash Clone

[DarkDragoon]

False! If Project M is used at tournaments or on stream, it could be said that the person using the license is using their likenesses and properties for gain.

Little do people realize that you can be horribly sued for hosting a tournament. It's just that companies have little to gain outside of bad press for doing so. In this case, creating a game based off of their intellectual property is grounds for a big time lawsuit.

the more you know.

Came in to say this.
See: Brawl at MLG not being streamed.
-DD

 

[dmbrandon]

Exactly. Nintendo wouldn't sign off for MLG to stream. Without streaming, a competitive game in this time has no future. Project M has no future.

I would hope the clone you make has characters unique in and of itself. Using Nintendo's cast is only gonna get you in trouble. Think: Skullgirls, smash style.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

This topic convinced me to download blender. I've never 3D modeled before, but I'm really enjoying it. It might just be the medium in which I've wanted to express my work with that I've been looking for

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'd love to take a look at this engine some time : o

But yeah, this is interesting though I honestly doubt this is going to get carried far.

Additionally, comparing to Skullgirls is pretty illegitimate. They have an office space rented out etc, they're really professional even though being "fans". I doubt that level of communication/cooporation can be achieved on here.

 

[dmbrandon]

I'm not saying they're gonna reach the level of Skullgirls, don't be ridiculous. but that should be the ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

 

[dualseeker]

I agree. There are plenty of games that didn't have too "professional" of a development team, or space, and yet they still became immensely popular.

Just look at Cave Story. The development team consisted of just one person, and it took several years to make. It is now loved by a vast number of people now.

This game has the potential to be big if it's done right.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm not saying they're gonna reach the level of Skullgirls, don't be ridiculous. but that should be the ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

I never claimed that you claimed that, I'm just saying that comparing it to Skullgirls is simply impossible.

An ultimate goal is cool and all, but what about staying reasonable? I know about the whole "Aim for the moon, even if you miss you'll still be among the stars"-thing, but it works demotivating on the long run; having such a hard-to-reach goal, that is.

 

[dmbrandon]

Skullgirl's ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

Jesse's should-be ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

What part of this is escaping you?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

What part of "achievable" is escaping you?

You're missing my point. You're arguing things I've never denied or claimed =/


That said, to avoid confusion, I absolutely support this project. I think it's a great incentive but it's not weird to have doubts about how this will work out given circumstances.

 

[dmbrandon]

You're saying him making a Smash game from scratch is more likely to be achieved, than a game of new characters?

It's the same amount of work, besides having an artist draw some designs up. smfh

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

...yeah you can go back to elementary school now because reading seems to be a weak point.

Or are you INTENTIONALLY twisting words?

 

[dmbrandon]

I honestly can't tell if you're trolling. There's no way someone can be as dense as you're seeming.

 

[Anthon1996]

I wanna help!

Too bad I'm too lazy. I might make a good artist.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I'm an artist, I could help in whatever I can. I'm teaching myself how to color right now, but I have an ...interesting drawing style. Learning something new every day

I'm going to regret this, since I have nothing professional posted, and some of my older artwork is pretty bad, but here's my deviantart. I haven't used it in the last 3, 4 years except a couple of old sketches I posted recently

http://psychoincarnate.deviantart.com/

 

[DarkDragoon]

I'm an artist, I could help in whatever I can. I'm teaching myself how to color right now, but I have an ...interesting drawing style. Learning something new every day

I'm going to regret this, since I have nothing professional posted, and some of my older artwork is pretty bad, but here's my deviantart. I haven't used it in the last 3, 4 years except a couple of old sketches I posted recently

http://psychoincarnate.deviantart.com/

I really like your style. You make some pretty neat monsters.

If you have a .edu email address, I suggest you get a Student License for Maya2012 and use that for 3d Modeling, because it is just so much easier to use than Blender is, and free for students!

-DD

 

[vidjogamer]

I really like your style. You make some pretty neat monsters.

If you have a .edu email address, I suggest you get a Student License for Maya2012 and use that for 3d Modeling, because it is just so much easier to use than Blender is, and free for students!

-DD

Actually the new blender 2.6 is really easy to use. There are also great tutorials on blendercookie.com as well as all over youtube for anyone interested. Anything from Jonathan Williamson is top notch. The site also has concept art and 3ds max sister sites. No Maya though for whatever reason.

Skullgirl's ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

Jesse's should-be ultimate goal: New IP, great mechanics.

This is spot on. Well put.

This topic convinced me to download blender. I've never 3D modeled before, but I'm really enjoying it. It might just be the medium in which I've wanted to express my work with that I've been looking for

Check out the site I listed at the top of this post.

But yeah, this is interesting though I honestly doubt this is going to get carried far.

You might be right. Ill continue working on it even if no one supports it. Really the biggest thing for it to gain popularity at this point is art.

Vidjo why don't you just join the Project: M team?

I agree with a lot of what dmbrandon said. I really want to give us a new game. I really dont feel that a hack will ever take off. I'd love to be proven wrong but this project is the one for me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hey, I support you completely man.

What's the language you're using for this? C++?

 

[dmbrandon]

It was a crime, that guy disagreeing with me.

But the true crime was him making me second guess myself. It's gonna rain fire.

 

[vidjogamer]

Hey, I support you completely man.

What's the language you're using for this? C++?

Yep, C++. I appreciate the support. =)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Meh, can't help you out exactly in that case. Haven't applied C++ often enough to be efficient enough et cetera.

Anyways, make sure you set milestones to achieve in a project like this, it helps lots with motivation.

 

[FerrishTheFish]

It was a crime, that guy disagreeing with me.

LOL trust a Unity Ruleset Committee Member to think disagreeing with him is a crime.

 

[dmbrandon]

LOL trust a Unity Ruleset Committee Member to think disagreeing with him is a crime.

:D!

10:Ds!

 

[PEEF!]

for gain.

What are we gaining? There is no selling, there is no stealing. Are we going to be sued for 12 inches of e-peen? In order to sue, there has to be damage. Where is the damage.

For those saying "mods won't take off/have no future" what is Counterstrike?

 

[DarkDragoon]

What are we gaining? There is no selling, there is no stealing. Are we going to be sued for 12 inches of e-peen? In order to sue, there has to be damage. Where is the damage.

For those saying "mods won't take off/have no future" what is Counterstrike?

Yeah. They'll sue because you're bringing attention to your work made out of their work, or if your streams have ads, or any little reason they feel like picking at, they'll stick to it, send a C&D knowing full well you can't combat them legally, and let it die.

And the mod can get popular and take off all it wants, but without Nintendo supporting it like Valve did with Counter Strike, there is no way there can ever legally be big-name tournaments in the likes of MLG/EVO/etc.

And then of course if it gets too big, then it gets the C&D treatment, etc.
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrono_Resurrection

-DD

 

[dmbrandon]

Ads on streams, ads on site that host the game's premise as a plausable reason for coming to the site, etc.

And Counter Strike was backed by Valve, a company that ALLOWED AND ENCOURAGED MODDING. Not Nintendo, the company whose employees added tripping to provide the competitive community with a reason to stop playing their games seriously.

Don't argue just to argue.

Edit: I didn't see the post above me. lol@thesame response. AND MAJOR SADNESS@CHRONO. OMFG I WANT IT

 

[Doctor X]

This is the best ending I could have possibly imagined. You must be a writer, and if you're not then you definitely have some hidden talent

Lol not really. I took freshman English in college, though!

@Peef: Listen, man. All esports organizations are for-profit. There's no charity out there for building an industry like this. In order for it to take off, it needs to be a viable business where potential investors stand to make money.

MLG in particular does this using ads, sponsorships, and subscription fees. They and the players at their events promote Doritos, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, Razer mice, Stride gum, and god knows what else. If you're telling me that there is no "gain" in these things then I really wonder whether you're paying any attention to what you're saying.

@vidjo: I want to give you my full support in this. Unfortunately there's not really much I have to offer besides letting you know that I share your dream. My expertise in both art and game programming is limited. If you need someone to complain about Nintendo for you, though, it looks like I'm pretty good at that. >.<

 

[황미영]

I'd love to take a look at this engine some time : o

But yeah, this is interesting though I honestly doubt this is going to get carried far.

Additionally, comparing to Skullgirls is pretty illegitimate. They have an office space rented out etc, they're really professional even though being "fans". I doubt that level of communication/cooporation can be achieved on here.

The only thing I say about Skullgirls, is the fact that people took the initiative about doing something they wanted. They also have a lot of legit people working with them. The artist works for Gaia Online, and they have the person who composed the music for Symphony of the Night. Das crazyyyy.

If we have talented people on Smashboards. Then yes making a game with the same quality can be done.

 

[PEEF!]

There is no gain in Project: M, will you read what I write?

 

[Doctor X]

There is no gain in Project: M, will you read what I write?

Only if Project M is never on MLG or anything like it, which is exactly the point. Some people aren't interested in a game that is doomed to remain underground and without "gain" for its entire existence. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[KZEZ]

PEEF I am a little concerned with your analysis of copyright law and as someone with experience in this field I can't help but disagree. First off, it is important to note that copyright is often described as strict liability. Courts have consistently held that the statute does not require knowledge of the copyright, mens rea (intent to infringe), or motive of commercial gain. The issue of commercial gain usually comes up in a fair use defense which Project M would seem to fail on. If you think of almost any tort law violation their is no element of gain (most notably trespass as this is basically what a copyright suit is.)

However, while not needing to show gain you will need to show an injury in order to satisfy basic standing requirements. As every law student learns on his first day of property law one of the most essential characteristics of property is the right to exclude others. This also extends to IP. In the case of Project M the alleged infringement would arise not from a passing off claim (those are usually trademark claims) but from a claim that Project M is a derivative work (as defined by17 USC 101) and adaptation would result in a violation of the authors exclusive right to adapt under 17 USC 106(2). At least that is how I would structure the case for Nintendo. Is there some reason this wouldn't be a legally cognizable claim? Is there a reason why you don't think it is a derivative work? Does this fall under home usage? parody? fair use exception?

To not attempt to brief the entire hypothetical case. Just a few quick notes.

-SCOTUS has held numerous times that creating derivative works constitutes an injury even if the original copyright holder would never create the product itself. The right they have is to the work and if people want to create a derivative work than they must go and get a license from the copyright holder. It is this charge for the license that Nintendo would be losing out on.
-As for what you would be sued for. The majority of copyright suits do not seek monetary damages but focus on injunctive relief and would be shocked to see anything different in the almost impossible chance this case did emerge.



I am sorry for that little tangent but was just curious about those issues. Back on topic, this project looks amazing and I am excited to see how this goes. Unfortunately, I do not posses any of the skills to help with it's development but wish you the best of luck.

 

[PEEF!]

PEEF I am a little concerned with your analysis of copyright law and as someone with experience in this field I can't help but disagree. First off, it is important to note that copyright is often described as strict liability. Courts have consistently held that the statute does not require knowledge of the copyright, mens rea (intent to infringe), or motive of commercial gain. The issue of commercial gain usually comes up in a fair use defense which Project M would seem to fail on. If you think of almost any tort law violation their is no element of gain (most notably trespass as this is basically what a copyright suit is.)

However, while not needing to show gain you will need to show an injury in order to satisfy basic standing requirements. As every law student learns on his first day of property law one of the most essential characteristics of property is the right to exclude others. This also extends to IP. In the case of Project M the alleged infringement would arise not from a passing off claim (those are usually trademark claims) but from a claim that Project M is a derivative work (as defined by17 USC 101) and adaptation would result in a violation of the authors exclusive right to adapt under 17 USC 106(2). At least that is how I would structure the case for Nintendo. Is there some reason this wouldn't be a legally cognizable claim? Is there a reason why you don't think it is a derivative work? Does this fall under home usage? parody? fair use exception?

To not attempt to brief the entire hypothetical case. Just a few quick notes.

-SCOTUS has held numerous times that creating derivative works constitutes an injury even if the original copyright holder would never create the product itself. The right they have is to the work and if people want to create a derivative work than they must go and get a license from the copyright holder. It is this charge for the license that Nintendo would be losing out on.
-As for what you would be sued for. The majority of copyright suits do not seek monetary damages but focus on injunctive relief and would be shocked to see anything different in the almost impossible chance this case did emerge.



I am sorry for that little tangent but was just curious about those issues. Back on topic, this project looks amazing and I am excited to see how this goes. Unfortunately, I do not posses any of the skills to help with it's development but wish you the best of luck.

I hadn't considered the right to derivative works for some reason. Kindof dumb of me really...You honestly refreshed alot of what I learned this summer.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/12/crippen-dismissed/

Do you think this case has any relevance? Someone linked it to me.

How likely do you think it is that Nintendo would even give a ****? I know thats not really legal analysis but it's part of the job haha.

 

[vidjogamer]

I decided I'd post a little sneak peak to get everyone excited for the game.

Official concept #1: http://oi41.tinypic.com/15pizbm.jpg

Hope that's enough to keep everyone hungry for more!

 

[MarkRMichaels]

Cool can you put Goku and Bear Grylls in?

 

[KZEZ]

At the start i must confess that I never really looked into all the technical aspects of how exactly the PMBR changes brawl to create P:M and it creates interesting legal problems as it runs the risk of violating both brawl and melee copyrights.

It is 3am so I just took a quick look through the case but it seemed that it doesn't seem to be the most relevant case out there for a few reasons (I can probably provide better cases if you are really interested). The first reason i wouldn't use this case is that I don't believe project M would run the risk of violating the specific provision of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act as I don't think it circumvents a technological measure designed to protect copyright material. I am not sure what technological measure nintendo would argue was circumvented. Also it is incredibly important to realize that the copyright law for firmware is much different than the copyright on code. There is actually tons I can say on this but the bottom line is code is harder to claim a property right in (see microsoft word cases). Also the fact that this case was dismissed in pretrial motions leave the merits 100% untouched makes it impossible to conclude anything about the law. It does give some useful evidence advice but that is very irrelevant to the copyright issue. The most relevant aspect to copyright i saw from a quick look at this case is the judge barred the use of a "fair use" defense in a pretrial motion.

As a practical matter I don't think Nintendo would ever do anything and if I was advising them I would advise against it. It is just more hassle than it is worth and makes them look bad especially when parents see kids are being sued by Nintendo. The only time I would suggest this is if they feel Project:M is stealing a significant market from them which seems hard to believe when P:M requires the brawl disk. There may be a better argument if P:M is pushed as a supplement to smash4 but i don't foresee that (and the % of the market that is competitive let alone playing mods is insignificant). They also could consider a brad dilution claim (this is where passing off comes up) but I don't think anyone confuses PMBR work for official Nintendo work. Therefore the only time I would think Nintendo would go forward would be if they actually believed that P:M was an abomination to their game and the simple fact of knowing people were modding it caused other potential buyers not to get the game. But even by bringing this lawsuit Nintendo would be publicizing that some people thought their game was bad enough to spend x many hours modifying the game which they don't want .

The bottom line is Nintendo probably has a decent case but as long as P:M stays respectful and does not discourage people from acquiring Nintendo products it is hard to imagine that anything would happen.

But I think I am ending a copyright law discussion on this thread if that is ok. If there are specific questions feel free to pm me. Sorry vidjo.

 

[GKInfinity]

How much game programming experience do you have vidjo? I would be ecstatic to see it completed but this is definitely gonna be a difficult project. I've seen so many people attempt something like this and pour a ton of time into it, just to end up scrapping the project in the end with little to show for it. I obviously know very little about you so you might be very highly qualified. Most of the people I've talked to who wanna do something like this have never attempted any kind of difficult game programming before and don't realize what they're getting into. You actually sound like you might have what it takes however.

I unfortunately can't help with programming or graphics, but I have a pretty good background when it comes to game creation. I can certainly help if you need an alpha tester and would be more than willing to offer advice as this project grows. While most of your suggestions for the game seem doable, having 16 people play simultaneously definitely seems like it could create some problems and doesn't really seem necessary. The customizable movesets thing sounds interesting as well, but what did you have in mind exactly?

 

[vidjogamer]

Ive been programming for 8 years. Ive worked on one commercial game project that unfortunately was cancelled, and I've done lots of engine development in my spare time. I worked as a web developer making some business sites for clients but I hated that so I left to work at this iphone development company. They were all into game design and everything at the time. Cancelled the project halfway through to pursue digital magazine publishing. Made several apps for them. And here I am today. Sick of integrating web shopping carts and and really sick of digital publishing. Im ready to make a good game.

Just saw your edit. Those things are really just extra features I'd implement after the we had a balanced game. Sixteen might be excessive but I think 8 it completely doable. I kind of have this philosophy to not limit players. The customizable movesets could be as simple as settings for damage, trajectory, lag, etc. Again, I'm more worried about a good competitive game before this, but I think it could be a fun addition.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Oh yeah, what platform is this intended for? PC?

>.> Because if you're using C++, XNA is just a short hop away and you can toss this puppy on XBLA.
-DD

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

What theme are you going for in this game?

Sci-fi, western, steampunk, middle ages, etc?

 

[Doctor X]

Suggestions:

-A more "universal" theme, like smash, where you have a bunch of vastly differing characters all in the same game.

or...

-Cartoon-stylized historical figures. Gives you some established characters that nobody really "owns." Plus it would be awesome to have something like a little angry Napoleon fighting with a big angry Abraham Lincoln. :O :O :O

 

[vidjogamer]

Sorry vidjo.

I can't quite figure out what you are sorry for.