Smash 4 at EVO?

[HeavyLobster]

Assuming Nintendo doesn't butcher the online again, Smash 4 will likely have a strong player base for that reason alone, even if the final build is very similar to the admittedly flawed demo build. However, without the support, or at least the respect, of the Melee community it won't last long at EVO. Melee will almost certainly be superior in many respects and retain a strong scene regardless of what happens with Smash 4. Smash 4 likely won't have it's metagame stagnate due to the same kind of balance problems Brawl had thanks to patches, and should be more viewer-friendly in terms of pace. It'll also be more accessible than Melee, both due to mechanics and online, so it will likely attract more new players to competitive smash, even more than Brawl did, and this will let it hang around for a while. If the Melee scene hates Smash 4 and looks down on it, however, it won't get taken seriously in competitive gaming circles and will run the risk of having top players jump ship for Melee/PM. I think Smash 4 will survive for longer than Brawl did, but in order to thrive as an eSport, it'll have to win over a good portion of the Melee community, which is currently very skeptical of it.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Well they have Namco-Bandai working on the netcode for online play and their online for fighting games is pretty solid. For Glory mode has its flaws and is not an exact replica of tournament play. BUT with Smashboards there's no excuse to not grab friend codes to play online matches the way you want.

Speaking of patches, with the ability to update their game how likely will it be that patches will be released to alter gameplay mechanics and balance the cast more?

 

[Andrex]

Guys, there are no friend codes anymore. It'll be based on Nintendo Network ID's.

 

[Gazdakka Gizbang]

I really don't agree that the Super system in PSAS hurt the game. There were loads of different ways to land your supers (at first) and they helped it feel like something other than just another smash clone. The problem was really in terrible character balance and post-launch support. I played hundreds of matches of the demo and had a ton of fun, if they had just polished up a few issues and put in more characters while keeping the balance it would have been great. Sadly, they just made the balance worse and worse while continuing to ignore the little annoyances like online freezes and desyncs.

I guess it comes down to personal opinion then, as I don't think all the balancing in the world could have saved it. If Smash ended everything with a meter-building Final Smash, I sincerely doubt it would have ever made it to EVO.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Guys, there are no friend codes anymore. It'll be based on Nintendo Network ID's.

Oh yeah my bad haha. I don't have a Wii U yet so I forgot about that.

 

[Dracometeor]

The way ledges work seems even more forgiving than brawl ledges. You grab second, you get the ledge. And blast zones and recoveries are stupidly large/long respectively. Fox isn't even good anymore but there is no reason he should be able to side b into up b. It is a shame that in a game where keeping somebody from recovery it is a tactic that is constantly discouraged instead of encouraged due to its use of skill.

Sakurai has a precedent, he has a significant bias that will not likely change because he seems to be the stubborn type. You can see it in his interviews, he cares nothing for the competitive community. It would be good if he cared as much about the competitive community as he did with putting a lot of trophies and extra content into the game but he doesn't seem the type. Those two are different things, game mechanics, and extra for fun content.

Also, hitstun is all well and good but you need low landing lag to complete the equation of making true combos. If you hit somebody, they pop into the air, you hit them with an air move and have to land....you would have to run up jump and hit them again to combo. This game pops everybody up into the air on a frequent basis so they usually aren't in hitstun anymore by the time they reach the ground. If landing lag is still very long you won't be able to follow up past one jump or using your second jump.

So because your opponent is going to be forced to bounce back into the air with a set trajectory (they keep the same directional momentum when they bounce) this will make it harder for you to combo then if your opponent landed on the ground and gained control? At low percents your opponent won't bounce far, at high percents you won't be trying to combo so much as kill and you won't care as much about that bounce when it kills them.

 

[Senario]

So because your opponent is going to be forced to bounce back into the air with a set trajectory (they keep the same directional momentum when they bounce) this will make it harder for you to combo then if your opponent landed on the ground and gained control? At low percents your opponent won't bounce far, at high percents you won't be trying to combo so much as kill and you won't care as much about that bounce when it kills them.

And what of the percents where they fly far enough to be out of your reach and don't die? Landing lag being low all around is important. You may think it is only for fast characters but low landing lag arguably helps slower chars keep up with those who have the benefit of speed.

 

[Kef]

Just to clear on thing out of the way, Nintendo didn't quite "sponsor" EVO. The Cannon brothers and Mr. Wizard put Nintendo in the list of sponsors as a "thank you" for allowing them to stream Melee at EVO this year and being really cooperative with them (ex. Reggie video before Melee finals).
Edit: http://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv/b/545845141?t=8m35s

I have no doubt in my mind that Smash 4 will be at EVO next year. The game does come out soon for the 3DS, and the home console version comes out before the year ends, so players will have more than half a year to understand the game and somewhat make conclusions if they think they game will be enjoyable for competitors+spectators.

In the worst of events (majority of the community disliking the game), I am still sure that they have a guaranteed spot at EVO. The EVO staff has already done this with games like Street Fighter X Tekken, which had a negative reaction from the community since the game came out, and even game them a second chance after their big patch.

Also, take into account the possible ailment to the relationship between Nintendo and EVO if their newest Smash is not shown after being so cooperative with each other (and Reggie saying he can't wait for players to compete once Smash 4 comes out).

Don't worry, cause if things between Nintendo and EVO remain the same, Smash 4 is 100% at EVO's Sunday finals next year.

 

[Andrex]

Just to clear on thing out of the way, Nintendo didn't quite "sponsor" EVO. The Cannon brothers and Mr. Wizard put Nintendo in the list of sponsors as a "thank you" for allowing them to stream Melee at EVO this year and being really cooperative with them (ex. Reggie video before Melee finals).

Umm, [citation needed]

Because there were a ton of Mario Kart 8 commercials and I'm pretty sure ad space is part of the "Sponsor" deal.

 

[Terotrous]

I guess it comes down to personal opinion then, as I don't think all the balancing in the world could have saved it. If Smash ended everything with a meter-building Final Smash, I sincerely doubt it would have ever made it to EVO.

Actually, I think Final Smashes could work if they were less powerful and worked on a super meter, but that's a discussion for another time.

PSAS basically had to do something new or it'd just be seen as "Smash but worse". In that sense, I think they succeeded. PSAS felt like it's own thing in a way that games like Battle Stadium DON and DreamMix TV World Fighters never did. They made some mistakes, but honestly I did have some fun with it and I'd still welcome a sequel.

Speaking of patches, with the ability to update their game how likely will it be that patches will be released to alter gameplay mechanics and balance the cast more?

Nintendo generally doesn't like balance patches. Look at Mario Kart, it has pretty severe balance issues but I doubt it'll ever see any kind of patch. If there are bugs, sure, those will get fixed, but I wouldn't count on significant balance changes.

 

[Kef]

Umm, [citation needed]

Because there were a ton of Mario Kart 8 commercials and I'm pretty sure ad space is part of the "Sponsor" deal.

Yeah, sorry for not including it initially, kinda lazy.
http://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv/b/545845141?t=8m35s

 

[Andrex]

Yeah, sorry for not including it initially, kinda lazy.
http://www.twitch.tv/ultrachentv/b/545845141?t=8m35s

Interesting. So there wasn't financial support, but it still seems like they definitely deserve the "sponsor" title.

 

[SmashChu]

Assuming Nintendo doesn't butcher the online again, Smash 4 will likely have a strong player base for that reason alone, even if the final build is very similar to the admittedly flawed demo build. However, without the support, or at least the respect, of the Melee community it won't last long at EVO. Melee will almost certainly be superior in many respects and retain a strong scene regardless of what happens with Smash 4. Smash 4 likely won't have it's metagame stagnate due to the same kind of balance problems Brawl had thanks to patches, and should be more viewer-friendly in terms of pace. It'll also be more accessible than Melee, both due to mechanics and online, so it will likely attract more new players to competitive smash, even more than Brawl did, and this will let it hang around for a while. If the Melee scene hates Smash 4 and looks down on it, however, it won't get taken seriously in competitive gaming circles and will run the risk of having top players jump ship for Melee/PM. I think Smash 4 will survive for longer than Brawl did, but in order to thrive as an eSport, it'll have to win over a good portion of the Melee community, which is currently very skeptical of it.

And there is your problem. You can't let the Melee community dictate the future of the game. The fact is they want to only play Melee. Hell, their mod is just turning Brawl into Melee. They are never going to be happy unless the game is Melee. If not, they will do their best to tear it down in every way.

What the community needs to do is say nuts to Melee and support the new game. Melee events can happen for perhaps the first year, but SSB4 always needs to be the main Smash event. When decisions have to be made, it needs to be in SSB4's favor. If only one Smash per tournament, Melee goes home. Like you said, SSB4 has potential to thrive and attract new players, but it needs to be fostered. It can't survive in a community that wants it gone. Brawl didn't fail because it was flawed, it failed because the community didn't want to back it. Brawl was in EVO AND MLG but got dumped.

The community needs to be active in killing the Melee zealotry. It needs to want to support the new game. The strategy of appeasement wont work.

 

[Dracometeor]

And what of the percents where they fly far enough to be out of your reach and don't die? Landing lag being low all around is important. You may think it is only for fast characters but low landing lag arguably helps slower chars keep up with those who have the benefit of speed.

From what I've seen/understand most of the bounces are only happening if the enemy gets spiked or meteored. Normally after getting hit by these moves it's hard to follow up anyways (Mario's fair comes to mind) whereas the bounce actually gives you more time to continue the combo.

If you bounce them too far at a certain point that's your personal fault. Just like if you mess up your combo in any other game. The mechanic allows new opportunities, but it shouldn't make it a 100% for sure combo no matter what you do.

 

[AzureFlame4]

And there is your problem. You can't let the Melee community dictate the future of the game. The fact is they want to only play Melee. Hell, their mod is just turning Brawl into Melee. They are never going to be happy unless the game is Melee. If not, they will do their best to tear it down in every way.

What the community needs to do is say nuts to Melee and support the new game. Melee events can happen for perhaps the first year, but SSB4 always needs to be the main Smash event. When decisions have to be made, it needs to be in SSB4's favor. If only one Smash per tournament, Melee goes home. Like you said, SSB4 has potential to thrive and attract new players, but it needs to be fostered. It can't survive in a community that wants it gone. Brawl didn't fail because it was flawed, it failed because the community didn't want to back it. Brawl was in EVO AND MLG but got dumped.

The community needs to be active in killing the Melee zealotry. It needs to want to support the new game. The strategy of appeasement wont work.

I really agree with you that we should try to ignore the die hard Melee fans if Smash 4 is good enough to be played at a good competitive level. I do believe there will always be those who will hate the new game just for not being melee, and then there will be those who simply agree with them just because. There really does need to be a strong push from a lot of new people entirely for 4 to become the new main game played at tournaments, otherwise it will just be another generation of melee. Don't get me wrong, it's a great game even today, but as most people have said it gets tiring. I want to see who the new top tier fighters might be. So yeah, I think we kind of have to forget about getting the melee community's approval and just make 4 the best it can be with or without their help. I think after the e3 tournament and the support Nintendo is now giving their could be enough interest outside of the melee tournament to make 4 a strong game. Only if we don't worry about the approval of the die hard melee fans though and accept that this is an entirely new game in the series and won't be the same. Honestly based on what I've seen around the internet, it could go either way though.

 

[Senario]

And there is your problem. You can't let the Melee community dictate the future of the game. The fact is they want to only play Melee. Hell, their mod is just turning Brawl into Melee. They are never going to be happy unless the game is Melee. If not, they will do their best to tear it down in every way.

What the community needs to do is say nuts to Melee and support the new game. Melee events can happen for perhaps the first year, but SSB4 always needs to be the main Smash event. When decisions have to be made, it needs to be in SSB4's favor. If only one Smash per tournament, Melee goes home. Like you said, SSB4 has potential to thrive and attract new players, but it needs to be fostered. It can't survive in a community that wants it gone. Brawl didn't fail because it was flawed, it failed because the community didn't want to back it. Brawl was in EVO AND MLG but got dumped.

The community needs to be active in killing the Melee zealotry. It needs to want to support the new game. The strategy of appeasement wont work.

The above post is an example of not being good for the conversation of balance in the game. Or blaming the players for what was essentially a restriction placed on them from the most basic of gameplay elements.

What you are suggesting is everybody dropping a game that is in competitive play based on its merits and adopting a new game that may or may not have the foundation for competitive play. A lot of competitive players love smash but they are not willing to follow on blind loyalty.

 

[NotLiquid]

Smash 4 will be a freebie for next year guaranteed. Reggie's video alone has me convinced of that much.

There's going to be a lot community disparity no matter how SSB4 eventually ends up being like, but as any major fighting community the Smash scene should embrace the opportunity they have in adapting to something new, as long as that something isn't fundamentally flawed. Brawl did have a lot of those fundamental flaws that served to exacerbate the viability of how interesting it would be to put a game like Smash Bros on the spotlight. Despite that though, there's no denying it was a competitive game because the community stayed active and dedicated. The dividing line was last year when this community was finally presented a choice which game they wanted to represent, and Melee perhaps presented those qualities more reliably in spite of Brawl's lasting impact.

I rewatched the Smash Invitational Grand Finals recently after coming off of the EVO high and to be honest I felt a lot better about it than I was on my initial viewing, mainly because it's clear the presentation in that context was heavily reliant on being an exhibition and using rulesets that better accommodated a viewing platform that wasn't exclusively competitive, but also because the game play maneuvers exhibited by the top two players made the game look fast, fluid and fun. It honestly to me felt close to an ideal speed of Smash where it's fast enough to be exciting but still balanced enough that most people will get a read on the abilities everyone exhibits. And this was even ignoring the fact that at that point in time, neither of the two characters had any experience with the game what-so-ever. At that point in the game I just appreciated how the characters would move, and that alone provided an exhilarating experience starting off, with the only thing bogging matters down being some unsure approaches on account of the players. That's going to grow to become less of an issue in due time.

But speed isn't everything and there's a lot left to swallow. Speed wasn't the only thing that made Melee the lasting game it was, and even accounting for that, the fact is that Melee does not have to be the end-all, be-all. Better things can be done with Smash. It's not necessarily likely that Smash 4 will be that, but it has every chance to be just as engaging. Can there be a way to guarantee the game has a consistent flow to it? Can it condone a solid approach to offense that leaves the players and viewers with a sense of awe? I think these are important questions to ask the game as a whole rather than simply looking at the pieces themselves of what made some nuances shine brighter in its predecessors, as Smash 4 will have a whole new set of nuances.

All I know is the transition period is obviously going to be rough no matter which way you slice it, and a lot of questions will be presented (personally I'm curious as to how Palutena will be treated competitively). But the Smash community has never been in a better position right now to let a new game take the spotlight in a huge way. It's not going to be Melee, but it certainly won't be Brawl either, and hopefully the glaring shortcomings of Brawl have all been handled that can give us a balanced game that can be enjoyed for the new takes and varied experiences.

Or we can all just fight to death.

 

[pizzapie7]

And there is your problem. You can't let the Melee community dictate the future of the game. The fact is they want to only play Melee. Hell, their mod is just turning Brawl into Melee. They are never going to be happy unless the game is Melee. If not, they will do their best to tear it down in every way.

What the community needs to do is say nuts to Melee and support the new game. Melee events can happen for perhaps the first year, but SSB4 always needs to be the main Smash event. When decisions have to be made, it needs to be in SSB4's favor. If only one Smash per tournament, Melee goes home. Like you said, SSB4 has potential to thrive and attract new players, but it needs to be fostered. It can't survive in a community that wants it gone. Brawl didn't fail because it was flawed, it failed because the community didn't want to back it. Brawl was in EVO AND MLG but got dumped.

The community needs to be active in killing the Melee zealotry. It needs to want to support the new game. The strategy of appeasement wont work.

There is no need for anything. The game should be judged for what it is. If it isn't a fun game to be played competitively, it should not be pushed simply because it's new. Brawl was a flawed game. The community didn't want to back it because it was a flawed game. And the game still survived for a while on it's own. Go read up on how and why Brawl died, it's hardly Melee's fault. It doesn't need to support a **** game because it's newer. That logic is flawed as ****. If the game is bad it shouldn't be played simply because it's the newest or because you hate competitive Melee or whatever awful reason or logic you have going on in your head. A game should be judged on it's own merits and played following that judgement.

 

[Saikyoshi]

SSBU will absolutely be at EVO 2015, and how it does there will be the ultimate judgement on whether it's a good game or not.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

While tripping wasn't a major factor by any means in the death of Brawl, it clearly showed what Sakurai wanted and designed the game to be. And while Brawl was "bigger" for much of it's life, it didn't start from scratch. It sprouted up out of Melee's already grown scene. Kind of like the newest renditions of SF or Marvel. Those scenes are already big, so the new game is brought in with open arms to a community that is already prepared for it. If the game was actually judged to have "a lot of real merit", it would still be the bigger game. Like SF4 and MVC3.

So...when people argue that Melee was a happy accident because it wasn't intended that eventually the meta-game would exploit the techniques found, Sakurai's design intentions don't matter.

Yet when you argue that Brawl failed to be competitive due to lack of proper & informed knowledge of the actual scene, Sakurai's design intention is all of the sudden a valid point?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I'm scared to read any comments in this thread.

I know how you feel.

Also, guys, you do realize it's possible to have both Melee and Smash 4 there, right? Last I checked (though this could have been changed) there's no rule about having two games from the same series there. IIRC, this year a lot of people wanted Project M as well, so...

 

[Saikyoshi]

On the topic of Reggie's video, I wonder if he'll actually sign up for the tournament...?

(Watching him get beat in pools will be hilarious.)

 

[Andrex]

Smash 4 will be a freebie for next year guaranteed. Reggie's video alone has me convinced of that much.

There's going to be a lot community disparity no matter how SSB4 eventually ends up being like, but as any major fighting community the Smash scene should embrace the opportunity they have in adapting to something new, as long as that something isn't fundamentally flawed. Brawl did have a lot of those fundamental flaws that served to exacerbate the viability of how interesting it would be to put a game like Smash Bros on the spotlight. Despite that though, there's no denying it was a competitive game because the community stayed active and dedicated. The dividing line was last year when this community was finally presented a choice which game they wanted to represent, and Melee perhaps presented those qualities more reliably in spite of Brawl's lasting impact.

I rewatched the Smash Invitational Grand Finals recently after coming off of the EVO high and to be honest I felt a lot better about it than I was on my initial viewing, mainly because it's clear the presentation in that context was heavily reliant on being an exhibition and using rulesets that better accommodated a viewing platform that wasn't exclusively competitive, but also because the game play maneuvers exhibited by the top two players made the game look fast, fluid and fun. It honestly to me felt close to an ideal speed of Smash where it's fast enough to be exciting but still balanced enough that most people will get a read on the abilities everyone exhibits. And this was even ignoring the fact that at that point in time, neither of the two characters had any experience with the game what-so-ever. At that point in the game I just appreciated how the characters would move, and that alone provided an exhilarating experience starting off, with the only thing bogging matters down being some unsure approaches on account of the players. That's going to grow to become less of an issue in due time.

But speed isn't everything and there's a lot left to swallow. Speed wasn't the only thing that made Melee the lasting game it was, and even accounting for that, the fact is that Melee does not have to be the end-all, be-all. Better things can be done with Smash. It's not necessarily likely that Smash 4 will be that, but it has every chance to be just as engaging. Can there be a way to guarantee the game has a consistent flow to it? Can it condone a solid approach to offense that leaves the players and viewers with a sense of awe? I think these are important questions to ask the game as a whole rather than simply looking at the pieces themselves of what made some nuances shine brighter in its predecessors, as Smash 4 will have a whole new set of nuances.

All I know is the transition period is obviously going to be rough no matter which way you slice it, and a lot of questions will be presented (personally I'm curious as to how Palutena will be treated competitively). But the Smash community has never been in a better position right now to let a new game take the spotlight in a huge way. It's not going to be Melee, but it certainly won't be Brawl either, and hopefully the glaring shortcomings of Brawl have all been handled that can give us a balanced game that can be enjoyed for the new takes and varied experiences.

Or we can all just fight to death.

This is a lovely post that isn't getting the recognition it deserves. Thank you for this.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

Post-documentary hype has brought on a huge influx of Smashers. Most of whom are gearing up for Smash 4. Whether Smash 4 is accepted competitively or not it will be backed heavily. About 6 months pass launch, Melee enthusiasts will drop from the game. There will still be a huge following that could keep this game popular and in many National tournaments. If the game is what the competitors look for then all is good. Melee will still remain popular no matter what. It's what really skyrocketed the Smash community so the love will always be there. A lot of people have made premature statements that this game can't match up to Melee. Let's see what happens when the game releases.

But... It's not really about matching up to Melee. It's about matching up to the requirements of an exciting competitive game both as a player and a viewer. Smash 4 may be different than Melee but could very well employ its own mechanics and gameplay that allow it to be competitive in an excitingly different way

 

[pizzapie7]

So...when people argue that Melee was a happy accident because it wasn't intended that eventually the meta-game would exploit the techniques found, Sakurai's design intentions don't matter.

Yet when you argue that Brawl failed to be competitive due to lack of proper & informed knowledge of the actual scene, Sakurai's design intention is all of the sudden a valid point?

Melee was not designed to be a competitive game.
Brawl was designed to not be a competitive game.

 

[Senario]

Post-documentary hype has brought on a huge influx of Smashers. Most of whom are gearing up for Smash 4. Whether Smash 4 is accepted competitively or not it will be backed heavily. About 6 months pass launch, Melee enthusiasts will drop from the game. There will still be a huge following that could keep this game popular and in many National tournaments. If the game is what the competitors look for then all is good. Melee will still remain popular no matter what. It's what really skyrocketed the Smash community so the love will always be there. A lot of people have made premature statements that this game can't match up to Melee. Let's see what happens when the game releases.

But... It's not really about matching up to Melee. It's about matching up to the requirements of an exciting competitive game both as a player and a viewer. Smash 4 may be different than Melee but could very well employ its own mechanics and gameplay that allow it to be competitive in an excitingly different way

I don't like how you say Melee enthusiasts will drop the game. It isn't like they can't play both games, I will drop it only if it isn't competitive but if it is there is no reason I can't play both games since I would have both games. The way I see it, Melee will always be considered the best competitively. What matters is that the new game is "competitive enough" sort of like Street Fighter 4 Ultra/UMVC3 so that the new version can be accepted over an older version. Because lets be honest, Street Fighter 2 and MvC2 were some of the best and possibly the best fighting games for each of their respective series. It is just that a newer game has come out and the community accepts the new game as one that is good competitively.

 

[SmashChu]

The above post is an example of not being good for the conversation of balance in the game. Or blaming the players for what was essentially a restriction placed on them from the most basic of gameplay elements.

What you are suggesting is everybody dropping a game that is in competitive play based on its merits and adopting a new game that may or may not have the foundation for competitive play. A lot of competitive players love smash but they are not willing to follow on blind loyalty.

There is so much wrong with this post.

First, Brawl was competitively viable. SSB4 is competitively viable. The only requirement is that you can compete and someone wants to watch you do it. Being "more competitive" is not what is required or even important. The best competitive game, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, isn't played anymore.

Second, the players are 100% to blame. The game is an inanimate object so it can't do anything. The support of Brawl is 100% a result of the players. Brawl's issues were the communities issues. SSB4 will live and die by the community, not the game. Of course, it doesn't matter because the zealots will hate it for not being Melee, and the community listens to whatever the zealots say.

You last statement is ironic, because the community has blind loyalty to Melee. My post was "Let Melee die off and support the new game" and somehow that was an issue for people. Note that Smash is the ONLY community with this problem. Compare this to Starcraft, which had it's game be a national sport, and it still shifted to Starcraft 2. I fail to see how not playing a 13 year old game at tournaments and having the brand new one being the main event be an issue. It's an issue because the community has blind loyalty to Melee and will ignore everything wrong to it.

Melee zealots only want to play Melee. But SSB4 has the potential to make the game bigger than any other fighting game out there. However, trying to force in Melee will destroy the game competitively and will tell Nintendo NOT to make games for the community because they only want Melee. This is boom or bust.

 

[pizzapie7]

Second, the players are 100% to blame.

Yes, blame the consumers for not wanting a product they don't like.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Melee was not designed to be a competitive game.
Brawl was designed to not be a competitive game.

And yet that still doesn't stop it from being one regardless, you're still using design intent as a keypoint despite neglecting it when used against you, so what exactly is your point?

 

[greenluigiman2]

In my opinion, Smash 4's competitive scene will be mostly driven by multi-game players like Mew2King and ZeRo who want to get the best out if the game. Brawl competitive players will adapt pretty easily, which means that a good chunk of the scene is pretty much pre-determined. As far as Melee players go, I think they'll accept the game more than they did Brawl. We'll see a few of the big name Melee players at least, especially if the character they use in Melee feels similar enough to the Melee version. I could see a lot of Mario, Pikachu and Sheik mainers playing Smash 4.

It will also be driven by brand new competitive players who are specifically waiting for Smash 4 to join the scene. Some people are only just starting to learn about competitive Smash and want to get into it, but feel it's too late for them to join the scenes of the previous games. That's somewhat the camp I'm in. I respect the competitive scenes of the previous games, but the only scene I want to become part of is the Smash 4 scene.

 

[pizzapie7]

And yet that still doesn't stop it from being one regardless, you're still using design intent as a keypoint despite neglecting it when used against you, so what exactly is your point?

Melee was built when the scene was an unknown quantity. It didn't exist. Making the game competitive was a non-issue. It wasn't designed to be a competitive game, but it wasn't designed to be uncompetitive either. It was designed neutrally. It was all a happy accident. Contrast with Brawl, which was built to level the playing field. Sakurai has said multiple times he wants his game to be enjoyed by all, and that everyone should deserve a shot. The game was built to be uncompetitive. Are you not seeing the difference here? Intentions don't matter. Sakurai didn't intentionally make Melee competitive. He did intentionally make Brawl less competitive, un competitive, whichever word you want to use.

And cut the "lack of proper knowledge yadda yadda I know more than you" bull****. It does nothing for your argument and just makes you look like an ass. I played Brawl competitively. I can just admit that Brawl has flaws, major ones, that can't be overlooked when looking at it competitively.

 

[ScottyWK]

First, Brawl was competitively viable. SSB4 is competitively viable. The only requirement is that you can compete and someone wants to watch you do it. Being "more competitive" is not what is required or even important. The best competitive game, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, isn't played anymore.

I almost stopped reading at your first sentence. But you basically shot yourself in the foot by saying all you need is competition and someone who wants to watch. Brawl's physics make it a defensive game, which made competitive people not only not want to play it, but also not want to watch it. People got burned out of watching campy shield-grab games all the time, so it died quickly.

Second, the players are 100% to blame. The game is an inanimate object so it can't do anything. The support of Brawl is 100% a result of the players. Brawl's issues were the communities issues. SSB4 will live and die by the community, not the game. Of course, it doesn't matter because the zealots will hate it for not being Melee, and the community listens to whatever the zealots say.

Like pizzapie said...blame the consumers for not wanting to play an inferior product. K.

You last statement is ironic, because the community has blind loyalty to Melee. My post was "Let Melee die off and support the new game" and somehow that was an issue for people. Note that Smash is the ONLY community with this problem. Compare this to Starcraft, which had it's game be a national sport, and it still shifted to Starcraft 2. I fail to see how not playing a 13 year old game at tournaments and having the brand new one being the main event be an issue. It's an issue because the community has blind loyalty to Melee and will ignore everything wrong to it.

It's hardly blind loyalty. This post makes it seem like you have no idea why many people prefer Melee over Brawl, and it makes it seem like you are totally unaware of the extreme differences between the 2 games competitively. It's not really worth listing all of them now, because I really thought it was common knowledge. But let me assure you, it is FAR from blind loyalty.

Melee zealots only want to play Melee. But SSB4 has the potential to make the game bigger than any other fighting game out there. However, trying to force in Melee will destroy the game competitively and will tell Nintendo NOT to make games for the community because they only want Melee. This is boom or bust.

The only way Smash 4 will be "destroyed competitively" is if Sakurai designs the game with too many similarities to Brawl in terms of physics and gameplay. If Smash 4 contains the most BASIC necessities to give it competitive life (longer hitstun, L-canceling, faster falling/ground speed), then it will be accepted alongside Melee.

 

[Morbi]

I almost stopped reading at your first sentence. But you basically shot yourself in the foot by saying all you need is competition and someone who wants to watch. Brawl's physics make it a defensive game, which made competitive people not only not want to play it, but also not want to watch it. People got burned out of watching campy shield-grab games all the time, so it died quickly.


Like pizzapie said...blame the consumers for not wanting to play an inferior product. K.


It's hardly blind loyalty. This post makes it seem like you have no idea why many people prefer Melee over Brawl, and it makes it seem like you are totally unaware of the extreme differences between the 2 games competitively. It's not really worth listing all of them now, because I really thought it was common knowledge. But let me assure you, it is FAR from blind loyalty.


The only way Smash 4 will be "destroyed competitively" is if Sakurai designs the game with too many similarities to Brawl in terms of physics and gameplay. If Smash 4 contains the most BASIC necessities to give it competitive life (longer hitstun, L-canceling, faster falling/ground speed), then it will be accepted alongside Melee.

Brawl was/is/will always be competitively viable.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/competitive
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

 

[ScottyWK]

Brawl was/is/will always be competitively viable.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/competitive
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

By definition, sure. Way to play semantics. But competitively viable by community standard? No.

 

[Morbi]

By definition, sure. Way to play semantics. But competitively viable by community standard? No.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.
http://smashboards.com/rankings/brawl/league/events

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

It will also be driven by brand new competitive players who are specifically waiting for Smash 4 to join the scene. Some people are only just starting to learn about competitive Smash and want to get into it, but feel it's too late for them to join the scenes of the previous games. That's somewhat the camp I'm in. I respect the competitive scenes of the previous games, but the only scene I want to become part of is the Smash 4 scene.

I'm in the same boat. I played Smash from the beginning but then got away from it. I've never been a part of the competitive scene but now I'm very interested. It's kind of an awkward position because the surge in Melee makes me want to get great at that game, but the idea of starting fresh and growing with the community with Smash 4 makes me want to go hard for that. In the end I'll probably play tons of Melee to hold me over till Smash 4 then make that my game of choice in tournaments

 

[SpeedBoost]

Smash 4 could maybe if it is not a one trick pony when it is out. I have a feeling though Nintendo REALLY wants us to move on to Smash 4. I wonder if they will stop supporting us if we decide not too, it just seems odd they decide to get on our good side right when Smash 4 is nearing to it's release... Just a theory though.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

I don't like how you say Melee enthusiasts will drop the game. It isn't like they can't play both games, I will drop it only if it isn't competitive but if it is there is no reason I can't play both games since I would have both games. The way I see it, Melee will always be considered the best competitively. What matters is that the new game is "competitive enough" sort of like Street Fighter 4 Ultra/UMVC3 so that the new version can be accepted over an older version. Because lets be honest, Street Fighter 2 and MvC2 were some of the best and possibly the best fighting games for each of their respective series. It is just that a newer game has come out and the community accepts the new game as one that is good competitively.

I wasn't trying to say Melee enthusiasts will drop the game regardless. If the game meets the standards of the community then I have no doubt Melee people will play both. If it doesn't then a few Melee people will continue to play it. Most will probably go back

 

[JV5Chris]

The best competitive game, Street Fighter 2 Turbo, isn't played anymore.

It's only one of the largest side tournaments at EVO.

The Melee zealots only want to play Melee. But SSB4 has the potential to make the game bigger than any other fighting game out there. However, trying to force in Melee will destroy the game competitively and will tell Nintendo NOT to make games for the community because they only want Melee. This is boom or bust.

Boom or bust? So Nintendo surely must be in the wrong to acknowledge, support, and celebrate the current members of the Melee community, right? If their gameplay preferences are that toxic to Smash 4 and the franchise, what's going on? Why is Nintendo not taking this as gravely as you are?

 

[Renji64]

Want ppl to drop melee make a hype good game that is fun to watch and has options.