Shulk custom moveset discussion (Standard Custom Moveset Project discussion)

[Berserker.]

I attempted to use this against Sheik and I gotta say, it's actually pretty cool. With jump and if the character is at a high %, you may possibly gimp with this

I'm gonna mess with back slash leap but I still think totally worthless. I don't know

 

[TheNin10doUltra]

I haven't even tried Hyper Monado arts yet. I'm really liking mighty air slash

 

[Claxus]

Backslash Leap is better at getting the back hits, that's mostly it. You can for example, U-Throw someone, then run under them and use it, without having to worry about horizontal spacing. And it's a little faster, so it's a split second quicker to get someone's back if they roll to you or whiff something.

It's less useful offensively, but better at netting the gimmick.

 

[Berserker.]

Countering Bowser's f-smash with Power vision KO's at 0%

Backslash Leap is better at getting the back hits, that's mostly it. You can for example, U-Throw someone, then run under them and use it, without having to worry about horizontal spacing. And it's a little faster, so it's a split second quicker to get someone's back if they roll to you or whiff something.

It's less useful offensively, but better at netting the gimmick.

I tried dabbling with it

It's actually better than I thought. Sort of. It's pretty decent for edgeguarding and it's a good "out-of-no-where" attack since it's surprisingly fast.

That's about it though

 

[Attila the Hun]

Anyone having a lot of trouble using No custom Shulk after using Hyper or Decisive Shulk? Like, For Glory is undoable for me when I can't dthrow kill someone at 90%.

 

[erico9001]

I posted this in the movelist/metagame thread but it more belongs here
-
I would like to provide some input on the custom monado arts.

Decisive Monado Arts -
A couple of times I wanted to use Jump to recover (while plain Shulk), but I died. Decisive MA mostly gets rid of the option to use Jump to recover, unless if you use it early and with no active monado art. Even if you do recover with Jump, you still face issues afterwards. It's not a great idea to be in Jump at high damage (unless you have intent to gimp the opponent) since it increases knockback taken. If you had to use Jump to recover, you likely were at high damage and then, unfortunately, you can't cancel it. Well, using Monado Jump to recover isn't a great decision, but what else is there?

Buster and Smash are troublesome with Decisive Arts. You can't cancel Buster if the momentum turns to the opponent, and neither can you cancel it if you want to have knockback. Really, buster is a bust with Deisive Arts. Not being able to cancel Smash would be troublesome for when you actually do kill the opponent and they respawn.

The last downside I see is Shield not cancelling might be bad for recovery, since I usually cancel it and go to Jump when I've been hit off the stage (4 presses)

The major benefit to Decisive Monado Arts is it increases the positive effects of arts without increasing the negative effects. Specifically, this would help with Monado Shield (assuming you're not knocked off the stage), Speed, and gimping with Jump.

Hyper Monado Arts -
Monado Buster seems much improved in Hyper Monado Arts. You just quickly activate it when you have momentum so that you can quickly deal out a lot of damage. The lowered knockback should help even more with combos, allowing you to continue using combos when the opponent is at higher percents. By the time the momentum has shifted back against you, the art might already be cancelled.

I'm not sure if Monado Smash is an improvement or not. Since when in normal monado arts I already only use the Smash when I'm at low damage and the opponent is at high damage, the additional knockback I experience is not that bad. However, once you activate smash you don't have much time to get the KO. It may deactivate before you get a good hit in. The knockback is great if you do, though. I guess I would go for Bairs.

Jump is improved when recovering but may deactivate too soon for gimps. Good for one, possibly two, jumps off of the stage.

Shield is a definite improvement while it lasts, but it unfortunately does not last long. You will be well protected against enemy attacks but not for long. You'll be undefended soon enough, and all the opponent has to do is stall (which is very easy thanks to your slow movements).

Speed - Great on land but bad in the air - you get great grabs, combos, and follow-ups, but gimping is really hurt. Overall, I would say this mode is improved in hyper monado arts as long as you are aware of the lowered jump.

 

[Masonomace]

What's someone's input on Back Slash Leap used grounded to landing on platforms (BF YI), does it even land on them, or does Shulk fall through the platform?

Countering Bowser's f-smash with Power vision KO's at 0%

OP pls nerf Sakurai

 

[Claxus]

Because of Shulk, customs will be banned.

Well, BS Leap does reach the lower platforms on BF, that's pretty cool. In YI, it won't work from the middle, though, because of the small indent.

 

[Masonomace]

Because of Shulk, customs will be banned.

Well, BS Leap does reach the lower platforms on BF, that's pretty cool. In YI, it won't work from the middle, though, because of the small indent.

One last thing I thought of about BSL & BSC, was what transpires when Shulk lands on YI's slopes. Slopes in past games did alter your hit-box property, so if the slope pointed downward, your D-tilt per-say would be angled accordingly because of the slope.

So yeah, slopes are very weird. I'd like to see a BSL or BSC edge-guard attempt on YI's slopes & be amazed of what would happen xD.

 

[Berserker.]

BTW. Correction

Countering f-smash doesn't KO Bowser at 0% in the middle of the stage. I suspect it's somewhere around the edge of the stage. idk. Still insane

Neutral B : Hyper Monado Arts
Forward B : Back slash charge/Back slash
Downward B : Power Vision
Upward B : Advancing air slash

 

[Masonomace]

So for that troll damage BSL can deal at the most awkward angle. . . .it wasn't patched out in v1.0.4. . . I noticed this while looking through Dantarion's Master Core data stuff for BSL:

24F
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FrameSpeedMultiplier_0DF(2.000000, )
Hitbox_02D(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EC, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=7.000000, Z=13.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0xA, 0x1, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x1, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0.000000, 0.000000, )
Hitbox_02D(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EC, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=7.000000, Z=19.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0xA, 0x1, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x1, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0.000000, 0.000000, )
Hitbox_02D(ID=0x4, GID=0x1, Bone=0x3EC, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x8C, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x19, Size=7.000000, Z=13.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.500000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0xA, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0.000000, 0.000000, )
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unk_038(0x0, )
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SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=2.000000, )
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FrameSpeedMultiplier_0DF(1.000000, )
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If people learn exactly how to execute the move properly spaced to get that 18% consistently in every match, then BSL would be da bess.

Oh, & the 2nd hit of AAS' landing lag can be canceled on top of BF's platforms 1st level platforms if you space it correctly. It makes things a lot easier & interesting to use AAS for a stage that's already good for Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

So for that troll damage BSL can deal at the most awkward angle. . . .it wasn't patched out in v1.0.4. . . I noticed this while looking through Dantarion's Master Core data stuff for BSL:

If people learn exactly how to execute the move properly spaced to get that 18% consistently in every match, then BSL would be da bess.

Oh, & the 2nd hit of AAS' landing lag can be canceled on top of BF's platforms 1st level platforms if you space it correctly. It makes things a lot easier & interesting to use AAS for a stage that's already good for Shulk.

Alright. That's weird.... I'll try checking out on how to get 18% with this

It's generally difficult to land the back hit in matches, but it won't hurt testing it


Also guys: http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

I'm changing the thread title. Let's talk about this thing

 

[Berserker.]

Double post

Alright. So we're gonna be tackling this project. I want you guys to suggest 8 custom movesets BUT please explain your reasoning behind the custom moveset

 

[NairWizard]

My favored custom set is 2323: decisive, leap, advancing, power.

All together, that's Decisive Leap Of Advancing Power. What could be bad about a set with that name?

Anyway, Decisive Monado Arts Shulk is great because he gets around the issue of opponents just running around to "time out" a particular Monado art. You can go Buster to rack up damage and then use Smash to finish a stock, and the opponent can't time out either mode (and they regenerate faster so you can time *them* out if they do that). You can also go perma-Speed against certain characters, which is all kinds of awesome. Decisive does make your recovery worse so using Standard or even Hyper might be better for certain matchups like vs. Pikachu (where you often want Jump to recover).

Backslash leap just because regular backslash is kind of underwhelming and leap at least has some invincibility.
Advancing air slash because regular air slash is kind of underwhelming and AAS at least has a more guaranteed followup.

Power Vision over Vision to help net KOs. I think I prefer PV over Vision all the time no matter what, even though PV is harder to land. It does get weaker as you use it more, but you only need to use it once (in a KO situation) to clutch out the win/get the lead.

Also, PV with Decisive Monado Arts is really scary. You can go to Smash Mode and your opponent will be too scared to do *anything*, and you can basically stay in that mode for as long as you want.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly the only Shulk set I've gelled with is 1213 (Vanilla, Charge, Vanilla, Power). And I barely use Back Slash anyway so eh. I like my flexibility too much for Decisive arts and Hyper arts are over before I know it. I want to like Advancing Air Slash but I'm not a fan of how the followup hit moves you down, I use that sometimes with vanilla for a bit of extra recovery height.

 

[Berserker.]

Power Vision over Vision to help net KOs. I think I prefer PV over Vision all the time no matter what, even though PV is harder to land. It does get weaker as you use it more, but you only need to use it once (in a KO situation) to clutch out the win/get the lead.

When they meant weaker, they only meant that the counter window becomes much stricter the more you use it

Anyway, thanks for the input


Now it's my turn

Hyper Monado Arts
Back slash charge
Advancing Air slash
Power vision

Hyper Monado Arts solely because of Smash art KO'ing at ridiculously low percentages. Thanks to the smaller blast zones and the death of vectoring, KO'ing with hyper smash is even a lot easier now. You can easily KO anyone with u-tilt. Just u-tilt. Or you can kill them of by just f-airing them off stage. Their percentage doesn't even need to be that HIGH. Also, hyper jump is amazing as a recovery art but it's way too risky to use as an on-stage art because you take 46.4% more damage. Same can be said for Hyper buster except you take ~35% more damage. Hyper buster attacks become unsafe on hit. Hell, it's even safer on shield than it is on hit especially against heavier characters. Shield becomes useless.

Actually, now I think about it, everything but Monado Smash is actually a downgrade because of the duration and the debuffs but racking up damage isn't really an issue if you don't even need that much damage

Let's just all drool at the fact that Hyper Smash U-tilt... (All tested on FD while the character was standing)
KO's Bowser at 84%
KO's Rosalina at 68%
KO's Mario at 79%
KO's Jigglypuff at 61%

Of course, Hyper smash makes Shulk the lighest in the game so the best way you can use this safely is when you knocked the opponent off stage and they're trying to recover. Go into Hyper smash and decide between attacking ledge grabbers with d-smash, hitting ledge hoppers with u-tilt (or u-smash) or just edgeguard them with f-air

Back slash charge because I need the super armor but back slash is still meh over all anyway

Advancing air slash because it auto snaps consistently unlike air slash

Power vision for obvious reasons


Edit: I tinkered around with Hyper Buster. It's so safe on shield, you can use n-air on shield into grab. Someone test this but I'm actually successfully doing this at the moment

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, it looks like the early Shulk thread is more than twice as active as every other early thread. I know Shulk is a very diverse character with his moves, but we're actually looking to narrow this a bit further. We want up to three critical sets that represent the most mainline, important options for Shulk and then to fill to slot six with supplemental sets that may be more niche but will still be picked in some case or another. 1111 can be ignored since it is always available no matter what is pre-loaded. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so all of Shulk's custom moves can be explored by all players in the early metagame; this will in the long run allow for the best custom load-outs for Shulk to be discovered as quickly as possible with all players being able to use every move on their own set-ups. Slots 9 and 10, of course, are left free for 3ds imports on tournament day. I'm sure you guys can sort this out; you certainly have the hands on deck to figure out everything you could want in as much detail as you would want.

 

[NairWizard]

My favored custom set is 2323: decisive, leap, advancing, power.

All together, that's Decisive Leap Of Advancing Power. What could be bad about a set with that name?

Anyway, Decisive Monado Arts Shulk is great because he gets around the issue of opponents just running around to "time out" a particular Monado art. You can go Buster to rack up damage and then use Smash to finish a stock, and the opponent can't time out either mode (and they regenerate faster so you can time *them* out if they do that). You can also go perma-Speed against certain characters, which is all kinds of awesome. Decisive does make your recovery worse so using Standard or even Hyper might be better for certain matchups like vs. Pikachu (where you often want Jump to recover).

Backslash leap just because regular backslash is kind of underwhelming and leap at least has some invincibility.
Advancing air slash because regular air slash is kind of underwhelming and AAS at least has a more guaranteed followup.

Power Vision over Vision to help net KOs. I think I prefer PV over Vision all the time no matter what, even though PV is harder to land. It does get weaker as you use it more, but you only need to use it once (in a KO situation) to clutch out the win/get the lead.

Also, PV with Decisive Monado Arts is really scary. You can go to Smash Mode and your opponent will be too scared to do *anything*, and you can basically stay in that mode for as long as you want.

Whoops, I meant Back Slash *Charge* here, not Leap. My mistake. 2223. Charge is the one with invincibility.

It looks like Shulk will probably be down to three sets: Decisive, Hyper, and regular with Power Vision.

 

[Berserker.]

So, it looks like the early Shulk thread is more than twice as active as every other early thread. I know Shulk is a very diverse character with his moves, but we're actually looking to narrow this a bit further. We want up to three critical sets that represent the most mainline, important options for Shulk and then to fill to slot six with supplemental sets that may be more niche but will still be picked in some case or another. 1111 can be ignored since it is always available no matter what is pre-loaded. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so all of Shulk's custom moves can be explored by all players in the early metagame; this will in the long run allow for the best custom load-outs for Shulk to be discovered as quickly as possible with all players being able to use every move on their own set-ups. Slots 9 and 10, of course, are left free for 3ds imports on tournament day. I'm sure you guys can sort this out; you certainly have the hands on deck to figure out everything you could want in as much detail as you would want.

Alright then. I'll post this in the OP. Thanks for the details

Whoops, I meant Back Slash *Charge* here, not Leap. My mistake. 2223. Charge is the one with invincibility.

Noted

 

[Berserker.]

@ Masonomace

I got 18% damage. You have to hit the rear hit of the back slash hitbox. In other words, the 18% hit comes from slightly behind the hilt. I consistently got this when I was performing BSL at a forward facing Bowser. I SH'd a bit at point blank then performed BSL quickly. You can also do this against Kirby. BSL at point blank range. If it's not working, adjust your spacing

THAT's interesting.


Anyway. You guys want to talk about a specific custom set against campers? I have Monado Arts, Back slash charge and Dash vision in mind. Not sure about the air slash custom....

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I dont know about AAS.
You are trading vertical height when you take it.
Not much of a fan I must say.
I also don't feel like MAS really is all that powerful in KB. I expected more from it but didn't recieve it. Fortunately the recover height is high so you can do deeper Edgeguards.

 

[Berserker.]

I dont know about AAS.
You are trading vertical height when you take it.
Not much of a fan I must say.
I also don't feel like MAS really is all that powerful in KB. I expected more from it but didn't recieve it. Fortunately the recover height is high so you can do deeper Edgeguards.

It's more about vertical KB but the KB isn't that much. Hell, I find myself KO'ing more with air slash default.

We might have a problem with what Air slash we're gonna use

Advancing air slash is good because the 2nd hit is more guaranteed to follow up off the first hit. Also, AAS auto snaps consistently which is something air slash does not do. Unfortunately, AAS as a recovery is worse and that's something to take note of.

Air slash as a recovery is better. Problem with air slash is that it does not auto snap or well, it's hard to snap with it.

Both air slash customs have KO power (Advancing air slash has slightly more KO power). I think the deal here is about the vertical recovery in general. We're gonna need to discuss more about this

 

[Overswarm]

I use:

Hyper monado neutral b
standard up+b
backslash with superarmor
power vision down+b

if customs are ever banned, you can basically remove shulk from the CSS

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't believe AAS ledge cancels either, however you will slide off the platform in the right position.

If anything I wouldn't pair AAS with Decisive unless you are committed to Dec Jump. Your edge-guards and recovery are just too weak, auto snap or not. Obv you could play around with it and get used to it but I would prefer now.
With MA and HMA you can at least swap to jump on the fly, and Jump will boost AAS to decent levels.

So Imo as far as general use
2-X-2-X wouldn't be a standard pick.

Now MAS is interesting because again I think it's actually kinda crappy as an attack move.
However Now you can pair it up with with any monado art because heightened recovery is useful in general. The auto-Snap is rather high up though into the move (the apex of it I believe).
You get your deepest edgeguards with it, Which I think is worthwhile.

AS is just too solid overall.
Yeah AAS kills, so does AS. MAS doesn't really kill but it edgeguards and unlike AAS will translate to Dec arts well enough.

Thing is though I also feel Dec arts are niche because of the commitment required of them.

I'll rave for a bit.
Back Slash Leap is doo-doo to me. Back Slash charge isn't even much better given that horrendous ending lag but the horizontal is good enough to be a better recovery mix-up and punish some laggy attacks.
While Leaps worth talking aboutin general , if for the Project specifically I don't believe it is given the constraints.

Eg
MA - Standardish
DMA - Niche pick (for now)
HMA - Standardish

BS - Standardish
BSL - Nope
BSC - Standardish

AS - Standardish
AAS - ??? Since DMA isn't a current consideration, and it'll work with MA/HMA...standardish?
MAS - Standardish

VC - Going to be overshadowed by PVC on a general level
DVC - Really for projectiles, given Monado Speed/Jump break through zoning, not a main priority.
PVC - Standardish.

MA Set - 1,1/3, X, 3.
HMA set - 3, 2/3, X, 3.

Does it seem fair to break it down to MA and Hyper Monado arts? Or at least start with those 2?
If its 3 Critical sets.
I actually think BS has enough going for it over BSL. Given the lack of lag and that it flat out hits harder. I've also been interrupted during BSC which makes the SU rather unreliable. I also prefer the Standard AS because you can't really go "wrong" with it.
The 3 critical sets I'd come up with so far are

1/1/1/3 - MA, BS, AS, PVC - Just absolutely works, but PVC is an upgrade given lack of counter spam.
1/1/2/3 - MA, BS, AAS- PVC - AAS is a decent variation and Jump keeps it reliable
3/1/2/3 - HMA, BS, AAS, PVC - Might as well since

A Niche Set would be
2,1,3,3. - DMA, BS, MAS, PVC. - MAS high recovery will be "safe" whatever you stick yourself in.

 

[Masonomace]

Imo Core Shulk set:

1 = Monado Arts
3 = Back Slash Charge
1 = Air Slash
3 = Power Vision

Spoiler: My reasons for why this set is balanced

Monado Arts & Why:

MArts overall are balanced to fit any game-play style you want with Shulk whether it be Singles Doubles FFA. .anything. They don't hold you down to commit to one MArt like DMArts do, & the very shortened duration of HMArts with their increased & decreased stats doubled, is very aggressive & momentary-based. MArts are also well-rounded airborne & grounded due to DMArts taking longer activating & HMArts making some of the Arts borderline useless at times.

Back Slash Charge & Why:

Back Slash in general is a "meh" attack & is kind of our "Falcon Punch" move so-to-speak, but Back Slash Charge has more utility than both Back Slash & Back Slash Leap. In the aspect of not only having an additional means of recovery in the horizontal department, but also granting Super Armor during most of the duration Shulk is leaping forward. Despite the move being unsafe early game, the move has a lot of linger to it including a sliding hit at the very end of the move's landing. And even though it deals the least damage of the Back Slashes, BSC imo wins in the useful department overall currently.

Air Slash & Why:

This kinda hurts me nominating the default AS over the other 2 custom variants, but for said reasons, we'll stay safe & stick with AS for now. Air Slash overall is balanced in that it has decent horizontal drifting after the 2nd hit coming down, & that it's fairly good vertical height for what it is. There's not really an issue with using AS over the customs when augmenting the AS with more-so Jump than Speed, but regardless both do the work despite Speed reducing Jump Height. AAS & MAS have their uses, yet AS is more, consistent I guess you could say.

Power Vision & Why:

Vision was amazing enough; put on a customized Vision that does stupid strong knockback & damage and what do ya get? An outstanding popular-choice for a Counterattack, that's what. PV alone deals a lot of damage & knockback & give it the right timing & very limited use for the right times & you can avoid it's drawback of being less successful the more it's used. A few PVs & you're set. Although Vision & Dash Vision have their uses seeing that PV is the slowest of the 3, PV shines & rewards you a lot more.

This imo is a balanced set.
════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
Subjective choice set inbound:

2 = Decisive Monado Arts
3 = Back Slash Charge
3 = Mighty Air Slash
3 = Power Vision

Spoiler: My subjective reasons why I want this popular

Decisive Monado Arts & Why:

It could be because the lack-of focus on managing MArts expresses a sort of laziness, or more-so focus on the Art at hand rather than adjusting constantly. Mostly I use the Art because its drawbacks aren't amplified, & that the advantages are slightly increased, making a good balance yet more flavor added. Canceling an Art is sacrificed, but in return the longevity of a MArt increases. The trade-offs are a preference due to my admiration for Shield, but regardless the ground-game mobility of DMArts improves while the airborne aspect is basically the same except for activating DJump off-screen because it takes a while longer for the self-activation to happen. This Custom does fairly well in Doubles like the HMArts can, so that's another plus for me.

Back Slash Charge & Why:

See first core set reason. Also BSC together with MAS gives me my blend of a reliable horizontal recovery move, & a most-of-the-time reliable vertical recovery move.

Mighty Air Slash & Why:

This Custom gets to shine in my post thankfully for several reasons. For one the vertical height of this AS is the greatest among the 3 Air Slashes, & that it really helps my low recovering if I wanna be aggressive while edge-guarding balls deep. At first the main reason for MAS was because its superior Jump Height stat is so impressive that Shield mode dumbing it's Height down is still a decent vertical option of recovery. But now. . .this move can be used on BF to act as a Marth tactic & OoS > JC > UpB effectively in Vanilla mode. Any MArt that reduces Jump Height can still make it if the 2nd hit is inputted, & augmenting this Custom UpB with Jump or Speed is fantastic either way. Despite the reach of MAS being shorter, it can put in work given the right character MU.

Power Vision & Why:

See first core set reason.

This set can be useful for Doubles thanks to DMArts, & I would type my final 3rd set but I'm tired & can't contribute to the conversations of discussions.

 

[Berserker.]

Can we decide on which air slash we're using? Or which back slash?

I think the critical sets only need the monado arts to be swapped. Decisive is actually good. Decisive buster has insane damage potential and it's not really that "out of there" to camp with smash. Also, no one can shrug off how deadly Decisive speed Shulk is.

The other 3 specials should stay constant. Down B should stay as Power vision for obvious reasons.

Back slash charge/Back slash is still up for debate. I'll say back slash charge is our default for now until I'm convinced that the super armor isn't that much of use or help. I'm fully aware that BSC can be interrupted but regardless, the super armor works most of the time.

Honestly, I think we should stick to air slash because it's a better recovery than advancing air slash

1313
2313
3313

The niche sets can be played around with

 

[NairWizard]

I'd rather take Mighty Air Slash than Air Slash if we have to avoid Advancing Air Slash. If the reasoning is that we want a better recovery, then Mighty Air Slash provides that.

 

[Masonomace]

Another trivial bonus reason of using AAS at all is from a grab-release we have on Wario; we can grab > pummel > guaranteed AAS both hits on his air-release animation which is free damage for us. As for AAS even being in the critical criteria, I'll say no because of the recovery department despite the sweetspotting ledge-grab usage, & the platform dropping of canceling the lag.

I nominate AS to be the one over AAS, but I'm in debate over myself over MAS & AS. ****.

I say BS over BSL despite that rogue 18% we could totally utilize, but alas BS is well, better I guess. BSC imo though should be a close 2nd to BS.

I'd rather take Mighty Air Slash than Air Slash if we have to avoid Advancing Air Slash. If the reasoning is that we want a better recovery, then Mighty Air Slash provides that.

The slight issue with MAS compared to AS is that MAS doesn't drift well during the Fall Special animation, like at all. The only thing we can do with MAS is FF because that's literally it. Granted a Air Speed MArt like Jump or Speed would help, more-so Speed than Jump because of Jump's increased Fall Speed, since we want to not fall fast & drift fast but fall normally while having better Air Speed for more horizontal drifting distance per-say we whiff & we wanna land away not-as-bad. But at times I say **** it & have Jump on to FF like a brick & get it over with.

This & the whole situational consistency of MAS connecting both hits by delaying the timing, I've got nothing against MAS other than it's underwhelming KB power.

 

[NairWizard]

Given that Jump and Smash typically want to go as deep as possible for the edgeguard, I'd say MAS is a better offensive option whereas AS is a better defensive option. I'm good with either, though I still vote MAS because I think that Shulk is generally an offensive character (you have limited time to make use of your arts, so you have to *really* abuse that time limit--Decisive may have more time to make careful, guarded decisions though).

I see no reason to use BS over BSC; the super armor has been useful in my experience for landing mixups.

 

[Berserker.]

The slight issue with MAS compared to AS is that MAS doesn't drift well during the Fall Special animation, like at all. The only thing we can do with MAS is FF because that's literally it..

I actually didn't notice that but maybe that's because I keep recovering at a low position with Mighty air slash... Wait, let me double check this

I just tested it. The special fall air mobility feels the same

Deciding between MAS and AS really depends on whether players actually utilize air slash for purposes other than recovering or not. If air slash is really only used as a recovery then I guess I'm fine with going mighty air slash.


Edit: I'm still not convinced on staying away from back slash charge. It's helped in closing in given that I have smash activated or shield if I don't want to get knocked off that far when I'm being punished

Oh, the thread got stickied. Whoever did that, thanks

 

[Masonomace]

I actually didn't notice that but maybe that's because I keep recovering at a low position with Mighty air slash... Wait, let me double check this

I just tested it. The special fall air mobility feels the same

Deciding between MAS and AS really depends on whether players actually utilize air slash for purposes other than recovering or not. If air slash is really only used as a recovery then I guess I'm fine with going mighty air slash.


Edit: I'm still not convinced on staying away from back slash charge. It's helped in closing in given that I have smash activated or shield if I don't want to get knocked off that far when I'm being punished

*shrug* I try recovering normally with AS but drifting a decent amount of ranged away from the ledge to grab it, while trying the same thing with MAS & didn't grab the ledge.

I also tried utlizing AS & the customs in many ways, to the extent of footstool setups. I think a question we should answer first is:

• What else do we use the ASes for, excluding recovering off-stage? Footstool setups? OoS? Cross-up? Mix-ups? Combos? Frame-Trapping?

My answers:
Footstooling yes, albeit I'm trying to master the perfect blend of timing with the right AS & MArt active.

OoS yes, I use MAS under the 2nd level high platform of BF, & any other stages with platforms that are legal. I use AS for OoS too.
Cross-ups I don't use any AS for that currently.

Mix-ups I do FH > D-air > AS or MAS to deceive my opponent into thinking my D-air has Landing Lag, thus they run in & get hit.

Combos I don't really try to use AS like per-say U-throw > U-tilt > AS. I do try to follow-up with it though like with Speed for example.

Frame-Trapping is something I don't do much with AS. Maybe a landing U-air would force them to AD thus make the AS connect.

So yeah. I favor BSC more, but if the majority votes BS, I guess owell. I support BSC even thoughI said BS earlier.

 

[Berserker.]

We're also going to need opinions from Shulk professionals about this

Unless they're sticking to 1111 but then again, opinions don't hurt

 

[Masonomace]

I wanna help convince ya on the MAS falling no-where operation Berserk. Try the 3DS Omega Mushroomy Kingdom stage, or the Omega Flat Zone stage & measure it out from the blocks starting at one end & doing the drifting test that way to compare ground distances.
Or for the WiiU, try Omega Yoshi's Island & measure it out with the brick-like feature near the ledge.
(Sorry in advance if you already did this via your way of testing.)

And I might be decently surprised if the Shulk Pros don't like PV.

 

[Berserker.]

I wanna help convince ya on the MAS falling no-where operation Berserk. Try the 3DS Omega Mushroomy Kingdom stage, or the Omega Flat Zone stage & measure it out from the blocks starting at one end & doing the drifting test that way to compare ground distances.
Or for the WiiU, try Omega Yoshi's Island & measure it out with the brick-like feature near the ledge.
(Sorry in advance if you already did this via your way of testing.)

And I might be decently surprised if the Shulk Pros don't like PV.

I don't trust myself with much so I'll agree with you on this

So.... Anyone here want to tag the Shulk pros?

 

[Masonomace]

@Trela , @ Virum , @Jerm , we all would like to hear / see your typed opinions on what your 3 Shulk Custom Specials sets would be for importance. (If there's more Shulk pros I missed, tag 'em here)

The guidelines are in the OP but I'll quote it here:

We want up to three critical sets that represent the most mainline, important options for Shulk and then to fill to slot six with supplemental sets that may be more niche but will still be picked in some case or another. 1111 can be ignored since it is always available no matter what is pre-loaded. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 so all of Shulk's custom moves can be explored by all players in the early metagame; this will in the long run allow for the best custom load-outs for Shulk to be discovered as quickly as possible with all players being able to use every move on their own set-ups. Slots 9 and 10, of course, are left free for 3ds imports on tournament day. I'm sure you guys can sort this out; you certainly have the hands on deck to figure out everything you could want in as much detail as you would want.

So, what sets you do you guys like using? Explanations for why you like / feel the Custom Sets are in favor to be the most viable / Favorited is appreciated to the max.

 

[Berserker.]

@Jigglymaster if you're interested

 

[Virum]

Alongside default 1111 set, I personally like to opt for the 3313 set as well as a 1313 set. The only difference between these sets, of course, are that one opts for standard Monado Arts while the other opts for Hyper and typically I find it to be match-up dependent. I never opt for Decisive barring in Smash Run as being able to switch between arts on the fly is incredibly important and being locked into, say, Shield or Smash for 20 seconds could be potentially devastating in the long term of the match. Overall though, admittedly I've been leaning overall more towards the default Monado Arts due to some of the drawbacks of Hyper being a little too extreme at times (e.g. too little knockback on Buster attacks, jump height decreased a little too drastically in Speed).

I like Back Slash Charge mainly thanks to its super armour, giving it a unique utility that the other two Back Slashes don't have in the fact that it gives Shulk an additional way to force his way in against projectiles. The decrease in power is a pretty big loss though, which is why I still occasionally like to opt for standard Back Slash. Leaping Back Slash, in my opinion, loses an important utility that Back Slash has in that you lose out on that horizontal reach. Though the compromise for vertical reach I guess could be used for different mix-ups. Admittedly I haven't stress tested this custom too much. Didn't really click with me.

I always opt for default Air Slash regardless of my build. Advancing Air Slash, while is a pretty strong and reliable attack, really hurts Shulk's overall recovery ability due to not having that additional "pop-up" that default and Mighty have. Mighty, while has incredible power and great vertical KO potential seems to be the most inconsistent and the range decrease it suffers makes it a less viable OoS option. In addition, despite gaining a little extra height over default Air Slash, Mighty isn't able to cover Shulk by the ledge nearly as well, making it the inferior recovery option overall in my opinion.

Finally I pretty much always like to opt for Powerful Vision over its default. Honestly I just see it as a better version. This move can kill absurdly early and merely requires you to use the move very sparingly (which you should be doing anyway). Despite the slower startup on the attack, if you counter the right move it doesn't really matter. I never touch Dash Vision to be perfectly honest. Compromising power for a utility that overall isn't even all that useful considering how slow the move naturally is anyway doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

[Berserker.]

I think it's safe to say that 3313 is going to be considered as a critical set. Same can be said for 1313

Let's talk more about decisive arts. Honestly, I like decisive buster and decisive speed. @ ChronoPenguin weren't you an advocate of decisive speed?

 

[Masonomace]

I can agree with 3313. HMArts aren't a bad Custom, putting my favoritism of Shield aside, those 6 seconds of HShield make me feel like I'm impossible to KO despite the short duration of having all that Defense, Shield health, & Weight. HMArts have usefulness in Singles & Doubles so I thumbs up to that.

DMArts I feel could be given more merit to their succession. To this day I still believe DMArts are better for Doubles because they're basically Perma-Arts due to the cooldown expiring relatively around the time they de-activate on their own. Basically what @ NairWizard said. On a personal level I always dreamed Support Shulk would utilize DMArts & stay grounded & mobile, so there's that. I enjoy DSpeed DShield & DBuster a lot, but having DJump or DSmash on is, tricky. DSmash I can kind of see as a cheezy start by getting them off-stage with the prolonged KB increase & having the Weight reduction to still evade & avoid combo shenanigans early on, but 20 seconds of DSmash regardless sounds like a very different take of an approach for that DMArt like DJump for me.

 

[Goesasu]

1113 is my main set.
3113 also works.

Really feeling standard airslash for surviving and standarf backslash for punishing.