Should Zelda/Sheik be considered one character?

[chckn]

Before flaming read what I have to say and actually think on it. I already posted this on the sheik boards and now I would like to see what all of you on the zelda boards have to say on this.I was wondering how you guys feel about sheik/zelda being considered one character or seperate on tier lists as well as in tournaments. I had always felt that since you do not rely on one to use the other then they should be considered seperate characters untill someone brought this to my attention. Is it unfair to use zelda lets say as your starting character for an entire tournament up until you run into a matchup that sheik has an advantage, and then switch over? If it is considered unfair then they should be two seperate characters correct? If not then shouldnt they be considered as one? Also what if someone cycles between sheik/zelda in between a match, who is their win considered to be under? Discuss....

 

[blink777]

I was wondering how you guys feel about sheik/zelda being considered one character or seperate on tier lists as well as in tournaments.

Tiers = unlikely, but maybe (see reasoning below). Tournaments = why should they? Pressing DownB during a match with Zelda in a tournament isn't banned or anything. It could be an issue in terms of choosing between the two off the selection screen though...

I had always felt that since you do not rely on one to use the other then they should be considered seperate characters untill someone brought this to my attention.

There are a number of people who use both Zelda and Sheik together, relying on each's strengths. I'm not one of those people, so I can legitimize it, but it exists.

Is it unfair to use zelda lets say as your starting character for an entire tournament up until you run into a matchup that sheik has an advantage, and then switch over?

It's the way the character was made to work. Honestly, why do you think that the developers put in their DownB? Besides, most tournaments allow players to counterpick characters anyway. No, it's not unfair.

Also what if someone cycles between sheik/zelda in between a match, who is their win considered to be under? Discuss....

Are you talking in terms of deciding what the character's tier position will be? The current metagame doesn't have a lot of people using both Zelda and Sheik together. If this strategy became a more viable and widely used tactic, then perhaps the BackRoom will decide to have Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik each in their own tier positions.

I really, really don't get what you're trying to get at...

 

[chckn]

Tiers = unlikely, but maybe (see reasoning below). Tournaments = why should they? Pressing DownB during a match with Zelda in a tournament isn't banned or anything. It could be an issue in terms of choosing between the two off the selection screen though...


There are a number of people who use both Zelda and Sheik together, relying on each's strengths. I'm not one of those people, so I can legitimize it, but it exists.


It's the way the character was made to work. Honestly, why do you think that the developers put in their DownB? Besides, most tournaments allow players to counterpick characters anyway. No, it's not unfair.


Are you talking in terms of deciding what the character's tier position will be? The current metagame doesn't have a lot of people using both Zelda and Sheik together. If this strategy became a more viable and widely used tactic, then perhaps the BackRoom will decide to have Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik each in their own tier positions.

I really, really don't get what you're trying to get at...

Two issues, firstly the issue of where they would stand on a tier list. Secondly, if one the selection screen choosing sheik instead of zelda, after seeing your opponents character is considered counterpicking?

 

[S2]

I'll weigh in on this.

Keep in mind that while I am a Zelda "main", I have no reservations between switching back and forth. I use Sheik a lot, especially to start of matches in order to rack up damage so that Zelda will have no stale move decay when it's time to KO. Choosing Zelda/Sheik will be based on a matchup. It's foolish not to play Sheik over Zelda against certain characters.

But onto the topic...

First, they are the same character.

But because Zelda/Sheik can switch back and forth, in some aspects each needs to be evaluated individually.

Tier lists or matchups is a good example.

Depending on which character you are, a matchup might be completely different. For instance ROB. Sheik has a disadvantage, Zelda has an advantage. Since each acts like a full character, we weigh the matchups individually since you can't be both Sheik/Zelda at the same time (literally).

The tier list is another problem. Theoretically you could combine the strengths of both Sheik/Zelda and use that for a tier placement, but there is a flaw in this.

The transformation time between Sheik/Zelda makes it so that you don't have full access to both characters. You really need to choose wisely which character your going to be. Unless your opponent is at high percent or makes a huge mistake (they are either knocked very far from you, or for some reason cannot reach you) transforming is not safe.

You leave yourself open by transforming, so you don't really have instant access to both characters. Realistically, you're ability to transform safely is only when you opponent (or you) is at high percent or you're at the start of a fresh life.

Plus, unlike PT, a character made up of his parts because you HAVE to transform and use all three (not only is it automatic, but his pokemon don't retain invulnerability if they transform at the start of a life)... Zelda or Sheik are never forced to transform. You can play either one as much or as little as you want. Essentially separating them.

Granted, if Zelda/Sheik could transform instantly without any lag... it'd be a different issue. Then you'd probably have to tier them accordingly. But that isn't the case in Melee or Brawl.


Second...

No one has really defined whether switching Sheik/Zelda at the character select is counterpicking. In a way it is, but technically it's not since its the same character. You shouldn't be bothered about it though, there's no rule against it. If someone says you can't, call them out on it.

I've never had any disagreements about switching Zelda/Sheik during a match.

You could always pretend you forgot or something if you wanted to be sneaky.

 

[chckn]

I'll weigh in on this.

Keep in mind that while I am a Zelda "main", I have no reservations between switching back and forth. I use Sheik a lot, especially to start of matches in order to rack up damage so that Zelda will have no stale move decay when it's time to KO. Choosing Zelda/Sheik will be based on a matchup. It's foolish not to play Sheik over Zelda against certain characters.

But onto the topic...

First, they are the same character.

But because Zelda/Sheik can switch back and forth, in some aspects each needs to be evaluated individually.

Tier lists or matchups is a good example.

Depending on which character you are, a matchup might be completely different. For instance ROB. Sheik has a disadvantage, Zelda has an advantage. Since each acts like a full character, we weigh the matchups individually since you can't be both Sheik/Zelda at the same time (literally).

The tier list is another problem. Theoretically you could combine the strengths of both Sheik/Zelda and use that for a tier placement, but there is a flaw in this.

The transformation time between Sheik/Zelda makes it so that you don't have full access to both characters. You really need to choose wisely which character your going to be. Unless your opponent is at high percent or makes a huge mistake (they are either knocked very far from you, or for some reason cannot reach you) transforming is not safe.

You leave yourself open by transforming, so you don't really have instant access to both characters. Realistically, you're ability to transform safely is only when you opponent (or you) is at high percent or you're at the start of a fresh life.

Plus, unlike PT, a character made up of his parts because you HAVE to transform and use all three (not only is it automatic, but his pokemon don't retain invulnerability if they transform at the start of a life)... Zelda or Sheik are never forced to transform. You can play either one as much or as little as you want. Essentially separating them.

Granted, if Zelda/Sheik could transform instantly without any lag... it'd be a different issue. Then you'd probably have to tier them accordingly. But that isn't the case in Melee or Brawl.


Second...

No one has really defined whether switching Sheik/Zelda at the character select is counterpicking. In a way it is, but technically it's not since its the same character. You shouldn't be bothered about it though, there's no rule against it. If someone says you can't, call them out on it.

I've never had any disagreements about switching Zelda/Sheik during a match.

You could always pretend you forgot or something if you wanted to be sneaky.

Good post, So what would you consider to be the most logical way to place z/s on a tier list then?

 

[jbozz1217]

I use Zelda and Sheik together, but still do feel like they should be considered separately, as people that do use both are more of a minority. I start off as Zelda and just use Sheik when I find that whomever I am playing with has a more aggressive/quick play style. Sometimes I can stay as Zelda, but sometimes it helps to be fluent in Sheik too.

 

[25%Cotton]

no... but i think zelda/sheik should probably considered a SEPERATE character from zelda and sheik >_>

it's just, how do you calculate which one is the winner of the tourney when someone plays both? but when someone plays just ONE of the characters, then obviously the combination as a title doesn't fit =\

i still talk strangely, but that's just how i talk, sorry XD


anyway, i used to use zelda/sheik... but now i only ever transform when i'm either doing VERY badly (in which case it would be optimal to switch characters), VERY well (in which case i need to recharge my attacks, hence transform+transform back), or during free-for-alls (when i'm just in it for the fun). but yeah, i consider zelda and sheik two SEPERATE mains for me, who just happen to be on the same character select icon.

 

[chckn]

no... but i think zelda/sheik should probably considered a SEPERATE character from zelda and sheik >_>

it's just, how do you calculate which one is the winner of the tourney when someone plays both? but when someone plays just ONE of the characters, then obviously the combination as a title doesn't fit =\

i still talk strangely, but that's just how i talk, sorry XD


anyway, i used to use zelda/sheik... but now i only ever transform when i'm either doing VERY badly (in which case it would be optimal to switch characters), VERY well (in which case i need to recharge my attacks, hence transform+transform back), or during free-for-alls (when i'm just in it for the fun). but yeah, i consider zelda and sheik two SEPERATE mains for me, who just happen to be on the same character select icon.

so then do you feel it is unfair to cycle between the two at the character selection sceen depending on matchups?

 

[25%Cotton]

so then do you feel it is unfair to cycle between the two at the character selection sceen depending on matchups?

no. it's like the whole wavedashing debate. if it's possible in the game, why shouldn't we be able to exploit it?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Well, if you're going to say that about Sheik/Zelda (not you, I mean, people in general) then you have to say the same for Samus/Zamus. It's pretty much the exact same thing. Actually, even worse, since they both have seperate down-B moves. Heck, Pokemon Trainer is like Sheik/Zelda with three personalities too.

Anyway, you can play them seperately or together. It's like one character with two strategies for me.

Basically, I think that arguement is just a sore losers way of whining. (Again, not you personally).

I think it was important that one character heavily out-performs compared to the other. If you had Melee's Sheik with Brawl's Zelda, they would be unstoppable. There's a balance to them.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Definitely should be the same character, good players can effectibely use both, making her VERY hard to counterpick, and some matchups, like ROB, actually become more favoured for Zelda/Shiek if you are willing to switch between Zelda and shiek.

True, some people only play one or the other, but, then they aren't using the character to it's full potential. That's all that means.

 

[Ztarfish]

they ARE different characters.
but you have the freedom to use either one in the same match

That's the whole point of them.

 

[Iron Thorn]

Yes. I'm one of those Zelda/Sheik players, and with Zelda so much better in Brawl I don't know why anyone would deprive themselves of one or the other, except for "Sheik's a ninja/Zelda's hot" i.e. matters of taste.

I think Zelda/Sheik would be pretty high tier, since you've got a speedster and a nuke in the same smexy package.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

they ARE different characters.
but you have the freedom to use either one in the same match

That's the whole point of them.

but, here's the thing,

it makes sense to look at
Shiek
Zelda
And Zelda+Shiek

differently as far as matchups are concerned, but for tiers, it only makes sense that a Zelda/shiek main would play the best possible matchup... so, for a tier list same character makes most sense.

 

[rageagainst]

It's the way the character was made to work. Honestly, why do you think that the developers put in their DownB? Are you talking in terms of deciding what the character's tier position will be? The current metagame doesn't have a lot of people using both Zelda and Sheik together. If this strategy became a more viable and widely used tactic, then perhaps the BackRoom will decide to have Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik each in their own tier positions.

you think too highly of the developers, they barely had ANY idea how the metagame would turn out. If someone used a Zelda/sheik and won a match in a tournament, lets say starting as shiek and switching to Zelda, it should be said the character he used was Zelda/Sheik, because when they are used together, their worth would be different than used alone, so yes if a tier list is made Zelda, Sheik, and Zelda/Sheik should be seperate, even IF very few people use Zelda/Sheik, very few people used Mewtwo but he still got a tier (last) didn't he?

 

[hack-killer]

well ya! zelda is strangth and shiek is speed so they practiculy r!