small characters and what to do?

[misterbee180]

People who play falcon understand falcon's ability to fight characters around his size. Most of falcon's moves allow him to hit anything around his height from a short jump allowing falcon to be played as quite an offensive character in these sort of match ups.

I often find my self telling my opponents that while snake may be strong, he is of no concern to me when compared to someone small. In fact, I created this thread because of this very problem which inhibits many falcon players to take control of a battle when facing smaller characters, often times leading to a loss.

As it is right now, 16 out of brawls 38 characters are in the acceptable height range for falcon to attack from a short jump. This means that 22 characters are too small for falcon to hit consistently and this, in turn, posses a major threat to falcon players.

To list a few: Olimar, Pikachu, toon link, squritle, ivysaure, luigi, mario, lucario, wario,... the list goes on and on and on. The first three are huge tournament favorites, one because of their ability to spam moves and two because of their natural ability to not get hit.

So I open this forum to anything intelligent that any one can come up w/ to deal with characters of this nature. I know we've all faced it and I know we all hate it. Lastly, I understand that we all ready have an individual character match up page, however, I feel this is less about individual characters and more about the common trait of size.

Lets find a solution to this aggravating problem once and for all!

 

[Wogrim]

First, how can you forget MK, and second, you've got some problems if you can't hit Luigi, Mario, and Lucario. They're not that short.

On many of them you can outrange them with tilts and UAir, so just avoid approaching them in the air if you can't get the timing down (it is possible to hit them all though).

 

[SmashBrother2008]

No, we should include MetaKnight. and the only characters that I find really troubling in size are Captain Olimar, Pikachu and Squirtle. Some tilts are usually a nice way to handle things.

 

[Ayaz18]

o.k the only real succesful way to honestly beat MK, and small characters in general is to abuse Falcon kick, Falcon dive, and Uair then to finish a fmash or dsmash.

I know it sounds scrubish but it's the only way I can beat MK and small characters, to get safe damage then use a powerful smash before they hurt you more

 

[DoB04]

i agree with ayaz, but also add up tilt to his arsenal of killing moves, since its works great, olimar's weakness is his recovery, so keep that in mind always, edgehog him whenever you need to (kinda cheap, but who cares lol) and for the others, just fight lika ayaz said :/

 

[misterbee180]

Unfortunatly this game seems to think that a falcon kick = power of a thuder bolt or a fire ball or any stupid small projectile except for the rare case of pikmen... unless it's purple, in which case you get hit. My friend plays as pikachu now and I find that I have quite the problem of hitting him unless I trick him into attacking and attack after his attack is over, which is not really my style of play. I'll try adding in a little more b moves and see where that gets me... hopefully he doesn't just dodge - upsmash

 

[IcantWin]

Falcon, along with most other characters, can lead a wonderful game as long as the player can keep one thing in mind: Adaptation.

Though Brawl is mainly composed of one on one matches that are determined via skill, play style, and even the character they use. This is more so the core of all Brawl games, match ups, counter picks, etc. can determine the outcome of a match, (MK vs. Ganondorf, lol?) So what can we do? Look at your character as a tool box, what utilities do they hold that can tilt (hint hint) the match to your advantage. So lets take a look at some mock matches I've concocted. (None of which are pure fact, just theory.)

Before we discuss I'd like to have some people play some friendlies or test these theories by facing a CPU, yea its basic, but it's only to highlight the size comparisons.
Okay let's get to it!:::

C.Falcon vs. Donkey Kong:

So look at the names and get a good idea of who you're playing, their skill level, and what to expect.
- Falcon has the advantage of fighting a larger than life character here, enabling use of jabs, possibility of air combos, and a fat character that Falcon can actually see through that black visor of his.
- The overall game might consist of close combat that will enable you to take advantage of Falcon's speed (**** YOU SONIC WE'RE FASTER)
- - -
C.Falcon vs. Olimar (or) Kirby
- Wow these little buggers are small, so how can we adapt, fast jabs will work but how can we adapt to fighting something so puny?

- My first general thought is to utilize my f-tilt in the downward swing, using a sweeping kick instead of a full forward tilt, which might not potentially hit them. U-tilt can work as its killing potential is significantly increased on a smaller, lighter character that will get stuck between Falcons foot, Crotch, and the ground they stand.
- Full frontal/Large hitbox moves such as Falcon Punch (meh I know), Raptor Boost, Falcon Kick, and the oh-so good Falcon Dive that we don't usually see in a match as being an offensive move, (even on stages w.out the platforms this still works great, I'm sure most of you know!)


So other than the basic facts that we can look at, how can we get around our disadvantage? We can adapt, we can look at how our opponent plays, and punish them with our own counter style, even if it means switching our play style after the first match, (more so in the middle of it).

I hope some of this helps, all theory, but Brawl is more than just character match ups, its about adaptation too!

WITH LOVE, GRACE OF THE FACLON NIPPLES
- Dom

 

[i.E.]

Originally Posted by ICantWin:
C.Falcon vs. Donkey Kong

Omg...you're bringing back terrible memories man....

lol I HATE...DK. So much. His Dtilt>>>*you trip*>>>Fsmash is so stupidly good : /. In fact, so many of his tilts **** Falcon. Ugh...it pisses me off lol.

stupid monkey...

 

[SmashBrother2008]

- Full frontal/Large hitbox moves such as the oh-so good Falcon Dive that we don't usually see in a match as being an offensive move.

And how about that dashing Falcon Dive? You can latch on to thier face from quite a distance....

 

[Wogrim]

And how about that dashing Falcon Dive? You can latch on to thier face from quite a distance....

It'll work on shieldgrabbers but since a lot of the time opponents will spotdodge or roll Falcon Dive is usually not too reliable as an attack unless you catch someone after a spotdodge/roll/airdodge or during a move that it outprioritizes.

 

[legion598]

the way i solve this problem is by setting up everything down throw and raptor boost are great set ups and a handy trick for landing knees on shorties is to run and short hop backwards so u do a back flip very close to the ground then when u throw out the knee it should come out at a height that will hit any character

 

[highandmightyjoe]

My brother plays MK and Pokemon Trainer so I fight alot of these. First of all yes it is stupid how many short characters there are. In Melee they where annoying but the only ones really short enough to be a problem where Jiggs, Pika, Kirby, and G&W, and you didn't see many players using them. In Brawl, like half the cast is two feet tall or shorter.

That said once you get used to it it isn't that bad. In the air its no problem at all Uair works just as easily on any size character in the air. The ground game is the problem. Falcons jab is great but won't hit many of them. His Ftilt should be angled down, and yes his Utilt is very good as a kill. My main KO against short characters though is Dsmash. And yes, most of his specials, Raptor Boost and Falcon Kick especially, are very effective against short characters.

 

[chewyy]

In Melee they where annoying but the only ones really short enough to be a problem where Jiggs, Pika, Kirby, and G&W, and you didn't see many players using them. .

Umm, jiggs was pretty common IMO.

Okay, I may be wrong on a lot of points, so let me know if I am, I want to make my falcon better.
anyway, yeah for shorties, I don't really play THAT differently. Falcon's jab is amazing, probably use it way too much, but jab-jab-grab is too good. Or jab-jab-mindgames. But personally, I don't think you would NEED to play that differently against shorter characters just because they are short. Sure they are harder to hit with the knee, but knees are tough to land anyway.

Anyway, other than jabbing, the only thing I could say is to try to keep them in the air and pressure them into making mistakes, again nothing specific for small characters.

Before we discuss I'd like to have some people play some friendlies or test these theories by facing a CPU, yea its basic, but it's only to highlight the size comparisons.
Okay let's get to it!:::

C.Falcon vs. Donkey Kong:

So look at the names and get a good idea of who you're playing, their skill level, and what to expect.
- Falcon has the advantage of fighting a larger than life character here, enabling use of jabs, possibility of air combos, and a fat character that Falcon can actually see through that black visor of his.
- The overall game might consist of close combat that will enable you to take advantage of Falcon's speed (**** YOU SONIC WE'RE FASTER)
- - -

I played against my friend's DK and there really weren't that many more air combos (they can be air-dodged if read correctly) and the only things that worked for me close range-wise were jabs and grabs. Any tilt was punished a bunch of the time.

 

[IcantWin]

I played against my friend's DK and there really weren't that many more air combos (they can be air-dodged if read correctly) and the only things that worked for me close range-wise were jabs and grabs. Any tilt was punished a bunch of the time.

Yea, the only beefy character I could think of at the time was DK >.<;;

Air combos vs. someone who can air dodge correctly will definitely put some hut on your game, but before you can be punished, you can punish them using jabs, which is much easier since they're much larger. This is all circumstantial though.

 

[Wogrim]

For the really short characters, infinite jabs' top hits won't hit them if they're on the ground, or if they're in the air the bottom one won't hit. This allows them to throw in moves between jabs that most other characters can't, so infinite jabs is usually a pretty bad idea against them.

 

[SmashBrother2008]

It's tough, but if you can keep yourself moving in the air the same direction your opponent is, you can simply wait until the airdodge is finished and throw out a Fair, Nair or Falcon Kick. This is extremely hard to do since it's hard to predict were they will "flow" to in the air. Just keep up using Falcon's high airspeed.

 

[Wogrim]

It's tough, but if you can keep yourself moving in the air the same direction your opponent is, you can simply wait until the airdodge is finished and throw out a Fair, Nair or Falcon Kick. This is extremely hard to do since it's hard to predict were they will "flow" to in the air. Just keep up using Falcon's high airspeed.

That's something you can do with all characters, although I don't time my jumps properly to fall with them so I don't use it. It's better for big characters because you're more likely to be in Knee position after the dodge.

 

[Tenki]

o.k the only real succesful way to honestly beat MK, and small characters in general is to abuse Falcon kick, Falcon dive, and Uair then to finish a fmash or dsmash.

I know it sounds scrubish but it's the only way I can beat MK and small characters, to get safe damage then use a powerful smash before they hurt you more

lmao, I tried that on an MK (he random'd) earlier and it worked.

Guys, don't forget D-tilt. It's still as effective as it is on tall chars lol.

Oh, and grabs.

 

[Samuelson]

I like using Utilt on small characters but thats just me.

 

[Tenki]

I like using Utilt on small characters but thats just me.

They tend to be lighter, right?

`.`; since it's a pain to hit them most of the time, I tend to save U-tilt for the kill, if not a mindgame'd F-smash.

 

[Ayaz18]

lmao, I tried that on an MK (he random'd) earlier and it worked.

Guys, don't forget D-tilt. It's still as effective as it is on tall chars lol.

Oh, and grabs.

glad to see it worked, it's not the coolest match to watch but it's pretty effective

 

[ChibiPichu]

Its not easy, but using all the moves that hit those short characters and making sure that the moves you have to aim slighly or use differently get them should put you up on their level...
Specifically I would try to use any of those moves that do hit them (of course I've said that) and try to use more of the different combos of Falcon Kick (my favorite is still the 15% attack in the short abbreviated jump, can't do much besides that because they are harder to hit going higher in the air and seem to dodge too easily)... and might throw in a couple more Falcon Paunches out of frustration against the bannan thrower... and of course anything I can do to get them in the air with my dash grab (prays)