• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Sigma Busters: Official Discussion Thread

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
It's literally just the same way you activate Back Airs, just on the ground. I feel like its a nice wrinkle to make gameplay a bit more distinct. Maybe some Back Tilts can be slower than the other tilts, but have higher kill power since they are both slower and harder to input, kinda like normal Back Airs. The main purpose was to give each air attack a mirror on the ground.
I mainly ask because I want to know if you intend to have characters always face the opponent or you intend to make it something you buffer/cancel into.

Using SoR as the example again, you could be in the middle of beating up an opponent and be approached from behind by another enemy. You can input a back attack mid combo to hit the guy behind you, so I was wondering if it was a similar idea here.

From what you're saying though, they're basically just regular f-tilts but with unique animations then? They attack in the opposite direction just without actually turning the character around.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
I mainly ask because I want to know if you intend to have characters always face the opponent or you intend to make it something you buffer/cancel into.

Using SoR as the example again, you could be in the middle of beating up an opponent and be approached from behind by another enemy. You can input a back attack mid combo to hit the guy behind you, so I was wondering if it was a similar idea here.

From what you're saying though, they're basically just regular f-tilts but with unique animations then? They attack in the opposite direction just without actually turning the character around.
I don't intend on having every face their opponents automatically, that just makes everyone's Back Airs very situation and some characters will be harmed badly by that mechanic, Weevle being one of them due to having a unique air dash for her Forward and Back Air. You can have the option if you want, but its not the default.

Back Tilts are an idea I just feel like gives my platfighter a more unique feature alongside the meter attacks. It makes the combat feel more unique without uprooting why people like Smash-styled platfigters, which I feel like is something I should strive for.

I do think that what I am currently making did stray from my original concept, but I feel like that's ultimately a good thing since this it makes the development process more enjoyable to me.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
I don't intend on having every face their opponents automatically, that just makes everyone's Back Airs very situation and some characters will be harmed badly by that mechanic, Weevle being one of them due to having a unique air dash for her Forward and Back Air. You can have the option if you want, but its not the default.
Ok, cool. Was hoping this wouldn't be the case as I think it does hurt the shotos, Terry and Kazuya in Smash a little bit.

Back Tilts are an idea I just feel like gives my platfighter a more unique feature alongside the meter attacks. It makes the combat feel more unique without uprooting why people like Smash-styled platfigters, which I feel like is something I should strive for.
Doesn't really answer my question about the utility. I don't think you need to try to justify their inclusion, the concept is perfectly fine and doesn't really clash with anything else already present.

I do think that what I am currently making did stray from my original concept, but I feel like that's ultimately a good thing since this it makes the development process more enjoyable to me.
Good, though I'd disagree with the first half since on a conceptual level it's just another tilt. Not really straying away so much as it is adding one additional normal per character.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Ok, cool. Was hoping this wouldn't be the case as I think it does hurt the shotos, Terry and Kazuya in Smash a little bit.



Doesn't really answer my question about the utility. I don't think you need to try to justify their inclusion, the concept is perfectly fine and doesn't really clash with anything else already present.


Good, though I'd disagree with the first half since on a conceptual level it's just another tilt. Not really straying away so much as it is adding one additional normal per character.
Your probably right, just another tilt, not really a big deal, just something small I wanted to add. Like all tilts, and to an extent all attacks, the purpose of a the back tile varies from fighter to fighter, some are combo starters, some are combo enders, some are kill moves, it is how they synergize with other moves in a character's kit that it important.

Aremi's Back Tilt would likely be the slow kill move, would give some Ganondorf Up Tilt vibes but is, of course, more practical to use Also adds variety to Aremi's kit by giving her a bit hit attack which she honestly lacks a bit in.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Kirbeh Kirbeh in case your wondering I am on the home stretch when designing the framework for my plat-fighter, so I am almost ready making my own original content, I an quite proud of myself on that front.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Hey Kirbeh Kirbeh check out Aremi's moveset on the first post, I updated it a bit to make her moveset more cohesive, added grabs, updated some outdated moves, and make her role more pronounced. I decided to make Aremi a combo character who has attacks lacking in notable knockback, so she has to wrack up damage before finishing them off with one of the her major kill moves. Also gave her a classic Mario Kick for her neutral air (I call those kicks Mario Kicks because the normal nickname is... innapropriate, especially since Aremi is still a kid) added some Ness tier aerials and throws, gave her a tether grab, polished her Up Specials, and overall make her moveset much more feasible. I am quite proud of it and I hope you like it. If you like you can give some feedback on cocncept on some of these attack ideas since I am on the home stretch on making my framework.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Hey Kirbeh Kirbeh check out Aremi's moveset on the first post, I updated it a bit to make her moveset more cohesive, added grabs, updated some outdated moves, and make her role more pronounced. I decided to make Aremi a combo character who has attacks lacking in notable knockback, so she has to wrack up damage before finishing them off with one of the her major kill moves. Also gave her a classic Mario Kick for her neutral air (I call those kicks Mario Kicks because the normal nickname is... innapropriate, especially since Aremi is still a kid) added some Ness tier aerials and throws, gave her a tether grab, polished her Up Specials, and overall make her moveset much more feasible. I am quite proud of it and I hope you like it. If you like you can give some feedback on cocncept on some of these attack ideas since I am on the home stretch on making my framework.
Are all the movesets in the OP up to date with your most recent changes? I'll try giving them all a read and provide feedback on each one when I get a chance.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Are all the movesets in the OP up to date with your most recent changes? I'll try giving them all a read and provide feedback on each one when I get a chance.
Yes and no, I also intend to give small updates to the other fighters to include modern mechanics and fully rework Kowalski, Weevle, and EPSILON soon. Aremi is just the one character I feel like has the most satisfactory completed moveset, hence why I wanted to announce it.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Hey Kirbeh Kirbeh check out this concept for a new character I made

007: Myten Queen
Name: Myten Queen

Species: Myten

Gender: Genderless, but led by a queen

Backstory: The Myten are a species of parasitic lifeforms that have made a name for themselves by being extremely invasive on several major planets. They form a powerful hive mind around a single insectoid core, known as a Queen Myten, who infects rotting matter to create more members of its colony. Mytens have been the target of several high profile extermination attempts due to how invasive they are, with massive bounties placed on their heads in order to slay entire colonies. However, some hives are more crafty than others and wait in the shadows for the opportunity to strike. When the Double Sigma returned and brought with it several alien lifeforms from outside the galaxy, the Myten have decided to raid the ship in order to infect new hosts and overrun the universe.

Appearance: The Myten consists of a queen and several Myten drones covering the queen's body. The queen is a jet black crustacean, resembling a combination of a lice, sea urchin, and cricket. The queen has five legs that have flattened shells which allows it to curl up its body into a ball. The Myten Queen also has a single blood red eye, which it uses to both see and direct control of their drones. The drones resemble sea urchins with tick legs, with a small pair of fangs and six red eyes. The drones are covered in sharp needles that contain a small pore from which the drones can launch acid, webbing, or eggs to create more Myten. The drones cover the queen to offer protection, turning themselves into various sharp appendages like spines, drills, and spears. During certan moves the Myten Queen summons different castes of Myten, including the explosive, balloon-like Myten Floater, the small, floor crawling, Myten Sneaker, the thin, aerodynamic Myten Locust, the large, spiraling, Myten Driller, and the smoky, toxic, Myten Fogger.

Role: Zone/Summoner

Gimmick: Spiky Shield
The Myten Queen covers herself in webbing when she casts her shield and then has her Myten drones cover the shield with their barbed spines. This shield doesn't shrink like other shield, and when physical contact is dealt to the shield, the opponent gets a small amount of damage and hitstun from the shield due to the spine. However this comes at a cost of durability as the shield drains the Hyper Meter more compared to other shields.

Jab: (Barb Barrage): A rapid-jab that has the queen quickly poke at the opponent with the spines of their Myten drones.
Forward Tilt (Barbed Fence): A slow but long-range attack that has the queen summon her drones to form a wall in front of the opponent that then pushes them forward.
Down Tilt (Spinning Top): Like a top, the queen spins around rapidly with spikes jutting out.
Up Tilt (Mist Burst): Summoning a Myten Fogger, the queen creates a cloud of toxic gas above herself to push opponents away, a good juggling tool.
Back Tilt (Drilling Stinger): A Myten Driller protects the queen, drilling opponents that dares to attack behind the queen, notably this moves the queen forward, making it also good for mobility.
Dash Attack (Spiny Slider): The queen rolls up into a ball and rolls forward, having good range for a dash attack but lacking in damage.

Neutral Air (Aerial Top): A similar move to the Spinning Top attack, but in the air, a good get-off-me tool.
Forward Aerial (Barb Hooker): A sudden jolt from the queen's spines get launched forward, quick start up and good powe but high end-lag.
Back Aerial (Bubble Burst): A Myten Floater explodes behind the queen, pushing anyone back a great distance.
Up Aerial (Spiny Shot): The queen launches a spine in an upward arch, which then gets launched in a slightly random direction. The quick start-up, combined with the low end-lag makes it a good move to spam.
Down Aerial (Driller Crash): A heavy Myten Driller goes underneath the queen to damage anyone underneath, this increases the queen's fall speed temporarily when used.

Side Charge (Drilling Motion): The Myten Queen has a Myten Driller charge up a powerful forward drilling attack.
Down Charge (Toxic Flood): The queen puffs itself to then launch a stream of acid around themselves.
Up Charge (Whirling Crown): The queen rolls up into a ball and spins rapidly around, the quickest of the three charge attacks.

Grab (Heartpiercer): The queen impales the target with one of their spines
Pummel (Melty Mash): The queen liquifies the opponents insides with acid to damage them.
Forward Throw (Balloon Rocket): The queen places a Myten Floater to explode the opponent's face.
Back Throw (Acid Jet): The queen turns around and sprays acid back, propelling the opponent.
Down Throw (Whirling Clamp): The queen performs the Whirling Crown attack with a Myten Driller boring in the opponent.
Up Throw (Fly Bye): The Myten Locusts lift and launch the opponent upward.



Up Special:
Swarm Dive

A move that has the queen be lifted upwards by the Myten Locusts, after a while the locusts will tire out and the queen will be sent to freefall. The more damage the queen has, the more Locusts will be spawned to the lift the queen, allowing them to travel and longer distance.

Up Hyper:
Acid Geyser

The queen launches themselves with a stream of acid that both damages and push opponents left in the stream.

Neutral Special:
Balloon Burst

Summoning a Myten Floater, the queen creates a stationary navel mine in the air. Press the special button again the increase the Floater's height, but after five presses the Floater will explode.

Neutral Hyper:
Acid Cutter

A blade of acid gets launched onto the ground that launches foes upward, a good combo tool into the Myten Floater.

Side Special:
Swarm Trapper

A single Myten Sneaker gets placed onto the ground, hold the special button to move the Sneaker forward and release the button to have the Sneaker jut a giant spike upward to impale the trap the opponent.

Side Hyper:
Spinning Buzzer

A Myten Driller takes the queen for a ride to perform a powerful tornado attack on the ground, great for horizontal recovery,

Down Special:
Smoke Bomb

A arching blob of mist that gets launched from the queen, when it lands on the ground it releases a swarm of Myten Smokers that swarm the landing site as a lingering trap.

Down Hyper:
Smoke Dart

The queen launches a single dart forward that hatches into a Myten Smoker that homes into the opponent to damage them.

Hypermax Attacks:

Electro Web

The Myten Queen launches acidic silk that conducts a charge, trapping opponents for follow-up combos.

Corona Bomb
A red flashing bomb that gets launched and directed by the queen. When it lands it becomes a powerful explosive that kill early, but its hard to aim and leaves the queen vulnerable if it misses.

Swarm of the Century
Five Myten Locusts get summoned and aim directly at the opponent for a powerful kamikaze attack, the safest but weakest of the three Hypermax Attacks.

It is called the Myten Queen, I made it to give the cast a more "alien" combatant. Also hive minds and crab monsters are common tropes to include in sci-fi stories, hence the creation. How do you like it? I intended it to be a Duck Hunt esc zoner with good ground speed. I also cleaned up the opening post if you noticed. Does this design sound cool to you, any ways I can improve it?
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Hey Kirbeh Kirbeh check out this concept for a new character I made

007: Myten Queen
Name: Myten Queen

Species: Myten

Gender: Genderless, but led by a queen

Backstory: The Myten are a species of parasitic lifeforms that have made a name for themselves by being extremely invasive on several major planets. They form a powerful hive mind around a single insectoid core, known as a Queen Myten, who infects rotting matter to create more members of its colony. Mytens have been the target of several high profile extermination attempts due to how invasive they are, with massive bounties placed on their heads in order to slay entire colonies. However, some hives are more crafty than others and wait in the shadows for the opportunity to strike. When the Double Sigma returned and brought with it several alien lifeforms from outside the galaxy, the Myten have decided to raid the ship in order to infect new hosts and overrun the universe.

Appearance: The Myten consists of a queen and several Myten drones covering the queen's body. The queen is a jet black crustacean, resembling a combination of a lice, sea urchin, and cricket. The queen has five legs that have flattened shells which allows it to curl up its body into a ball. The Myten Queen also has a single blood red eye, which it uses to both see and direct control of their drones. The drones resemble sea urchins with tick legs, with a small pair of fangs and six red eyes. The drones are covered in sharp needles that contain a small pore from which the drones can launch acid, webbing, or eggs to create more Myten. The drones cover the queen to offer protection, turning themselves into various sharp appendages like spines, drills, and spears. During certan moves the Myten Queen summons different castes of Myten, including the explosive, balloon-like Myten Floater, the small, floor crawling, Myten Sneaker, the thin, aerodynamic Myten Locust, the large, spiraling, Myten Driller, and the smoky, toxic, Myten Fogger.

Role: Zone/Summoner

Gimmick: Spiky Shield
The Myten Queen covers herself in webbing when she casts her shield and then has her Myten drones cover the shield with their barbed spines. This shield doesn't shrink like other shield, and when physical contact is dealt to the shield, the opponent gets a small amount of damage and hitstun from the shield due to the spine. However this comes at a cost of durability as the shield drains the Hyper Meter more compared to other shields.

Jab: (Barb Barrage): A rapid-jab that has the queen quickly poke at the opponent with the spines of their Myten drones.
Forward Tilt (Barbed Fence): A slow but long-range attack that has the queen summon her drones to form a wall in front of the opponent that then pushes them forward.
Down Tilt (Spinning Top): Like a top, the queen spins around rapidly with spikes jutting out.
Up Tilt (Mist Burst): Summoning a Myten Fogger, the queen creates a cloud of toxic gas above herself to push opponents away, a good juggling tool.
Back Tilt (Drilling Stinger): A Myten Driller protects the queen, drilling opponents that dares to attack behind the queen, notably this moves the queen forward, making it also good for mobility.
Dash Attack (Spiny Slider): The queen rolls up into a ball and rolls forward, having good range for a dash attack but lacking in damage.

Neutral Air (Aerial Top): A similar move to the Spinning Top attack, but in the air, a good get-off-me tool.
Forward Aerial (Barb Hooker): A sudden jolt from the queen's spines get launched forward, quick start up and good powe but high end-lag.
Back Aerial (Bubble Burst): A Myten Floater explodes behind the queen, pushing anyone back a great distance.
Up Aerial (Spiny Shot): The queen launches a spine in an upward arch, which then gets launched in a slightly random direction. The quick start-up, combined with the low end-lag makes it a good move to spam.
Down Aerial (Driller Crash): A heavy Myten Driller goes underneath the queen to damage anyone underneath, this increases the queen's fall speed temporarily when used.

Side Charge (Drilling Motion): The Myten Queen has a Myten Driller charge up a powerful forward drilling attack.
Down Charge (Toxic Flood): The queen puffs itself to then launch a stream of acid around themselves.
Up Charge (Whirling Crown): The queen rolls up into a ball and spins rapidly around, the quickest of the three charge attacks.

Grab (Heartpiercer): The queen impales the target with one of their spines
Pummel (Melty Mash): The queen liquifies the opponents insides with acid to damage them.
Forward Throw (Balloon Rocket): The queen places a Myten Floater to explode the opponent's face.
Back Throw (Acid Jet): The queen turns around and sprays acid back, propelling the opponent.
Down Throw (Whirling Clamp): The queen performs the Whirling Crown attack with a Myten Driller boring in the opponent.
Up Throw (Fly Bye): The Myten Locusts lift and launch the opponent upward.



Up Special:
Swarm Dive

A move that has the queen be lifted upwards by the Myten Locusts, after a while the locusts will tire out and the queen will be sent to freefall. The more damage the queen has, the more Locusts will be spawned to the lift the queen, allowing them to travel and longer distance.

Up Hyper:
Acid Geyser

The queen launches themselves with a stream of acid that both damages and push opponents left in the stream.

Neutral Special:
Balloon Burst

Summoning a Myten Floater, the queen creates a stationary navel mine in the air. Press the special button again the increase the Floater's height, but after five presses the Floater will explode.

Neutral Hyper:
Acid Cutter

A blade of acid gets launched onto the ground that launches foes upward, a good combo tool into the Myten Floater.

Side Special:
Swarm Trapper

A single Myten Sneaker gets placed onto the ground, hold the special button to move the Sneaker forward and release the button to have the Sneaker jut a giant spike upward to impale the trap the opponent.

Side Hyper:
Spinning Buzzer

A Myten Driller takes the queen for a ride to perform a powerful tornado attack on the ground, great for horizontal recovery,

Down Special:
Smoke Bomb

A arching blob of mist that gets launched from the queen, when it lands on the ground it releases a swarm of Myten Smokers that swarm the landing site as a lingering trap.

Down Hyper:
Smoke Dart

The queen launches a single dart forward that hatches into a Myten Smoker that homes into the opponent to damage them.

Hypermax Attacks:

Electro Web

The Myten Queen launches acidic silk that conducts a charge, trapping opponents for follow-up combos.

Corona Bomb
A red flashing bomb that gets launched and directed by the queen. When it lands it becomes a powerful explosive that kill early, but its hard to aim and leaves the queen vulnerable if it misses.

Swarm of the Century
Five Myten Locusts get summoned and aim directly at the opponent for a powerful kamikaze attack, the safest but weakest of the three Hypermax Attacks.

It is called the Myten Queen, I made it to give the cast a more "alien" combatant. Also hive minds and crab monsters are common tropes to include in sci-fi stories, hence the creation. How do you like it? I intended it to be a Duck Hunt esc zoner with good ground speed. I also cleaned up the opening post if you noticed. Does this design sound cool to you, any ways I can improve it?
A hive mind character is definitely an interesting concept and fits the summoner archetype quite well. However I do still think, it's outside the scope of the project in its current state. In addition to having a number of additional variables to account for compared to other characters it's also likely going to call for more complex animations and more animations in general for both the Queen and the summoned soldiers.

I've only skimmed the moveset thus far, but I'll reiterate on maintaining focus on the base cast for now. I think including some nods/reference to their existence would be fine somewhere in the game, but I'd shelve a playable appearance for a sequel produced in 3D where their development would be easier to manage.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
A hive mind character is definitely an interesting concept and fits the summoner archetype quite well. However I do still think, it's outside the scope of the project in its current state. In addition to having a number of additional variables to account for compared to other characters it's also likely going to call for more complex animations and more animations in general for both the Queen and the summoned soldiers.

I've only skimmed the moveset thus far, but I'll reiterate on maintaining focus on the base cast for now. I think including some nods/reference to their existence would be fine somewhere in the game, but I'd shelve a playable appearance for a sequel produced in 3D where their development would be easier to manage.
Maybe yeah, you never know sometimes, but yeah let's put a pin on it.

How do you like Aremi's rework though?
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Hey, I am wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to save on some animation by having some frames, not all of them, be the sprite squashing and stretching instead of meticulously animating each frame. Games like Binding of Isaac, Meat Boy, and a few others do that, so I think it can be a good idea for us as well. I also think it gives the art a more bouncy style, making it more distinct to look at.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Hey, I am wondering, maybe it would be a good idea to save on some animation by having some frames, not all of them, be the sprite squashing and stretching instead of meticulously animating each frame. Games like Binding of Isaac, Meat Boy, and a few others do that, so I think it can be a good idea for us as well. I also think it gives the art a more bouncy style, making it more distinct to look at.
There is no "some" vs "all" frames. The number of frames is determined on how detailed you want the animations to be. I already intended to employ smear frames where applicable/needed, but that's as far as it goes for trying to reduce the workload. If you want animations that look good and properly convey what's happening there's no cutting corners. Moreover, if you want nice looking bounce to character animation, reducing that number in certain areas is counter to the result you're asking for.

Isaac and MB are a poor comparison because they employ a simpler art style with compact sprites and simple/limited animation. Fighting games as a genre demand more detailed/fluid sprites to sell the impact of hits and properly convey motion. Then there's the number of actions per character compared to those games. Isaac for example only has a walking animation, a head turning animation and a couple of facial expressions. Likewise, most enemies only have one animation for movement and another for launching projectiles depending on the enemy.

Now take a look at the move sets you've created. Not only are there several more actions than in Smash Bros., but simply on the basis of being a fighting game, they're going to demand that higher level of detail and additional effects. Take Aremi for example; not only do her movements need to be animated but the fire she conjures as well. And those are just the attacks. Compare the basic functions of Isaac to those of Smash. The difference in sprite requirements on a per character basis is exponential.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
There is no "some" vs "all" frames. The number of frames is determined on how detailed you want the animations to be. I already intended to employ smear frames where applicable/needed, but that's as far as it goes for trying to reduce the workload. If you want animations that look good and properly convey what's happening there's no cutting corners. Moreover, if you want nice looking bounce to character animation, reducing that number in certain areas is counter to the result you're asking for.

Isaac and MB are a poor comparison because they employ a simpler art style with compact sprites and simple/limited animation. Fighting games as a genre demand more detailed/fluid sprites to sell the impact of hits and properly convey motion. Then there's the number of actions per character compared to those games. Isaac for example only has a walking animation, a head turning animation and a couple of facial expressions. Likewise, most enemies only have one animation for movement and another for launching projectiles depending on the enemy.

Now take a look at the move sets you've created. Not only are there several more actions than in Smash Bros., but simply on the basis of being a fighting game, they're going to demand that higher level of detail and additional effects. Take Aremi for example; not only do her movements need to be animated but the fire she conjures as well. And those are just the attacks. Compare the basic functions of Isaac to those of Smash. The difference in sprite requirements on a per character basis is exponential.
I understand, I am just inexperienced with actually getting this far. This has been the farthest of a threshold I have been when developing a game, and I never even thought I would get this far, but I am, and I am happy about that. I am also appreciative of your help on the project, and I do hope we can find a proper in-between on the scope we want for the project. This is all new territory for me and I have just ironed out a ton of issues, hence my excitement. I will attempt to be more grounded in my ambitions if it means you'll have a good time in development too, I will feel horrible if I overwork someone without my knowledge. If you have any immediate issues I implore you to tell me so we can discuss a way to fix it. I feel like once we both find the best way to work, both our projects will go by smoother.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
I understand, I am just inexperienced with actually getting this far. This has been the farthest of a threshold I have been when developing a game, and I never even thought I would get this far, but I am, and I am happy about that. I am also appreciative of your help on the project, and I do hope we can find a proper in-between on the scope we want for the project. This is all new territory for me and I have just ironed out a ton of issues, hence my excitement. I will attempt to be more grounded in my ambitions if it means you'll have a good time in development too.
Having ambitions for your project is fine (I think we've touched on this before already a few pages back,) just remind yourself not to overdo it in scope. Piling on too much will just prolong and bloat development, plus as the sole programmer, that's a lot of work you'd wind up stuck with too. Could even lead to burnout and abandonment of the project altogether.

The important thing is to find a good work balance, hence why I think keeping the scope small is better. For one, lack of manpower, and two so that there's better focus on some key aspects which will hopefully culminate in an actual finished game release. Once you have something out there you can either continue your work on it through updates/DLC or take some time to actually rest once it's complete. Then you can still come back to it later or move on to another project if you so choose.

I will feel horrible if I overwork someone without my knowledge. If you have any immediate issues I implore you to tell me so we can discuss a way to fix it.
The concern is appreciated, but not something I think you should be stressing over just yet. I'm here because I volunteered, it's not like I'm in your employ (yet?) As things currently stand, I've only done a little bit of character design. I do have a job, so I haven't really worked on your project all that much.

That said, I again appreciate the professionalism.

Do bear in mind that progress on my side will be pretty slow given work and other irl priorities. I highly recommend you try recruiting others to work on sprite art (and programmers too, you've got way too much on your plate as well). Not quite yet, as we still need to finalize the character designs (I think we've still got more workshopping/ironing out to do.) Aside from my limited time, the workload simply isn't feasible for a single person. (If you want a reasonable dev time that is.) Though again, that's for when you have an actual test build/proof of concept ready.

I guess I'll go ahead and rip the band aid off for this next one since we're already on the subject. You're honestly very unlikely to find straight up volunteers. Right now, I'm helping from a combination of genuine interest and a mere whim, but I also don't like the idea of spending countless hours working on it down the line for zero compensation.

If you're serious about this project, you'll need to either:

1. Put a team of volunteers together who are willing to chip away at it over an extended dev period out of pure passion for the project.

2. Hire people, which will require funding from either:

A. A funding campaign via Kickstarter/Indiegogo or

B. Another studio/publisher. You'd have to pitch the project to them, but if they accept, you're also going to likely sign away the rights to your game. Not always the case but it is common.

By default, you're at option 1 right now. Still perfectly doable but you're looking at several years of slow progress while volunteers work on it on their own time. Sigma Busters will not be their priority.

I believe you also mentioned at one point that you're a student, right? So as things stand, this is probably your best (only) bet for the time being anyway. For now, you still have me on board, just don't expect anything other than slow progress from me. Again, I'm not giving up on it, but it's not a priority given my other obligations.

If anything, I'd say just keep on grinding towards a demo build. By the time it's ready you might be able to use one of the other options. I'd say take some time away from programming for a bit as well and write out an overall project plan. Stuff you can use as roadmap for development and ideas for pitching the game if ever do go the publisher or crowdfunding route. Or if you do wind up going the full passion project/indie route with just volunteers figure out a price point and revenue split for the members you bring on board. If you successfully launch on Steam or itch.io or somewhere else, you should still pay your artists once the finished product goes live.

And sorry for the sudden shift, didn't mean to jump scare you with business/money talk, but it's something you should be thinking about if you want to turn this into a career.

I feel like once we both find the best way to work, both our projects will go by smoother.
You referring to my share of the work or my own project? (I only ask because I think I've only mentioned it in passing to Knee.)
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Having ambitions for your project is fine (I think we've touched on this before already a few pages back,) just remind yourself not to overdo it in scope. Piling on too much will just prolong and bloat development, plus as the sole programmer, that's a lot of work you'd wind up stuck with too. Could even lead to burnout and abandonment of the project altogether.

The important thing is to find a good work balance, hence why I think keeping the scope small is better. For one, lack of manpower, and two so that there's better focus on some key aspects which will hopefully culminate in an actual finished game release. Once you have something out there you can either continue your work on it through updates/DLC or take some time to actually rest once it's complete. Then you can still come back to it later or move on to another project if you so choose.


The concern is appreciated, but not something I think you should be stressing over just yet. I'm here because I volunteered, it's not like I'm in your employ (yet?) As things currently stand, I've only done a little bit of character design. I do have a job, so I haven't really worked on your project all that much.

That said, I again appreciate the professionalism.

Do bear in mind that progress on my side will be pretty slow given work and other irl priorities. I highly recommend you try recruiting others to work on sprite art. Not quite yet, as we still need to finalize the character designs (I think we've still got more workshopping/ironing out to do.) Aside from my limited time, the workload simply isn't feasible for a single person. (If you want a reasonable dev time that is.) Though again, that's for when you have an actual test build/proof of concept ready.

I guess I'll go ahead and rip the band aid off for this next one since we're already on the subject. You're honestly very unlikely to find straight up volunteers. Right now, I'm helping from a combination of genuine interest and a mere whim, but I also don't like the idea of spending countless hours working on it down the line for zero compensation.

If you're serious about this project, you'll need to either:

1. Put a team of volunteers together who are willing to chip away at it over an extended dev period out of pure passion for the project.

2. Hire people, which will require funding from either:

A. A funding campaign via Kickstarter/Indiegogo or

B. Another studio/publisher. You'd have to pitch the project to them, but if they accept, you're also going to likely sign away the rights to your game. Not always the case but it is common.

By default, you're at option 1 right now. Still perfectly doable but you're looking at several years of slow progress while volunteers work on it on their own time. Sigma Busters will not be their priority.

I believe you also mentioned at one point that you're a student, right? So as things stand, this is probably your best (only) bet for the time being anyway. For now, you still have me on board, just don't expect anything other than slow progress from me. Again, I'm not giving up on it, but it's not a priority given my other obligations.

If anything, I'd say just keep on grinding towards a demo build. By the time it's ready you might be able to use one of the other options. I'd say take some time away from programming for a bit as well and write out an overall project plan. Stuff you can use as roadmap for development and ideas for pitching the game if ever do go the publisher or crowdfunding route. Or if you do wind up going the full passion project/indie route with just volunteers figure out a price point and revenue split for the members you bring on board. If you successfully launch on Steam or itch.io or somewhere else, you should still pay your artists once the finished product goes live.

And sorry for the sudden shift, didn't mean to jump scare you with business/money talk, but it's something you should be thinking about if you want to turn this into a career.


You referring to my share of the work or my own project? (I only ask because I think I've only mentioned it in passing to Knee.)
I think getting my framework done is a good priority to have, since it proves to others that I'm serious about making this game. I also like the pointers you gave me, finding a team may be smart down the road. Also when I mean both of our projects it is both my project and whatever stuff your making on your own, since I know you have a life of your own.

Thansk for the talk anyway, you made some good points.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
I think getting my framework done is a good priority to have, since it proves to others that I'm serious about making this game. I also like the pointers you gave me, finding a team may be smart down the road. Also when I mean both of our projects it is both my project and whatever stuff your making on your own, since I know you have a life of your own.

Thansk for the talk anyway, you made some good points.
I did finally take a look at the updated OP btw, and I do have some suggestions and revisions I'd like to run by you. That'll have to wait for tomorrow night though, it'll take some time to write it all out and right now I've got to head off to bed. I'll be getting out quite late so it'll probably be another late-night post like today's convo. (Late night for me anyway, I don't know your time zone.) So good night or have a good rest of the day.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
I did finally take a look at the updated OP btw, and I do have some suggestions and revisions I'd like to run by you. That'll have to wait for tomorrow night though, it'll take some time to write it all out and right now I've got to head off to bed. I'll be getting out quite late so it'll probably be another late-night post like today's convo. (Late night for me anyway, I don't know your time zone.) So good night or have a good rest of the day.
I'm Pacific time BTW, and yeah I'm open to suggestions, was going to take a break tommroow since I basically did two days worth of coding today.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Glubbfubb Glubbfubb

Long Post Warning

Aremi Move List Revision

Screenshot 2024-02-28 210402.png


Neutral Attack: Root Kicks – A standing high kick, followed by two more using her vine for support as it roots itself into the ground.


Forward Tilt: Wick Lighter – A small flame projectile fired from Aremi's finger. Travels a short distance before disappearing.


Forward Tilt (Low Diagonal Input): Fire Stamp – A forward stomp that produces flames. Can be performed up to 3 times in quick succession.


Up Tilt: Torch Bearer – Aremi swings her arm in an overhead arc, producing flames from her fingertip.


Back Tilt: Flashfire – A quick, flame covered kick. Can be used to retaliate against opponents from behind. Also capable of knocking away projectiles.


Down Tilt: Root Sweeper – Aremi's vine roots itself into the ground for support, she then gets thrust forward a short distance, attacking with a sweep kick before retracting to her original position.


Dash Attack: Underbrush – A sliding kick with a low profile, allowing Aremi to duck under projectiles and some standing attacks.


Side Charge: Spitfire – Aremi spits out a burst of roaring flames. It's got short range and but is fast and powerful. Can be angled up or down.


Up Charge: Firework Flare – Aremi raises her hand, pointing straight up while charging a flame at her fingertip. She then fires it into the sky where it explodes in spectacular fashion (like a firework!) The image produced by the flame can vary but is purely aesthetic and does not affect the moves attributes.


Down Charge: Arcane Fire – Aremi summons a ring of fire from the ground to surround herself and keep opponents at bay.


Neutral Air: Branch Kick – Aremi extends her leg to kick and holds the pose, allowing the hit to momentarily linger.


Forward Air – Fall Dropkick – Aremi performs a strong airborne dropkick. Continue holding the input to hold the pose as you fall, though landing in this position increases endlag.


Back Air – Vine Whip – Aremi quickly turns in the air, swinging her vine like a whip. Fast and has good range but high end lag.


Up Air – Autumn Breeze – A quick upwards kick with a wide arc.


Down Air – Flame Burst - Aremi leans downard with both hands brought close together. She then fires a short-range burst of flame to spike opponents caught directly beneath. The explosion has a deceptively wide radius, though the rest of flames will not spike.


Down Air (Low Diagonal Input) – Ember Dive – Aremi performs a quick, flaming dive kick.


Grab Aerial: Vine Tether – Aremi throws out her vine to use as a tether. It can be aimed in multiple directions and angles. If it makes contact with an opponent it deals light damage and knockback. If it makes contact with the stage, the vine will attach itself and pull Aremi in. Use it to aid in recovery when off stage or to quickly return to the ground when above the stage or a platform.


Neutral Special: Seed Shot – Aremi spits seeds from her mouth. They travel quite far but deal only light damage and no knockback or hit stun. If they pass through a flame, they catch fire and deal more damage and light hit stun.

Neutral Hyper: Scatter Shot – Aremi fires a burst of flaming seeds in a wide spread.


Neutral Super: Snake Weed – Aremi plants a seed in the ground in front of her which quickly grows a long thorny bramble that snakes it way forward along the stage a good distance. Opponents caught at the start of the move will take multiple hits as they're pushed across the stage. Opponents who avoid initial attack will have to deal with the thorny vines that remain onstage for a short while and deal damage while passing through them.


Forward Special: Pyro Pumpkin – Aremi throws a Pyro Pumpkin forward in a short arc. Angle the input high and she will lob it high into the air, traveling in a parabola. Angle the input low, and she will roll it along the ground like a bowling ball. In the air, the low angle will have Aremi drop the pumpkin straight down.

Forward Hyper: Pyro Patch – Aremi will hold multiple Pyro Pumpkins in here arms and throw them all together creating a series of small explosions in a wide radius.

Forward Super: Mind Blown – Aremi removes her own head and super charges it with her purple flames. You can then throw or roll her head in the same manner as the normal Pyro Pumpkin special, but with a much larger, much stronger explosion of flame. The blast conveniently sends her head back towards her body.


Back Special: Spooky Scream – Aremi will briefly turn away before quickly facing forward again attempting to scare the opponent while releasing a short-range scream that briefly paralyzes foes.

Back Hyper: Paralyzing Scream – Aremi will briefly turn away before quickly facing the camera and performing a scary face while unleashing a parlaying scream with a wider radius all around her.

Back Super: Pyro Disk – Aremi will take a step back gathering flames between her hands. The flames will quickly grow into a spiraling disk of fire which she then launches forward. Tilt the stick up or down to adjust the angle that she launches the disk at.


Up Special: Willow Wisp – Aremi will hover in place as small orbs of wispy fire will begin circling around her. During this time, you can input any direction, after which she will rocket in that direction while enveloped in her purple flames.

Up Hyper: Pyro Wisp – Same as above but the flames are stronger and deal more hits.

Up Super: Head Splitter – As a last-ditch effort Aremi will pull off her own head and throw it with all her might. Using her flames to add some explosive power, she'll launch her head sky high. Upon landing, she'll sprout a new body.

The explosion on initial use will burn away her previous body and deal massive damage, making it a safe option for her, but very dangerous for opponents.


Down Special: Lantern Flower – The flower on Aremi's vine will produce another large flower floats in the air. The open flower can be used as a grappling point for Aremi's tether. You can also throw a Pyro Pumpkin into it to light the center and create a floating hazard for opponents. The Lantern Flower will remain indefinitely until Aremi tries to produce another. It can however wither from taking damage via opponents attacks or eventually burn away from holding a flame.

Down Hyper: Pyro Flower – A more durable Lantern Flower will be produced with a flame already in its center.

Down Super: Pyro Tornado – Aremi will begin to spin while producing flames, becoming a tornado of fire. You can move left and right as well as gain height by mashing the special button.


I tried to keep as much as I could but if I'm being honest some of the stuff like Pyro Tornado feels a lot like you wanted to give her Mario Tornado (since she's supposed to kinda be an all-rounder setplay) but ran out of special moves and just through it in with the Hypers to squeeze it in somewhere. Too many ideas, not enough room for them.

Also, I just realized that I forgot the throw. But I don't feel like going back in to add them right now...

Context for Changes and Other Stuff

Okay, I'm a few days past since when I said I would post again, but I finally finished typing this up. The accompanying doodles remain unfinished due to lack of time, but I'll be working on finishing the concept sketches for Aremi's move list soon. After her I'll move on to another character and so on until I've reviewed everyone on the roster so far.


First few things I want to address are more general to the game itself rather than character specific. The first is Hyper Moves. My revision is going to treat Hyper Moves as more traditional EX moves from other fighting games. I've got nothing against the additional unique moves you've added, but as things currently are what really makes them any different from Super Moves?


Making them stronger versions of the base specials makes the meter cost and move mapping more consistent with what they were originally meant to be, so that's what I'm doing.


With that in mind, I'm not getting rid of any of them either, instead I'll be rearranging them into spots that make more sense for their utility.


In service of this some Hypers/Hypermax moves have swapped positions, some have been incorporated into Back Special/Hyper/Hypermax (which I think you forgot to add?) I'll also be adding two additional Hypermax moves to create one for each input (neutral and the four directions.)


The next point is changes to move names or outright swapping moves out for new ones. This is something I always have reservations about bringing up as I like a lot of your ideas and want to respect your vision. However, I do think having input from more people will help refine them into more appealing/functional move sets. Plus, as the second creative/only artist on the project, I'm already injecting my own ideas through the character design.


Hopefully we won't butt heads too much, but I want to present some of my own ideas for these characters in places where I feel they can be improved. Then we can go back and forth on it. Ideally we should get some additional input from others as well. For any lurkers out there, please feel free to chime in, we'd appreciate the feedback As for particular users, I think Knee is a good candidate if they are willing to pop in every now and then.


Last point is artist/business talk, specifically about Aremi. As the current character designer, I've been taking your prompts, sketching possible designs and then presenting you with ones that I think could work. When everything is said and done, I would of course like proper credit for my hand in their creation. While they are my designs, they are still your concepts. Your characters.


You may have noticed that as part of my redesign for Weevle (still trying to refine that one btw) that I abandoned the Kamen Rider inspired look. Aside from simply trying to make a smaller more “cute/gremlin” type of design for her, the masked look was partially recycled from my own personal backlog of shelved characters and concepts. This was a deliberate change on my part both in service of making a more fitting Weevle design, and to keep my own design for later use.


So, with the Weevle design I'm prepping, I've no issue with the rights to her character design being attached to Sigma Busters. Same goes for my designs for Levi, Wynnie, Ep, Lam, Ahab and Kowalski. The same applies to whatever I come up with for Samson and the Myten if/when we ever get around to those.


That brings us to Aremi. From the start, I pretty much just slotted a new face over an existing character of mine, and we went from there. And honestly, I think it works. I like the outcome and I've grown attached to her. And that's where the potential problem arises.


To put it succinctly; I'd like ownership of Aremi. I don't want to pull her from the game or anything like that, but rather the right to use her again in my own projects as I see fit. I could alternatively make you another design and retract the current one but I do honestly feel as though throwing my old characters at your pitch kind of evolved them into something that genuinely works for your project. But that's also why I feel like design wise she's just as much my own character.


What I'd like as stated above is to retain rights to just her. No one else and nothing else within Sigma Busters. She would still be a part of Sigma Busters and be free to use in any sequels down the line should you want to make them.

This does ultimately mean; I could make alternations to her design as I see fit and use her freely outside of Sigma Busters.

If you find this disagreeable, then I'll try and whip up another design. Just let me know.

edit: added image of move sketches to top of move list spoiler post
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Glubbfubb Glubbfubb

Long Post Warning

Aremi Move List Revision

View attachment 385677

Neutral Attack: Root Kicks – A standing high kick, followed by two more using her vine for support as it roots itself into the ground.


Forward Tilt: Wick Lighter – A small flame projectile fired from Aremi's finger. Travels a short distance before disappearing.


Forward Tilt (Low Diagonal Input): Fire Stamp – A forward stomp that produces flames. Can be performed up to 3 times in quick succession.


Up Tilt: Torch Bearer – Aremi swings her arm in an overhead arc, producing flames from her fingertip.


Back Tilt: Flashfire – A quick, flame covered kick. Can be used to retaliate against opponents from behind. Also capable of knocking away projectiles.


Down Tilt: Root Sweeper – Aremi's vine roots itself into the ground for support, she then gets thrust forward a short distance, attacking with a sweep kick before retracting to her original position.


Dash Attack: Underbrush – A sliding kick with a low profile, allowing Aremi to duck under projectiles and some standing attacks.


Side Charge: Spitfire – Aremi spits out a burst of roaring flames. It's got short range and but is fast and powerful. Can be angled up or down.


Up Charge: Firework Flare – Aremi raises her hand, pointing straight up while charging a flame at her fingertip. She then fires it into the sky where it explodes in spectacular fashion (like a firework!) The image produced by the flame can vary but is purely aesthetic and does not affect the moves attributes.


Down Charge: Arcane Fire – Aremi summons a ring of fire from the ground to surround herself and keep opponents at bay.


Neutral Air: Branch Kick – Aremi extends her leg to kick and holds the pose, allowing the hit to momentarily linger.


Forward Air – Fall Dropkick – Aremi performs a strong airborne dropkick. Continue holding the input to hold the pose as you fall, though landing in this position increases endlag.


Back Air – Vine Whip – Aremi quickly turns in the air, swinging her vine like a whip. Fast and has good range but high end lag.


Up Air – Autumn Breeze – A quick upwards kick with a wide arc.


Down Air – Flame Burst - Aremi leans downard with both hands brought close together. She then fires a short-range burst of flame to spike opponents caught directly beneath. The explosion has a deceptively wide radius, though the rest of flames will not spike.


Down Air (Low Diagonal Input) – Ember Dive – Aremi performs a quick, flaming dive kick.


Grab Aerial: Vine Tether – Aremi throws out her vine to use as a tether. It can be aimed in multiple directions and angles. If it makes contact with an opponent it deals light damage and knockback. If it makes contact with the stage, the vine will attach itself and pull Aremi in. Use it to aid in recovery when off stage or to quickly return to the ground when above the stage or a platform.


Neutral Special: Seed Shot – Aremi spits seeds from her mouth. They travel quite far but deal only light damage and no knockback or hit stun. If they pass through a flame, they catch fire and deal more damage and light hit stun.

Neutral Hyper: Scatter Shot – Aremi fires a burst of flaming seeds in a wide spread.


Neutral Super: Snake Weed – Aremi plants a seed in the ground in front of her which quickly grows a long thorny bramble that snakes it way forward along the stage a good distance. Opponents caught at the start of the move will take multiple hits as they're pushed across the stage. Opponents who avoid initial attack will have to deal with the thorny vines that remain onstage for a short while and deal damage while passing through them.


Forward Special: Pyro Pumpkin – Aremi throws a Pyro Pumpkin forward in a short arc. Angle the input high and she will lob it high into the air, traveling in a parabola. Angle the input low, and she will roll it along the ground like a bowling ball. In the air, the low angle will have Aremi drop the pumpkin straight down.

Forward Hyper: Pyro Patch – Aremi will hold multiple Pyro Pumpkins in here arms and throw them all together creating a series of small explosions in a wide radius.

Forward Super: Mind Blown – Aremi removes her own head and super charges it with her purple flames. You can then throw or roll her head in the same manner as the normal Pyro Pumpkin special, but with a much larger, much stronger explosion of flame. The blast conveniently sends her head back towards her body.


Back Special: Spooky Scream – Aremi will briefly turn away before quickly facing forward again attempting to scare the opponent while releasing a short-range scream that briefly paralyzes foes.

Back Hyper: Paralyzing Scream – Aremi will briefly turn away before quickly facing the camera and performing a scary face while unleashing a parlaying scream with a wider radius all around her.

Back Super: Pyro Disk – Aremi will take a step back gathering flames between her hands. The flames will quickly grow into a spiraling disk of fire which she then launches forward. Tilt the stick up or down to adjust the angle that she launches the disk at.


Up Special: Willow Wisp – Aremi will hover in place as small orbs of wispy fire will begin circling around her. During this time, you can input any direction, after which she will rocket in that direction while enveloped in her purple flames.

Up Hyper: Pyro Wisp – Same as above but the flames are stronger and deal more hits.

Up Super: Head Splitter – As a last-ditch effort Aremi will pull off her own head and throw it with all her might. Using her flames to add some explosive power, she'll launch her head sky high. Upon landing, she'll sprout a new body.

The explosion on initial use will burn away her previous body and deal massive damage, making it a safe option for her, but very dangerous for opponents.


Down Special: Lantern Flower – The flower on Aremi's vine will produce another large flower floats in the air. The open flower can be used as a grappling point for Aremi's tether. You can also throw a Pyro Pumpkin into it to light the center and create a floating hazard for opponents. The Lantern Flower will remain indefinitely until Aremi tries to produce another. It can however wither from taking damage via opponents attacks or eventually burn away from holding a flame.

Down Hyper: Pyro Flower – A more durable Lantern Flower will be produced with a flame already in its center.

Down Super: Pyro Tornado – Aremi will begin to spin while producing flames, becoming a tornado of fire. You can move left and right as well as gain height by mashing the special button.


I tried to keep as much as I could but if I'm being honest some of the stuff like Pyro Tornado feels a lot like you wanted to give her Mario Tornado (since she's supposed to kinda be an all-rounder setplay) but ran out of special moves and just through it in with the Hypers to squeeze it in somewhere. Too many ideas, not enough room for them.

Also, I just realized that I forgot the throw. But I don't feel like going back in to add them right now...

Context for Changes and Other Stuff

Okay, I'm a few days past since when I said I would post again, but I finally finished typing this up. The accompanying doodles remain unfinished due to lack of time, but I'll be working on finishing the concept sketches for Aremi's move list soon. After her I'll move on to another character and so on until I've reviewed everyone on the roster so far.


First few things I want to address are more general to the game itself rather than character specific. The first is Hyper Moves. My revision is going to treat Hyper Moves as more traditional EX moves from other fighting games. I've got nothing against the additional unique moves you've added, but as things currently are what really makes them any different from Super Moves?


Making them stronger versions of the base specials makes the meter cost and move mapping more consistent with what they were originally meant to be, so that's what I'm doing.


With that in mind, I'm not getting rid of any of them either, instead I'll be rearranging them into spots that make more sense for their utility.


In service of this some Hypers/Hypermax moves have swapped positions, some have been incorporated into Back Special/Hyper/Hypermax (which I think you forgot to add?) I'll also be adding two additional Hypermax moves to create one for each input (neutral and the four directions.)


The next point is changes to move names or outright swapping moves out for new ones. This is something I always have reservations about bringing up as I like a lot of your ideas and want to respect your vision. However, I do think having input from more people will help refine them into more appealing/functional move sets. Plus, as the second creative/only artist on the project, I'm already injecting my own ideas through the character design.


Hopefully we won't butt heads too much, but I want to present some of my own ideas for these characters in places where I feel they can be improved. Then we can go back and forth on it. Ideally we should get some additional input from others as well. For any lurkers out there, please feel free to chime in, we'd appreciate the feedback As for particular users, I think Knee is a good candidate if they are willing to pop in every now and then.


Last point is artist/business talk, specifically about Aremi. As the current character designer, I've been taking your prompts, sketching possible designs and then presenting you with ones that I think could work. When everything is said and done, I would of course like proper credit for my hand in their creation. While they are my designs, they are still your concepts. Your characters.


You may have noticed that as part of my redesign for Weevle (still trying to refine that one btw) that I abandoned the Kamen Rider inspired look. Aside from simply trying to make a smaller more “cute/gremlin” type of design for her, the masked look was partially recycled from my own personal backlog of shelved characters and concepts. This was a deliberate change on my part both in service of making a more fitting Weevle design, and to keep my own design for later use.


So, with the Weevle design I'm prepping, I've no issue with the rights to her character design being attached to Sigma Busters. Same goes for my designs for Levi, Wynnie, Ep, Lam, Ahab and Kowalski. The same applies to whatever I come up with for Samson and the Myten if/when we ever get around to those.


That brings us to Aremi. From the start, I pretty much just slotted a new face over an existing character of mine, and we went from there. And honestly, I think it works. I like the outcome and I've grown attached to her. And that's where the potential problem arises.


To put it succinctly; I'd like ownership of Aremi. I don't want to pull her from the game or anything like that, but rather the right to use her again in my own projects as I see fit. I could alternatively make you another design and retract the current one but I do honestly feel as though throwing my old characters at your pitch kind of evolved them into something that genuinely works for your project. But that's also why I feel like design wise she's just as much my own character.


What I'd like as stated above is to retain rights to just her. No one else and nothing else within Sigma Busters. She would still be a part of Sigma Busters and be free to use in any sequels down the line should you want to make them.

This does ultimately mean; I could make alternations to her design as I see fit and use her freely outside of Sigma Busters.

If you find this disagreeable, then I'll try and whip up another design. Just let me know.

edit: added image of move sketches to top of move list spoiler post
I think your idea for Hypermax attacks is both more interesting and more mechanically sound than what I had, I do feel a back special may be a bit too much, especially since you previously said we shouldn't add too many moves, but if it works it works, can't argue that.

Also I don't mind if you use Aremi in your own projects, it may be my original concept but you helped a lot and you should have partial ownership, if the off chance the project fizzles out you'll still be able to still make use of the character, so we both win.

One thing I was going to bring up when making a moveset, I feel the vine tether could be expanded more outside of a grab and zair, like maybe if you hold the grab button you can freely swing around the vine like a whip, making it like Shieks old chain and Simon's whip spin, though the usefulness of that may be a bit dodgy.

Thanks for so much feedback, I love this.

Can we still keep the old Up Charge, I kinds thought it was funny.
 
Last edited:

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
I think your idea for Hypermax attacks is both more interesting and more mechanically sound than what I had, I do feel a back special may be a bit too much, especially since you previously said we shouldn't add too many moves, but if it works it works, can't argue that.

Also I don't mind if you use Aremi in your own projects, it may be my original concept but you helped a lot and you should have partial ownership, if the off chance the project fizzles out you'll still be able to still make use of the character, so we both win.

One thing I was going to bring up when making a moveset, I feel the vine tether could be expanded more outside of a grab and zair, like maybe if you hold the grab button you can freely swing around the vine like a whip, making it like Shieks old chain and Simon's whip spin, though the usefulness of that may be a bit dodgy.

Thanks for so much feedback, I love this.

Can we still keep the old Up Charge, I kinds thought it was funny.
I mainly added the Back Special and accompanying Hyper/Hypermax since you'd previously added a Back Tilt. I'd figured that was meant to be the intent but wasn't entirely sure. Honestly, I think it'd be fine though it does make things a little trickier for characters who have movement-based side specials. Sort of like how some people accidentally self-destruct with Terry in Smash due to the placement of Crack Shoot. I personally don't think it's really that big a deal and if that expectation is made from the start (as opposed to Smash throwing it in on a single character post launch) I think people that pick the game up will just learn/grow accustomed to it. It is something to keep in mind though since it could potentially throw a lot of players off.

That actually leads right into the next point regarding Aremi. I know you said you didn't want to have any clones in the game, but with the sheer amount of moves you've tried squeezing into her, why not make an exception here? We could give her a semi-clone sister character (potentially literally even.) Any moves you absolutely want Aremi to have she can take, and the excess could go to the other. My Luigi to your Mario so to speak. Likewise, with the character rights, I could own the sister character.

This way I can further adjust the design without straying Aremi too far from what you want her to be. I can have full control over her moves, appearance, and portrayal while keeping Aremi how you'd like her.

My clone character gets the firework, Aremi gets the old Up Charge?

As for the vine, I don't know how much utility the Melee Sheik whip would really have. That said, if you want it, I don't see the problem either. Nothing wrong with a novelty/goofy easter egg move every now and then.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
I mainly added the Back Special and accompanying Hyper/Hypermax since you'd previously added a Back Tilt. I'd figured that was meant to be the intent but wasn't entirely sure. Honestly, I think it'd be fine though it does make things a little trickier for characters who have movement-based side specials. Sort of like how some people accidentally self-destruct with Terry in Smash due to the placement of Crack Shoot. I personally don't think it's really that big a deal and if that expectation is made from the start (as opposed to Smash throwing it in on a single character post launch) I think people that pick the game up will just learn/grow accustomed to it. It is something to keep in mind though since it could potentially throw a lot of players off.

That actually leads right into the next point regarding Aremi. I know you said you didn't want to have any clones in the game, but with the sheer amount of moves you've tried squeezing into her, why not make an exception here? We could give her a semi-clone sister character (potentially literally even.) Any moves you absolutely want Aremi to have she can take, and the excess could go to the other. My Luigi to your Mario so to speak. Likewise, with the character rights, I could own the sister character.

This way I can further adjust the design without straying Aremi too far from what you want her to be. I can have full control over her moves, appearance, and portrayal while keeping Aremi how you'd like her.

My clone character gets the firework, Aremi gets the old Up Charge?

As for the vine, I don't know how much utility the Melee Sheik whip would really have. That said, if you want it, I don't see the problem either. Nothing wrong with a novelty/goofy easter egg move every now and then.
Hmm a clone could work, would increase the roster, don't know how to make the clone justified, didn't intend on making a sibling. Maybe since the game involves minor interdimensional travel, there could be parallels characters with minor tweaks to their gameplan, kind of like the Binding of Isaac's tainted characters. Would be more interesting than echo fighters.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Hmm a clone could work, would increase the roster, don't know how to make the clone justified, didn't intend on making a sibling. Maybe since the game involves minor interdimensional travel, there could be parallels characters with minor tweaks to their gameplan, kind of like the Binding of Isaac's tainted characters. Would be more interesting than echo fighters.
I mean, the clone would be justified by being a semi-clone. There'd be some shared moves but plenty of differences between the two. Think more Luigi, Falco, Roy over a minimal difference echo fighter like Daisy.

While I did also say "potentially literally", I meant sister character in terms of similarity. She wouldn't necessarily actually be Aremi's sibling.

As for further clone style characters, I do think it's something you could always keep on the table, but I'm only suggesting the one for now as a means of compromise for both the issue of character rights and creative differences regarding appearance and playstyle.

You did say I was free to use Aremi, which I'm grateful for, but making a separate character using the same base design just works better for my purposes. I don't want to run into a situation where I make changes to Aremi that you might be against.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
I mean, the clone would be justified by being a semi-clone. There'd be some shared moves but plenty of differences between the two. Think more Luigi, Falco, Roy over a minimal difference echo fighter like Daisy.

While I did also say "potentially literally", I meant sister character in terms of similarity. She wouldn't necessarily actually be Aremi's sibling.

As for further clone style characters, I do think it's something you could always keep on the table, but I'm only suggesting the one for now as a means of compromise for both the issue of character rights and creative differences regarding appearance and playstyle.

You did say I was free to use Aremi, which I'm grateful for, but making a separate character using the same base design just works better for my purposes. I don't want to run into a situation where I make changes to Aremi that you might be against.
Good point, im glad we could form a compromise, I am at that point where I am just ironing out bugs, so once some sprites are done I can just code a moveset.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
When the creative juices flow, they really flow it seems. I don't know what your outline for the story is, but I came up with something.

First things first, I'm working on a bulkier, more tiger like redesign of EPSILON like you originally wanted. They'd be a bit bigger but could still be quite light for a glass cannon style of character. They would change into a more aggressive bruiser/rushdown hybrid as a result. I know you currently have them as a zoner, but I also noticed they only have a single, slow projectile which doesn't really match a zoning style at all. If they had other zoning tools to compliment it, then that could work but that comes later.

So, completely divorced from the storylines of the individual characters I came up with a vague enough ending scenario to fit into the overall story. LAMBDA and EPSILON are bound to meet and clash at some point, right? So, for a canon ending, we could have the two fight each other, but it ends in a stalemate where both of them wind up severely damaged.

This would lead into the sequel where both are in hiding while being rebuilt but now have others working under them to accomplish their goals/interests.

On Epsilon's side you would have a skilled roboticist/mechanic who while figuring out how to repair it, would also use what they learn to create an android partly based on Epsilon itself. I don't know if I should give them a different name, but for now I'll refer to her as Epsilon II. This would be where my more humanoid design comes into play as she would now be her own character. Last but not least would be the other inspiration for Ep II's design; the cyborg, ninja, bishounen anime cat man- also still unnamed.

On Lambda's side we have Lady Mercury and a "space elf". As you might have guessed Lady Mercury is pretty much just recycling/continuing my design for what was once, Curies. My design was a departure from what you intended but I kept coming up with ideas for her, so I just made her my own character. Names still pending for both.

Then I also have two unaffiliated characters. Erycles who I posted a while back and another new character; a big wrestling bird man species based on eagles, owls, and griffins.

I'll give you a better idea of what they're like once I get around to drawing them, but for now some basic descriptions.

Lady Mercury is still largely based on the design I drew up a few pages back. As for background, I've made her an artificial being created by a still undecided race. Point being, she grew to resent her creators (also still ironing out the details) and deserted her home planet eventually happening upon LAMBDA and choosing to work with him for her own self gain. She's not inherently bad per say, being more of a gray character, but her resentment and bitterness have made her a bit jaded, and she has no problem getting her hands dirty if it serves her interests.

Her playstyle would of course revolve around morphing her limbs into various shapes and hardening or liquefying as needed.

Her counterpart on Epsilon's side is Epsilon II. Also created but being loyal and having genuine care for her creator and friends. Her playstyle would be that of a speedy zoner. She would inherit/have some moves inspired by Epsilon but would for the most part be her own character.

Her creator is a young but skilled roboticist of a humanoid, horned octopi-like species called the Takoni. She has a smaller frame and would fight by piloting a mech. The Takoni are frail but can generate electricity which she uses to power her mech, essentially serving as its battery. For playstyle, think of characters like Tron Bonne and R.O.B.

She found the damaged Epsilon on a planet inhabited by a cat-like race. With her was her bodyguard/escort, the aforementioned cyborg ninja. He's not actually a cyborg, just wearing a high-tech suit. He wields an energy blade and overall looks similar to the Miqo'te race from Final Fantasy. Playstyle wise, think of characters like Strider and Iron Man in Marvel vs Capcom.

His counterpart on Lambda's side is the space elf. Basically, a fantasy elf but in a space setting. His name is also undecided, but appearance wise he has pale blue skin, long ears, long platinum blonde hair, and a form fitting, black, full body suit (covered by a long cloak when outside of combat.) Playstyle wise, think of a combination of Link and an FE swordie, but high tech/space fantasy. Also, he's struggling with insanity. Again, think of Link, but with a little Vega (/Claw from Street Fighter) thrown in and working for the dark side. He can act composed for the most part but when entering battle, he lets loose.

The birb wrestler is like a combo of Zangief and T. Hawk (Street Fighter), Tizoc (Garou), and Captain Falcon.

Also note, that as all of these are my own concepts from the onset, I do claim rights to them all, but as you did before, I give you full right to use them for future projects related to Sigma Busters.

I know that's a lot of characters I just dropped on you, especially after my own warnings to keep the scope down, but I had to get my ideas down while they were fresh. That said, I've no intent on trying to squeeze them into the current project plan. They are purely hypothetical sequel characters if you're willing to use them. Plus, I don't want to add too much in order to balance them with further additions from your end.

Aside from Samson and the Myken Queen, have you come up with any other potential ideas?
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
When the creative juices flow, they really flow it seems. I don't know what your outline for the story is, but I came up with something.

First things first, I'm working on a bulkier, more tiger like redesign of EPSILON like you originally wanted. They'd be a bit bigger but could still be quite light for a glass cannon style of character. They would change into a more aggressive bruiser/rushdown hybrid as a result. I know you currently have them as a zoner, but I also noticed they only have a single, slow projectile which doesn't really match a zoning style at all. If they had other zoning tools to compliment it, then that could work but that comes later.

So, completely divorced from the storylines of the individual characters I came up with a vague enough ending scenario to fit into the overall story. LAMBDA and EPSILON are bound to meet and clash at some point, right? So, for a canon ending, we could have the two fight each other, but it ends in a stalemate where both of them wind up severely damaged.

This would lead into the sequel where both are in hiding while being rebuilt but now have others working under them to accomplish their goals/interests.

On Epsilon's side you would have a skilled roboticist/mechanic who while figuring out how to repair it, would also use what they learn to create an android partly based on Epsilon itself. I don't know if I should give them a different name, but for now I'll refer to her as Epsilon II. This would be where my more humanoid design comes into play as she would now be her own character. Last but not least would be the other inspiration for Ep II's design; the cyborg, ninja, bishounen anime cat man- also still unnamed.

On Lambda's side we have Lady Mercury and a "space elf". As you might have guessed Lady Mercury is pretty much just recycling/continuing my design for what was once, Curies. My design was a departure from what you intended but I kept coming up with ideas for her, so I just made her my own character. Names still pending for both.

Then I also have two unaffiliated characters. Erycles who I posted a while back and another new character; a big wrestling bird man species based on eagles, owls, and griffins.

I'll give you a better of what they're like once I get around to drawing them, but for now some basic descriptions.

Lady Mercury is still largely based on the design I drew up a few pages back. As for background, I've made her an artificial being created by a still undecided race. Point being, she grew to resent her creators (also still ironing out the details) and deserted her home planet eventually happening upon LAMBDA and choosing to work with him for her own self gain. She's not inherently bad per say, being more of a gray character, but her resentment and bitterness have made her a bit jaded, and she has no problem getting her hands dirty if it serves her interests.

Her playstyle would of course revolve around morphing her limbs into various shapes and hardening or liquefying as needed.

Her counterpart on Epsilon's side is Epsilon II. Also created but being loyal and having genuine care for her creator and friends. Her playstyle would be that of a speedy zoner. She would inherit/have some moves inspired by Epsilon but would for the most part be her own character.

Her creator is a young but skilled roboticist of a humanoid, horned octopi-like species called the Takoni. She has a smaller frame and would fight by piloting a mech. The Takoni are frail but can generate electricity which she uses to power her mech, essentially serving as its battery. For playstyle, think of characters like Tron Bonne and R.O.B.

She found the damaged Epsilon on a planet inhabited by a cat-like race. With her was her bodyguard/escort, the aforementioned cyborg ninja. He's not actually a cyborg, just wearing a high-tech suit. He wields an energy blade and overall looks similar to the Miqo'te race from Final Fantasy. Playstyle wise, think of characters like Strider and Iron Man in Marvel vs Capcom.

His counterpart on Lambda's side is the space elf. Basically, a fantasy elf but in a space setting. His name is also undecided, but appearance wise he has pale blue skin, long ears, long platinum blonde hair, and a form fitting, black, full body suit (covered by a long cloak when outside of combat.) Playstyle wise, think of a combination of Link and an FE swordie, but high tech/space fantasy. Also, he's struggling with insanity. Again, think of Link, but with a little Vega (/Claw from Street Fighter) thrown in and working for the dark side. He can act composed for the most part but when entering battle, he lets loose.

The birb wrestler is like a combo of Zangief and T. Hawk (Street Fighter), Tizoc (Garou), and Captain Falcon.

Also note, that as all of these are my own concepts from the onset, I do claim rights to them all, but as you did before, I give you full right to use them for future projects related to Sigma Busters.

I know that's a lot of characters I just dropped on you, especially after my own warnings to keep the scope down, but I had to get my ideas down while they were fresh. That said, I've no intent on trying to squeeze them into the current project plan. They are purely hypothetical sequel characters if you're willing to use them. Plus, I don't want to add too much in order to balance them with further additions from your end.

Aside from Samson and the Myken Queen, have you come up with any other potential ideas?
This is all good, a bit overboard for now, but they could also work for a story mode 2, Guilty Gear Strive had a story mode 2 featuring all the new dlc characters (except for Bridget unfortunatly)

Also Samson may be cut, I couldn't get him to make sense in this engine, he was intended to be the "summoner" who is a star shaped energy being that summons other stars to buff him. My original idea was someone named Primordia who was a person made from stardust who made stars to buff herself. Both concepts were a bit too complicated for this game.

As of right now I also had this character concept for what is essentially a species made out of a toxic mist and they need to wear a special suit to survive off planet. They are a hacker-type character who gives other characters viruses to leech off of them.

EDIT: BTW said hacker is treated as sleek Neo esc character, not a tin-man in a suit.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Been thinking, I don't know how to differetiant the input for a Hyper special and the input for the Super special. I don't want to add too many buttons, I want the controls to be easy to remember. Like for instance Tilt attacks will now have their own stick to use, it's the default now. Charge Attacks are activates by pressing both neutral and special buttons at the same time. And Hyper attacks are activated by pressing shield and the associated special button combination as the same time.
 
Last edited:

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Been thinking, I don't know how to differetiant the input for a Hyper special and the input for the Super special
In traditional fighters it's a two button input. The motion for the special plus two attack buttons.

Supers in some games operate the same way but with more complex motions.

I think I touched on it a few pages back, but for our purposes I think assigning meter to it's own button would be best due to the lack of multiple button strengths for attacks. It would basically act as a modifier, only working when pressed with another input.

So, for Hypers (EX moves) you could have Direction + Special Button + Meter Button. You'd press all 3 at the same time.

Then, for Hypermax (Super) you could have Direction + Attack Button + Meter Button.

If you still want to include motion inputs, then simply replace the single direction with a quarter circle forward, back, forward half circle, back, DP and reverse DP. That's 6 inputs to work with to cover multiple Hypers and Supers. Then you still use the same two button assignments.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
In traditional fighters it's a two button input. The motion for the special plus two attack buttons.

Supers in some games operate the same way but with more complex motions.

I think I touched on it a few pages back, but for our purposes I think assigning meter to it's own button would be best due to the lack of multiple button strengths for attacks. It would basically act as a modifier, only working when pressed with another input.

So, for Hypers (EX moves) you could have Direction + Special Button + Meter Button. You'd press all 3 at the same time.

Then, for Hypermax (Super) you could have Direction + Attack Button + Meter Button.

If you still want to include motion inputs, then simply replace the single direction with a quarter circle forward, back, forward half circle, back, DP and reverse DP. That's 6 inputs to work with to cover multiple Hypers and Supers. Then you still use the same two button assignments.
If we're not having Final Smash esc hypers then that could work. BTW the idea making the other stick be the Tilt stick by default comes from me trying out that control scheme for myself in competitive Smash, more intuitive than I thought
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
If we're not having Final Smash esc hypers then that could work.
Could you elaborate what you mean?

BTW the idea making the other stick be the Tilt stick by default comes from me trying out that control scheme for myself in competitive Smash, more intuitive than I thought
Honestly, I assumed that was already the case. That said, I'd still leave the option for using the left stick and attack button. Better to give players more options.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
Could you elaborate what you mean?


Honestly, I assumed that was already the case. That said, I'd still leave the option for using the left stick and attack button. Better to give players more options.
Previously when your Hyper meter is completely full, you could activate a single Hypermax attack but performing the neutral hyper attack function, so everyone had 4 Hyper specials and 1 hypermax attack they can use in battle. Now due to the way attacks are set up I don't know if adding those attacks to can make the game too complicated
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Previously when your Hyper meter is completely full, you could activate a single Hypermax attack but performing the neutral hyper attack function, so everyone had 4 Hyper specials and 1 hypermax attack they can use in battle. Now due to the way attacks are set up I don't know if adding those attacks to can make the game too complicated
I don't see why that'd be to complex really. Hypers are just EX moves which are pretty standard across the board for fighting games. Same thing for Hypermax, just Supers with a different name. Plenty of games have multiple supers per character as well. Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, Marvel vs Capcom, Guilty Gear, KOF, etc. While this is going to be a platform fighter, this is an area where I think it's best to look at the traditional side of things. The way Smash handles its Final Smashes just isn't good in any capacity unfortunately.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
I don't see why that'd be to complex really. Hypers are just EX moves which are pretty standard across the board for fighting games. Same thing for Hypermax, just Supers with a different name. Plenty of games have multiple supers per character as well. Street Fighter, Darkstalkers, Marvel vs Capcom, Guilty Gear, KOF, etc. While this is going to be a platform fighter, this is an area where I think it's best to look at the traditional side of things. The way Smash handles its Final Smashes just isn't good in any capacity unfortunately.
Good point, I do think having every special having an enhanced version is a good idea, but I am a bit unsure if we should have 2 levels of hypers, that is the sole aspect of your rework that I'm iffy about, the other stuff like having Back Specials, is a very clever evolution of my concept for a Back Tilt and I want to keep that alongside each attack having a enhanced version you can input.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
so once some sprites are done I can just code a moveset.
You're going to be waiting on that for quite a while chief. I've said it before but do bear in mind, that a single move/action requires multiple sprites (plus effect sprites on top of that depending on the action.) A single sprite is going to take a couple (up to several) hours to create depending on the complexity of the characters design and the movement/posing trying to be achieved. Multiply that by the however many sprites are in a characters full kit. Then multiply that by the number of characters. That's thousands of hours of work for a team that you don't have.

I can't consistently work on Sigma Busters every day and when I do, I might not have all that much time. Getting the completed sprites out for a single action is currently looking like a 1-to-2-week endeavor at best.

The other major point is that none of the character designs are even finalized yet, I still have to draw those, and run them by you for additional details/changes/corrections. Then I need to create key art for the press kit and advertising and model sheets for other artists to reference once you finally recruit them. We've got several steps to go through before full development can truly begin.

Also Samson may be cut, I couldn't get him to make sense in this engine, he was intended to be the "summoner" who is a star shaped energy being that summons other stars to buff him.
He definitely wasn't going to make it for this first game, but I think he'd be worth considering for a sequel once you workshop the concept a bit further. While I never got around to drawing him, I did have an idea for him based the Starbean name you gave for his race. He was going to be a sort of smug, Prince Peasley (Mario & Luigi) type of character.

My original idea was someone named Primordia who was a person made from stardust who made stars to buff herself. Both concepts were a bit too complicated for this game.
Funnily enough I actually have a similar idea for my project. She's not made of stardust, but the character in question is associated with it, being a sort "celestial body" personified. The latter being interpreted in two ways to inform both her appearance and powers/playstyle. In some ways she shares some similarity with Rosalina by conjuring objects that reference stuff like planetary rings, comets, etc. She's more of mage style character akin to Dr. Strange from Marvel vs Capcom as opposed to a puppeteer though.

As of right now I also had this character concept for what is essentially a species made out of a toxic mist and they need to wear a special suit to survive off planet. They are a hacker-type character who gives other characters viruses to leech off of them.

EDIT: BTW said hacker is treated as sleek Neo esc character, not a tin-man in a suit.
I feel like these are conflicting ideas to be honest. Having a character who is a hacker is fine lore/story wise, but that doesn't quite translate well into gameplay in terms of the virus aspect. There are a couple robots on the cast, but everyone else is a regular organic species. Making a Neo (you do mean Matrix Neo, right?) style character definitely gives me boss character vibes if you look to other characters also inspired by him like Wesker (Resident Evil). Where'd the tin-man comment come from btw? Not something I would have ever thought of for such a concept to begin with. Is it in reference to an existing character or trope I'm just unaware of?

The toxic mist aspect (I also see you're reusing Aremi's old concept of the special suit,) could probably go to a character based on fungi or some venomous creature. The gas/fumes on their home planet are toxic to others, but necessary for their own survival or something like that.

Good point, I do think having every special having an enhanced version is a good idea, but I am a bit unsure if we should have 2 levels of hypers, that is the sole aspect of your rework that I'm iffy about, the other stuff like having Back Specials, is a very clever evolution of my concept for a Back Tilt and I want to keep that alongside each attack having a enhanced version you can input.
Do we have two levels of hypers? You gotta be careful about the wording here, I think we're talking about different things.

The revision I suggested in the Aremi post, was to make the Hypers into more traditional EX moves.

Hypermax (Supers) would still serve their function as super moves.

The other thing I did do however, was swap around some of the moves themselves. I brought down Paralyzing Scream to a Hyper and created a normal version as a Back Special for example.

Then some of the Hypers, like Pyro Disk for example, we're radically different moves from the character's specials. This meant they couldn't be used as Hypers anymore because I'd changed Hypers to function as EX style moves. So, Pyro Disk was moved into a Hypermax (Super) slot instead.
 
Last edited:

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
You're going to be waiting on that for quite a while chief. I've said it before but do bear in mind, that a single move/action requires multiple sprites (plus effect sprites on top of that depending on the action.) A single sprite is going to take a couple (up to several) hours to create depending on the complexity of the characters design and the movement/posing trying to be achieved. Multiply that by the however many sprites are in a characters full kit. Then multiply that by the number of characters. That's thousands of hours of work for a team that you don't have.

I can't consistently work on Sigma Busters every day and when I do, I might not have all that much time. Getting the completed sprites out for a single action is currently looking like a 1-to-2-week endeavor at best.

The other major point is that none of the character designs are even finalized yet, I still have to draw those, and run them by you for additional details/changes/corrections. Then I need to create key art for the press kit and advertising and model sheets for other artists to reference once you finally recruit them. We've got several steps to go through before full development can truly begin.


He definitely wasn't going to make it for this first game, but I think he'd be worth considering for a sequel once you workshop the concept a bit further. While I never got around to drawing him, I did have an idea for him based the Starbean name you gave for his race. He was going to be a sort of smug, Prince Peasley (Mario & Luigi) type of character.


Funnily enough I actually have a similar idea for my project. She's not made of stardust, but the character in question is associated with it, being a sort "celestial body" personified. The latter being interpreted in two ways to inform both her appearance and powers/playstyle. In some ways she shares some similarity with Rosalina by conjuring objects that reference stuff like planetary rings, comets, etc. She's more of mage style character akin to Dr. Strange from Marvel vs Capcom as opposed to a puppeteer though.


I feel like these are conflicting ideas to be honest. Having a character who is a hacker is fine lore/story wise, but that doesn't quite translate well into gameplay in terms of the virus aspect. There are a couple robots on the cast, but everyone else is a regular organic species. Making a Neo (you do mean Matrix Neo, right?) style character definitely gives me boss character vibes if you look to other characters also inspired by him like Wesker (Resident Evil). Where'd the tin-man comment come from btw? Not something I would have ever thought of for such a concept to begin with. Is it in reference to an existing character or trope I'm just unaware of?

The toxic mist aspect (I also see you're reusing Aremi's old concept of the special suit,) could probably go to a character based on fungi or some venomous creature. The gas/fumes on their home planet are toxic to others, but necessary for their own survival or something like that.


Do we have two levels of hypers? You gotta be careful about the wording here, I think we're talking about different things.

The revision I suggested in the Aremi post, was to make the Hypers into more traditional EX moves.

Hypermax (Supers) would still serve their function as super moves.

The other thing I did do however, was swap around some of the moves themselves. I brought down Paralyzing Scream to a Hyper and created a normal version as a Back Special for example.

Then some of the Hypers, like Pyro Disk for example, we're radically different moves from the character's specials. This meant they couldn't be used as Hypers anymore because I'd changed Hypers to function as EX style moves. So, Pyro Disk was moved into a Hypermax (Super) slot instead.
Can you tell me how you intended the the hyper and super attacks were to be activated, I am sorta confused.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
Can you tell me how you intended the the hyper and super attacks were to be activated, I am sorta confused.
From my post earlier today:

In traditional fighters it's a two-button input. The motion for the special plus two attack buttons.

Supers in some games operate the same way but with more complex motions.

I think I touched on it a few pages back, but for our purposes I think assigning meter to it's own button would be best due to the lack of multiple button strengths for attacks. It would basically act as a modifier, only working when pressed with another input.

So, for Hypers (EX moves) you could have Direction + Special Button + Meter Button. You'd press all 3 at the same time.

Then, for Hypermax (Super) you could have Direction + Attack Button + Meter Button.

If you still want to include motion inputs, then simply replace the single direction with a quarter circle forward, back, forward half circle, back, DP and reverse DP. That's 6 inputs to work with to cover multiple Hypers and Supers. Then you still use the same two button assignments.
You'd just have to pick which button you want for meter burn.
 

Glubbfubb

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 16, 2021
Messages
3,152
From my post earlier today:


You'd just have to pick which button you want for meter burn.
That does make sense now,, I previously said the shield is also the meter button since the shield also consumes meter energy, that way using your shield has some risk as it can prevent you from using your stronger options.
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
That does make sense now,, I previously said the shield is also the meter button since the shield also consumes meter energy, that way using your shield has some risk as it can prevent you from using your stronger options.
Something like this is what I think we have so far:

sigmalayout.png
 

Kirbeh

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
2,443
Location
Somewhere Else
Switch FC
SW-7469-4510-7312
That control scheme can work, though it should be noted I am also trying to make the game work with a Gamecube controller as well, to increase controller options. Also where is the dodge button?
I thought dodge/air dodge was just going to be Shield + Direction like in Smash?

As for Gamecube controller support, I honestly think it should be a pretty low priority. It's been grandfathered into the modern day to use for Smash 4/Ultimate, but it isn't really widely supported for anything else. You're making a game that will launch on PC (more than likely through Steam, maybe through GOG and itch.io as well), not on the GC. The controller support that should be focused is Switch/PS4/PS5/Xbox as all these are Steam compatible.

GC controllers are a nice legacy option to have for die hard Melee fans but are otherwise going to be a mostly unused novelty option for the vast majority of players. I like the GC controller and I'm not opposed to adding support down the line, but the priority should be given to modern controllers as that's what most players will have access to and be using.

Otherwise, it should technically be an easy fix so long as you don't try adding more actions that require their own buttons. In which case making a separate button for dodge may not be the best idea. Did you intend for it function a particular way where being mapped to shield is a problem?

gclayout.png
 
Top Bottom