should you ever change to sheik?

[D for Deception]

hey i play as zelda and on melee i played as sheik. i really like zelda in brawl though but im just wondering are there any senarios when switchign to sheik during a match is a positive thing? thanks in advance

 

[Christova]

hey i play as zelda and on melee i played as sheik. i really like zelda in brawl though but im just wondering are there any senarios when switchign to sheik during a match is a positive thing? thanks in advance

Generally, I don't. Transforming in Brawl takes so long and Zelda is, in my opinion, so much better than Sheik this time around.

 

[D for Deception]

yeah true zelda is pretty nice. thanks for the opinion though

 

[sFoster]

Yes, there are times when it becomes worth it.

For example if you get stuck on the waterfall level, where the sceen keeps moving up and you die at the bottom.

Zelda has one of the slowest moving speeds in the game, sheik has one of the fastest.

On a level like that, you can survive much easier as sheik and it better lends itself to her playing style.

 

[Luthien]

Some match-ups are better for Sheik, and some are better for Zelda. Really, it depends on your playstyle, the opponent's playstyle, the stage, etc. Brawl is just beginning, so no one can say anything for sure. Right now, just mess around and see for yourself. If you can't touch an opponent with Zelda, change to Sheik and see how well it goes. Transform may take a while, but it can indeed change the flow of a match due to the pair's completely different fighting styles.

 

[Me Myself and Jy]

I used it to fix my DR. Switch and switch back.

 

[Ztarfish]

It's pretty much a matter of preference. If you like having two different movesets to utilize, switch between the two when you get a kill. If you prefer sticking to only one, then do so. I don't believe there's any real strategic value between switching back and forth between the two.

 

[S2]

If you can play Sheik well, then yeah, you might want to play Sheik if your in a bad Zelda matchup. That's an important aspect that I think few Zelda or Sheik players use. Playing the form that's better depending on the matchup. Most players really dont' learn both.


The long transform time means you won't want to be switching too often though. So I say stick with whichever you think you have a higher chance of winning with.

If they ever make a sequel where Zelda/Sheik has no lag on transform (or very very little) then I'm sure there will be strats that incorporate using both. but currently the transform time is so long that they are basicaly treated like different characters.

 

[lycrof]

I normally stay away from Sheik. Although occasionally need the extra speed.

 

[Wildfire393]

I've tried the Sheik -> Zelda alternation (Sheik for damage building, Zelda for kills). I actually kind of liked it, though it took a good deal of set-up. The real problem is, in order to do it you really need to knock your opponent fairly far off the stage with Sheik. At that point, why not just jump off and finish the job with Fair->Double Jump->Nair?

I also would consider switching between them based on matchup. Against Lucas or Game and Watch (or to a lesser extent, Ness), Zelda loses one of her prime assets (din's fire, due to their ability to punish it so well). Since I can play Sheik fairly well, in these situations it's better to be Sheik. Now, if the opponent has a spammable projectile (and is spamming it), such as Pit's Arrow or Wolf's Blaster, I prefer Zelda and her reflective power. Size is also an issue. Smaller characters are harder to sweetspot with Zelda, but easy to kill off of the top with Sheik. Whereas heavier characters are a lot harder for Sheik to kill off of the top (one of Sheik's main kill tactics) but easy to sweet-spot.

Here's a breakdown by character of who I'd use against them:

Mario: Either
Luigi: Either
Peach: Either
Bowser: Zelda
DK: Zelda
Diddy: Either
Yoshi: Zelda (too heavy for sheik, and outprioritizes her neutral and jab with his.)
Wario: Zelda
Link: Sheik (easily gimpable)
Other Zelda/Sheik: Whoever they weren't playing (I don't like my mirror ability)
Gannondorf: Zelda
Toon Link: Zelda (projectile spamming, plus can keep sheik out of tilt range)
Samus: Zelda
Zss: Sheik (out tilt her)
Pit: Zelda
Olimar: Zelda
Rob: Zelda
Kirby: Zelda
Metaknight: Sheik
Dedede: Zelda
Captain Falcon: Sheik
Ike: Either
Marth: Either
Lucas: Sheik
Ness: Sheik
Pikachu: Sheik
Pokemon Trainer: Zelda (though I may consider Sheik against Squirtle)
Lucario: Zelda (Sheik gets his % too lethal)
Jigglypuff: Either
Game and Watch: Sheik
Snake: Either
Sonic: Sheik
Ice Climbers: Either
Fox: Zelda
Falco: Zelda
Wolf: Zelda

 

[orintemple]

I presonally prefer to play as Shiek but its true that matchups are important. You wouldn't play Shiek against someone who is a projectile spam ***** like Pit or Toon Link cause you can never get close. But Shiek is great against the slow ones.

 

[Newuser12345215]

Well, you can use transformation to avoid Final Smashes, assuming FS ball are enabled.

You can also use it to reset the damage stale negation thing, so that you'll do full damage again. Of course, that's really risky in 1v1s.

Personally I like switching to Sheik occasionally in friendly FFA 4 player matches, it might be fun switching around occasionally in 4 player FFA.

In terms of playing to win, like others said it depends on who you're up against.

 

[Mac2492]

I've tried the Sheik -> Zelda alternation (Sheik for damage building, Zelda for kills). I actually kind of liked it, though it took a good deal of set-up. The real problem is, in order to do it you really need to knock your opponent fairly far off the stage with Sheik. At that point, why not just jump off and finish the job with Fair->Double Jump->Nair?

Hmm...

1) You should be switching once the opponent goes past 100% damage. At around 120%, Zelda has about six KO moves (well, more...). Once you hit 150%, Zelda can KO with almost any of her moves. I think the only exceptions are DTilt (doesn't KO, but it's good for combos), Neutral A (can KO if he opponent is near the edge of the screen), and NAir (can kill at a higher percentage). In other words, you give up one KO opportunity to gain a huge array of KO moves. If you're good enough, you can even hit the opponent when he/she is still in the air. (UTilt works wonders, as do Zelda's air moves if you can hit with them) A combo I use a lot is DSmash/USmash (Sheik), Transform, UTilt (Zelda), Transform.

Obviously, you shouldn't do this if you can surely get a kill with Sheik. If you're just bumping the opponent off...

2) There's more than one way you can knock the opponent off the stage, and you won't always be able to get a KO from him/her (the stage you're playing on obviously makes a huge difference here). Regardless, you don't have much time to decide whether the opponent is in a good position to KO or not and you don't have much time to judge how far an opponent is going. You should, for the most part, know which way your attack is going to send the opponent. If you know that it's far enough to give you time to transform, go ahead and transform after using it. I find that setting up a transformation is much safer than transforming at the spur of the moment.

So... Sheik -> Zelda makes a lot of sense for me. Sheik can really deal a lot of damage in a short amount of time, but Zelda is so much better at KOing.

Tip: Sheik's USmash and DSmash are perfect setups for transforming. DSmash shoots more horizontally, while USmash shoots the opponent higher. Pick one that suits the situation better.


Zelda -> Sheik, I'm not so sure about. I suppose you could take advantage of Zelda's knockback at low percentages, then switch to Sheik and edgeguard. That's more fancy than useful, but it might work. The problem I have with this is that Sheik doesn't have many KO moves. You have to rely on speed and off-screen hits unless you want to KO at moderately high percentages. (USmash is the exception... It can KO at a little over 100% if I remember correctly) Why would you switch from a KO character into this, though? It can work, but it won't "flow".

I don't see any reason to switch from Zelda to Sheik in the middle of the battle unless your actual battle plan is Sheik -> Zelda OR you're countering your opponent's character.

 

[S2]

If you could switch faster, playing as Sheik to rack up damage and then switching to Zelda would be godly. But alas, the transformation time makes this hard.

 

[Mac2492]

If you could switch faster, playing as Sheik to rack up damage and then switching to Zelda would be godly. But alas, the transformation time makes this hard.

I already suggested that transformation time isn't a problem if you transform at the right time. If your opponent is on the other side of a large stage, you have plenty of time to transform. If your opponent is far under you, you have time to transform. If you hit the opponent far away, you can transform safely.

I set up an experiment, but I was only able to test it on my little brother (who isn't very good). Level 9 computers were also unable to hit me.
Link: http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4218531&postcount=31

 

[outofdashdwz]

I tend to have a harder time against small characters, but sometimes start the match with Zelda anyway to see which way it's going. In these cases, down B is usually my friend...

 

[Admiral Pit]

Nope, I'm 100% Zelda and if i was to turn into Sheik, that means I accidently pushed Down+B. I just prefer Zelda's style and her powerful moves. Plus her Up+B is good as an offensive, defensive, evasive, and for mindgames. Her reflector is also a benefit to my style, which could teach those projectile spammers a lesson. *Cough* Pikachu *Cough*

 

[rampant_apart]

I use Sheik sometimes, when I want a change of pace, and yes, if I want to force my opponent to adapt to a different style on the fly. However, like many have said, finding time to transform is the trick. I play with a good group of friends that don't mind if I pause to cut the transformation time down, but I'm a little SOL on wifi matches. Still, this can be a helpful strategy if implemented correctly.

It won't be upsetting any tier listings, but I suggest every Zelda play try this strategy out at least a little bit, if only to see if it is for you.

 

[CountChckula]

I say of course you shoudl change! They are one character and you have the transform move for a reason. The character is best utilazed when used as one character and not limited by saying "i am never gonna switch b/c i play zelda not shiek." If u can master the balence between one of the fastest characters in the game, and a K.O. beast, the character as a whole can be extreemly effective in almost every situation

 

[FirebyrdXX]

I was losing to a Kirby, so I changed to Sheik and got a come from behind win. Transforming definitely has its place. I personally hate fighting small characters as Zelda, which is where Sheik comes in handy the most. Rest of the time I'm always Zelda.

 

[Ghost Slime]

Even though the transformation takes MUCH longer in Brawl, I still think switching from Sheik to Zelda in the middle of the match is useful. Her moves are very deadly when they haven't been diminished in damage and knockback.

 

[thecatinthehat]

I play a hybrid Zelda as a second, transforming into Shiek after I get the opponent's stock.
I find Shiek has better survival rate the Zelda.

 

[HipsterKid]

As a person who's tried to combine both into one strategy, I'm going to try and shed light on this situation.

When I decide to play both characters, I obviously start off as Shiek. There should be no surprise there since it does mean starting off with the comboer. After getting the opponent to about 70, I decide to hit them as far off the stage as possible. Using Sheik's quick speed, I run to the other side and transform. Even if the other character is Sonic, you should be able to get your tranform in. You now have a fully restored Zelda. The most you need here is to use one or two of Zelda's strong attacks and you easily have a kill at around 100 percent. If you happen to get a KO off the top, you should be able to transform back and still have time to charge your Needles.

At this point, Sheik's attacks are restored and you start the whole process all over again. When you use this strategy, you can definitely see the difference in Zelda's restored attacks when she's at a higher percent.

Of course, this idea does have things to take into consideration, primarily, who you are fighting. This strategy could be used on heavy characters, smaller characters, characters with Multiple jumps or great recovery, and characters with slow attacks. This strategy might not come in handy with projectile spammers or other characters that give Sheik a hard time.

Adjusting to this kind of technique does take some time to get used to. Not only are you incorporating two very different styles, but you have to find a good time to get the Transformation in. You should NOT transform if you have the ability to kill whomever you're against with egdguarding.

I personally think that if you're capable of mastering them as one, you can definitely succeed with them seperately. Not always will you need this strategy, but you will appreciate it when you learn to use it.

Hope I've been able to help! :D

 

[Ztarfish]

I actually have tried to work Sheik into my strategy a couple of times, and I've found no success at all. Sheik in melee was basically able to press buttons and you'd get an insta combo. I can hardly even get a couple ftilts in in Brawl. I end up taking more damage than dealing out when using Sheik. This isn't to say that it's the case with everyone, just to say that it takes much more strategy and intelligence when using Sheik to rack up damage this time around.

 

[ThReAtEnEd]

i sometimes transform to sheik in a 1v1 either in the beginning or during the match to rack up quick damage at low percents

then switch to zelda for the insta-kill and switch back and forth

but that's only sometimes...i rarely do it

 

[PK-ow!]

Just a thought: Switching chars midfight would prevent your opponent from 'adapting' to your playstyle, since your Zelda game tells him nothing about your Sheik game, and the converse.
The degree of difference this makes is mysterious, but presumably small (unless you have really obvious tendencies).

But ****, that transformation time! I have doubts about your experiment, D.

You know the time is pseudorandom, wholly dependent on factors internal to the Wii as a processor. It doesn't preload the character information (genius. !@&+#%$ brilliant, Nintendo).

In any case, I myself won't do it. I hate Sheik. D:

EDIT: Tying in to what S2 said, I saw a vid where Zelda transformed, and Luigi showed up and used Up-B.

K.

O.

 

[S2]

The transform time really kills any strategy for using both characters. That's kind of a bummer.

Personally, I don't think its worth the risk of swapping back and forth because a good opponent is going to be quick enough to punish you unless they are knocked away at such a high percent that there really is no point in switching just to get the kill.

 

[sFoster]

If the transform time were instantaneous, couldn't you just switch from zelda to sheik, and then back from sheik to zelda and immediately reset your hit counter?

 

[Luthien]

If the transform time were instantaneous, couldn't you just switch from zelda to sheik, and then back from sheik to zelda and immediately reset your hit counter?

Who said anything about instantaneous? Personally, I would be content with the Melee speed, because that's appropriate for Brawl's slower pace. 1 transform in Brawl is risky. 2 is horrible. Nintendo should have made it possible, but not easy. Now they've gone and made it impossible, and those who want to use transform for the switch and those who want to use it to reset their moves are both screwed. I don't want instant, but I don't want a bubble bath either.

 

[sFoster]

Who said anything about instantaneous? Personally, I would be content with the Melee speed, because that's appropriate for Brawl's slower pace. 1 transform in Brawl is risky. 2 is horrible. Nintendo should have made it possible, but not easy. Now they've gone and made it impossible, and those who want to use transform for the switch and those who want to use it to reset their moves are both screwed. I don't want instant, but I don't want a bubble bath either.

I agree that it's pretty bad.
It seems like the only safe time to switch is when you or your opponent just died.

I really do recommend switching if you're forced to play rumble falls though haha.
In the solo mode, there is a challege where you have to climb the waterfall..

It starts you off as zelda, and it's a very serious challenge to keep up with the pace.
But if you transform into sheik suddenly the event is a joke.

 

[Lord_Naomasa]

I've had luck transforming from Sheik to Zelda way off of the stage and then use Zelda's teleport to get back. It is risky and I still want to use it more to see if its good but I have found so far its a good idea. I have also noticed that on Final Destination that once right under the platform where its somewhat safe you can transform to Zelda and still teleport right to the edge. Overusing this strategy will mean the opponent will find ways around it but for one or two times the oppoent will be wtf. I am still testing so bear with me.

 

[Dastrn]

we always joked that the worst move in melee was shiek's down B.

now it seems like the worst move in brawl is zelda's down B.

funny to me.

 

[rampant_apart]

I've been trying to use Transform, and...well...my results are okay. I think I need to give my Sheik more attention to be honest. That said, I almost want to say that transforming shouldn't be used every match if you're going to try to use it. I mean, it often will, but don't come in with the mindset that you have to use it when the percentages are right. This will make you even less predictable I think. Yes, this puts more pressure on the player on how to know how to play both characters, meaning knowing how to rack up the damage with Zelda and even finish with Sheik.

Just a thought, I could be wrong.

 

[ORly?]

Does transforming in midair stall your fall?

 

[Lord_Naomasa]

I think it slows you down, but I'm not sure. You can use your Up B recovery though.

 

[25%Cotton]

i do it when either i've been playing zelda for a while and want a break or when i haven't been dying as zelda and need to recharge my attacks.

 

[SinkingHigher]

My strategy is to use them both.

Sheik is good at wracking up damage with her combos, and Zelda is good for kills with all that magic.

What I do is start the match as Sheik, sometimes Zelda, wait until they're at about 80-100%, jump off the stage, transform in the air, away from attacks, and then Up-B back to the stage and whack'em. Since both Sheik and Zelda are invincible during their teleports, there's not much that can be done. Just make sure that when you appear, you are GRABBING the ledge.

There is a huge delay waiting for them to attack after langing on the ground since you can't L-Cancel anymore.

I used to main as Sheik on Melee, but now I enjoy Zelda more. Sheik is MUCH better with light, small opponents. Zelda, with all her arial attacks, pwns large characters, but against Lucas, Fox, or Kirby, it's has to land decent attacks.

 

[Naybewon]

As amazing as Zelda is, I have found that many times it's been helpful to transform into Sheik. There are certain match-ups that Zelda doesn't have the upper-hand in, and in those it's generally good to rack up some damage first with Sheik and then murder them with Zelda

Otherwise I stay Zelda for the majority of the time.

 

[Oh Snap]

After visiting the Shiek board, I'm trying to convince myself to change to Shiek when my opponent is totally owning my ***. Too bad I never remember to use downB.

 

[S2]

If your planning to stay as Zelda regardless, keep in mind that down-B refreshes knockback decay.

This is useful if you're against a heavy character, since sometimes if you misjudge a little bit you can find yourself unable to KO them because your knockback is reduced. You simply keep hitting them almost off the screen, but it's not quite enough (problematic against say DDD, ROB, who have super recoveries).

When you knock them that far away, switch. On a big stage like FD you can basically throw away any edge-guarding chances in exchange for refreshing your knockback. Not to mention, you can simply play Sheik for a bit in order to know them away to transfer back.

Situational, but worth it.