Should there be more then lvl 9

[Falco-Z]

Now that I see what zombie 7775 has to say, I realize we do need good computers for when you don't want to face humans and to get used to your character as you said. Also, I remembered some people may not have internet capabilities (though i doubt those people are too into video games) and more commonly, may be unable to access the internet for their Wii, because of some technical reason that I would never understand.

 

[EnFerris]

Was that a Spinal Tap reference?! Well done.

I don't really care about there being 20 AI levels. I just wish they would make it so that the highest AI level doesn't simultaneously have superhuman reflexes and the ability to powershield at will, even in the middle of fighting other players, while at the same time being stupid enough to walk right into motion sensor bombs. Also, things like Luigi's refusal to EVER use his up-B move to recover is a huge glaring error.

Why, yes. Yes. Yes it was. I was waiting for someone to pick up on that.
If anything, Nines are going to be harder and Luigi won't be such a moron.

 

[nukethemall73]

i might be saying something you expect from a chimp, but if progammers are under such time restraints, surely they can release new downloadable patches with hellbent bots, new stages, even characters? i might be a goon, but i dont see why not?

 

[1338h4x]

Level 10: General intelligence added (No MK2 suiciders >_<). Knows their character's strengths and weaknesses, strategizes based on the foe(s) (Close range? Long range? Know thy foe's character. Bowser would avoid letting Jiggly use Rest, etc), etc. Marth would tip, Kirby would Kirbycide, Fox would shine constantly etc. Chain grabs.

Level 11: Techs, L-cancels, more likely to hypershield (10% of shield attempts pull it off)

Level 12: ______-Canceling (Moves, crouch, etc). 15% Hypershield.

Level 13: Wavedashing. 25% hypershield

Level 14: Shffling. 33% Hypershield

Level 15: "Perfect". Dodges EVERYTHING. Always hypershields. Look for the lag window if you hope to win...

 

[Profanity]

Computer opponents. Not really my bag, anyway.

If computers were to be made more "difficult" anyway, they would simply be made more mechanicly sound, IE, automatically responding to your actions in a more efficient way. They don't suffer from human reaction time, so it's not the same. If they were programmed to take on human mannerisms of some renound smash players, like Ken or ...Crotch Council, it would just be automatically mimicing him in certain situations. It would remain predictable.

I dunno. I don't like computers.

Edit: IF by some grace of the gods they are able to make a fighter that is able to calculate all of these random facters then they deserve a gaming award to end all gaming awards, and a programing award, and a keeping your sanity award.

The variables, such as how far a person will go when hit, aren't random. It's just damage% by weight. But, it really doesn't seem worth it, does it?

Edit2: Why is my sig cut off all of a sudden?

 

[fr0st2k]

it really is amazing at how stupid people are... but .. i guess i was stupid too when i was 12 years old..

PLESAE PLEASE!!! reread LarkOhiya's mesasge.... he explains it really well.

If they go ANY further then lvl 9, you will NOT be able to beat them...EVER. lvl 0 already has instant reflexes, and obviously the programmers turned it down so that players stood a chance. If they created a "10" (moronic idea in itself, because 1-9 is just a scale, why change it to 1-10? if anything 10 would be labeled "unbeatable") it wouldnt be anything like a real person, it would be liek playing a robot, that just hits buttons .05 seconds before you everytime, and wouldnt be fun at all to play.

 

[1338h4x]

Who said a level 10 has to be flawless? Even Level 9 is riddled with stupidity. They'll walk right into a Motion Sensor, suicides, etc. See my earlier post on how more levels could be incorporated in between 9 and perfect. But I see nothing wrong with a "perfect" AI. It would be the ultimate challenge to find the right moment of lag. If you don't want to fight my hypothetical lv15, don't fight it. You could do a 3 humans attempting to kill the ultimate foe in a team battle.

 

[andrewg]

I dont think that they would be able to program well enough for a CPU to not be repetitive or much harder than a level 9 in ssbm. I'd like to have level 20 CPU's, but most likely they wouldn't really be twice as good as a level 9.

 

[Trespayne]

Well I think CPU skill should be changed but still on the 1-9 scale. The range of CUP skill for SSBM seems too small. A lot of people that are not even very good at SSBM can beat a level 9 and that just seems kinda ridiculous. I think a level 9 should be more challening and then you can practice effectively against a CPU. I hope that for SSBB they dont have level 9's shield reflecting projectiles like they do in Melee. Not many human players can do it or try to in a match so if your playing a level 9 its kind of wierd that they can do that but still up B the wrong way...I would love to a computer player use more advanced techniques even just a little bit. I hope the level 9's in Brawl are at least 2 times harder than the ones in Melee.

 

[cyclone248i]

exactly they need to beef it up so that SSBB's lvl 5=SSBM lvl 9 or something like that.

 

[Falco&Victory]

WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL POSTING HERE!
Hasn't a mod closed this yet?This topic has been done.Try searching for
Level 9 comps not entirely useless
tsk tsk computers never learn.Let's make them
Don't remember the last one something like "level 20 computers"
or maybe it was "level 10 computers"

 

[REØ]

Just no, really ******** idea, seriously no one likes to play with computer players, besides they make you worse.

Lv 1. is all you need to train on.

 

[zombie7775]

WHY ARE PEOPLE STILL POSTING HERE!
Hasn't a mod closed this yet?This topic has been done.Try searching for
Level 9 comps not entirely useless
tsk tsk computers never learn.Let's make them
Don't remember the last one something like "level 20 computers"
or maybe it was "level 10 computers"

Why do you keep saying that I didnt search. Its in my first post that I searched. That also answers your why hasnt a mod closed this. It hasnt been done. Lvl 9 comps not entirely useless is a different topic.

 

[Pika420]

after reading Lark's post i couldnt agree more with the complexity of making a more difficult CPU level, that is until i tried playing some cruel melee. i dont know about you, but those f*ckers feel like they're well above lvl. 9. i know there are people that can beat the cruel melee characters with relative ease, but they've been programmed to have high knockback. now, if the regular CPU was implemented with the cruel melee CPU AND have regular knockback (like ANY other character), i see no reason why they couldnt have taken the difficulty up a notch in Melee itself, let alone Brawl.

 

[Eaode]

cruel melee has the same AI. they just handicap you and pit 5 beefed up lvl 9's against you.

 

[shinehex]

Who wants harder CPU, I DOOO!

 

[Metaknights_Biggest_Fan]

MY GOD HOW RITARDED ARE YOU PEOPLE?!?!?

If they go ANY further then lvl 9, you will NOT be able to beat them...EVER. lvl 0 already has instant reflexes, and obviously the programmers turned it down so that players stood a chance. If they created a "10" (moronic idea in itself, because 1-9 is just a scale, why change it to 1-10? if anything 10 would be labeled "unbeatable") it wouldnt be anything like a real person, it would be liek playing a robot, that just hits buttons .05 seconds before you everytime, and wouldnt be fun at all to play.

this is EXACTLY RIGHT lvl 9 computers have nearly PERFECT reflex abilities. The only way they could EVER remake the lvl system is to REMAKE THE AI ENTIRELY. Which might not be a bad idea. You could have opponents that play more like a person than a computer and they wouldn't be as PREDICTIBLE. I've learned that AI's use same combos and movements almost every time. If they make a comp with a more flexable AI then it would be a lot harder to predict and much more of a challenge. And of course take out the PERFECT REFLEXES that they give there comps.

 

[Red Exodus]

No matter what you do to the AI they will still be predictable. There's no such thing as a random computer. They ALWAYS follow a set path, it's just that the path might take longer to get back to the begining of that loop.

 

[Superstar]

Actually, there is a random function on computers. Given, its not TRUE randomness, but it gets the job done. To make it different everytime, they could make the date on the Wii the randomizer seed, so you have to start the game on the exact same second as last time in order to have the exact same sequence of numbers.

What they could have done was to program several types of approaches in there, and then shuffle between them. However, those approaches would a difficult sequence to program in [Think about a SHFFLED down air.The opponent might move, and every SHFFL down air would be exactly the same, so it would not be considered truely random]. It would have to choose when would be the perfect time for each tech, and there are so many techs. Also, you would HAVE to program a COMPLETELY different AI for every character in the game, which sounds like a VERY difficult job. I just want them to be done with the game now. If online goes in there who needs 1 player mode.

LarkOhiya summed it up perfectly. Also, even if they did advanced techs, when Brawl comes out, no one, not even the developers, would know all of the advanced techs, so you really can't upgrade the CPU.

 

[BrTarolg]

i think computers should be enabled to use all the techniques - teching, running, approaching with aerials.

not necessarily shffling to shine combos or anything complicated, but just the basic "AI" improved - naturally things such as mabe using a shorthop to attack may be part of it, or maybe certain characters using certain moves to edgeguard etc.

 

[Tijaro]

Level 10 sounds fine...

it really is amazing at how stupid people are... but .. i guess i was stupid too when i was 12 years old..

PLESAE PLEASE!!! reread LarkOhiya's mesasge.... he explains it really well.

If they go ANY further then lvl 9, you will NOT be able to beat them...EVER. lvl 0 already has instant reflexes, and obviously the programmers turned it down so that players stood a chance. If they created a "10" (moronic idea in itself, because 1-9 is just a scale, why change it to 1-10? if anything 10 would be labeled "unbeatable") it wouldnt be anything like a real person, it would be liek playing a robot, that just hits buttons .05 seconds before you everytime, and wouldnt be fun at all to play.

***

I see your point, but I believe that level 10 would indeed be an excellent change to SSB play. Level 10 doesn't have to be impossible, it would just be a little bit harder than that of a level 9. And needless to say, level 9s aren't exactly "big game" anymore. When we first started out in the world of SSB level 9s seemed impossible. But now, they are just plain predictable. Almost always, the first thing a level 9 would do in a match is to go for a grab. Some level 9s actually do pull off combos, but they overuse them which reduces their effectiveness. Plain and simple, level 9s are predictable and ultimately poor excuses for decent players. Sad, but it is the truth...
A level 10 should deviate from the automatonic nature of previous CP Players and behave more like a... well, human. They should grab only when the opportunity presents itself (not too often), and should display a greater sense of variety in the moves, techniques, and strategies they employ. However, they should NOT be so absurdly tough that they are impossible. They should be challenging and creative, like a human player would be. Victory has to be possible though...

 

[Creo]

I think they should just make level 9's harder than now...I mean, the only challenge I kind of have in Melee is fighting 3 at once and that's getting easy too.(even with handicap)

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

In SSB the lvl 9 was way too easy, and in Melee the lvl 9 was too easy even with some handicap. So what Im asking is how many people think that on Brawl there should be higher lvls of computer to face. Im thinking at least 20 lvls. If there is something I have missed when I seached for this topic then sorry but I didnt see anything.

Is there anything confirmed about how many lvls of computer there will be, if so can someone post a link.

This is just like that argument they have in spinal tap

''These amps go to eleven''

''eleven?''

''Yup eleven, right across the board''

''But why don't you just make the amp itself louder, and make 10 the loudest number?''

''But... these ones go to eleven''


So yeah, I agree there should be harder computers, but just giving them another name like level 10 11 12 13, means nothing. They should just improve the AI in general if at all possible and keep the traditional level 1-9 or maybe like 1-10.

Its not the level or number value you want increased, its the AI iteslf. THere could only be levels 1 2 and 3 but if level 3 was an actually difficult opponent to fight then we'd all be a bit happier.

Thing is though I doubt they can program computers to play much better than they do now, maybe they can make em stop doing STUPID things like walking into forward smashes but computers will always fail compared to humans with even slight skill at the game.

 

[pikachun00b7]

they can't get better lv 9 are just CPUs that try to attack every moment they can get it is impossible for a higher level.

 

[CHUK]

Okay unless u guys want them to spend another few months remaking the AI for all their character please stfu. AI is one of them ost time consuming parts of programming. If then statements, 4 loops, it takes a while.

 

[G&Wismyhomeboy]

Only a few people are actually hitting the nail on the head here. Here's the deal guys:

1. The level numbers are absolutely meaningless. It's not like you could hack into the game code and somehow enable a "level 10" comp that plays as well as a pro.

2. True artificial intelligence is not possible with computer programming as we know it. All we can do is give computers a set of instructions to follow in given situations. Computers do not really "learn."

3. With Brawl being online, there's no reason to bother spending money paying people to improve the CPU difficulty when playing against a human is almost always better.

Right now I practice against level 1's to get combos into my muscle memory, and against level 9's to practice linking it all together fast enough. I can't wait to play online with Brawl. Then I'll actually have people to practice against.

 

[Shai Hulud]

You kids are dumb.

It doesn't matter what level the cpus are. What matters is that right now they're incredibly stupid but will powershield projectiles 100% of the time at level 4.

They just need better AI so they play more like humans. Use the good attacks. Combo. Edgeguard. Spam projectiles. Because in SSBM all they do is spam weak attacks and annoy the crap out of me.

I'd be happy if they had something below level 1 though. That's right. A level 0. Just someone to beat up, but who will DI and tech.

 

[Creo]

By the way G&Wismyhomeboy: Stop taking CN Jokes...

Back to subject, IF they had the time, they should let you unlock PRO... the level after 9(could be unlocked if you beat very hard in what they have to offer)

 

[G&Wismyhomeboy]

By the way G&Wismyhomeboy: Stop taking CN Jokes...

Back to subject, IF they had the time, they should let you unlock PRO... the level after 9(could be unlocked if you beat very hard in what they have to offer)

EDIT: OHHHH Chuck Norris jokes! Um...sorry? That's not really relevant though.

Unlockable levels of computers sounds pretty dandy, actually.

 

[Soma]

**** it, I've been beaten to the Spinal Tab reference.

But, honestly we all know that ai, is really just a set of variables, so honestly, once you understand the habits of the cpu, regardless of how hard it is suppost to be you will have a huge advantage. But, besides for entertainment value, the cpu is only good for one thing, practicing your techs, besides that humans offer any other valuable experience... mind games anyone.

 

[k!llsw!tch]

Make lvl 9 cpus a challenge and not just a number really on melee the moves are so repetitive they usally just hit a all the time and grab thats all with the Wii being a stronger system they can finally increase difficulty and have the cpu fight like a player

 

[Tijaro]

Level 10? Why not?

Make lvl 9 cpus a challenge and not just a number really on melee the moves are so repetitive they usally just hit a all the time and grab thats all with the Wii being a stronger system they can finally increase difficulty and have the cpu fight like a player

***

Bingo!

CPU Players are programmed by HUMANS, it can't be impossible to make them more human-like in nature by the way they fight. No doubt the creators of SSB noticed the obvious flaws and utterly predictable nature of the CPU's from the past 2 games and are probably working on refining the CPU's. However, they may be waivering between tradition (every SSB game so far has kept its Computer Strength Limits to Level 9) and the demand for more challenging game-play. In my opinion, there is absolutely no contest between the two decisions; the Wii obviously has the capacity to allow for such a shift and should go through with it.

 

[Pye]

with the Wii being a stronger system they can finally increase difficulty and have the cpu fight like a player

Totally untrue. No matter how powerful the system is, CPU opponents will be easy to beat.

There have been threads like this before, and I maintain what I said then: the CPU will always leave much to be desired. It's just not possible to make a CPU that's a challenge to a human player. They could make the CPU go into "evade mode" when you charge a smash attack, they could make it try and sweetspot, all this stuff. The fact remains that it's all programming: If the CPU stops walking into charging smash attacks, people will just beat them another way. If they sweetspot perfectly every time, then edgehog them. If they're smart enough to avoid an edgehog if you're on the edge, then trick them into their upB lag and throw them back off. CPUs follow coding, and that makes them 100% predictable and linear in their performance.

The only thing they can do other then this is increase the CPU's reflexes. Since playing against humans isn't a battle of reflexes, CPU fights will still be totally different and in general not satisfying. The fact is, even the most refined AI is mediocre.

Stick to human opponents.

 

[k!llsw!tch]

thats what i mean. Hope that the difficulty stays the same in the way of new players playing super smash just to keep it fair and even but then allow those extra more challenging difficulties for players who are looking for that extra spice

 

[Superstar]

Actually, the weakness of a CPU is not affected by the power of the system. Truth is, we programmers believe computers are "stupid", they only do what you tell them to do, and nothing more. No matter what you do, computers can NEVER emulate a player, NEVER. Why has it never been done before, because it can't. Computers work by if this then that. 0s and 1s. Simply making it respond to you takes a huge amount of code.

It takes a huge amount of work, a huge amount, to make a computer act like it does in Melee. Sure, it is possible to make computers "smarter" by a small bit, but they can NEVER emulate a real player.

EDIT: Heh heh, you answered it first Pye.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

I think they should just make level 9's harder than now...I mean, the only challenge I kind of have in Melee is fighting 3 at once and that's getting easy too.(even with handicap)

............why would u do that? thats not even a little bit of good practice at all.

 

[k!llsw!tch]

thats the only thing i dislike about cpus is that they cant do what we do one day in like somin years maybe but they should at least increase their small intellect by some make them not a punching bag but more a challenge

 

[Red Exodus]

Right now I'm satisfied with the AI in Melee, sure human players are better but are you gonna sit around all day training when you can't even go to a tournament. I think they should just use the AI they had last time and be done with it, nothing will make the AI a more worthy opponent than before.

 

[Sculelos]

Right now I'm satisfied with the AI in Melee, sure human players are better but are you gonna sit around all day training when you can't even go to a tournament. I think they should just use the AI they had last time and be done with it, nothing will make the AI a more worthy opponent than before.

I agree, I've always been better then computers, although I still enjoy things like event matches and all-star mode, creating more modes I think while not a perfect solution is a good way to spice up the single player.

 

[Red Exodus]

I agree with that. More modes are better than 'better' AI. AI will always have weaknesses so there's no point messing with what's good already, although it's annoying being grabbed out of recoveries all the time....