Shulk Monado Data Thread

[KuroganeHammer]

on the normal counter the tip of the monado does less damage, yes

there's no late hit, counters don't have late hits because that would defeat the purpose of being a counter

 

[Masonomace]

Absolutely, although I asked if Vision's hit at the very beginning of the move does more % damage, not a late hit.

That gets me curious if the regular damages change if they're performed mid-air too.

EDIT: Upon recently learning something about Vision, being too close to Shulk activating the parry effect would probably miss, so yeah.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

@ Hokori seeing as this is an ongoing project of mine, I would very much prefer you don't lock it

... I'm not sure WHY you locked it, but I've unlocked it for now.

 

[Hokori]

@ Hokori seeing as this is an ongoing project of mine, I would very much prefer you don't lock it

... I'm not sure WHY you locked it, but I've unlocked it for now.

Since I noticed the info posted in the Metagame thread, I figured it was done. In any case, I should've contacted you about it before making any actions, so my B.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

huh so it is

Nevermind, I can still use this thread for updates.

Besides, I'm not done with the base damages yet.

Like also how shield's jump penalty is less than speed's.

Why is shield's jump penalty less than speed's?

Basically you don't lock my threads. No one locks my threads but me.

Also, here's a discovery I found today~

Your shield is actually significantly stronger in Shield mode.

 

[Masonomace]

Your shield is actually significantly stronger in Shield mode.

This is the best thing I've read about Shield, & I'm glad my hunch about it came true. It was like a shooting star wish. So much joy! Thank you to the max Aerofrond

EDIT: Another piece of data confusion I had about Shield compared to Jump, was why Shield's falling speed slower when the weight increases, but Jump's weight decreases despite the falling speed is like a brick airborne. Things like that boggle me when using these Arts.

 

[Hokori]

Sheesh, I hear ya, I hear ya.

As for the shield being stronger...strong enough to even take the Bowser Bomb without it breaking?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sheesh, I hear ya, I hear ya.

As for the shield being stronger...strong enough to even take the Bowser Bomb without it breaking?

Yes, it survives all 3 hits of the move.

EDIT: Another piece of data confusion I had about Shield compared to Jump, was why Shield's falling speed slower when the weight increases, but Jump's weight decreases despite the falling speed is like a brick airborne. Things like that boggle me when using these Arts.

Because fall speed and weight are not the same thing.

(see fox with his stupid fall speed and stupid weight)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Extreme Monado Art Shield survives a fully charged Shieldbreaker from Marth.

 

[Masonomace]

Shield's OoS game for me just got a whole lot better!
*good sigh*

Extreme Monado Art Shield survives a fully charged Shieldbreaker from Marth.

Even when Marth's Shield Breaker is Tipped?!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Shield Value Changes Compared to Vanilla:

Jump = same
Speed = same
Shield = Stronger shield/longer duration
Buster = same
Smash = same

Even when Marth's Shield Breaker is Tipped?!

Yes (but only for extreme monado arts)

 

[Berserker.]

Yo. Thanks Aero

 

[Masonomace]

Hey Aero I noticed something interesting about Forward Vision that may lead to additional testing but I believe Forward Vision has a tipper hit-box property too:
I noticed it in a match Trela was in:
http://youtu.be/Q3G7y2mLhqk?t=1m43s
At 1:45 Trela while using the Smash Art (-50% reduction) hit Ralph with literally the tip of the Beam dealing 6% instead. Here's a GIF for shows:

EDIT:
Trela did land a Forward Vision earlier which was his 1st time connecting the move in the match but was using Speed & it dealt 21% not hitting with the Beam's Tip. And that was on his first stock so the 2nd Forward VIsion used had to of been fresh.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

i cant reliably test this

 

[Masonomace]

Well. . .perhaps it doesn't need testing. (grasping straws & promoting laziness here)
Basic math applied into this, Smash reduces % damage dealt by -50%, & taking into account Trela's fresh Forward Vision used in Smash mode did deal 6% instead of 10%, I feel we can say Forward Vision does have a tipper hit-box. Visually it does look like it hit with the "tipper" of the Beam in his attack.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that Shulk is really close to Little Mac in that moment so perhaps it's distance-related when countering with Forward Vision.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Sigh, so today I learned that decisive Monado arts have stronger multipliers.

I'll work on them today...

 

[Masonomace]

Liked your message because it's good news to know they're stronger than the regular MArts, but testing-wise working on them is a pain = /. . .but disregarding the testing, it is nice to know they're stronger & have extra meaning to use them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

testing them is great actually, l0l

 

[Masonomace]

Ahh, meant to type "sounds like" than "is". I noticed a post by Soul Blazer mentioning Decisive Monado Speed basically has the same strength as Vanilla Shulk, which is awesome because of Speed's lack of drawbacks to using the Art.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Speed's strength debuff is definitely there

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Updated with Decisive Arts.

Let me know if something looks wrong,

 

[Berserker.]

Actually for all types of monado speed (Default, Decisive and Hyper) , aerial speed is increased. Arguably as much as jump

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Huh, how did I miss that

Thanks

 

[Masonomace]

As far as values or info that may be visually wrong, only small corrections per-say to Extreme Monado Arts instead saying Hyper Monado Arts. For the data in the tables, I could of sworn Speed affects the aerial speed does (D'op berserk said it 'd), & I'm a little surprised Shield doesn't decrease falling speed, but I don't own the game so I have no say. Good additions there Aero right on. I'll have to fix & edit the Metagame thread of me saying Shield decreases falling speed. Brb.

 

[Berserker.]

Tested it to double check. I'm wrong about it being arguably having as good air speed as jump. It's closer to vanilla but you can feel and tell the obvious difference.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

cbf, extreme sounds better

Shield doesn't decrease fall speed, I tested this from dropping through platforms and jumping up and down on the ropes of the boxing ring stage and I didn't notice any difference at all

Tested it to double check. I'm wrong about it being arguably having as good air speed as jump. It's closer to vanilla but you can feel and tell the obvious difference.

I used tanooki suit and put the next to each other and watched them fly across the stage. Speed is faster than vanilla but doesn't seem to scale in comparison to extreme monado arts. They kinda all just have the same air speed.

This is all denoted by how many "+"'s and "-"'s a stance has btw

 

[Masonomace]

I was going to ask a follow-up of Shield about whether fastfalling is altered from Speed or Shield, since clearly Jump definitely has some fastfalling, really fast. But if Shield doesn't decrease falling speed it felt pointless asking.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Like I said, I tested them all on the bouncing ropes of Boxing Ring, Jump is the only one that modifies falling speed (and it makes you fall very fast).

All the others seem to have the same falling speed as vanilla.

I didn't really bother testing movement options of Smash and Buster since realistically they probably won't be modified and I have absolutely zero reason to believe they are.

 

[Berserker.]

Oh and aero, not sure if you knew this but buster does additional shield damage. The shield damage is outright insane compared to vanilla

Oh and, the shield push back is strong in this one

 

[Masonomace]

^ That, &
What I'm astounded with Decisive Monado Arts is that the drawback decreases of the stances all remained the same. I'm starting to favor Shulk becoming a greater Doubles character with DMArts on if Custom Specials were tournament legal in the near future. I mean, at least 22 good seconds of Decisive Monado Shield with it's boosts increased slightly more will feel amazing!

EDIT: By what I've noticed, shieldstun & shield damage seem to be shared between Buster & Smash only, as Smash does very petty shield damage & shieldstun that I've seen plenty of times in Shulk videos I watch.

 

[Berserker.]

Smash's shield damage sucks ass. Blame the 50% damage increase

I have a feeling that Shulk's monado arts basically work like equipment. If this is correct then speed may reduce landing lag and jump? Not sure

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh and aero, not sure if you knew this but buster does additional shield damage. The shield damage is outright insane compared to vanilla

Oh and, the shield push back is strong in this one

I don't think it does "additional" shield damage per se.

See, shield damage is a formula that looks like this (in Brawl):

Shield Health - The health of shield that determines the size of the shield (along with the character’s own specific shield size). Shield health also determines when a shield will break. When a shield is attacked it’s shield health decreases, as well as when time passes with the shield up, the shield health decreases. Shields last for 177 frames if not hit. Shields have 50 health, deplete at 16.8 per second, regenerate at 4.2 per second and are reset to 30 after being broken. 1% damage = -2.5 frames shield health

So shields in Brawl, the more % a move does, the more damage to the shield it does.

I don't have any reason to believe that it adds extra shield damage, it's just a byproduct of Buster doing 40% more damage to shields.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't think it does "additional" shield damage per se.

See, shield damage is a formula that looks like this (in Brawl):

Shield Health - The health of shield that determines the size of the shield (along with the character’s own specific shield size). Shield health also determines when a shield will break. When a shield is attacked it’s shield health decreases, as well as when time passes with the shield up, the shield health decreases. Shields last for 177 frames if not hit. Shields have 50 health, deplete at 16.8 per second, regenerate at 4.2 per second and are reset to 30 after being broken. 1% damage = -2.5 frames shield health

So shields in Brawl, the more % a move does, the more damage to the shield it does.

I don't have any reason to believe that it adds extra shield damage, it's just a byproduct of Buster doing 40% more damage to shields.

Hm.. I never knew about that. Ah well. Good to learn more stuff

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hm.. I never knew about that. Ah well. Good to learn more stuff

Well, you seemed to know about it. You knew that Smash's shield damage sucked. =P

Speed's is also below average.

 

[Berserker.]

Well, you seemed to know about it. You knew that Smash's shield damage sucked. =P

Speed's is also below average.

Purely from experience. I used f-smash with smash art on shield and was repulsed by the impact it does on shield (non-existent). I then got KO'd because smash art makes you light and **** smash art until someone gets creative with it. Wonder who'll be the one to do that.

Might derail a bit here, Jump started being a thing when Shulks saw Trela in action. If you showed yourself utilizing shield very well for a good percentage of a match, you might make shield a thing too because people usually forget about shield (Same way people relegated jump as a recovering tool).

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Honestly I think it's heavily playstyle dependent. I think people are even underestimating vShulk.

I like Shield. Why?

Vs. Sheik? Shield. Watch all her attacks do 2% damage.

Vs. Bowser? Watch all his kill options be nullified since you can literally just shield everything and never be in danger of your shield breaking.

etc

 

[Berserker.]

Honestly I think it's heavily playstyle dependent. I think people are even underestimating vShulk.

I like Shield. Why?

Vs. Sheik? Shield. Watch all her attacks do 2% damage.

Vs. Bowser? Watch all his kill options be nullified since you can literally just shield everything and never be in danger of your shield breaking.

etc

Yeah. Now, you mentioned it, I did remember @Scourge The Hedgehog said. There's no specific way of playing him. He plays depending on how you want to play. I got sick of buster after one Sheik match and switched to all out agility buffs and liked it better and used that set up from then on

 

[ChronoPenguin]

With decisivea short hop being shorter in decisive but the damage being the same I suppose its seen as a positive?

Does Smash increase KB by a % or a flat?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

can you rephrase that

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Smash increases knock back but is this a flat addition eg. If your moves KB is 37 it adds 20 on to it for 57 or does it increase it by a % like 50%.

In the rage thread you were showing that the increase of rage from 0-70% was minor. I'm wondering what the difference in potency is for Smash.