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Guide Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder (NTSC)

Simna ibn Sind

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NOTICE: I have decided to discontinue updating the Advanced section of this guide in this post. All updates to the Advanced section will be in future posts. Please check later posts for updates. Read on.


IMPORTANT: This is a NTSC guide. Many techniques such as the PK Thunder Barrier do not work in the PAL version. It should also be noted that the PK Thunder Barrier does not work in the NTSC version while in training mode(why? who knows).

--WARNING--
If you don't feel right playing Ness you should probably ignore this. PK Thunder is among attacks that require the most practice in all of SSBM because mistakes made using it will most likely lead to you being severely punished...and you will make mistakes. Practice the **** out of this attack.

--BASICS--
PK Thunder is Ness' up+B. I'd explain what it looks like, but there is no mistaking it with Ness' other moves. PK Thunder's direction can be manipulated using the control stick. An opponent hit by a PK Thunder will receive 7-9% damage. Ness' recovery involves directing the PK Thunder to hit hisself, turning him into a projectile. An opponent hit by this attack will receive around 25% damage(I will call it PK Thunder2).

PK Thunder2 Lag Time/Distance: This ammount of time it takes for the PK Thunder to get around and hit you is roughly the same as the charge time on Fox's up+B(depending on where you are trying to hit yourself. There is a small recovery lag if PK Thunder2 ends with Ness on the ground. If it ends in the air Ness will fall down but will not have the same recover animation. The distance of PK Thunder2 can be changed using the environment. It can be shorter than Ness' WD(using floor traction) and reach a max distance that is equal to Fox's up+B.

--ADVANCED--
Look! It's Ness' learning curve!

Aiming PK Thunder2: PK Thunder2 can be aimed in ANY direction on the 2-D plane. While on the ground you can change the distance of PK Thunder2 by hitting yourself from different angles. A shot directly behind you(parallel to the stage) will give you maximum distance. A shot angled from below will give a small ammount of air time. Angling the shot from above will make the distance shorter and shorter(depending on the angle) until Ness simply knocks himself down.

Changing Directions of PK Thunder2: PK Thunder2 will give to the arena. Ness will change direction if fired into a slope or curve in the arena.

PK Thunder Barrier(PKTB): This term is being used to describe any time when Ness' flight/fall distance is cancelled by hitting a PK Thunder. Timing PK Thunder correctly on recovery can protect Ness from meteor smashes and spikes by turning the PK Thunder into a net that will catch Ness as he falls(and deal damage to him). Use the head of PK Thunder for the best effect.

PK Thunder Barrier Counter(PKTBC): PKTB can also used to guard against smash attacks and let's you abuse an opponent's lag time. As Marth is considered a bane for Ness, I will use his FSmash as an example here. Marth's FSmash starts above Marth then swings down to the ground and is strongest as a tipper hit. The speed of this attack combined with Ness' height makes a PKTBC possible, but you have to be quick to react(very quick). Marth is about to tipper you with his FSmash! As soon as you see it, fire a PK Thunder. Marth's attack will hit you, but you won't move anywhere. You will be on the ground and ready to abuse the after lag of Marth's FSmash. CAUTION! This attack is best used to land a finishing hit/combo only! You still take damage from the attack and from the PK Thunder, so if you can, avoid the attack unless you are sure the hit/combo you land as a counter will kill your opponent. Use the tail of PK Thunder for the best effect.

Tail-Whipping(Ground): Using PK Thunder to tail-whip a grounded opponent is dangerous and is only useful when perfected. This should be used to stun your opponent, slow his/her advance and at higher %s set up for a combo. There are many methods of getting the tail of PK Thunder to hit the opponent. Find the one that works best for you and practice. TAIL-WHIPPING A GROUNDED OPPONENT SHOULD ALWAYS END WITH THE HEAD HITTING THE OPPONENT!

Tail-Whipping(Air): Using PK Thunder to tail-whip an airborne opponent is not nearly as dangerous as tail-whipping a grounded oppoenent, but just the same it has little use unless perfected. Using this while an opponent is above you stuns that opponent and while keeping him/her airborne, but low enough to hold in a combo. Tail-Whipping an airborne opponent is best put to use as an edgeguard. A recovering opponent loses upward distance when hit by PK Thunder's tail and tail-whipping a recovering opponent that is level with the ledge 3 times will kill nearly any opponent(Fast-fallers will die after 2 tail-whips). A second option is the tail-whip a recovering opponent twice then hit them with the head of PK Thunder. This drops them down and pops them back up(This is a setup technique that should be followed up with whatever edgeguard attack).

PK Thunder2 False Edgeguard(PK2FE): This is a very very difficult and extremely risky PK Thunder manipulation. It is almost as hard as the PKTBC. To use this you must not only have perfect control of your PK Thunder but you must know your opponent's third jump(where applicable) just as well. While your opponent is recovering(at about its second jump) fire a PK Thunder and move it around your opponent. DO NOT HIT THEM! Use the PK Thunder to block their recovery options. Leave a window of recovery open so they can recover and land directly behind you(circling and figure-eights work). As soon as they take the bait aim your PK Thunder at yourself. If done correctly you will hit your opponent with a PK Thunder2 just before their feet hit the ground. If your opponent hit the PK Thunder instead of landing behind you then simply follow up with whatever edgegaurd. Things to watch out for: Getting pushed off the stage as your opponent lands(space better), hookshots, grapple beams, jigglypuff. This does work on Peach, but only under hard2reach circumstances...and plz, don't waste this on Falco...his recovery is so bad as it is. Easiest to use on: Fox, C. Falcon, and Ganondorf.

PK Thunder Reverse Edgeguard(PKTRE): I saved the hardest for last. This one wins. I'd say you have to be lucky to use it if I didn't believe that any ability in the game can be mastered(I'm gonna perfect this even if its the last thing I do). Don't worry, it does work. Everyone knows that a good Ness player will never get knocked off the edge(^_^), but for the rest of the Ness players out there getting knocked off is **** because people like to edgeguard him. This one is for you. When you are off the edge and need to use PK Thunder2 to get recover your opponent should be edgeguarding you. When they jump out to get you as soon as they are close to you fire your PK Thunder. WARNING! Hard Part: Tail-whip your opponent once before hitting yourself. After you have whipped your opponent you have 3 options: sweetspot the edge(if your opponent cant make it all the way back then they're done), get to the stage(then edgeguard them as they recover), or BLAST THEM TO ****!(aim your PK Thunder2 into their recovery path and intercept, but make sure this path allow u to get back). This does work, but is the most difficult and most risky of all PK Thunder and probably Ness' and probably any ability in the game. If this fails and your opponent lands a hit then try your hardest to pull off a PKTB. If the head of your PK Thunder hits the opponent, kiss your *** goddbye. Anyone who masters this has my utmost respect as a Ness player.

What's left:
--TEAM TACTICS--

--A PARALLEL--

--LAST WORDS--

Next Update: Soon!

--CREDITS--
Simna ibn Sind's Guide to PK Thunder (click for video)
Started: December 11, 2004 3:07am
Last Update: January 30, 2005 4:25pm

Thanks a lot to VilNess and dan smith for convincing me to write this and for their other contributions to this guide.

For more info on Ness and info on PK Thunder in tandem with other attacks see NESSBOUNDER'S Nesstastic Ness Guide.
 

dan smith

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Add mo'

You should include the fact that PK Thunder2 is capable of going on curves or changing direction depending on what you hit, like the side of a level. Also put in basic PK Thunder damage %s and life time.
 

Kirby_M@ster

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Uh, it's okay, but you shouldn't post your guides or anything untill they have some content. The only thing that could be helpful there was the damage percentage.

I'll keep checking back, and comment again once you add the actual "guide" part.
 

Kirby_M@ster

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Hm.... well the PK Thunder Barrier Counter (which really needs a new name) was sort of interesting, but I bet it's hard to find a good use for it, when Ground dodging, rolling, or wavedashing would be so much better.

Still, the guide needs a lot more to be helpful.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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Yeah, its still not finished.

About the PKTBC...like i said its only recommended for landing a finishing blow...otherwise you take too much dmg just for the chance to land a sure hit.

After the Advanced section is done I'm gonna do a Team Tactics section.
 

ender

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I think it shouldn't be called the PKTBC, but now be the PKZootematix.
 

VilNess

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Hey simna about your Ness...

I checked your teamscape vid and I think you have a good and very prestige Ness.

You are good at choosing right kind of move for different situations and you mix up your moves quite much too. That´s a +

I´d like to see you use more WaveDashing though if you think it´s worth using, I do.

Oh and you are too vulnerable to "answer the phone" mindgame ;)

I didn´t understand that why did you try to recover so early with PK thudner while you still had your 2nd jump left.... I could be mistaken too.

edit: watched your vid again. You should remember to wriggle yourself out of the tumbling animation when you get knocked up.
oh and after looking it again I noticed you did use your 2nd jump when you didn´t recover. I usually try to keep distance when I 2nd jump to not get interrupted but it can be hard when there are 2 other opponents
 

dan smith

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Trapping...

I have never ever heard of using PK Thunder to prevent knockback.

It makes a ton of sense...

We could call it Thunder Netting.

Because you send up a PK Thunder and it acts as a net, you hit it and it allows you to recover faster. I kind of like the sound of "netting".

Or Trapping?

Why are they called booby traps?

Booby??

Team tactics: Thunder your teamate. You hit them to save them from falling to their doom, in case they can't make it back, the hit will give them back their triple jump.

Maybe it shouldn't be called Netting...that sounds kind of confusing. How about we call it Rigging? Or...Fragging?....Zapping?

EDIT: I made my post less confusing.
 

Kirby_M@ster

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Team tactics: Net your teamate. You Net them to save them from falling to their doom, in case they can't make it back, the Net will give them back their triple jump.
I thought you were talking about what he was saying about stopping Marth's tippers, not a known and used team tactic.

But yeah, that pk-thunder tech. to regain a teammate's jump is well known, and very dangerous to the user...
 

VilNess

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You should use uairs or fairs to help your teammate, since if you start thundering someone can come knock you away... well unless you jump out and Net someone like falco and recover at the sime time... might work but I´d rather uair.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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Sorry4being slow&lazy, but dont worry...i'll update it and stuff

I'm going to give only small mention on pkthundering a recovering opponent because that is an obvious teamtactic that can be used be most characters anyway.
 

Who Am I???

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WOW!

This is nice. I really like it.REALLY. Too bad I only have lvl 9's to play and they dont jump out at you....

Well ill learn these as i can....

other words GREAT JOB
 

dan smith

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Netting...stupid, trapping....stupid

Just cause Thundering an teamate who is off the stage is an obvious tactic dosen't mean it shouldn't be in the guide...it would be stupid not to have it.

Fairing and Uairing a teamate is good and all...but not really practical. The thunder can get into more dangerous situations...and if you jump off yourself you have to worry about DYING because when you try and recover somebody will get hit by your PK Thunder.

I say Thundering them is better....unless they are close to the stage...in which case they don't really need that much help.

The danger is Thundering them....is relavent, choose your timing and placement well. Those are the only things you can do.

The names I came up with were all stupid, it should be called derflecting. A mixture of Thunder and Deflect.

How about we call it the layup? Like in basketball? Or the serve...like in tennis.

If you like any of these...just say so.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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Im gonna include include it^_^. I had originally planned to make the team tactics section just for offensive strategies, but we i may as well do defensive too.
 

VilNess

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Originally posted by dan smith
Fairing and Uairing a teamate is good and all...but not really practical. The thunder can get into more dangerous situations...and if you jump off yourself you have to worry about DYING because when you try and recover somebody will get hit by your PK Thunder.

I say Thundering them is better....unless they are close to the stage...in which case they don't really need that much help.

The danger is Thundering them....is relavent, choose your timing and placement well. Those are the only things you can do.

No... You can´t just thunder them. What do expect? wait for your enemies to save your buddy and then hit you?
thundering leaves you vulnerable. Jumping out there and fairing (towards the stage and NOT away from it) helps them get distance and doesn´t leave you as vulnerable.

I guess if you like you like see both your enemies and your ally recover then I assume you could thunder...
 

VilNess

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HOLY CRAP!

OMG! AT LAST! AT LAST I SUCCEEDED IN IT!
I CROSSED BATTLEFIELD BELOW THE STAGE! YYYHEAAAHH!!


whew... no really I was very excited because after trying it for 1/2 hour I only got so close and thought It was impossible... but the trick is here:
1st: Jump away from stage and face away from it.
2nd: Start DI:ing towards the center off the stage so your head "hits" the edge when you go below the stage. Naturally, keep DIng towards the other ledge
3rd: doublejump so you don´t get stuck in the middle place with the orb in it (it´s very easy to do the doublejump too early)
4rd. You should be a bit in the other side off the stage where your head is a bit below the little sting on the other side off the orb.
Now here comes the hard part: Shoot PKthunder And start DI´n it first towards the ledge you are aiming for and naturally start aiming it below you.
5rd: This is the last and the hardest part of it all... Shoot yourself to the sting looking thing, which is actually a RAMP! If you do it correctly you will first go about 90 degrees up and then continue your direction a bit like in Final Destination. If you mess up even a bit you will most likely bounce off the ramp/ceiling and fall away...
But if you succeed (I have already 4 times) then... Excellent!


Note that this trick is Completely Useless... Howerever, If you are Johnny like me and like exploring new things you will probably want to master this! I Do!
And if you ever succeed edgehogging somebody with this trick you will be considered the coolest SSBM player of all time. No doubt about it.

Dan, I think your enemy has to be enough far away for not him to able to punish you... thought If you tailwhip someone and thunder your ally that might be something :D
edit: Dan btw. I got those Simna Vids from DC++ ... I am thinking to put up my own vids there soon too.. I just gotta turn the into Mpg from VHS...


Simna: will you include thunderslides, pointblank hits, Floorblasts and so on to this guide? I think they´re good to know!
 

dan smith

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It's fun gettin' into trouble!

LazyA$$ *****...

I can shoot lasers out of my eyes.

<_< -- -- -- -- -- X_X

And kill people dead!!!

I need to go...
 

Thomas Tipman

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PKTB and PKTBC seem like things that will happen by mistake, i mean if you can really time it so you can do these moves they why not just block or counter attack?

PK2FE just seems risky and pointless, if you are edge gaurding someone and you at the ledge bair is so much simpler and safer than PK2FE.


PKTRE sounds like it can possibly work but then again if you are trying to tail whip the opponent and get them with the blast they would have probably hit you after the tail whip.

the best option i can see for using ness' PKT is recovery and tailwhipping (edge guard and air), unless your trying to be fancy none of this stuff seems applicable in a real match.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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The PKTB is one of my favorites and its extremely useful. Try using it while you are being edgeguarded. Works great vs. shine.

As I posted in the guide the PKTBC is only recommended for use when you are trying to land a finishing blow/throw/combo. You are right to say 'why not block or counter' in the case the you wouldn't be landing a finishing blow. The PKTBC will catch your opponent off guard and the recovery time after being hit by your own pk thunder is shorter than the time it takes for your shield to go up, you to be hit, and it to go back down, so you have a small window to abuse lag.

BAiring at the edge is good but not perfect. There are ways around it. Your opponent will be taken by surprise by the PK2FE(and the your audience will like it too I'm sure^_^) and if they start to expect it...well if you are doing it right every time that won't matter...they will either get hit by you or your pk thunder. You can expect them to try and change up their recovery, but the pk thunder maneuvers better than a character. If they decide to eat it, you can do whatever, they're still off edge.

With the PKTRE they might hit u and they might not. It all depends on where they are when you use it, but because of the way you are moving the pk thunder if they do hit you after the tailwhip you have already set yourself up for a PKTB...unless the send you downwards. That's why this one is the hardest. With practice people will be able to see when the right times to use this are(when they will not be hit).

I've heard people say that trying to hit someone with pkthunder2 is stupid and won't happen, but it does happen.
The opponent will try to dodge it not knowing that you already know where they are going.
They will try to move away not knowing the full distance you travel. They will watch you pk thunder travel down alongside your back not know it doesn't need to be flying horizontally itself to send you that direction.
They may not realize that a pk thunder travelling straight down can send Ness straight up.
They may see you as vulnerable only to find themselves fallen into a tailwhipping trap that ultimately results in your head up their ***.

Don't ever lose faith. Don't ever be predicted. Don't ever give up.

That's my haiku for the this thread.

Now go practice.
 

Thomas Tipman

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Originally posted by Simna ibn Sind
With the PKTRE they might hit u and they might not. It all depends on where they are when you use it, but because of the way you are moving the pk thunder if they do hit you after the tailwhip you have already set yourself up for a PKTB...unless the send you downwards. That's why this one is the hardest. With practice people will be able to see when the right times to use this are(when they will not be hit).
ah, i like how it sets you up for the PKTB once the tail whip hits...didnt think of that (nice). i dont play ness just came in here to tell you al how much GANON OWNZ,:eek: WOOT-WOOT:eek: *runs out with a rubber chicken in hand*...
...
..<_<..
...

....>_>..
....
.<_<...>_>..
....
*waits till the coast is clear*
i'll try that PKTRE out...Shhhhh!
 

Simna ibn Sind

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But you don't play Ness...you could try it anyway...it will be hard though

DID YOU HEAR THAT PPL?! A SPY IS TRYING TO ANALYZE AND BREAK NESS STRATS! BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!!!

uh...*looks at first line* wtf...another haiku
 

Thomas Tipman

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Aha! i have learned the strat to defeating ness and i will reveal it to the world...the secret is...

dont laugh to hard while versing him and spontaniously combust as your controller unplugs due to your head falling back with the controller cause of your hands being amputated making you play with your mouth and oddly enough the controller stays in your mouth as you were laughing in the first place.

if whats said above doesnt happen you'll beat ness 4 stocked (out of 4), but if it does happen then...you'll 2 stock him. meh live with it.:D

on a side note: im gonna try that PKTRE out on a friend of mine cause he's a cocky basterd when it comes to edge guarding.
 

NESSBOUNDER

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I'm sorry, could you please give me a more in-depth discussion of Netting? I though Ness's PK thunder disappears as soon as you get struck.

You don't have to post it here, PM me if you want. I really need to know this, and I'll put it in my guide and you'll get credit.

(goes to read over guide again to make sense of it)

I've gotta try tailwhipping more...

And Thomas Tipman...are you a rubber chicken enthusiast TOO???

Hey, and once I understand this stuff, I'll think up some proper names for these moves. Abbreviated letters and numbers don't do them justice.
 

VilNess

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What the heck ganon owns?
I 3-stock ganons for breakfast :p
Just fair him across the stage and if he shields jump through him and punish later :p (sorries, another :p)

As long as we have concervative Smashers we won´t be engouraged to try new strategies...
luckily we have players liek Simna to think about new things...
Who cares if it´s really situational or whatnot?
another option is another option always!
Im so sick&tired of reading Ness recovery sucks and he gets edgeguarded easily.
Off course he gets, just like many others! and that requires that the edgeguarder knows everytrick ness can do when he´s recovering
(for. example I sometimes Uair on the ledge and return to stage with PKmissile, and I´ve got KO´s this way.)

Ok
enough text already
I´ve said enough
(HAIKU?)
 

Thomas Tipman

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vileness:if you ever down in fl make sure to call me up so you can play a good ganon:D . the PK thunder tricks simna has here seem like they're more for show. nothing wrong with being fancy though.
 

Simna ibn Sind

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They are good for show as long as ppl dont expect them, but sometimes they are not just extra options they are your ONLY options.

When a Fox jumps down to shine you off the stage, you PKTB or die.



NESSBOUNDER: It'd be good to get all the info on this stuff out here. What about netting(PKTB) did you want to know?

er....by netting did you mean pktb or tailwhipping?


EDIT: When Ness is hit PK Thunder will disappear if it is in the middle of a turn, but you will keep moving if it is in a straight line. I haven't tested every possible scenario with this, but as far as I can tell that's what happens.

It might make a difference that I'm playing the NTSC version of the game...although VilNess is playing the PAL version and I've heard him say he has been practicing some of the pk thunder things here, so that may not matter, but who knows.
 

VilNess

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Hmm if fox comes shining and you still have your 2nd jump left/are enough close to stage remember you can do an aerial off the stage and recover with PK missile afterwards.

though i don´t deny if PKTB wouldn´t work.
 

dan smith

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Agnovit

Shine spikes can destroy Ness' recovery.

All these abbreviations are confusing...

PKTBSC? PK2FE?

They are too similar for me to remember.
 

dan smith

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Shine spikes....

My friend Antx plays Fox...his main move is Shine spike. That's his style...he always tries to get cheap KO's rather than just overwhelming his opponents with strategy.

Anyway, I have to deal with a ton of Shine spike attempts...

I avoid it usually though very simple meathods, he knocks me off and follows....so I just Double Jump down and up to sweet spot the ledge.

Ness has good enough air maneuverability to simply evade Fox in the air.

That's my strat though, I also usually Dair as I recover back onto the stage. By DJing down and up back onto the stage I have returned to the stage but Fox is still recovering...so I throw the Dair out incase he tries to attack me on the return.

If I am too far to just DJ I get RIGHT inside of Sweet Spot range and use PK Missile. If he tries to get to me to Shine he usually can't reach me in time and misses or even gets hit by my PK Missile.

Distance is the best tool Ness has in this situation.

Sorry for not using any of these tactical concepts you guys have been discussing...I am just simple minded I guess. If I find them useful some day I will switch.

I'm all about practicality....speaking of which...I have been using a lot more UpSmash. Yeah!
 

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Well no matter what I tried, I couldn't get PK thunder to keep in play after I got hit.

I don't think that netting works in PAL version...I'm also having trouble seeing the use of tailwhipping someone's recovery. I have been practicing this on a Computer lv 9 Mario, and PK thunder just doesn't turn sharp enough to do what I want it to. Suposing the target jumps as soon as they can...then you might be able to cancel thier second jump. However, a target can simply drop beneath the stage and avoid your PK thunder, which cannot turn fast enough to follow them. Anyway, you try and you'll hit with the head. I don't find tailwhipping worth it unless your opponent is falling from up high and you whip them a bit before starting some serious edgeguarding.
Also, I can't see how anyone could tailwhip twice then hit with the head. Again, it's the way PK thunder turns. No matter how hard I try, I can't whip twice then strike with the head. The PK thunder disappears before I can strike with the head.

And they don't drop very far when hit by the tail. I wind the tail underneath them in an "S" pattern. Am I doing it wrong? and if so, how should I do it?

Perhaps PAL PK thunder is different after all?
 

dan smith

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Zip, Zip, Zap.

I am 100% sure I have double tailwhipped into a head at least twice, both on Fox.

I haven't been too influential on this thread, but I thought I would add this testimony.

It has to do with how fast Fox falls...

It might not work against CPU's....it might not work in PAL.
 

VilNess

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DAR:NS! DAN SMITH GOT TEH 1000TH POST IN NESS FORUMS! I WANTED THAT!

anyway: I doubt there are differences in PAL and NTSC.


there´s some funny things you can do with tailwhipping when it´s (pseudo)edgeguarding

like you tailwhip your enemy, (you might hit the enemy with the thunder too but so what! you might be able to follow up if they fly on top of your head.) then guide the thunder so you blast yourself direct to the ground ready to do an "recoverystandupattack" against the recoverer. Very cool if used right.
TAKE THAT YOU MARTHBOY!

Of and that pseudoedgeguarding is like if your enemy is launched in the air and he has to DI towards stage to make it back but won´t necessarily look like recovering. THen you try the thundersilde!

jump and immediately PK thunder, you should slide a bit under the ground if done properly. Here´s a change to tailwhip your enemy and PK MISSILE! it actually works agaisnt somechars (though situational) and even if you hit with the thunder you shouldn´t die if you slided corrrectly just on the corner of the stage.


:D NESS GO NESS!
 

Simna ibn Sind

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Yeah...there is a version of the reverse edgeguard that can actually be done on the ground...its kinda like that

You stand at the edge and your opponent is above you trying to come down with an aerial....u fire pkthunder at the time so you can turn it around to your side and tailwhip the nme on the way around....the nme is stalled a bit and you angle the pkthunder at yourself from underneath...you fire diagonal upwards and into you opponent...this can also be done not on the edge, but doing it away from the edge hinders your ability to angle up and allows the nme a larger escape window. Since this is on the ground it really isnt a reverse edgeguard...its just done almost the same way...although this one is easier and less risky...just another option for attack...there are so many to choose from^_^


NESSBOUNDER: try tailwhipping from above rather than below...they will jump into the tail....then they will do it again...after that spin it around and hit them underneath with the head...doesnt need to be compeltely underneath....in fact, its best you you can head them near the bottom on the side away from the stage...they will lose vertical distance AND be moved slightly away from the stage...this greatly helps to make up for the lag on the end of PK Thunder so you can follow up...if they are recovering completely vertically(from under the ledge) then tail-tail-head should only require you to slide into an edgehog afterwards.
You may run into trouble using this on pokemon...its a good thing pkthunder kills grapples/hookshots

Oh yeah....I should have mentioned this a lot earlier. If your opponent is very close the ledge while recovering then dont bother firing a pkthunder...unless they are falco in which case you can still give him a pretty bad time OR they are fox and you really know what they are gonna do and can abuse it completely.........wait what did i just say? did i just tell you to not fire a pk thunder at an nme that is already really close to the ledge? lol im so ashamed...i might as well have said "to move left and right use the control stick"

lol


I should be using this energy to update the guide...but you see...there are TONS more of pk thunder tricks...its just that....a TON of them are character situational...so they wont work on every opponent...FOR EXAMPLE, here is a little technique to use on shining fox's that abuses them because they have big ears, but mostly because they are fast fallers. I call this ability 'Pray'(like from Earthbound) because its super hard to do, but ITS SOOO SOOO rewarding if you pull it off:

---UPDATE ALERT-----

Pray(FOX ONLY!): You are off the stage recovering. A fox drops down to say hello and shine you(whether he shines you away from or underneath the stage doesnt matter). After you are hit with the shine, IMMEDIATELY fire a pk thunder. Direct it not at yourself, but above the fox as he jump cancels his shine. Catch his jump with the tail. He will lose only a little distance when this happens but he will have lost his midair jump and be forced to recover using his third jump. After you have tailwhipped his midair jump, swing the pkthunder around so it is moving underneath fox and back towards you. Glide it underneath fox so while he is charging firefox the tail of the pkthunder hits him again. He will lose a little distance and then start another firefox. Now your pkthunder should be back enar you now. Swing it around and hit yourself up at an angle so you end up in the path of fire fox. You get caught in the firefox and it takes you up with it. Fox will either grab the edge or successfully make it back to the stage...either way you are now up high and have another chance to recover back to the stage. Why is this so hard you ask? Its hard because it uses ALL of your PK Thunder time. If you dont make every turn just right then it will disappear before you make the final hit.
SPECIAL BONUS-->Death to Giygas: If you use Pray on a Fox that shined you but did not have a midair jump to cancel his shine with then you just KO'd yourself a Fox. The double tail on a fox who is already below the stage shining you and does not have a midair jump will knock him too low to get back to the ledge, but the firefox will still hit you and allow you to recover(and using this on a fox that cant jump cancel cuts the difficulty in half, but its still **** hard).

Kid tested, mother approved....erm... I mean: Its been tested(if it didnt work i wouldnt post it) and it was discovered by accident^_^

And the fox players will be like "I'M NOT WORTHY!"

*pant* *wheeze* What a long post! I forgot all that was in it...I think I'm gonna reread it myself...
 

NESSBOUNDER

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Wow...but when I'm playing Fox, I shine people off the stage and IMMEDIATELY jump cancel and recover with speed. I don't see how, whith the shine stun and the time it takes for Ness to execute PK Thunder how you would be able to navigate this around over Fox before he jumps to safety.

BUT WHOW!! IF you pulled that off, you'd be like :cool:

I've really got to play around with PK thunder more. And I've tried tailwhipping from above, but like I said, most characters can simply fall beneath the stage, past PK thunder and then recover with their jumps. PK thunder just turns way too poorly for me to do the tricks I want, but I'll keep trying. I like the idea of blasting yourself into the ground and then hitting recovering opponents with a rising strike. Not only does it prop them out for edgeguarding with only their third jump to save them, you are invincible while using it!

I also think that reverse PK thunder edgeguard may not work too well. The stun from Tail Whip is miniscule. Before you have a chance to blast yourself up, they will recover from the TW and hit you with a neu-air.

But I am using this on Mario most of the time. I do all my experiments on Mario or Sheik, because Mario's middle weight and everyone plays Sheik. I find that edgeguarding Fox/Falco with a neu-air or any other attack
 
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