Sigma Busters: Official Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

The issue is that shielding costs meter, and I don't want accidental meter wasting, that would be frustrating.

Isn't that even more reason to make the change then? Aren't players at greater risk of wasting meter by briefly bringing up shield when trying to perform hyper specials and hypermax moves? Plus, if shield is meant to cost meter, why is dodging exempt from this? If you want to tie both offensive and defensive utilities to the same meter, shouldn't it all be uniform?

I think having a traditional shield/guard break that's separate from offensive meter usage is better unless you actually further change how dodging and other defensive mechanics work.

Tying the shield to meter makes sense if you want players to think more strategically about meter usage, but if dodging is exempt then it's just going to encourage constant rolling more than even in Smash. Plus, if shield costs meter anyway that's already additional meter usage eating into what players will have wanted to save for their hypers.

I think you've either got to revert to a Smash shield or actually commit to defensive mechanics costing meter as a whole. Otherwise, this halfway approach feels kind of clunky. Like, if dodging gets worse each time like Smash anyway, why not just make it cost meter? Let dodging stay as a consistent invulnerability option but give it a cost so there's more risk/reward thinking involved.

I had a similar train of thought for my own project, but in my case, I have two sets of defense options. Both the Smash shield and a traditional guard system.

Copy/pasting from my design doc:

Guard & Barrier

Guarding

• You can press [] to guard.
• A standing guard will allow you to block standing attacks, overheads, and aerial attacks.
• You can guard while crouching to block low attacks and standing attacks but will be susceptible to overheads and aerials.
• Guarding will only block attacks from the front, you can still be attacked from behind or be hit with a cross up.
• Guarding will reduce damage taken, but won't completely nullify it, you will still take chip damage.

Mana Barrier

• You can press [] to put up a barrier.
• The barrier will block all incoming attacks and nullify all damage but costs mana to use.
• While the barrier is up mana will steadily drain. Absorbing attacks will drain it faster, with the mana consumption scaling based on the attacks blocked.
• When all mana is consumed, the barrier can no longer be used.
• If mana runs out while the barrier is up, and while being attacked, the barrier will shatter and the defending character will receive 1.5x the damage of the last hit, as well as 1.5x the knockback.

The idea here was to allow for a strong defense tool like the Smash shield but give it a cost to make it less desirable to use constantly (in my game barrier shares a resource with the wave dash equivalent and ex moves so you have to manage its use for offense, defense and movement.) However, even without the barrier, players can still use a traditional guard that carries higher risk but ensures that they aren't completely helpless. Dodging is also tied to the guard but functions less like Smash and more like a roll in KOF with only brief invulnerability at the beginning instead of the entire animation.

These aren't suggestions for Sigma Busters btw, just using my own project as an example with some reasoning for why it is the way it is.

For Sigma Busters, I think you could even toy around with removing the Smash Bros. grounded dodge entirely with players relying on the shield for its full coverage and the burst movement from wave dashing to quickly get out of harm's way.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Isn't that even more reason to make the change then? Aren't players at greater risk of wasting meter by briefly bringing up shield when trying to perform hyper specials and hypermax moves? Plus, if shield is meant to cost meter, why is dodging exempt from this? If you want to tie both offensive and defensive utilities to the same meter, shouldn't it all be uniform?

I think having a traditional shield/guard break that's separate from offensive meter usage is better unless you actually further change how dodging and other defensive mechanics work.

Tying the shield to meter makes sense if you want players to think more strategically about meter usage, but if dodging is exempt then it's just going to encourage constant rolling more than even in Smash. Plus, if shield costs meter anyway that's already additional meter usage eating into what players will have wanted to save for their hypers.

I think you've either got to revert to a Smash shield or actually commit to defensive mechanics costing meter as a whole. Otherwise, this halfway approach feels kind of clunky. Like, if dodging gets worse each time like Smash anyway, why not just make it cost meter? Let dodging stay as a consistent invulnerability option but give it a cost so there's more risk/reward thinking involved.

I had a similar train of thought for my own project, but in my case, I have two sets of defense options. Both the Smash shield and a traditional guard system.

Copy/pasting from my design doc:

Guard & Barrier

Guarding

• You can press [] to guard.
• A standing guard will allow you to block standing attacks, overheads, and aerial attacks.
• You can guard while crouching to block low attacks and standing attacks but will be susceptible to overheads and aerials.
• Guarding will only block attacks from the front, you can still be attacked from behind or be hit with a cross up.
• Guarding will reduce damage taken, but won't completely nullify it, you will still take chip damage.

Mana Barrier

• You can press [] to put up a barrier.
• The barrier will block all incoming attacks and nullify all damage but costs mana to use.
• While the barrier is up mana will steadily drain. Absorbing attacks will drain it faster, with the mana consumption scaling based on the attacks blocked.
• When all mana is consumed, the barrier can no longer be used.
• If mana runs out while the barrier is up, and while being attacked, the barrier will shatter and the defending character will receive 1.5x the damage of the last hit, as well as 1.5x the knockback.

The idea here was to allow for a strong defense tool like the Smash shield but give it a cost to make it less desirable to use constantly (in my game barrier shares a resource with the wave dash equivalent and ex moves so you have to manage its use for offense, defense and movement.) However, even without the barrier, players can still use a traditional guard that carries higher risk but ensures that they aren't completely helpless. Dodging is also tied to the guard but functions less like Smash and more like a roll in KOF with only brief invulnerability at the beginning instead of the entire animation.

These aren't suggestions for Sigma Busters btw, just using my own project as an example with some reasoning for why it is the way it is.

For Sigma Busters, I think you could even toy around with removing the Smash Bros. grounded dodge entirely with players relying on the shield for its full coverage and the burst movement from wave dashing to quickly get out of harm's way.

Honestly yeah I could cut spotdodges, and rolling is just a better wavedash so it's inclusion is not neccasary, it should be noted the meter has 6 segments, and to use a shield you have to consume one of these segments. Maybe rolling could basically be wavedashing, just with a more distinct animation. A low profile ground burst movement option is always good to have

Now the question is about air dodging, I feel like with no ledges having directional airdodges is key to have, since some characters use them as a third jump. But I don't know if it's valuable enough to justify meter usage.

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly yeah I could cut spotdodges, and rolling is just a better wavedash so it's inclusion is not neccasary, it should be noted the meter has 6 segments, and to use a shield you have to consume one of these segments. Maybe rolling could basically be wavedashing, just with a more distinct animation. A low profile ground burst movement option is always good to have

Now the question is about air dodging, I feel like with no ledges having directional airdodges is key to have, since some characters use them as a third jump. But I don't know if it's valuable enough to justify meter usage.

I mean, that wouldn't really necessitate cutting spot dodges, I'm just saying that if you're going to make defensive options cost meter, you need to account for it in their actual function. With that in mind, the segments make even less sense to me if this is the case. If shielding consumes one segment, how does that work exactly? One segment per attack absorbed? Wouldn't you lose most or all of your meter defending from a single interaction?

My honest opinion on the matter: as things currently stand you should just keep a Smash styled shield. Forcing the meter cost on shield with no other added benefit and a separation of dodging just feels clunky and different for the sake of it.

There's some more fine tuning and smaller experimentation you could try to make shields feel a little different, but otherwise, keeping the shield/dodge/air dodge system from Smash seems like the best option if you don't have a concrete idea for additional defensive options.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I mean, that wouldn't really necessitate cutting spot dodges, I'm just saying that if you're going to make defensive options cost meter, you need to account for it in their actual function. With that in mind, the segments make even less sense to me if this is the case. If shielding consumes one segment, how does that work exactly? One segment per attack absorbed? Wouldn't you lose most or all of your meter defending from a single interaction?

My honest opinion on the matter: as things currently stand you should just keep a Smash styled shield. Forcing the meter cost on shield with no other added benefit and a separation of dodging just feels clunky and different for the sake of it.

There's some more fine tuning and smaller experimentation you could try to make shields feel a little different, but otherwise, keeping the shield/dodge/air dodge system from Smash seems like the best option if you don't have a concrete idea for additional defensive options.

I just want the meter to have more purpose than just powering special moves, to add more dimensions to battling, i'll think more about it. Maybe I could use your idea of the shield initially being a block/parry. In my eyes the block will only guard from the direction your facing and won't fully protect you from damage, absorbing about 80% of the damage your would of gotton, and you will be pushed back if you do block, based on the traction of the character. You can parry on the frame of attacking to nullify all damage and knockback, but that is again a frame perfect input so its risky. You can use meter to enhance it into a more durable sheild which can protect from all sides and nullifies all damage, but damaging the shield too much stuns you in place. How does that sound?

BTW I am making good progress on the game, just want the gravity to work just right. Anyway, I'm looking to polish Kalin's kit, any suggestions to improve it?

 

[Kirbeh]

I just want the meter to have more purpose than just powering special moves, to add more dimensions to battling, i'll think more about it. Maybe I could use your idea of the shield initially being a block/parry. In my eyes the block will only guard from the direction your facing and won't fully protect you from damage, absorbing about 80% of the damage your would of gotton, and you will be pushed back if you do block, based on the traction of the character. You can parry on the frame of attacking to nullify all damage and knockback, but that is again a frame perfect input so its risky. You can use meter to enhance it into a more durable sheild which can protect from all sides and nullifies all damage, but damaging the shield too much stuns you in place. How does that sound?

BTW I am making good progress on the game, just want the gravity to work just right. Anyway, I'm looking to polish Kalin's kit, any suggestions to improve it?

I quite like the pushback being tied to a character's traction actually, I think it'd be worth experimenting with that.

Otherwise for the sake of not overlapping our respective projects' mechanics too much, I am going to advise against the traditional 2D fighter blocking.

I'll see if I can come with any other ideas for the shield and defensive options. That said, I did have a different idea for meter use you could try.

Overcharge.

With Charge Attacks being Sigma Buster's equivalent to Smash attacks, I thought a potential option would be to spend meter to bypass charging. For the cost of some meter, you could instantly use the max charge version which would be called an Overcharge. The high power and quick activation would be offset by the meter cost and higher end lag than the regular version.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I quite like the pushback being tied to a character's traction actually, I think it'd be worth experimenting with that.

Otherwise for the sake of not overlapping our respective projects' mechanics too much, I am going to advise against the traditional 2D fighter blocking.

I'll see if I can come with any other ideas for the shield and defensive options. That said, I did have a different idea for meter use you could try.

Overcharge.

With Charge Attacks being Sigma Buster's equivalent to Smash attacks, I thought a potential option would be to spend meter to bypass charging. For the cost of some meter, you could instantly use the max charge version which would be called an Overcharge. The high power and quick activation would be offset by the meter cost and higher end lag than the regular version.

Yeah that could work, I'll still find other potential uses for meter usage, want at least one defensive maneuver and make it all hyper offense hell. Thanks for all the ideas.

If were both making our own projects, I would be happy to include the main character of your project in exchange for you using the main character of my work, as a sort of guest character. You can never go wrong with cross promotion.

Anyway yeah back to working on the code, and polishing Kalin's kit, any ideas for that?

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah that could work, I'll still find other potential uses for meter usage, want at least one defensive maneuver and make it all hyper offense hell. Thanks for all the ideas.

If were both making our own projects, I would be happy to include the main character of your project in exchange for you using the main character of my work, as a sort of guest character. You can never go wrong with cross promotion.

I'll keep brainstorming on defensive stuff too. A lot of current fighting games are lacking in defensive options and are a bit too hyper focused on offense, so I don't want either project to fall down that path.

As for cross promotion, I actually intended to bring that up to you whenever I post the move sets for Erycles and Guy, but since you brought it up first, I'd definitely be down for it. However, I don't know how viable it would be on your end.

The main character of my game is a human (with most of the cast being human or mostly human adjacent fantasy races). Since Sigma Busters is all about alien species and was intended to not feature human characters I don't know if you think she'd clash (unless guest characters are exempt from these rules?) The bigger issue is the overall character design. I think I mentioned a couple pages back, but while the gameplay is mostly inspired by Smash, a lot of other aspects about the game are more heavily inspired by fighting games like Skullgirls, BlazBlue, Darkstalkers, etc.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'll keep brainstorming on defensive stuff too. A lot of current fighting games are lacking in defensive options and are a bit too hyper focused on offense, so I don't want either project to fall down that path.

As for cross promotion, I actually intended to bring that up to you whenever I post the move sets for Erycles and Guy, but since you brought it up first, I'd definitely be down for it. However, I don't know how viable it would be on your end.

The main character of my game is a human (with most of the cast being human or mostly human adjacent fantasy races). Since Sigma Busters is all about alien species and was intended to not feature human characters I don't know if you think she'd clash (unless guest characters are exempt from these rules?) The bigger issue is the overall character design. I think I mentioned a couple pages back, but while the gameplay is mostly inspired by Smash, a lot of other aspects about the game are more heavily inspired by fighting games like Skullgirls, BlazBlue, Darkstalkers, etc.

In the case of guest characters, I don't mind humans as long as they match the sci-fi aesthetic I am going for, I see this potential guest character as the representative of the human species. Does that make sense to you.

Anyway I feel Kalin's Hypermaxes are a bit undercooked, may rework them heavily, any ideas to polish up her kit?

 

[Kirbeh]

In the case of guest characters, I don't mind humans as long as they match the sci-fi aesthetic I am going for, I see this potential guest character as the representative of the human species. Does that make sense to you.

Anyway I feel Kalin's Hypermaxes are a bit undercooked, may rework them heavily, any ideas to polish up her kit?

That makes enough sense, I'm just saying that since my character is not only a human but from a more fantasy setting with a more anime art style and more suggestive character designs, she'd need to be heavily redesigned to not clash with the Sigma Buster's cast.

As for Kalin, I do have some ideas that I came up with while sketching up her design, but I'm currently still working on EPSILON's and making some minor changes to the others I've already posted plus more significant changes to Chell (you'll see why once I post it.) Since you requested more finalized versions of the move sets to post to the OP, I'm working on those for the main 9 we've got so far. Once that's done, I'll do one for Kalin and finally get to Rudder.

 

[Glubbfubb]

That makes enough sense, I'm just saying that since my character is not only a human but from a more fantasy setting with a more anime art style and more suggestive character designs, she'd need to be heavily redesigned to not clash with the Sigma Buster's cast.

As for Kalin, I do have some ideas that I came up with while sketching up her design, but I'm currently still working on EPSILON's and making some minor changes to the others I've already posted plus more significant changes to Chell (you'll see why once I post it.) Since you requested more finalized versions of the move sets to post to the OP, I'm working on those for the main 9 we've got so far. Once that's done, I'll do one for Kalin and finally get to Rudder.

I get that, whatever the case may be i'll be open to any character as long as they fit the aesthetic, a few characters like Aremi and Wyrm/Tamm are more fantastical in nature so im not adverse to more fantastical fighting concepts.

 

[Kirbeh]

I get that, whatever the case may be i'll be open to any character as long as they fit the aesthetic, a few characters like Aremi and Wyrm/Tamm are more fantastical in nature so im not adverse to more fantastical fighting concepts.

It might be easier to just show you what I mean.

Had to dig around for some old art but here we have:

Spoiler

She wouldn't look like exactly like either image regardless as I've been experimenting with the overall art style and costume design, but it gets the point across. She's fantasy themed in a way that clashes with Sigma Busters' sci-fi setting and her costume's revealing nature does her no favors either.

As I said before, there's heavy influence from Darkstalkers, Skullgirls and BlazBlue in my game so while most of the cast aren't as underdressed as Vanilla, she'd clearly need a new design made with Sigma Busters in mind.

 

[Glubbfubb]

It might be easier to just show you what I mean.

Had to dig around for some old art but here we have:

Spoiler

Vanilla; a shoto/grappler hybrid, wrestling princess wearing bikini armor as a blending of both the fantasy trope and the style of costumes some female wrestlers wear. She's got bottoms on, but I censored it just in case (though the result makes it look even more suspect imo...)

She wouldn't look like exactly like either image regardless as I've been experimenting with the overall art style and costume design, but it gets the point across. She's fantasy themed in a way that clashes with Sigma Busters' sci-fi setting and her costume's revealing nature does her no favors either.

As I said before, there's heavy influence from Darkstalkers, Skullgirls and BlazBlue in my game so while most of the cast aren't as underdressed as Vanilla, she'd clearly need a new design made with Sigma Busters in mind. The setting [of Crownbout] isn't strictly medieval fantasy mind you. There is technology and even space travel, but Vanilla's kingdom leans heavily into the old fantasy anime aesthetic.

View attachment 390655
View attachment 390656

When both of our projects evolve, lets discuss this topic then. For all we know my game may be developed first and yours seconds, so scenarios could change. Lets discuss this when we reach the point.

 

[Kirbeh]

When both of our projects evolve, lets discuss this topic then. For all we know my game may be developed first and yours seconds, so scenarios could change. Lets discuss this when we reach the point.

Of course, just wanted to point out the differences in characters and setting that could potentially prove to be hurdles depending on what you want to go for. Otherwise, guests are still pretty far down the priority list for both of us.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Of course, just wanted to point out the differences in characters and setting that could potentially prove to be hurdles depending on what you want to go for. Otherwise, guests are still pretty far down the priority list for both of us.

Yeah, agree, my priority is just getting the physics just right and have offense and defense be near perfectly balanced. I'm a perfectionist on those fronts. After that it's time to make a functioning character.

BTW when I work on my character select screen, you think you can make some SF2 esc character portraits, not copy their styles, just some face portraits, that way I can make a proper menu.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Also for dealing with wanting or not wanting to use stage hazards in your brawls, there will be a switch directly in the stage select menu that determines if you want to your selected stage to have hazards, that way your don't have to go out of your way in a menu to disable them.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah, agree, my priority is just getting the physics just right and have offense and defense be near perfectly balanced. I'm a perfectionist on those fronts. After that it's time to make a functioning character.

BTW when I work on my character select screen, you think you can make some SF2 esc character portraits, not copy their styles, just some face portraits, that way I can make a proper menu.

Sooo, just a standard character select screen then? Or is there something in particular from the SF2 CSS you wanted to pay homage to?

 

[Glubbfubb]

Sooo, just a standard character select screen then? Or is there something in particular from the SF2 CSS you wanted to pay homage to?

Actually the character select screen is based off Mege Man, specifically the X games. In that game you have portraits of each boss and then an image of their location in the middle. In this game the middle screen will show the selected characters full portrait and home planet and when you select then they will jump out the screen and land on a podium in the bottom corresponding with their player position, does that makes sense and sound cool? Right now I'll just need the character face portrait.

 

[Kirbeh]

Actually the character select screen is based off Mege Man, specifically the X games. In that game you have portraits of each boss and then an image of their location in the middle. In this game the middle screen will show the selected characters full portrait and home planet and when you select then they will jump out the screen and land on a podium in the bottom corresponding with their player position, does that makes sense and sound cool? Right now I'll just need the character face portrait.

I misread that at first, but it gave me another idea.

The Mega Man X inspiration sounds fun, but it also gave me an idea for the stage select screen. The CSS and SSS could be themed after a spaceship, with the characters jumping into open pods rather than podiums. After characters are selected you go to the stage select screen which is formatted like the CSS. The planet icons are arranged around a middle section that displays the currently highlighted planet. One a planet is selected to play on, and you hit start to begin the match, the pods the characters are in will close and launch down onto the displayed planet.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I misread that at first, but it gave me another idea.

The Mega Man X inspiration sounds fun, but it also gave me an idea for the stage select screen. The CSS and SSS could be themed after a spaceship, with the characters jumping into open pods rather than podiums. After characters are selected you go to the stage select screen which is formatted like the CSS. The planet icons are arranged around a middle section that displays the currently highlighted planet. One a planet is selected to play on, and you hit start to begin the match, the pods the characters are in will close and launch down onto the displayed planet.

That could work, though keep in mind that stage select comes before character select, feels more natural in my opinion since you pick the stage then pick a character that bests works in that stage, in a game with varying stage layouts instead on 1 layout and different aestetics, this order would work and make setting up match rules easier without clogging them in a separate menu like Smash.

 

[Kirbeh]

That could work, though keep in mind that stage select comes before character select, feels more natural in my opinion since you pick the stage then pick a character that bests works in that stage, in a game with varying stage layouts instead on 1 layout and different aestetics, this order would work and make setting up match rules easier without clogging them in a separate menu like Smash.

ah ok, I suppose you could just switch the screen order then. Chose the stage first and add a display to the top of the CSS that shows the actual stage selected so the middle section can be freed up for the characters. Once players are locked it, the middle screen disappears to reveal a window showing the selected planet in the distance. The now closed pods would then get launched toward it.

 

[Glubbfubb]

ah ok, I suppose you could just switch the screen order then. Chose the stage first and add a display to the top of the CSS that shows the actual stage selected so the middle section can be freed up for the characters. Once players are locked it, the middle screen disappears to reveal a window showing the selected planet in the distance. The now closed pods would then get launched toward it.

View attachment 390659

Perfect, just perfect, exactly what I was picturing when I heard your ideas. Add some probes to determine battle options like choosing if you want hazards on or you want stock or point based battles and your golden.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Been thinking, I think I have a good "core 12/13" of sorts

Aremi
Ahab
Erycles
Guy
Chell
Levi
Whynnie
Wyrm and Tamm
Kowalski
Kalin
LAMBDA
EPSILON

I say core 13 since I think Guy is cool and I want to add him, just want more info so I can make a more logical decision on his spot of the roster. Rudder and Mytan Queen would be cool future additions, and since Mytan Queen seems to be the most conceptually complicated fighter, saving them until the time we are more experienced with roster making seems like a smart choice. All we really need is someone to be in between Rudder and Mytan Queen in terms of release order. (likely the guest character)

I feel once I make 1 or 2 characters, I will be much more experienced making more and can go by in a quick pace. Guy, seeming like a melee focused character, may be the 2nd character created after the more generalist Aremi.

Just some random thoughts on this matter.

 

[Kirbeh]

Been thinking, I think I have a good "core 12/13" of sorts

Aremi
Ahab
Erycles
Guy
Chell
Levi
Whynnie
Wyrm and Tamm
Kowalski
Kalin
LAMBDA
EPSILON

I say core 13 since I think Guy is cool and I want to add him, just want more info so I can make a more logical decision on his spot of the roster. Rudder and Mytan Queen would be cool future additions, and since Mytan Queen seems to be the most conceptually complicated fighter, saving them until the time we are more experienced with roster making seems like a smart choice. All we really need is someone to be in between Rudder and Mytan Queen in terms of release order. (likely the guest character)

I feel once I make 1 or 2 characters, I will be much more experienced making more and can go by in a quick pace. Guy, seeming like a melee focused character, may be the 2nd character created after the more generalist Aremi.

Just some random thoughts on this matter.

You forgot Weevle.

I was actually under the impression Rudder was meant to be a starter character in place of Wyrm and Tamm since we we're still going back and forth on the latter.

As for Guy, the most basic gist of his character is Captain Falcon but a grappler. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but that's the most succinct description to try and give a basic idea. I'll go into proper detail once I finish writing the rest of his post of course.

Some progress on EPISLON in the meantime. They've been one of the tougher characters to conceptualize, so I did wind up falling back on my original concept as you already saw with the most recent redesign. Move set is mostly complete, just needs the throws. I did sketch a good number of moves as well. Still trying to figure out how to design the face and hair. They're a lot less visually robotic than LAMBDA on account of the new backstory and Mega Man X influence. They lean more into the android/Reploid angle but with a cat/tiger theming of course.

I'm debating with myself on whether EP should have irises given the more androidy design. They originally didn't to match with LAMBDA but they (LAM) wound up getting different more bug-like eyes (though still of a solid color). It was also because the original face on the very first EP sketch was intended to be a screen like Eve from Wall-E. Now though, I don't know if solid blue glowing eyes like LED lights or proper eyes would be better.

Spoiler

 

[Glubbfubb]

You forgot Weevle.

I was actually under the impression Rudder was meant to be a starter character in place of Wyrm and Tamm since we we're still going back and forth on the latter.

As for Guy, the most basic gist of his character is Captain Falcon but a grappler. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but that's the most succinct description to try and give a basic idea. I'll go into proper detail once I finish writing the rest of his post of course.

Some progress on EPISLON in the meantime. They've been one of the tougher characters to conceptualize, so I did wind up falling back on my original concept as you already saw with the most recent redesign. Move set is mostly complete, just needs the throws. I did sketch a good number of moves as well. Still trying to figure out how to design the face and hair. They're a lot less visually robotic than LAMBDA on account of the new backstory and Mega Man X influence. They lean more into the android/Reploid angle but with a cat/tiger theming of course.

I'm debating with myself on whether EP should have irises given the more androidy design. They originally didn't to match with LAMBDA but they wound up getting different more bug-like eyes though still of a solid color. It was also because the original face on the very first EP sketch was intended to be a screen like Eve from Wall-E. Now though, I don't know if solid blue glowing eyes like LED lights or proper eyes would be better.

Spoiler

View attachment 390665

Well if we're keeping Ahab, that may make the two sorta repetitive, and we already have two pairs of heavily linked characters in EPSILON+LAMBDA and Whynnie+Levi, I'll likely do either Guy or Erycles, depending on who is more developed, or I may do both, I don't know really, Weevle is staying though, just forgot about her on the list.

Also EP looks cool, nice mix of the physique of ZSS but the posing of Captain Falcon, I like those two's archetype, don't know what to call that archetype though, not exactly brawlers, rushdowns, or bruisers, moreso Acrobatics, anyway design looks cool and I can't wait to see the rework.

 

[Kirbeh]

Well if we're keeping Ahab, that may make the two sorta repetitive, and we already have two pairs of heavily linked characters in EPSILON+LAMBDA and Whynnie+Levi, I'll likely do either Guy or Erycles, depending on who is more developed, or I may do both, I don't know really, Weevle is staying though, just forgot about her on the list.

Also EP looks cool, nice mix of the physique of ZSS but the posing of Captain Falcon, I like those two's archetype, don't know what to call that archetype though, not exactly brawlers, rushdowns, or bruisers, moreso Acrobatics, anyway design looks cool and I can't wait to see the rework.

I don't think it would honestly. Ahab is a boxer with average ground speed, good air game and an (assumed) focus on short combos and juggles, right?

Guy could technically fall into the bruiser category as well, but their focus is on chaining throws and specials with strong single hit finishers.

I guess if I were to draw more direct comparisons to Smash. Ahab seems like a middle ground between Little Mac and Dedede while Guy is like a middle ground between Falcon and Incineroar.

I'm personally in favor of keeping Ahab on the base roster as I've said before since they were one of the original concepts to begin with. I'll leave it up to you to decide who among Guy, Deran and Erycles you want to prioritize though. They're all heavies with some bruiser qualities but they differ in gameplan quite a bit so I'll be up to whether you want the traditional grappler (Guy,) the mid-range half-grappler (Erycles,) or the trapper (Deran.)

 

[Glubbfubb]

I don't think it would honestly. Ahab is a boxer with average ground speed, good air game and an (assumed) focus on short combos and juggles, right?

Guy could technically fall into the bruiser category as well, but their focus is on chaining throws and specials with strong single hit finishers.

I guess if I were to draw more direct comparisons to Smash. Ahab seems like a middle ground between Little Mac and Dedede while Guy is like a middle ground between Falcon and Incineroar.

I'm personally in favor of keeping Ahab on the base roster as I've said before since they were one of the original concepts to begin with. I'll leave it up to you to decide who among Guy, Deran and Erycles you want to prioritize though. They're all heavies with some bruiser qualities but they differ in gameplan quite a bit so I'll be up to whether you want the traditional grappler (Guy,) the mid-range half-grappler (Erycles,) or the trapper (Deran.)

I'm not talking about Guy and Ahab, I'm talking about Rudder and Ahab, since their both heavyweight bruisers based off aquatic animals. Ahab has the more experimental kit while Rudder has the more conceptually solid kit imo, so both have equal merits. If I were to choose Guy over Erycles, Guy would honestly be the better one to include since we're lacking in avian fighters.

Also random development gag, Rudder was orignal a character in the previous project I was working on, Alchemons, basically a combo of Yokai Watch and those alchemy apps where you combine 2 concepts to make a new concept, a few other characters were reworked from that original concept (Aremi was one of said characters, being the Alchemon of Insomnia, long stoey) Rudder was part of a duo with another character named Vespa, a giant hornet queen. Since they represented Tsunamis and Earthquakes respectively they had some sumo inspirations, obviously Rudder doesn't have those anymore, but a sumo queen bee with earthquake powers is something to visit down the line imo, just a lot of cool intersecting concepts i like to explore. Alchemons transitioned to this game since one of the guys that helped me, DrCoelloCephalo was an EDP445, and I'll stop at that. Anyway yeah this was just me talking about the weird history of this game. Some other concepts were the Sun Alchemon that was literally a Jojo reference in the shape of a sun god and a bratty baby in a judges atire representing Law, among other ideas.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'm not talking about Guy and Ahab, I'm talking about Rudder and Ahab, since their both heavyweight bruisers based off aquatic animals. Ahab has the more experimental kit while Rudder has the more conceptually solid kit imo, so both have equal merits. If I were to choose Guy over Erycles, Guy would honestly be the better one to include since we're lacking in avian fighters.

Also random development gag, Rudder was orignal a character in the previous project I was working on, Alchemons, basically a combo of Yokai Watch and those alchemy apps where you combine 2 concepts to make a new concept, a few other characters were reworked from that original concept (Aremi was one of said characters, being the Alchemon of Insomnia, long stoey) Rudder was part of a duo with another character named Vespa, a giant hornet queen. Since they represented Tsunamis and Earthquakes respectively they had some sumo inspirations, obviously Rudder doesn't have those anymore, but a sumo queen bee with earthquake powers is something to visit down the line imo, just a lot of cool intersecting concepts i like to explore. Alchemons transitioned to this game since one of the guys that helped me, DrCoelloCephalo was an EDP445, and I'll stop at that. Anyway yeah this was just me talking about the weird history of this game. Some other concepts were the Sun Alchemon that was literally a Jojo reference in the shape of a sun god and a bratty baby in a judges atire representing Law, among other ideas.

My bad, I thought you were comparing Ahab to Guy.

And yes, I do remember you mentioning before that Aremi had originally been from a different project, didn't know the same was true for Rudder though. Now that you mention the other concepts though, I feel like mixing the Jojo posing sun god with your previous interest in Orion could maybe make for a cool concept. Orion has some ties to Apollo and Helios in mythology, so I think there's a potential jumping off point if you try blending them together.

The sumo queen bee is honestly another funny coincidence when it comes to our ideas.

Sumo is pretty much a men's sport, with women being barred from competition and ceremony. Women's sumo has and still does exist though in a mostly amateur/unofficial capacity in most cases.

Naturally most sumo inspired characters in fighting games are men, so I tried my hand at flipping the archetype on its head by designing a female sumo wrestler. Not only is the character a woman, but her background is actually based in judo so she's quite lean. This was actually for a different more traditional 2D fighter project I wanted to make. I did however make another female sumo (though a much rougher concept) character based on beetles (like the hercules and rhinoceros beetles) for my own platfighter.

Random concept tangent of my own, but I just thought it was neat that in a roundabout way, we both had somewhat similar ideas.

 

[Glubbfubb]

My bad, I thought you were comparing Ahab to Guy.

And yes, I do remember you mentioning before that Aremi had originally been from a different project, didn't know the same was true for Rudder though. Now that you mention the other concepts though, I feel like mixing the Jojo posing sun god with your previous interest in Orion could maybe make for a cool concept. Orion has some ties to Apollo and Helios in mythology, so I think there's a potential jumping off point if you try blending them together.

The sumo queen bee is honestly another funny coincidence when it comes to our ideas.

Sumo is pretty much a men's sport, with women being barred from competition and ceremony. Women's sumo has and still does exist though in a mostly amateur/unofficial capacity in most cases.

Naturally most sumo inspired characters in fighting games are men, so I tried my hand at flipping the archetype on its head by designing a female sumo wrestler. Not only is the character a woman, but her background is actually based in judo so she's quite lean. This was actually for a different more traditional 2D fighter project I wanted to make. I did however make another female sumo (though a much rougher concept) character based on beetles (like the hercules and rhinoceros beetles) for my own platfighter.

Random concept tangent of my own, but I just thought it was neat that in a roundabout way, we both had somewhat similar ideas.

Vespa being a queen bee sumo just came from some convergence of some concepts. Earth is heavy, Asian Hornets usually nest in the earth, the queen he is usually larger, sumos are heavy, large and in change, sumo queen bee. There were also some odd bee themed events around the time of conceptualization, it was when the Helluva Boss episode that introduce Queen Bea/Beezelbub got released, I got a shiny female Combee, and I beaten Queen Bee in Terraria, hence I had bees on my mind, true story.

Interesting tangent of your own, and in case your wondering, this Jojo sun god idea was based off Hamon, ie the part 1 and 2 fighting styles that used sunlight, not stands.

Ok sleep, may conceptualize a kit for Vespa for the funnies, since tomorrow is a boring day.

 

[Kirbeh]

Vespa being a queen bee sumo just came from some convergence of some concepts. Earth is heavy, Asian Hornets usually nest in the earth, the queen he is usually larger, sumos are heavy, large and in change, sumo queen bee. There were also some odd bee themed events around the time of conceptualization, it was when the Helluva Boss episode that introduce Queen Bea/Beezelbub got released, I got a shiny female Combee, and I beaten Queen Bee in Terraria, hence I had bees on my mind, true story.

Interesting tangent of your own, and in case your wondering, this Jojo sun god idea was based off Hamon, ie the part 1 and 2 fighting styles that used sunlight, not stands.

Ok sleep, may conceptualize a kit for Vespa for the funnies, since tomorrow is a boring day.

I'm going to head to bed too, no work tomorrow since I'm out sick rn but I should probably get some sleep. Good night.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'm going to head to bed too, no work tomorrow since I'm out sick rn but I should probably get some sleep. Good night.

Gn, one last Insomnia fueled fomment, Vespa could be our opportunity to showcase how a civilization could react to a G'nat raid, her story could be some G'nats stole her kingdom's food supply, and she is taking down the Double Sigma with her bare hands, think John Wick but replace the dog dying with someone stealing your food, you would go on a murderous rampage in revenge I can tell you that.

In all honesty, Vespa herself needs that food since it allows her to create honey that is used to Jumpstart the development of her current clutch of eggs, and it's not just any food but premium food due to the nutrients, so the G'nats are indirectly harming unborn children, rated T for teen everyone.

 

[Glubbfubb]

My idea for Vespa's kit revolves around one concept, that being having an advantage at the front. She has a defensive stance at the front, giving her a knockback and tripping resistance in that area, meanwhile her backside is highly vulnerable, not only becuase of her large hitbox, but because her Back Tilt and Back Air are among the worse in the game. Her kit reflects this qurck of her, she has a powerful counter command throw when attacked in the front, and unlike a certain OTHER command throw she actually dashes forward before performing the throw, meaning it's not useless against projectile spammers, while her Hypermax equivalent becomes a move ala Bowser's flying slam. Her side special is a shove, a weak move with very high knockback, which become a stronger flying E Honda wac lunge when charged, good for pushing people off the stage. Finally her neutral special is a rolling move that gives her burst movement on the ground and in the air is a powerful spiking tool that can also bury if used on grounded foes, which when enhanced becomes a quaking stop that trips opponents. All I really need is a good up special, any moves in mind? Her stats is intended to be the 2nd heaviest character in the game with surprisingly great ground speed (on par with modern Bowser) but among the worse jumps and air mobility in the game. She is my take on the Little Mac archetype, but instead of being fantastic on the ground and useless in the air is instead fantastic from the front and near defenseless from the back.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Spoiler: Vespa's Kit

Name - Vespa
Gender - Female
Species - Apidon Hornet
Origin - Vespa is not some slovenly despot or uncaring tyrant, she self-describes herself as a diplomat and kindly monarch. Born to be the ruler of the Apidon, a planet noted for their fertility, Vespa is not technically the mother of all her subjects, however, she produces a special honey-like substance called Ambrosium that fertilizes the eggs of her people, creating a new generation. Such a process is energy consuming and so Vespa requires the most nutritious food in order to produce more Ambrosium, often coming from the large herbivores populating the planet. Currently, its winter, a time when all the herbivores are hibernating, so the colony has formed a stockpile of meat for them to feed on... Or that would be the case if a raid of G'nat pirates stole the meat to feed their blood cravings. Lacking food of their own and the methods of making a new generation, Vespa takes it onto herself to... diplomatically talk to the G'nats on the Double Sigma, even if it means she has to pull her weight around.

Appearance - Vespa is overtly based off both Sumo Wrestlers and Asian Giant Hornets. She has a massively rotund body with a pronounced gut, and muscular arms and thighs with a color scheme comprising earthy oranges and deep blacks. Around her waistline is a series of orbs resembling a championship belt, but in actuality, they are glands that produce Ambrosium. On her head in a crown indicating her royalty, and she has embroidered black rubber gloves and boots. She wears a cape-like cloak that has some ornate trimming, with the logo of her planet's flag on her backside. She has large, black, compound eyes, though they are gentle-looking, to emphasize the fact she is also a kindly ruler. She usually has a small mouth, but when hungry grows into a multi-fanged maw or serrated teeth, though she controls herself in combat.

Archetype - Bruiser/Grappler
Gimmick - Large and In Charge

• Vespa's massive size and weight, combined with her being in a defensive pose most of the time means she takes reduced knockback and damage from the front, but more damage when attacked from behind. She is also immune to tripping from the front. Some attacks also give her minor armor when attacked from the front.

Intended Strengths -

• A character designed with impeccably strong defense in the front, allowing Vespa to deal some massive damage, espeically when mixed with her super armor.
• Excellent ground speed for her size and weight, letting her run great distances.
• While lacking in range, Vespa's attacks tend to be high in power or can produce secondary effects like burying and tripping.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Her gimmick can cause some harm to her as well, as a mobile opponent can go over her defenses and attack her weak points.
• Attacks, while strong, lack range, and her Back Air and Tilts are legitimately the worst in the game.
• Vespa has subpar aerial stats.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed - B+
Traction - B+
Jump Height - C-
Air Acceleration - C-
Fall Speed - B-
Weight - A+

Ground Moves:
Jab - Palm Strike - A strike from the palm, a strong singular jab with good speed but very short range.
Forward Tilt - Twin Strike - Vespa makes a forceful twin palm strike, dealing more damage but being slower than the jab.
Up Tilt - Upwards Palm - A palm strike from above, quick and easy to use, good for juggling combos.
Down Tilt - Leg Sweep - A leg sweep is performed, having a chance to trip the opponet if Vespa hits with her heel.
Back Tilt - Heel Slap - Vespa awkwardly attacks with her heel backwards, laggy and weak, so not a good attack.
Dash Attack - Stomach Lunge - Dashing forward, Vespa performs a leaping body slam, good power but high end lag.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Palm Slam - Vespa performs an extremely forceful open palm strike with quick start-up but high end-lag.
Up Charge - Elbow Leap - Vespa leaps up and performs an elbow jab, good for sniping opponents in the air due to a wide hitbox.
Down Charge - Down Crash - A downwards body slam, takes a while to charge but when fully charged the force can bury opponents.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Stomach Slam - Extending her stomach, Vespa performs a full body slam downwards, the center attack can spike.
Forward Air - Royale Swing - A downward elbow strike that sends opponents forward, due to her size it has good range.
Up Air - Royal Header - A head swing upwards, dealing great knockback and can even KO.
Down Air - Pile Diver - A stall and fall, but a very powerful one that has Vespa perform a body slam downwards and deal massive damage when she crashes on the ground.
Back Air - Elbow Slap - A weak slap from behind with her elbow, easily Vespa's worst attack.

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw - Underarm Throw - Perfroms a Shutate nage, or underarm throw, and throws the opponent forward, good kill throw.
Down Throw - Burying Throw - Vespa burries the opponent into the dirt, weak but allows you to start some combos.
Back Throw - Overarm Throw - Performs a Uwate nage, or overarm throw, and throws the opponent over her shoulder, good kill throw.
Up Throw - Scoop Throw - Performs a Sukui nage, or scoop throw, and scoops them upwards, her weakest throw.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Rebound Spinner - Spinning like a ball, Vespa rolls along the ground, the distance of the move traveled being determined by Vespa's current momentum, a good burst movement option. When used in the air, Vespa spins in midair and bounces off any opponent she lands on, she can also dash forward as a recovery tool.

• Neutral Hyper - Earth Spinner - Putting more weight into her attack, Vespa performs a shorter range but more powerful roll that buries or spikes opponents, depending on their position.

Side Special - Push-out - Vespa performs an Oshi Dashi, or push-out, which launches foes back a great distance. Despite the high knockback, it has low damage, so its best used as a finishing move.

• Side Hyper - Trip-out - Performing a Ke Kaeshi, Vespa uses her own leg to trip the opponent's leg, giving her the opportunity to start a combo

Down Special - Counter-throw - A counterattack that only affects attacks directed at the front. If the counter succeeds, Vespa dashes forward and performs a powerful Judo throw, the attack itself has set damage, rather the knockback of the original move is multiplied by 1.5x.

• Down Hyper - Earth Slammer - Vespa dashes forward, and performs a leaping command grab resembling a flying slam, deals massive damage and can be used as a kill move.

Up Special - Leaping Hornet - Vespa jumps in the air and then performs a ground pound below, solid enough recovery option.

• Up Hyper - Earth Comet - Vespa's ground pound now burries the opponent.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Bee Blocker - Summoning a battalion of Apidon Wasp drones, Vespa has them block off the opponent to prevent them from attacking her from behind, they can be killed if given enough damage.
Level 2 - Thunder Quake - A powerful leg slam causes a fault line to occur, creating a zone where the enemy gets endlessly tripped.
Level 3 - Great Queen - Vespa eats some royal jelly and grows three time her size, gaining armor on all of her attacks, effect lasts 10 seconds.

I used this series of videos for the more obvert sumo inspirations. May be my most fleshed out kit yet, tell me how much you like it Kirbeh . I don't know if I should have more moves based off bees and wasps, I don't know if thats necessary.

 

[Kirbeh]

Name - Vespa
Gender - Female
Species - Apidon Hornet
Origin - Vespa is not some slovenly despot or uncaring tyrant, she self-describes herself as a diplomat and kindly monarch. Born to be the ruler of the Apidon, a planet noted for their fertility, Vespa is not technically the mother of all her subjects, however, she produces a special honey-like substance called Ambrosium that fertilizes the eggs of her people, creating a new generation.

The female fertilizes the eggs? Unless the idea is for this to be an all-female species, I think this part of their species/background needs to be adjusted.

Appearance - Vespa is overtly based off both Sumo Wrestlers and Asian Giant Hornets. She has a massively rotund body with a pronounced gut, and muscular arms and thighs with a color scheme comprising earthy oranges and deep blacks. Around her waistline is a series of orbs resembling a championship belt, but in actuality, they are glands that produce Ambrosium. On her head in a crown indicating her royalty, and she has embroiled

I assume you meant embroidered.

black rubber glovers and boots.

Jokes aside, what's the rest of her outfit supposed to be? Boots, gloves, a crown, a cape but what else? Does she wear a royal gown since she's a queen? Does she lean into the sumo theme and wear a mawashi?

She has large, black, compound eyes, though they are gentle looking to emphasize the fact she is also a kindly ruler.

I don't know if making compound eyes can be made to look gentle per say. Since they can't move or blink, compound eyes can't really be used to show emotion or expressions.

Spoiler

Ground Moves:
Jab - Palm Strike - A strike from the palm, a strong singular jab with good speed but very short range.
Forward Tilt - Twin Strike - Vespa makes a forceful twin palm strike, dealing more damage but being slower than the jab.
Up Tilt - Upwards Palm - A palm strike from above, quick and easy to use, good for juggling combos.
Down Tilt - Leg Sweep - A leg sweep is performed, having a chance to trip the opponet if Vespa hits with her heel.
Back Tilt - Heel Slap - Vespa awkwardly attacks with her heel backwards, laggy and weak, so not a good attack.
Dash Attack - Stomach Lunge - Dashing forward, Vespa performs a leaping body slam, good power but high end lag.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Palm Slam - Vespa performs an extremely forceful open palm strike with quick start-up but high end-lag.
Up Charge - Elbow Leap - Vespa leaps up and performs an elbow jab, good for sniping opponents in the air due to a wide hitbox.
Down Charge - Down Crash - A downwards body slam, takes a while to charge but when fully charged the force can bury opponents.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Stomach Slam - Extending her stomach, Vespa performs a full body slam downwards, the center attack can spike.
Forward Air - Royale Swing - A downward elbow strike that sends opponents forward, due to her size it has good range.
Up Air - Royal Header - A head swing upwards, dealing great knockback and can even KO.
Down Air - Pile Diver - A stall and fall, but a very powerful one that has Vespa perform a body slam downwards and deal massive damage when she crashes on the ground.
Back Air - Elbow Slap - A weak slap from behind with her elbow, easily Vespa's worst attack.

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw - Underarm Throw - Perfroms a Shutate nage, or underarm throw, and throws the opponent forward, good kill throw.
Down Throw - Burying Throw - Vespa burries the opponent into the dirt, weak but allows you to start some combos.
Back Throw - Overarm Throw - Performs a Uwate nage, or overarm throw, and throws the opponent over her shoulder, good kill throw.
Up Throw - Scoop Throw - Performs a Sukui nage, or scoop throw, and scoops them upwards, her weakest throw.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Rebound Spinner - Spinning like a ball, Vespa rolls along the ground, the distance of the move traveled being determined by Vespa's current momentum, a good burst movement option. When used in the air, Vespa spins in midair and bounces off any opponent she lands on, she can also dash forward as a recovery tool.

• Neutral Hyper - Earth Spinner - Putting more weight into her attack, Vespa performs a shorter range but more powerful roll that buries or spikes opponents, depending on their position.

Side Special - Push-out - Vespa performs an Oshi Dashi, or push-out, which launches foes back a great distance. Despite the high knockback, it has low damage, so its best used as a finishing move.

• Side Hyper - Trip-out - Performing a Ke Kaeshi, Vespa uses her own leg to trip the opponent's leg, giving her the opportunity to start a combo

Down Special - Counter-throw - A counterattack that only affects attacks directed at the front. If the counter succeeds, Vespa dashes forward and performs a powerful Judo throw, the attack itself has set damage, rather the knockback of the original move is multiplied by 1.5x.

• Down Hyper - Earth Slammer - Vespa dashes forward, and performs a leaping command grab resembling a flying slam, deals massive damage and can be used as a kill move.

Up Special - Leaping Hornet - Vespa jumps in the air and then performs a ground pound below, solid enough recovery option.

• Up Hyper - Earth Comet - Vespa's ground pound now burries the opponent.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Bee Blocker - Summoning a battalion of Apidon Wasp drones, Vespa has them block off the opponent to prevent them from attacking her from behind, they can be killed if given enough damage.
Level 2 - Thunder Quake - A powerful leg slam causes a fault line to occur, creating a zone where the enemy gets endlessly tripped.
Level 3 - Great Queen - Vespa eats some royal jelly and grows three time her size, gaining armor on all of her attacks, effect lasts 10 seconds.

I used this series of videos for the more obvert sumo inspirations. May be my most fleshed out kit yet, tell me how much you like it. I don't know if I should have more moves based off bees and wasps, I don't know if thats necessary.

Pretty good overall, I quite like it. There are a couple adjustments I'd like to suggest, though I'll post those later. I want to visualize her actual design before making any changes.

 

[Glubbfubb]

The female fertilizes the eggs? Unless the idea is for this to be an all-female species, I think this part of their species/background needs to be adjusted.


I assume you meant embroidered.


View attachment 390684

Jokes aside, what's the rest of her outfit supposed to be? Boots, gloves, a crown, a cape but what else? Does she wear a royal gown since she's a queen? Does she lean into the sumo theme and wear a mawashi?


I don't know if making compound eyes can be made to look gentle per say. Since they can't move or blink, compound eyes can't really be used to show emotion or expressions.


Pretty good overall, I quite like it. There are a couple adjustments I'd like to suggest, though I'll post those later. I want to visualize her actual design before making any changes.

Honestly, a mix of a gown and mawashi would work for the rest of her attire. Maybe instead of compound eyes, make them solid black, they look like compound eyes but can show a lot more emotion. Do you have any ideas to implement the hive aspect without going full in with the queen bee laying all the eggs, don't mind that, but that just feels uncivilized for a sentient species of humanoid bees/wasps.

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly, a mix of a gown and mawashi would work for the rest of her attire. Maybe instead of compound eyes, make them solid black, they look like compound eyes but can show a lot more emotion. Do you have any ideas to implement the hive aspect without going full in with the queen bee laying all the eggs, don't mind that, but that just feels uncivilized for a sentient species of humanoid bees/wasps.

Since the inspiration is sumo, for the outfit, I'm thinking we keep within the Japanese theming and combine the mawashi with a formal kimono like the uchikake.

For the eyes, I think one possible direction to take would be to go the Q-Bee route.

The Darkstalkers character, Q-Bee, has actual compound eyes, with these actually being her real eyes. The human "face" is nothing more than a means of deceiving prey. Now, I don't think this should be exactly how Vespa gets handled, but I think we could take this approach and modify it a bit.

Option 1: Vespa gets two pairs of eyes. Compound eyes sitting on top of her head like Q-Bee, as well as more humanoid eyes on her face that properly convey emotion and expressions.

Option 2: Humanoid eyes with a crown or headpiece that replicates the appearance of compound eyes.

Moving on to her body, I did want to ask if you intend for her to have an actual abdomen like bees/hornets or if this species has looser inspiration where they lack that feature. Or perhaps her anatomy differs especially due to being queen. Also, given the sumo basis and focus on ground combat, does she have wings? Maybe she doesn't or maybe she has small vestigial ones that don't really work for flying.

For the lore stuff, rather than giving birth/laying all the colony's eggs, you can go with the Ambrosium as a better means of nutrition. The queen in this case runs a hatchery/nursery to care for her subjects in a more literal sense by being a foster parent to the newborns and feeding them the Ambrosium until they grow enough to leave and return to their original parents. Her role as a surrogate mother strengthens the bond and sense of loyalty between the queen and her people.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Since the inspiration is sumo, for the outfit, I'm thinking we keep within the Japanese theming and combine the mawashi with a formal kimono like the uchikake.

For the eyes, I think one possible direction to take would be to go the Q-Bee route.

View attachment 390686

The Darkstalkers character, Q-Bee, has actual compound eyes, with these actually being her real eyes. The human "face" is nothing more than a means of deceiving prey. Now, I don't think this should be exactly how Vespa gets handled, but I think we could take this approach and modify it a bit.

Option 1: Vespa gets two pairs of eyes. Compound eyes sitting on top of her head like Q-Bee, as well as more humanoid eyes on her face that properly convey emotion and expressions.

Option 2: Humanoid eyes with a crown or headpiece that replicates the appearance of compound eyes.

Moving on to her body, I did want to ask if you intend for her to have an actual abdomen like bees/hornets or if this species has looser inspiration where they lack that feature. Or perhaps her anatomy differs especially due to being queen. Also, given the sumo basis and focus on ground combat, does she have wings? Maybe she doesn't or maybe she has small vestigial ones that don't really work for flying.

For the lore stuff, rather than giving birth/laying all the colony's eggs, you can go with the Ambrosium as a better means of nutrition. The queen in this case runs a hatchery/nursery to care for her subjects in a more literal sense by being a foster parent to the newborns and feeding them the Ambrosium until they grow enough to leave and return to their original parents. Her role as a surrogate mother strengthens the bond and sense of loyalty between the queen and her people.

Go the crown angle with the eyes, Q Bee is designed to be creepy, Vespa is clearly not creepy, more of a gentle giant. I think a true abdomen makes her feel more awkward for her archtype, I was picturing more of a three segment gut, the subjects would have a more traditional abdomen, but the queen doesn't. The wings stuff would likely be vestigal, the subjects can fly to gather food, since the queen is too heavy to collect for herself, the queen's abdomen then becomes a three chambered gut in the literal sense, the top chamber is the normal stomach, the middle chamber houses the glands that produce the Ambrosium, which is her "belt" and the lowest chamber deals with waste disposal (the poop chamber), makes sense to you? Also your story idea is much better than my own, do that.

Also I had the same debate over if she could have wings to fly, which is why her up special was modeled after Dedede's, she can still leap and bound, just not fly so to speak.

 

[Kirbeh]

Spoiler

Overall. very undecided/unsure as to what approach is best for the character. One is super cartoony, the other more anime (potentially too human?) The third, in the bottom left corner, fits the basic description the best but is honestly my least favorite.

I know you also prefer to steer away from more risqué designs, but it's kind of hard if the character is going to be pants-less like an actual sumo. The traditional mawashi doesn't really cover a whole lot so I tried for the ceremonial version rather than the actual combat version, but it's still just a loincloth in practice.

I did try an orangy skin tone since you wanted more earthy colors, and with the Japanese theming, this kinda doubles as a loose reference to oni in that way, so there's potential there. The actual kimono inspired top is colored like a regular bee with a primary color of yellow, so it actually stands out against her body. The headdress/hair accessories adorn a traditional formal hairstyle and are of course bee themed with the hair clips serving as a stand in for compound eyes as requested.

The primary design itself I think turned out pretty decent though I don't know if it's quite what you want, I'll probably repurpose it if that's the case.

The runner up is the rotund one with the bun. I think she's pretty cute though I'm undecided on the legs. You requested muscular arms and legs but that's a bit harder to portray when the character is so round in the toon design or has higher body fat in general. Especially on women, high body fat is going to hide muscle, so she winds up looking more on the chubby/plump side.

I'm still going to go back and do a moveset rework as well, though surprisingly the two current designs still work despite how different they are from each other. The moves could fit either one easily, though given the partial basis in real sumo, I suppose it's not that suprising actually.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Vespa concept sketches

Spoiler

Overall. very undecided/unsure as to what approach is best for the character. One is super cartoony, the other more anime (potentially too human?) The third, in the bottom left corner, fits the basic description the best but is honestly my least favorite.

I know you also prefer to steer away from more risqué designs, but it's kind of hard if the character is going to be pants-less like an actual sumo. The traditional mawashi doesn't really cover a whole lot so I tried for the ceremonial version rather than the actual combat version, but it's still just a loincloth in practice.

I did try an orangy skin tone since you wanted more earthy colors, and with the Japanese theming, this kinda doubles as a loose reference to oni in that way, so there's potential there. The actual kimono inspired top is colored like a regular bee with a primary color of yellow, so it actually stands out against her body. The headdress/hair accessories adorn a traditional formal hairstyle and are of course bee themed with the hair clips serving as a stand in for compound eyes as requested.

The primary design itself I think turned out pretty decent though I don't know if it's quite what you want, I'll probably repurpose it if that's the case.

The runner up is the rotund one with the bun. I think she's pretty cute though I'm undecided on the legs. You requested muscular arms and legs but that's a bit harder to portray when the character is so round in the toon design or has higher body fat in general. Especially on women, high body fat is going to hide muscle, so she winds up looking more on the chubby/plump side.

I'm still going to go back and do a moveset rework as well, though surprisingly the two current designs still work despite how different they are from each other. The moves could fit either one easily, though given the partial basis in real sumo, I suppose it's not that suprising actually.

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The rotund one with the bun is the one the closest to my idea, therefore its my favorite, lets flesh out that one.

 

[Kirbeh]

The rotund one with the bun is the one the closest to my idea, therefore its my favorite, lets flesh out that one.

Plan Bee it is. Honestly, I'm going to ditch the sumo attire though, having it as inspiration for the move set is fun, but I don't think we necessarily need to have them wear a mawashi.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Plan Bee it is. Honestly, I'm going to ditch the sumo attire though, having it as inspiration for the move set is fun, but I don't think we necessarily need to have them wear a mawashi.

True, true, maybe use other Japanese aesthetics in her design, not just explicitly sumo, she is also based off the Japanese giant hornet btw.