Smash Bros. U Character matchup chart.

[Zage]

DLC version if anyone cares.

 

[miniada]

First of all sorry if this isn't where this goes... I've been innactive and havn't used the site that much. Please move if necessary.

Anyway, Super Smash Bros. for WiiU and 3ds have been out for almost a full 3 months now, and while I know a lot of you are itching for the first teir list, most would agree it is too soon. (The First Teir list for Brawl was releaced in September2008, 6 months after the game has been out.) However that doesn't mean we can't have a little bit of matchup fun/descussion/debate.

So, I have compiled this, Its a blank chart for matchups regarding SmashU.

I actually had the idea for this while sniffing arround Smash64's wikipedia page, and they had something very similar to this. Anyway, the idea behind this is you can make your own matchup chart, or even just make part of one. Maybe just for your main character. The idea is to use these:

and

for matchups. The green being a advantage matchup and the red being a dissadvantage.

NOTE: While you can use the Black Dot if you want, (Representing an even matchup) I would highly reccomend that you don't as the only true even matchups would be the same character...

Most people should know their main... and what characters are a good matchup or a bad matchup. I'm a Ness main myself and I can tell you I matchup well againced oponents who use Lucario or MegaMan, but not well againced oponents like King Dedede and Link. (Before you get butthurt I should note this is just my opinion... Besides, its hard to get a feel when 90% of the online matchups are LittleMac and Link...)
Here is my matchup chart for Ness:

I will admit, this was pretty thrown together... If you have any corrections feel free to make one yourself, I used my main as an example so it should be pretty accurate in general.

Thats the point of this matchup chart, My hope is that we might be able to get a general idea of Good/Bad matchups for certain characters... Or just to give those of us with too much time on our hands something to do.

Have fun!

How do you make a matchup chart I'm ready to make one for mario when I was researching matchups when diddy was still anoying

 

[miniada]

Can someone tell me how to make a matchup chart for a charecter

 

[KenMeister]

Bout' freaking time, I was looking forward to this waaaay more than the tier list.

Might have to inform the Mario and Doc boards about this.

 

[miniada]

Accidentally double posted

 

[miniada]

I need to know how to make one for mario myself and show it to this thread I made do you know how to make a chart

 

[Ol' King Dedede]

I'm pretty sure Cpt. Falcon, Shiek and ZSS are top tier in this game, not Bowser and BJ.

 

[S-Ness]

I believe there is already a posted topic for this so I will keep the response breif. As I said this was thrown together, Little mac was defenetly a mess up on my part, but as I said I made this for example purposes and this isn't designed to give a propper matchup for Ness. I put Bowser and Dedede on because of their seemingly easy ability to Pop our puny shields, even a partly charged SideSmash will pop that shield if we accedently miss the roll, while I know it can be argued that its easy to avoid, missing the roll does happen... and its fatal when it does.

Then every characters would have the disadvantage against Bowser and Dedede, nuff said.

 

[GenNyan]

I'm pretty sure Cpt. Falcon, Shiek and ZSS are top tier in this game, not Bowser and BJ.

Its clearly alphabetical.

Putting a matchup down as neutral just because there is no consensus makes no sense. For example, I think Sonic is a terrible matchup for Robin, while another user on the Robin boards claims it's 50/50. It wouldn't make sense to just say the matchup is neutral when neutral is one of the options being argued.

Also, people tend to have a strong bias towards their own character, especially if it's a mid tier or low tier. People who main X will say X wins the X vs Y matchup, while people who main Y will say Y wins the matchup.

Many times players will actually underestimate the strength of their own characters actually. I don't know too much about the Sm4sh scene, but in Melee, Hbox says puff isn't top tier and M2K says Falco is better than Fox, Marth and Sheik (his mains).

Many times people on the boards who make claims on match ups and such simply don't know enough about each character to have a valid opinion (this is not derogatory, I don't have enough knowledge to speak about such things accurately.)

 

[Nu~]

How does one fill this out?

 

[Hathaway12]

Been going on character match-up discussion forums to try to give somewhat of an idea on what people think of different match-ups (trying to be unbiased without my thoughts on the match-ups). Only have done this with Rosalina so far and data of course won't be 100% true and can change in future metas)
Green= Positive match-up for the character on the left.
Red= Negative match-up for character on the left.
Black= Perceived neutral match-up or mixed results from character forums.
Gray= I couldn't find much information on the match-up.
For those asking how to fill it out, I saved Zage's version of the chart and went to paint filling in the squares with the different colors.
Edit: This is assumed with customs off and not sure what to assume for mii characters.

 

[Notsocool]

I'm just gonna say that while a well thought-out match-up chart would be undoubtedly useful for the community: It's self evident that creating an accurate 1v1 matchup chart between 55 different characters will not be a short task nor an simple one (and creating one with custom moves even more so.) But I hardly believe it's hopeless.

What I think we should do is start with just the characters that have top of the top tier impressions and then build the chart one character at a time, comparing the current character in progess with the rest of the characters.

To explain in detail, We would look into the top four characters. (Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu and Luigi are the characters consider to be those characters according to the op of http://smashboards.com/threads/viability-ratings-v2-competitive-impressions.410551/.)

1. Explore the meta-game of those top four characters. (Probably on their representative boards.)
2. Conclude which of the 6 unique non-mirror matchups have an advantage, a disadvantage, or an equal change.
3. Create an initial 4x4 match-up chart.
4. Reseach the next character in line. (At this stage it's Rosalina & Luma)
5. Conculde their matchups with the characters above them, add into the match up chart.
6. Repeat with the next character.

In reality the process of reseaching matchups would likely not be faster, and I'm fullly aware that the "teir list" is far from being fully conclusive. But I think this is a good idea because we would start the long road of this match-up chart by covering the dominant strategies of the current metagame, and then taking the next step by finding out what tools the next character has to handle those strategies, this way we can start off with the best of both worlds.

And while contributing to this by posting 1x55 character match-ups are absolutely great for the mains of said characters, and sharing two or three top-teir match-ups can be helpful, neither of those would do much good at covering the "greater whole from the sum of its parts" meta game which is the important utility of the match-up chart.

And I guess that I want to do it in this manner because I haven't really settle on a character main and I want a match-up chart to get more detail info of which of my considered characters are viable as mains and secondaries, And I'm not intersted in maining Shiek or Mario solely because of their presumably all-round match-ups.

So even though I'm not even close to qualified at making an astute match-up chart, I want to contribute however I can.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Luigi isn't top 4

 

[teddystalin]

I'm just gonna say that while a well thought-out match-up chart would be undoubtedly useful for the community: It's self evident that creating an accurate 1v1 matchup chart between 55 different characters will not be a short task nor an simple one (and creating one with custom moves even more so.) But I hardly believe it's hopeless.

What I think we should do is start with just the characters that have top of the top tier impressions and then build the chart one character at a time, comparing the current character in progess with the rest of the characters.

To explain in detail....

Luigi isn't top 4

>Guy makes his first post interesting and well-thought out
>Gets dismissed with a one-liner

Wecome to Smashboards!

---
Anyhow, allow me to get a little pedantic in response to both of y'all. The viability list is not, nor does it ever claim to be a tier list. It's a threat list. It's not trying to establish a ranked listing of the best characters, it's trying to show which characters are the most important or influential in the current metagame. For instance, if one watches Ranai play a lot, they'd probably be led to believe that villager is a high or even top tier character. On the threat list, however, he's ranked at 16. Why? Because it's not a match-up most players will ever need to deal with. The character has a small number of decent players and a good overall match-up spread, but it isn't going to have a large impact on another character's competitive viability.

Luigi, on the other hand, has one of the most polarizing match-up spreads in the whole game. He tends to either stomp a character or get totally shut out by them. Additionally, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up - anyone can have a pocket Luigi. When most people talk about their character's match-ups, Luigi is going to be one of the first characters to come up, especially with how he dominates local and regional tournaments.

So while I may not necessarily support @ Notsocool 's idea (I mean, it's a decent idea, but when have these attempts to construct match-up charts systematically ever worked), I can't fault him or the top players who made the threat list for including Luigi in the top 5. He may not be among top 5 best characters, but he's certainly one of the top 5 most centralizing. If we were to use this method, Luigi should be one of the first characters to look at.

 

[thebeatles145]

I strongly suggest trying to get this more helpers. This is an extremely helpful tool that should be used. My only complaint is that for certain people it's not easy to fill out, but if this gets done, it can really help newcomers learn match ups while leaving them to think about why. It can also help people choosing secondaries to cover match ups like Sheik and weegee

 

[wizrad]

Maybe we should just wait for all this official tier list and matchup junk until the game is finished being patched.

 

[thebeatles145]

The thing is that is may not be until next year, and I say if it is completely filled up natchups don't change completely between patches, but it's not like it can't be updated!

 

[WritersBlah]

I think the real issue here is that we have no idea when the game will "finish" being patched. It could be in a year, it could be until the next Smash game is officially announced. We really have no clue what Sakurai's long-term plan is, and that makes collecting any of our usual data a huge hassle. Heck, we have at least three more characters coming out as DLC, and who knows how competitively viable they'll be? I think the truth of the matter is that we can't treat Smash 4 the same way we treated the last three games, being able to rely on our collected data to make logical tier list and matchup conclusions. We're constantly being challenged and put on our toes every three months, so maybe we need to refocus and find a new course of action to best suit our interests under the new circumstances.

 

[GenNyan]

Heck, we have at least three more characters coming out as DLC, and who knows how competitively viable they'll be?

Well, all the other DLC characters (Not including mewtwo, the free one) are solidly viable mid/high tiers. This of course makes sense from a business standpoint. Make them too weak, and people won't buy them, but make them too strong, and people will get really angry that it's "pay to win."

 

[SuqAta8]

so

was this whole thing just a lost cause?

i dont see any charts at all filled

 

[thebeatles145]

Sadly I believe it is. I personally want it back though

 

[GenNyan]

I personally want it back though

Then just do it yourself. This is not the first thread that tried to rally people for a MU chart, nor will it be the last. People are always "oh yeah it would be so great to have one of these!!!!11!1!" and then nobody actually helps in any way, including the OP.

 

[Hathaway12]

Mainly it is too much work for people to want to put work into especially with the possibility of future patches drastically changing certain match-ups. I would help to contribute more myself but i have been busy with college and don't own a wii u currently myself.
Anyway if people want to start this up again i would suggest starting with the most well known characters and analyzing there match-ups against each other slowly moving down to the less known/not as viable characters.
Here is an example of something like this that i posted in this http://smashboards.com/threads/how-far-away-are-we-from-a-matchup-chart.419973/#post-20295072 thread a while back with information that i could get from the various character forums.

 

[vegeta18]

I'm more than willing to put in the work and take the first few steps, figuring it out is a bit difficult though, seems like every method of creating a mu chart will be argued against for not being perfect. Not sure the best way for me to go about it, and even if I do try and get something going it would probably just die down pretty fast if not enough people participate since they don't like the method being used to decide the matchups.

 

[Zareidriel]

This thing intrigues me. I'll do it. I'll submit a thread to every character board tonight, allow one week of voting, aggregate the results, and this thing will be done in less than two weeks.

It won't be perfect, but it will exist and be somewhat functional.

Thanks for making the chart Assassannerr and updating it Zage .

 

[jaimex2]

Sonic chart can be found here: http://smashboards.com/threads/sonic-and-the-book-of-matchups-chapter-24-25-pit-s-toon-link.390575/

 

[Zareidriel]

The voting period for the Matchup Chart Project will end tomorrow, Friday, at midnight.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If anyone is interested about Rosalina's current match-up table, you can always check it out at the link below.

http://smashboards.com/threads/404194/

Note: The tables are split between customs OFF and customs ON. Also, the tables will be updated before the end of each Sunday, depending on if any new score inputs alter the overall average scores for each character.

 

[vegeta18]

Zareidriel you are doing

This thing intrigues me. I'll do it. I'll submit a thread to every character board tonight, allow one week of voting, aggregate the results, and this thing will be done in less than two weeks.

It won't be perfect, but it will exist and be somewhat functional.

Thanks for making the chart Assassannerr and updating it Zage .

Great job so far man, you are doing well. I find it really annoying that a bunch of character boards keep bringing up whats wrong with this idea and things like: match up charts dont work, just look at our 2000 pages of matchup discussion, this games too young, other peoples votes are stupid, etc.

These comments are all ridiculous, these are the main reason we havent had any progress towards making a matchup chart, everyone just puts down the idea right away. Its actually very simple, we just need to do something like this to take a first step towards having a general matchup chart. It may not be anywhere near perfect and it may change with updates, but we will simply just update this match up chart and fix it up as necessary. People need to stop commenting on why it wont work and just give it a try or dont comply. Say nothing or just stick to the rules that the topic says and the person organizing this is approaching with. If there are flaws with this matchup chart, we can deal with them when the time comes but something is better than nothing.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

I feel as a whole we should use match up charts considering how mu dependent this game is...

 

[Zareidriel]

Zareidriel you are doing Great job so far man, you are doing well. I find it really annoying that a bunch of character boards keep bringing up whats wrong with this idea and things like: match up charts dont work, just look at our 2000 pages of matchup discussion, this games too young, other peoples votes are stupid, etc. These comments are all ridiculous, these are the main reason we havent had any progress towards making a matchup chart, everyone just puts down the idea right away. Its actually very simple, we just need to do something like this to take a first step towards having a general matchup chart. It may not be anywhere near perfect and it may change with updates, but we will simply just update this match up chart and fix it up as necessary. People need to stop commenting on why it wont work and just give it a try or dont comply. Say nothing or just stick to the rules that the topic says and the person organizing this is approaching with. If there are flaws with this matchup chart, we can deal with them when the time comes but something is better than nothing.

THIS. ****ING THIS. Thank you, Prince of all Saiyans. I've gotten a few positive words here and there but there has been a lot of hate and negativity toward the project. The reasons you stated are EXACTLY why we can't get anything done around here. I'm glad someone is on the same page as me!

 

[Zareidriel]

That's all folks! We had some late votes rolling in so I'll stop the voting now and start working on the chart.

Exception: If your character has less than FIVE VOTES you may continue to vote up to 5 and I will change what I am doing as necessary.

A big thanks to everyone who participated! I literally could not have done it without you. I'll post the results in a new thread in a few days.

 

[miniada]

That's all folks! We had some late votes rolling in so I'll stop the voting now and start working on the chart.

Exception: If your character has less than FIVE VOTES you may continue to vote up to 5 and I will change what I am doing as necessary.

A big thanks to everyone who participated! I literally could not have done it without you. I'll post the results in a new thread in a few days.

When this new thread comes out can you send a link on this to that thread.

 

[Zareidriel]

No problemo chief.

 

[thebeatles145]

Wish i could've voted. I haven't been checking smashboards in a while.

I'm glad this got some attention. Maybe you can renew every once in a while like the voted tier lists?

 

[vegeta18]

when can we expect the chart to be posted?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's all folks! We had some late votes rolling in so I'll stop the voting now and start working on the chart.

Exception: If your character has less than FIVE VOTES you may continue to vote up to 5 and I will change what I am doing as necessary.

A big thanks to everyone who participated! I literally could not have done it without you. I'll post the results in a new thread in a few days.

There was a problem with the Ike boards voting that may or may not have shown up on other boards as well:

We only had 6 votes. 2 of those were from people I had never seen before and had some votes that went against widely accepted opinions within the regular Ikes, which can obviously mess with the data. What do you have in place to stop well, randoms that just happened to be on that day with incorrect opinions from messing with the vote tallies?

 

[Zareidriel]

Wish i could've voted. I haven't been checking smashboards in a while.

I'm glad this got some attention. Maybe you can renew every once in a while like the voted tier lists?

Well if you know anything about Falcon you could still go vote over there. He has less than five (actually still zero I think) so you can vote for him in overtime. And yes I would like to do this again, maybe in the middle of next year, but with a more difficult and accurate plan. I was considering a system where the character boards nominate 3 of their best players to cast their ballots for the Matchup Chart, or something of that nature.

when can we expect the chart to be posted?

Before Friday of this week. Hopefully much before, but I've been pretty crunched for time lately.

There was a problem with the Ike boards voting that may or may not have shown up on other boards as well:

We only had 6 votes. 2 of those were from people I had never seen before and had some votes that went against widely accepted opinions within the regular Ikes, which can obviously mess with the data. What do you have in place to stop well, randoms that just happened to be on that day with incorrect opinions from messing with the vote tallies?

I am somewhat ashamed to say that is one of the majors flaw of this system. I have no way to stop that from happening. I may rarely tweak the final matchup results based on the opinions of high-level players. We can only hope that the correct opinions outweighed the incorrect ones, in the majority of cases.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I am somewhat ashamed to say that is one of the majors flaw of this system. I have no way to stop that from happening. I may rarely tweak the final matchup results based on the opinions of high-level players. We can only hope that the correct opinions outweighed the incorrect ones, in the majority of cases.

I don't particularly like the "only high-level players' opinions matter" mindset. High-level players are still human, and the chance that they could be biased about a matchup is very possible.

For example, let's say that a high-level player is from a region with no good [Character X] mains. This high-level player would have no knowledge whatsoever of the matchup between their own main and [Character X]. Therefore, their opinion on that matchup isn't any more trustworthy than that of a mid-level player who is from a region with many [Character X] mains.

On the opposite end, consider an example of a high-level player from a region with a really, really good [Character Y] main. Let's say that this high-level player is ranked #2 on the PR, and the [Character Y] main is ranked #1. This high-level player may perceive the matchup between their own main and [Character Y] to be worse than it actually is because they always lose to/go even with this other player. Matchups are supposed to refer to when the players are of equal skill, so if one player is much worse than the other, the results won't necessarily reflect the matchup.

I'm not saying we should trust the opinions of every random, but if 99 mid-level players say one thing and 1 high-level player says something else, we shouldn't just ignore the 99 mid-level players.

 

[divade]

Very excited for this setup. I missed the voting sadly, otherwise would've voting for bow Jr.