"Show'em Whatcha Got, Baby" - Little Mac Moveset Thread - WIP

[LordWilliam1234]

Also, I'd really like IASA for Mac's aerials. Since N-Air is Frame 2, a person could record an aerial at 60 FPS and immediately buffer N-Air afterward and subtract 2 frames from when the N-Air comes out.

I may see about doing this myself if nobody has a 60 FPS recording setup available to them.

Already got all that stuff. And then some.

IASA on the air moves is the first frame you can do anything else. On the ground it's for cancels. Total frames is for how long the move lasts (the frame before you're able to shield).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Already got all that stuff. And then some.

IASA on the air moves is the first frame you can do anything else. On the ground it's for cancels. Total frames is for how long the move lasts (the frame before you're able to shield).

My hero.

I still need to get the ledge option frame data for everyone at some point, but that's another issue entirely.

N-Air's frame (dis)advantage on hit is also something I'm really interested in, but I don't see it there. It's fixed knockback, so Rage and opponent's percent shouldn't matter.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, are you sure about the numbers there? D-Tilt is listed as having an animation that lasts 21 frames in the Google Doc you list, yet the OP says holding Shield during D-Tilt makes that shield come out on Frame 38. That's a huge disparity, and I can definitely say that as often as I've been Dash Grabbed after D-Tilt was shielded that it seems weird that shield drop frame advantage on it is -7.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

My hero.

I still need to get the ledge option frame data for everyone at some point, but that's another issue entirely.

I could try and get that next, just trying to focus on getting more of the basic stuff for everyone first.

N-Air's frame (dis)advantage on hit is also something I'm really interested in, but I don't see it there. It's fixed knockback, so Rage and opponent's percent shouldn't matter.

I haven't looked into hitstun yet due to how widely it varies. Not just in terms of the hitstun itself and how character weight affects that, but the height at which they get popped up into the air when hit and how long the landing effect after hitstun affects a character.

On Mario for example, if you hit him with an n-air on the ground it's 32 frames before he can do anything (so it's +15 on hit) since he lands first. But it only causes 10 frames of hitstun if you hit him in the air. On Link, if you hit him with n-air on the ground it's 15 frames before he can do anything (so it's -2 on hit). But it's still the same 10 frames of hitstun.

Actually, are you sure about the numbers there? D-Tilt is listed as having an animation that lasts 21 frames in the Google Doc you list, yet the OP says holding Shield during D-Tilt makes that shield come out on Frame 38. That's a huge disparity, and I can definitely say that as often as I've been Dash Grabbed after D-Tilt was shielded that it seems highly unlikely that shield drop frame advantage on it is -7.

Yeah, I double checked just now. He starts shielding on frame 22. I can make a gif, if you'd like.

The OP lists d-tilt shield coming out on frame 30. I believe he's adding in block-freeze for these (which explains the shield on frame 52 for f-tilt as well).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I haven't looked into hitstun yet due to how widely it varies. Not just in terms of the hitstun itself and how character weight affects that, but the height at which they get popped up into the air when hit and how long the landing effect after hitstun affects a character.

On Mario for example, if you hit him with an n-air on the ground it's 32 frames before he can do anything (so it's +15 on hit) since he lands first. But it only causes 10 frames of hitstun if you hit him in the air. On Link, if you hit him with n-air on the ground it's 15 frames before he can do anything (so it's -2 on hit). But it's still the same 10 frames of hitstun.

Yeah, I double checked just now. He starts shielding on frame 22. I can make a gif, if you'd like.

The OP lists d-tilt shield coming out on frame 30. I believe he's adding in block-freeze for these (which explains the shield on frame 52 for f-tilt as well).

The situations with N-Air advantage on the ground is likely due to landing lag incurred by the opponent immediately after exiting hitstun, which is why stuff like the previous Link Jab1 infinite worked. A shame; that makes it seem pretty awful outside of interrupting people and taking advantage of those who don't know what happened.

As for D-Tilt, I trust you know what you're doing. That's really good to know! It looks like D-Tilt would be incredible for ledgeguarding for more than just the combo potential.

I'm not sure how much thanks you get for the work you put in, but this helps a massive amount for number crunchers like myself, so it's really appreciated.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I'm not sure how much thanks you get for the work you put in, but this helps a massive amount for number crunchers like myself, so it's really appreciated.

No problem. Always happy to help.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, would you mind making a gif of that D-Tilt animation? It could be useful for considering what kind of spacing is necessary to avoid certain standing grabs after a shield.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Actually, would you mind making a gif of that D-Tilt animation? It could be useful for considering what kind of spacing is necessary to avoid certain standing grabs after a shield.

Will this do?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, that's great. I'll just put it into individual frames on gif-explode or something to pinpoint certain stuff.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Actually, a single frame of his crouch would be useful to help determine it, too. Doesn't have to be an animation into D-Tilt or anything.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Actually, a single frame of his crouch would be useful to help determine it, too. Doesn't have to be an animation into D-Tilt or anything.

Eh, what the heck.

D-tilt (Whiff):

D-tilt (Shield, close):

D-tilt (Shield, far):

Held block for a frame too long on the far d-tilt test but the pushback would be the same regardless.

 

[inconspikuous]

Eh, what the heck.

D-tilt (Whiff):

D-tilt (Shield, close):

D-tilt (Shield, far):

Held block for a frame too long on the far d-tilt test but the pushback would be the same regardless.

^this stuff looks like a lot of work man. that's amazing. good job!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Little Mac's N-Air has two hitboxes on it. The one most people are used to is on his glove; it technically sends the opponent in whatever direction you're going, but it has fixed knockback and is so weak that it doesn't really send them anywhere regardless of what direction you're moving.

However, there's a second one on his arm that has normal BKB/KBG, and so its frame advantage increases based on damage. The glove hitbox has priority, so if they're touching both, you get the crappy normal hitbox. You can actually kill someone with it at around 600%.

More importantly (though still minuscule) is the fact that it actually has frame advantage (unlike the regular hitbox). After about 70%, it starts comboing into Up-B, for instance. That's probably the only significant follow-up until really high percents (though I didn't test with Rage, so maybe that makes a significant difference), but, it's something, right?

 

[PHYTO-1]

Little Mac's N-Air has two hitboxes on it. The one most people are used to is on his glove; it technically sends the opponent in whatever direction you're going, but it has fixed knockback and is so weak that it doesn't really send them anywhere regardless of what direction you're moving.

However, there's a second one on his arm that has normal BKB/KBG, and so its frame advantage increases based on damage. The glove hitbox has priority, so if they're touching both, you get the crappy normal hitbox. You can actually kill someone with it at around 600%.

More importantly (though still minuscule) is the fact that it actually has frame advantage (unlike the regular hitbox). After about 70%, it starts comboing into Up-B, for instance. That's probably the only significant follow-up until really high percents (though I didn't test with Rage, so maybe that makes a significant difference), but, it's something, right?

well gee is there any reliable way to set this up? or make a picture with hitboxes colored in for visual help. sounds cool but not really tho lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I shouldn't have to draw a diagram; you can see his glove and you can see his arm. :/

The easiest way to land it would be to jump at someone backward (likely through a Reverse Aerial Rush, to get a RAR'd N-Air).

 

[inconspikuous]

The easiest way to land it would be to jump at someone backward (likely through a Reverse Aerial Rush, to get a RAR'd N-Air).

all good info. but RARing nair seems like a pretty risky way to get 2% damage in lol. you're putting your hurtbox out there for a small (guaranteed?) chance at an upB follow up. maybe rage/DI could mess with the follow up.

related, i thought our go-to follow up after nair was footstool? maybe there's still potential with that DK air combo if we start it with mac's arm. or is the opposite, where there's no chance to footstool after the hit because the kb is higher?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're close enough to combo from the N-Air's arm hit, you're likely close enough to get a footstool. You seem to get this at about the same percents as Up-B and beyond (70+%).

Regular hit N-Air -> footstool is not a true combo; that hitbox is frame-negative on hit at 0% or 999%, so if they buffer an Attack or Special command, you will not footstool them.

 

[PHYTO-1]

all good info. but RARing nair seems like a pretty risky way to get 2% damage in lol. you're putting your hurtbox out there for a small (guaranteed?) chance at an upB follow up. maybe rage/DI could mess with the follow up.

related, i thought our go-to follow up after nair was footstool? maybe there's still potential with that DK air combo if we start it with mac's arm. or is the opposite, where there's no chance to footstool after the hit because the kb is higher?

for the DK combo, only the first footstool is guaranteed. if you try to do the next nair youll just get the glove hit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

There appears to be a fairly significant gap between the start-up hit of Up-B and the first rising hitbox. I -think- the initial hitbox hits on Frames 3-4, then the next one starts on Frame 7. The initial hitbox is where the fist is on the freeze frame (there is no graphical effect around it), and the rising hitbox appears to be the ring on his fist (minus the "action" spikes around it).

If you've ever Up-B'd at an aerial opponent and seemed to just pass through them, it's likely because of this, combined with the fact that the opponent is moving down while you are moving up.

In more positive Up-B-related news, Up-B checks for whether or not you're on the ground when the initial hitbox comes out to decide whether or not you get the aerial or grounded height. Because you maintain momentum until the hitbox comes out, this means you can use Up-B before you land on the ground and get the grounded Up-B's rise (and, consequently, its KO potential) while avoiding the 4 frames of landing lag from hitting the ground.

 

[inconspikuous]

There appears to be a fairly significant gap between the start-up hit of Up-B and the first rising hitbox. I -think- the initial hitbox hits on Frames 3-4, then the next one starts on Frame 7. The initial hitbox is where the fist is on the freeze frame (there is no graphical effect around it), and the rising hitbox appears to be the ring on his fist (minus the "action" spikes around it).

If you've ever Up-B'd at an aerial opponent and seemed to just pass through them, it's likely because of this, combined with the fact that the opponent is moving down while you are moving up.

In more positive Up-B-related news, Up-B checks for whether or not you're on the ground when the initial hitbox comes out to decide whether or not you get the aerial or grounded height. Because you maintain momentum until the hitbox comes out, this means you can use Up-B before you land on the ground and get the grounded Up-B's rise (and, consequently, its KO potential) while avoiding the 4 frames of landing lag from hitting the ground.

just thinking of kong cyclone... if you can airdodge out of it, doesn't that mean you can upB DK while you're in it? i don't have the move unlocked so i can't lab it, but it makes sense to me.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Mac D-Air has three hitboxes for the single hit--One on either side of his arm and one on his glove. Both arm hitboxes send the opponent away, while the glove hitbox spikes (though very weakly). The "back" of his arm (as in, the side behind Mac) has priority over the glove hit and the glove hit has priority over the "front" of his arm.

tl;dr--If you're aiming for the spike, it's more reliable if you're facing the opponent when you use it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The invincibility on grounded Forward-B lasting from Frames 1-4 makes me wonder what moves we could potentially go through on a read and how realistic that would be to accomplish.

Sheik's F-Air lasts for three frames, for instance. Many attacks only last for two frames. I wonder if using that would ever function as a potential counterattack to moves that don't linger much/at all.

 

[CHOVI]

Mac D-Air has three hitboxes for the single hit--One on either side of his arm and one on his glove. Both arm hitboxes send the opponent away, while the glove hitbox spikes (though very weakly). The "back" of his arm (as in, the side behind Mac) has priority over the glove hit and the glove hit has priority over the "front" of his arm.

tl;dr--If you're aiming for the spike, it's more reliable if you're facing the opponent when you use it.

I've always wanted to use that spike :'(

 

[PHYTO-1]

The invincibility on grounded Forward-B lasting from Frames 1-4 makes me wonder what moves we could potentially go through on a read and how realistic that would be to accomplish.

Sheik's F-Air lasts for three frames, for instance. Many attacks only last for two frames. I wonder if using that would ever function as a potential counterattack to moves that don't linger much/at all.

i never knew until recently that side b actually had armor. i guess i'll mess around and try to incorporate it more and see if anything useful comes of it

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Armor? I assume you mean invincibility. Armor would mean you take damage.

 

[PHYTO-1]

Armor? I assume you mean invincibility. Armor would mean you take damage.

huh didnt think invincibility existed in regular attacks. i imagine it would be hard to tell if your invincible or if the attack missed

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

Armor? I assume you mean invincibility. Armor would mean you take damage.

It's heavy arnor, so you can be hit out of it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's heavy arnor, so you can be hit out of it.

Forward-B doesn't have heavy armor, as far as I'm aware.

 

[inconspikuous]

i think we're talking about two different things. does sideB have invincibility for frames 1-4 and then heavy armor for later frames? i doubt the heavy armor part because i feel like i've been gimped out of sideB by firm handshakes.

 

[LCC Son-in-Law]

i think we're talking about two different things. does sideB have invincibility for frames 1-4 and then heavy armor for later frames? i doubt the heavy armor part because i feel like i've been gimped out of sideB by firm handshakes.

Forward-B doesn't have heavy armor, as far as I'm aware.

Yep. I skimmed that on my phone and thought you were talking about neutral B. My bad guys :X.

 

[inconspikuous]

in other news, i have a replay where i footstooled g&w's chef pieces (jumped twice offstage in the air). not sure if that's 'old news', but it can help mac's recovery in that mu.

EDIT: and more strange things in my replay vault, it seems like mac's dsmash has some z-axis shenanigans while charging. a megaman crash bomb goes right through me at mac's shorts level.

EDIT 2: false alarm about g&w. i'm an idiot and i didn't footstool the chef pieces.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

in other news, i have a replay where i footstooled g&w's chef pieces (jumped twice offstage in the air). not sure if that's 'old news', but it can help mac's recovery in that mu.

That sounds strange.

 

[PHYTO-1]

in other news, i have a replay where i footstooled g&w's chef pieces (jumped twice offstage in the air). not sure if that's 'old news', but it can help mac's recovery in that mu.

EDIT: and more strange things in my replay vault, it seems like mac's dsmash has some z-axis shenanigans while charging. a megaman crash bomb goes right through me at mac's shorts level.

huh g&w is weird.

an old post about little mac doing a "counter jump"
http://smashboards.com/threads/little-mac-counter-jump.386519/#post-18561844

OP states that g&w was doing chef and he countered, but the counter did not activate and instead he just ended up doing a jump.

it could be that the foods are footstool-able and that guy simply footstooled + countered at the same time, but counter will kill your momentum so it must be a weird property that the foods have that lift characters up.

 

[inconspikuous]

i don't have a cap card, but if anyone wants to see the replay(s) i can send it to them with the relevant timestamps.

EDIT: just realized the footstool one was a mistake. the g&w threw out some uair windboxes that i didn't notice. sorry, i'm an idiot. lol.

...but the zaxis dsmash one legit passes through mac's shorts. true story. you gotta believe me.

 

[PHYTO-1]

i don't have a cap card, but if anyone wants to see the replay(s) i can send it to them with the relevant timestamps.

EDIT: just realized the footstool one was a mistake. the g&w threw out some uair windboxes that i didn't notice. sorry, i'm an idiot. lol.

...but the zaxis dsmash one legit passes through mac's shorts. true story. you gotta believe me.

ok but thats not really useful

 

[inconspikuous]

ok but thats not really as useful

ftfy. lol. not as useful. but maybe there are other projectiles that pass through mac while charging dsmash. i was surprised because i heard they took out the z-axis thing after brawl.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, it wasn't intentional in Brawl. It's likely just an animation issue, same as Brawl's stuff was.

Fun fact: Playing on Flat Zone X (Omega or not) flattens out all characters, eliminating Z-Axis issues while you're there.

 

[PHYTO-1]

ftfy. lol. not as useful. but maybe there are other projectiles that pass through mac while charging dsmash. i was surprised because i heard they took out the z-axis thing after brawl.

i thought you knew that about the z-axis thing. weren't you the one who asked what projectile little mac could dash/crouch under? if not my bad, but i explained how some attacks could only be dodged if mac was facing one way.

 

[inconspikuous]

i thought you knew that about the z-axis thing. weren't you the one who asked what projectile little mac could dash/crouch under? if not my bad, but i explained how some attacks could only be dodged if mac was facing one way.

your post: http://smashboards.com/threads/docs-tips-a-little-mac-q-a-thread.368617/page-8#post-18892346

yeah that was me. sorry i didn't realize you mentioned the z-axis there. but still, the fact that some attacks pass by mac while he's charging a dsmash (maybe usmash too?) seems like it could be useful in some situations.

 

[PHYTO-1]

your post: http://smashboards.com/threads/docs-tips-a-little-mac-q-a-thread.368617/page-8#post-18892346

yeah that was me. sorry i didn't realize you mentioned the z-axis there. but still, the fact that some attacks pass by mac while he's charging a dsmash (maybe usmash too?) seems like it could be useful in some situations.

well i suppose but in the case of the crash bomber its better to just attack it to build meter and leaves you less open.

what we need to find out is which attacks we can dodge with up taunt