"Show'em Whatcha Got, Baby" - Little Mac Moveset Thread - WIP

[Someguyyoulikelydontknow]

Has this been reported on before? I was battling a DeDeDe player, when I found something useful with Little Mac. Keep in mind that this tech would be VERY situational, but it could be useful nonetheless. The DeDeDe I was fighting used his Gordo shot while I was charging LM straight lunge. I hit the Gordo, sending it flying back to 3D at high speed while I barreled past the Gordo. The glorious part was when my straight lunge and 3Ds Gordo hit 3D at the exact same time. I don't know how much damage it did, but needless to say, 3D was hurting. This would be difficult to maneuver, but this could be useful to quickly take out good DeDeDe players (Or at least make them use their Gordo much more carefully.). Please let me know if this is worth looking into or not, and I'd be willing to test out timing and charge power for this tech if further investigation is needed.

 

[Lus146]

I don't really know how well this works or how often it works or on what characters but I think his up+B goes through small parts of the stage like the edge of the main part of Smashville. If they get under the stage and then use their up+B then it will go through and he won't grab the ledge. I don't know how often this works but it happened to a friend and I when we were playing.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

@ Lus146 I merged your thread into the Moveset discussion because you are talking about a specific move and how its properties work.

 

[Spudman]

This has happened to me a number of times now on whiff, I can't really do it INTENTIONALLY yet, but I don't know if it's something worthy of discussion. I mean I figure as a Little Mac player you might just want to keep the KO punch instead "just for the threat of it" kind of deal, but if we can figure out how to consistently pull this off it wouldn't be a bad gimmick to keep in your pocket. Thoughts?

Ack, just realized this probably should've been posted in the moveset thread. My bad. If you want to move it there that's cool.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Ack, just realized this probably should've been posted in the moveset thread. My bad. If you want to move it there that's cool.

Np Spudman, dw about it

 

[Spudman]

Comment on YouTube suggests that it only happens if the opponent spotdodges, so I guess it's not a very reliable edgeguard gimmick.

However, if you bully your opponent to the edge of the stage like in the video, perhaps it's an option select if they have a tendency to the and spot dodge KO punch. If they don't spot dodge it they get hammered, and if they do then the windbox takes them offstage.

I don't really know how well this works or how often it works or on what characters but I think his up+B goes through small parts of the stage like the edge of the main part of Smashville. If they get under the stage and then use their up+B then it will go through and he won't grab the ledge. I don't know how often this works but it happened to a friend and I when we were playing.

With that I heard an announcer say on stream once that Up+B moves will not ledge snap if you are holding down as you do them. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Lavani]

What happened in the video: ZSS landed, Mac went to KO Punch. ZSS tried to jump backwards, the windbox pushed her offstage and she used her double jump and immediately after airdodged.

The landing animation may have had to do with the punch whiffing but I think it's mostly just how ZSS was moving; I've noticed Macs send me flying as Greninja and Rosalina with the windbox when I've simply been moving away from them when they start it. I kind of doubt it's a consistent escape and can't really explore it further (I only have 3DS, so training mode is limited), but I've seen it happen quite a few times now...

With that I heard an announcer say on stream once that Up+B moves will not ledge snap if you are holding down as you do them. Can anyone confirm?

You can't grab ledges while holding down, period.

 

[Jayrodd]

So after reading through this for a while, I was wondering if a potentially addition to the thread could be a "combo-sets" section, it seems like a lot of mac players (myself included) could benefit from a list, hell maybe even a flow chart, of what combos into what. Additionally, some sort of guide to good punishes would be pretty neat, obviously situational, but a good starter could help a lot of players.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

So after reading through this for a while, I was wondering if a potentially addition to the thread could be a "combo-sets" section, it seems like a lot of mac players (myself included) could benefit from a list, hell maybe even a flow chart, of what combos into what. Additionally, some sort of guide to good punishes would be pretty neat, obviously situational, but a good starter could help a lot of players.

Mac doesn't have a lot of "combo's", mostly just move strings, but I see what you mean here. I really like that idea and I agree that it would be a good section for new players to start with as well as others to review on. Something like this was done in the past when a user made a "Combo Thread", but it seems to have fallen a bit low on the thread list and it would probably be more suited here. To go along with this suggestion, something I saw in another board was simply an overview on each move as well; situations you should use attacks, when to be wary of using them, etc. I think this would compliment a section for move strings rather well.
I'd like to gather up a few people to help make that happen/simply get people to actively and thoroughly test these out and post their findings. I've been unsure on this, but I may make a research thread to help compliment this project as well.

I'll post this in the social as well, but I've been trying to think of a few ways to help the LM board grow a bit more. My first work towards this is having a regular Matchup Discussion. I was actually planning to put that in place tomorrow, so I figure announcing that now is a good idea. I'd love more ideas and suggestions, like this one for the Moveset Thread, if anyone has any.

 

[Jayrodd]

Something I would like to add about Little Mac's fair and bair is that somewhere between 80-100% depending on the match up, the knock back becomes something a little more notable. Obviously that's how things work at higher damage, but it seems like there could be some good potential in there if someone wanted to take that and run with it. My first thoughts were situational on recoveries where that could be a more aggressive than air dodging or other options. Additionally could be useful coming on and off of platforms. I don't think the knock back is good enough to chase someone off stage with it (which may seem stupid to mention since little mac never wants to get off stage ever, but w/e). Since Mac tags on damage relatively easy on players, I figured this would be an honorable mention that might give some more options to him in the future.

 

[Jayrodd]

Jolt haymaker, or forward B, resets when hitting your opponent. Was using this as an alternate recovery option during some online matches, a Pit was following me off stage instead of guarding with his arrows and I was able to hit him with the move then use it again to get back on stage. This might only be useful against less experienced players, but it may have some other uses that I haven't personally had the chance to use, so leaving this here. More recovery options could never hurt this character anyways.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Jolt haymaker, or forward B, resets when hitting your opponent. Was using this as an alternate recovery option during some online matches, a Pit was following me off stage instead of guarding with his arrows and I was able to hit him with the move then use it again to get back on stage. This might only be useful against less experienced players, but it may have some other uses that I haven't personally had the chance to use, so leaving this here. More recovery options could never hurt this character anyways.

what? no.... he mustve interrupted with a weak attack. ive tried to replicate this to no avail

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There's an interesting quirk with Forward-B (the standard one, at least; not sure about the others) where buffering Forward-B after being hit with a move weak enough to keep you on the ground post-hit (like Mega Man pellets, Falco laser, etc.) cuts your vertical momentum significantly on start-up.

Given that this is dependent on your opponent hitting you, and that it puts your legs closer to the ground, it's probably not very practical or useful, but, maybe there's something to it that I'm missing.

 

[Jayrodd]

what? no.... he mustve interrupted with a weak attack. ive tried to replicate this to no avail

I'm like 99% sure the guy didn't weak attack, and it happened a good handful of times over the match if i remember correctly, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it. I'll try my best to reproduce it, I haven't thought about it since really. There may have been another factor I'm not remembering, or it may have been a bug, I'm not sure. I just don't think that I would have missed seeing the weak attack that many times if it was the case.

 

[PHYTO-1]

If you perform this near the edge, you can spike your opponent.

Not only that but it can be ledge cancelled too, allowing for more edgeguarding options.

Though it can be done without it being ledgecancelled. Just do it a little further in.

 

[PHYTO-1]

dtilt > fair > jolt haymaker

dtilt > fair can actually be a true combo at certain %. you can test it with the masters of midair evasion (Lvl 9 CPUs), they cant dodge it if done right.

With Bowser I SH Fair, but for Jigglypuff you must Fullhop Fair. Also at certain percents you must fastfall then use jolt haymaker, because then fair sends them a little out of reach.

On the edge of the platform on Smashville, Bowser can die at 40%

The best thing about this is that you dont even really need a stock lead, since they die before you.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

@ PHYTO-1 I merged your two threads into the matchup discussion. Please consider posting combo topics in this thread next time, or if you plan to cover multiple combo's, combine them into the same thread.

 

[fudgecenter]

Hey everyone im a super noob to this game but love playing it (as little mac) his neutral B attack can that be cancelled out of at any point or do you have to let it fully charge up and just wait for it all to be over?

I ask because sometimes i accidentally hit it when playing lol

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Hey everyone im a super noob to this game but love playing it (as little mac) his neutral B attack can that be cancelled out of at any point or do you have to let it fully charge up and just wait for it all to be over?

I ask because sometimes i accidentally hit it when playing lol

You can press B again after you have started up the attack, and it will use an uncharged Neutral B. It still has a little lag, but it's a whole lot better than waiting the whole thing out if you hit it in the wrong situation. Try it out and you'll see what I mean.

 

[fudgecenter]

You can press B again after you have started up the attack, and it will use an uncharged Neutral B. It still has a little lag, but it's a whole lot better than waiting the whole thing out if you hit it in the wrong situation. Try it out and you'll see what I mean.

Thanks!!

 

[PHYTO-1]

Using (Compact) Counter on Recovery Moves

the following recovery moves can consistently be countered given you are in front of them

-Peach UpB and Side B
-Bowser UpB
-Wario UpB (then again, have you ever seen Wario use his UpB?)
-DK UpB
-Diddy Kong UpB
-Little Mac UpB and Side B
-Link UpB
-ToonLink UpB
-Samus UpB
-ZSS UpB
-Dark/Pit Side B
-Fox/Falco UpB (only while they are flame charging)
-Charizard UpB
-Ness UpB
-Capt Falcon Side B
-Shulk Up B ( if you get hit by the first hit you can actually counter the second hit)
-Pac Man Side B (but only when he is about halfway into his trajectory)
-Sonic Side B (doubt sonic will use that to recover)

if you are using slip counter then i suggest that you only do this if you know they will not recover a second time, and that you are on a stage you can walljump off of.

if you are using compact counter then you can actually try to nair/fair or footstool them after the counter, or jolt haymaker if at kill %. (i would not recommend grounding blow to spike because if they DI to the side and not straight down, you might actually die first.) And with compact counter you dont need to have walls.

 

[inconspikuous]

really hoping i'm wrong, but it looks like mac got nerfed a tiny bit. looks like uncharged fsmash tilted down now only does 22% (used to be 23% according to OP), and dair is 4% (used to be 5%) . afaik everything else looks the same. hoping there's something i'm missing.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

really hoping i'm wrong, but it looks like mac got nerfed a tiny bit. looks like uncharged fsmash tilted down now only does 22% (used to be 23% according to OP), and dair is 4% (used to be 5%) . afaik everything else looks the same. hoping there's something i'm missing.

If that's correct, it could either be a tiny Nerf, or our OP information was slightly off. I feel the later is a more plausible explanation, but we should know for sure later when thethe smashboards lab boys dissect this patch.

 

[inconspikuous]

well, it looks like we have a _little_ buff with the new engine mechanic "A+B smash" now. before the patch, when in full dash you could pivot fsmash out of it but the timing/execution was pretty strict, and if you messed up the execution you would end up with a pivot ftilt (which isn't that bad). now, if you do the pivot fsmash by using A+B you can get it 100% of the time, regardless of timing (ie. you could be late with the A+B input and will still execute a pivot fsmash out of the run). just means more consistent crossups with mac's good ground speed.

oh, and i should note, you can choose to still do the pivot ftilt out of run if you wanted.

also, perhaps it isn't really a 'buff' specific to mac per se, as everyone in the game can do it. just mac's fsmash out of a run is devastating because he's so fast, and it hits so hard. and we can up tilt or down tilt it to suit the situation.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I believe this is the correct place to put this.

I found something with Little Mac, though I don't know if it'll have any practical use. I don't think this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.

Normally when you do a Jolt Haymaker in the air, you'll have anywhere from 22 to 30 frames of landing lag (22 closer to the ground, 30 if you're too high). However, there's a specific part of the move where when you land after performing it, you'll have far lower than both of those values. This happens the most consistently at around slightly higher than his normal jump height if you cancel the jolt haymaker instantly. What's weird though is that this landing lag isn't consistent at all and the landing animation seems...wrong. As in, he's just standing there, barely moving at all; it doesn't look like a landing animation. At some heights it's around 11 frames of lag, and the lowest I've gotten with it is 7 frames of lag.

 

[Shaya]

^ Same thing happens with Marth's dancing blade. It has 12 tacked on frames of lag when used on the ground (45) while in the air it's 33 total. If you land in between you get inconsistent lag afterwards.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Interesting. Does it happen with anyone else?

That seems like a weird oversight.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I believe this is the correct place to put this.

I found something with Little Mac, though I don't know if it'll have any practical use. I don't think this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.

Normally when you do a Jolt Haymaker in the air, you'll have anywhere from 22 to 30 frames of landing lag (22 closer to the ground, 30 if you're too high). However, there's a specific part of the move where when you land after performing it, you'll have far lower than both of those values. This happens the most consistently at around slightly higher than his normal jump height if you cancel the jolt haymaker instantly. What's weird though is that this landing lag isn't consistent at all and the landing animation seems...wrong. As in, he's just standing there, barely moving at all; it doesn't look like a landing animation. At some heights it's around 11 frames of lag, and the lowest I've gotten with it is 7 frames of lag.

i always thought that his jolt haymaker would be a great move if it had less landing lag, instead of the crazy amount of lag it has now :/ this is super interesting though.

 

[PHYTO-1]

i always thought that his jolt haymaker would be a great move if it had less landing lag, instead of the crazy amount of lag it has now :/ this is super interesting though.

it would make landing on stage safer which would be a huge plus as we could "juke" out people trying to catch our landing

 

[Zodiacx10]

it would make landing on stage safer which would be a huge plus as we could "juke" out people trying to catch our landing

imagine if i had very very low landing lag. you could jolt haymaker somebody at low percents and then dtilt them and follow up. also recovering on stage would be better. the move now just seems like a big risk, medium reward kinda thing :/

 

[PHYTO-1]

imagine if i had very very low landing lag. you could jolt haymaker somebody at low percents and then dtilt them and follow up. also recovering on stage would be better. the move now just seems like a big risk, medium reward kinda thing :/

heck i can still JH > dtilt people every now and then. but JH > sh dair is what we should be looking at if it had low lag.

 

[Zodiacx10]

heck i can still JH > dtilt people every now and then. but JH > sh dair is what we should be looking at if it had low lag.

ture

 

[inconspikuous]

I believe this is the correct place to put this.

I found something with Little Mac, though I don't know if it'll have any practical use. I don't think this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.

Normally when you do a Jolt Haymaker in the air, you'll have anywhere from 22 to 30 frames of landing lag (22 closer to the ground, 30 if you're too high). However, there's a specific part of the move where when you land after performing it, you'll have far lower than both of those values. This happens the most consistently at around slightly higher than his normal jump height if you cancel the jolt haymaker instantly. What's weird though is that this landing lag isn't consistent at all and the landing animation seems...wrong. As in, he's just standing there, barely moving at all; it doesn't look like a landing animation. At some heights it's around 11 frames of lag, and the lowest I've gotten with it is 7 frames of lag.

does it work right out of a second jump? or just on the way down from the second jump? i can't seem to get it to work. maybe mac has an air game with the increased kb on the side+b lol. still a terrible one, but better than none.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

does it work right out of a second jump? or just on the way down from the second jump? i can't seem to get it to work. maybe mac has an air game with the increased kb on the side+b lol. still a terrible one, but better than none.

Yeah, it can work right out of a second jump. You just need to be at the right height.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I believe this is the correct place to put this.

I found something with Little Mac, though I don't know if it'll have any practical use. I don't think this has been mentioned before, apologies if it has.

Normally when you do a Jolt Haymaker in the air, you'll have anywhere from 22 to 30 frames of landing lag (22 closer to the ground, 30 if you're too high). However, there's a specific part of the move where when you land after performing it, you'll have far lower than both of those values. This happens the most consistently at around slightly higher than his normal jump height if you cancel the jolt haymaker instantly. What's weird though is that this landing lag isn't consistent at all and the landing animation seems...wrong. As in, he's just standing there, barely moving at all; it doesn't look like a landing animation. At some heights it's around 11 frames of lag, and the lowest I've gotten with it is 7 frames of lag.

is there any way macs can use this to their advantage...or is it too hard/too situational to use?

 

[PHYTO-1]

is there any way macs can use this to their advantage...or is it too hard/too situational to use?

not really.......

 

[FanduFox]

I have discovered a good technique that uses the Jolt Haymaker, The Jolt Haymaker on the ground has a distance of half a stage and there are lots of people including me that has gone beyond then stage with the Jolt Haymaker and SD'd themselves, but this new technique I learned can counter this.

What you have to do is tap jump then instantly side b to perform the Jolt Haymaker, the Jolt Haymaker goes half the distance in the air than on the ground so you won't have to worry about going beyond then stage. Also, this is a great way to punish opponents then they get close to you or then they get back on the stage after recovering. I will make a video explaining all of this so you can understand this technique better.

 

[Zodiacx10]

I have discovered a good technique that uses the Jolt Haymaker, The Jolt Haymaker on the ground has a distance of half a stage and there are lots of people including me that has gone beyond then stage with the Jolt Haymaker and SD'd themselves, but this new technique I learned can counter this.

What you have to do is tap jump then instantly side b to perform the Jolt Haymaker, the Jolt Haymaker goes half the distance in the air than on the ground so you won't have to worry about going beyond then stage. Also, this is a great way to punish opponents then they get close to you or then they get back on the stage after recovering. I will make a video explaining all of this so you can understand this technique better.

you're just doing the air version of the jolt haymaker.

 

[PHYTO-1]

I have discovered a good technique that uses the Jolt Haymaker, The Jolt Haymaker on the ground has a distance of half a stage and there are lots of people including me that has gone beyond then stage with the Jolt Haymaker and SD'd themselves, but this new technique I learned can counter this.

What you have to do is tap jump then instantly side b to perform the Jolt Haymaker, the Jolt Haymaker goes half the distance in the air than on the ground so you won't have to worry about going beyond then stage. Also, this is a great way to punish opponents then they get close to you or then they get back on the stage after recovering. I will make a video explaining all of this so you can understand this technique better.

thats way too slow and not worth it. you are better off just doing a dash attack .

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Spot Dodge

• Shield on Frame 16
• Invincibility ends Frame 17

I'm going to assume that this is a typo for "Shield on Frame 26."

Also, I'd really like IASA for Mac's aerials. Since N-Air is Frame 2, a person could record an aerial at 60 FPS and immediately buffer N-Air afterward and subtract 2 frames from when the N-Air comes out.

I may see about doing this myself if nobody has a 60 FPS recording setup available to them.