Should Suicide be Illegal?

[Koskinator]

I realize this is sort of a shaky topic, but I've always wanted to discuss it. Personally I think it shouldn't be. I mean, if you want to end your own life on your own terms, no one should be able to step in and stop you, not to mention if you really wanted to its not going to be stopped. The thing is, suicide has always been thought of has a horrible thing and only people who are screwed in the head do it, but I think not. I'm sure there have been thousands of people who have done it just to finally find out what happens, Cults for example. Not to mention the idea of having suicide be illegal is just downright stupid, because the only way your going to actually get in trouble for it is by failing. So what are your guys' thoughts on it?

 

[Crimson King]

How would you prosecute someone for suicide?

 

[Eor]

I think he more means, if I'm going to slowly inject myself with something that'll kill me, do the police have the right to stop me?

I'd say no. Your life is your life, and I do not believe the government has any control over it. If I wish to commit suicide, it's my own personal decision.

 

[ComradeSAL]

There's also the question of whether the elderly should be allowed to ask for euthanasia (they currently can't).

I'm personally all for it. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness all seem to fit clearly into this. Surely, if someone has a right to his own life, he has a right to end it as well?

 

[Koskinator]

The only real reason I would support some sort of punishment would be if the person who was considering it was getting advice from "someone" on how to do it. If they do it in a very public manner (building jump etc.) then I think the person who gave the advice should have to take a manslaughter sentence.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

I disagree because a majority of suicides happen on impulse. Some who commits suicide doesn't want to end their life they want to end their emotional pain. The reason it is illegal is to stop someone from doing something they may regret or which is an unnecessary hazard to their health which is the same reason drugs are illegal.

 

[Koskinator]

I disagree because a majority of suicides happen on impulse. Some who commits suicide doesn't want to end their life they want to end their emotional pain. The reason it is illegal is to stop someone from doing something they may regret or which is an unnecessary hazard to their health which is the same reason drugs are illegal.

Yes, but people who are just going to go commit suicide after a bad day aren't exactly all there. There have been people who are in a completely coherent state of thought that will go commit suicide because they want a second chance at life, or maybe they want to see exactly what happens. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that people can't exactly commit suicide on impulse. You cant just have a horrible day and just decide on impulse to turn a knife on yourself instantly, there is always preemptive thought and planning taken into consideration if one is going to consider suicide.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

Yes, but people who are just going to go commit suicide after a bad day aren't exactly all there. There have been people who are in a completely coherent state of thought that will go commit suicide because they want a second chance at life, or maybe they want to see exactly what happens. Basically what I'm trying to say here is that people can't exactly commit suicide on impulse. You cant just have a horrible day and just decide on impulse to turn a knife on yourself instantly, there is always preemptive thought and planning taken into consideration if one is going to consider suicide.

Not true, I'll try to find a link to it but there was a study that said a majority of suicides were impulse. People do it if they have family problems, relationship problems or financial trouble. A majority of suicides happen because the person is scared and dose not know what to do. If someone is thinking and they get professional help they often change their mind. I mean the law is really to protect people because if you think suicide should be legal then should cocaine or marijuana? There illegal for the same reason.

 

[Crimson King]

If you outlaw suicides, you would have to outlaw all thing anything that can be construed as self-destruction including but not limited to cigarettes, alcohol, and unprotected sex.

 

[Eor]

I don't understand how you can claim that a law that criminalize suicides in any way stops the rate of suicides. Obviously they're not going to be around to have the effect on it.

And for the rest, yes, I think Marijuana should be legal, and that heavier drugs should only be illegal to sell or make, but legal to buy or use. Though that's a different topic

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

If you outlaw suicides, you would have to outlaw all thing anything that can be construed as self-destruction including but not limited to cigarettes, alcohol, and unprotected sex.

Thats true but alcohol is only self-destruction if you over use it, unprotected sex is not always unsafe and cigarettes should be illegal but its hard to make something illegal after it has been legal for so long not mention many politicians get sponsored by cigarette companies so its hard to turn around and outlaw it even though it should be illegal since it is the only legal product that when used correctly causes harm.

@Eor: Making it legal would mean authorities no longer have the power to stop someone from doing it so the suicide rate would go up. Its illegal so that the law has the power to stop it and provide help to those who attempt it. I disagree on the drugs but like you said this is a different topic.

 

[Eor]

The authorities almost never stop someone from doing it, almost all suicides are done in private. Show me a single statistic that claims that suicide rates are in any way correlated with laws resolving it. Providing help in no way is related to the law, we have support groups for almost everything now.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

The authorities almost never stop someone from doing it, almost all suicides are done in private. Show me a single statistic that claims that suicide rates are in any way correlated with laws resolving it. Providing help in no way is related to the law, we have support groups for almost everything now.

True many suicides are done in private but not if a person is jumping off a building but also if a person attempts suicide and are caught even by a friend or family member they can be put on suicide watch so they don't attempt it again and can get help. Thats where the law comes in. Keeping people safe while they get help and if a law can save one person its worth having.

 

[Mann]

I realize this is sort of a shaky topic, but I've always wanted to discuss it. Personally I think it shouldn't be. I mean, if you want to end your own life on your own terms, no one should be able to step in and stop you, not to mention if you really wanted to its not going to be stopped. The thing is, suicide has always been thought of has a horrible thing and only people who are screwed in the head do it, but I think not. I'm sure there have been thousands of people who have done it just to finally find out what happens, Cults for example. Not to mention the idea of having suicide be illegal is just downright stupid, because the only way your going to actually get in trouble for it is by failing. So what are your guys' thoughts on it?

The message I'm getting is that you believe that suicide should be looked on lighter than it is. That people SHOULD be okay with other people committing suicide.

It's stupid. It's one of the most selfish acts that someone can do. Most of the time, those who were in cults were influenced by one or few people, and lots of times, involving drugs/alcohol. Who was that a while back, last name Jones? However, if it's someone who is in a great deal of pain because of an incident/illness/accident, sure.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

GreatClayMonkey's idea is, essentially, that happyness should be enforced. This is not practical.

I think that preventing someone's suicide can potentially greatly hinder their lives. Once their suicidal tendencies becomes legally known, it can hinder job search and leave a lot of social stigma. Given they are alreaddy depressed, this would make recovering even harder.

On another note, I think it should be important to be accepting of people who have wanted or do want to commit suicide.

And as you say, GreatClayMonkey, if a law is worth having if it saves just one life, what if the life in question did not want to be saved? Such is the case for suicides.

Would not it be a lot more effective to focus government money on support groups than on police trying to enforce the unenforcable? Unless the suicide poses a threat to others, I do not think police should intervene. Police have the job of protecting people from other people, not protecting people from themselves.

 

[Zero Beat]

I think he more means, if I'm going to slowly inject myself with something that'll kill me, do the police have the right to stop me?

I'd say no. Your life is your life, and I do not believe the government has any control over it. If I wish to commit suicide, it's my own personal decision.

While I definitely agree with you, why is it that we get fined for not wearing our seat belts? I feel very stupid about that law-_-, never really looked into it.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Perhaps the seatbelt law may not apply when making suicide legal; However, it can prevent economical damage by making the wearer suffer less damage thus fewer medical bills. However, I'm all for making children wear seatbelts.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

GreatClayMonkey's idea is, essentially, that happyness should be enforced. This is not practical.

I think that preventing someone's suicide can potentially greatly hinder their lives. Once their suicidal tendencies becomes legally known, it can hinder job search and leave a lot of social stigma. Given they are alreaddy depressed, this would make recovering even harder.

On another note, I think it should be important to be accepting of people who have wanted or do want to commit suicide.

And as you say, GreatClayMonkey, if a law is worth having if it saves just one life, what if the life in question did not want to be saved? Such is the case for suicides.

Would not it be a lot more effective to focus government money on support groups than on police trying to enforce the unenforcable? Unless the suicide poses a threat to others, I do not think police should intervene. Police have the job of protecting people from other people, not protecting people from themselves.

I'm not saying happiness should be enforced its just most people don't put enough thought into it before committing suicide. It is however a different case if someone gets hurt in an accident that ruins their life then it could be considered but I agree it would make sense to invest more money into support groups but you say it like we invest money in cops who just go around stopping suicides.

 

[Caturdayz]

If someone wants to end their miserable existence I am all for it. There is no way to enforce it if they did in fact kill themselves anyhow.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

We invest money in cops for a lot of things, but If we tell them to do futile things, we are wasting our time. Over time that is equivalent to investing in cops who just go around stopping suicides.

I can't speak on behalf of people who have committed suicide about how much thought was put into it. I don't think, however, that most who do suicide do it on a whim.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

We invest money in cops for a lot of things, but If we tell them to do futile things, we are wasting our time. Over time that is equivalent to investing in cops who just go around stopping suicides.

I can't speak on behalf of people who have committed suicide about how much thought was put into it. I don't think, however, that most who do suicide do it on a whim.

Its not that they do it on a whim but they do it without trying to talk out their pain. Committing suicide because you are curious about what may happen or because you are in emotional pain is selfish because they don't think about those who care for them. I also don't see why everyone thinks suicide is something that is well thought out, it is usually done because someone can't stand their emotional pain anymore.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Holy crap, double post. Sorry.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Its not that they do it on a whim but they do it without trying to talk out their pain. Committing suicide because you are curious about what may happen or because you are in emotional pain is selfish because they don't think about those who care for them. I also don't see why everyone thinks suicide is something that is well thought out, it is usually done because someone can't stand their emotional pain anymore.

The suicide-er is being selfish? How can use you that against them when their family is being selfish (by wanting them to live) as well?

it is usually done because someone can't stand their emotional pain anymore.

Precisely, they can't stand it anymore, anymore as in 'over a period of time'. They have thought about it, and they understand their situation more than anyone else. To say they aren't thinking is an insult to them and probably makes their case even worse.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

The suicide-er is being selfish? How can use you that against them when their family is being selfish (by wanting them to live) as well?

The suicide-er is selfish because they don't think about how what they are doing will affect others.

Precisely, they can't stand it anymore, anymore as in 'over a period of time'. They have thought about it, and they understand their situation more than anyone else. To say they aren't thinking is an insult to them and probably makes their case even worse.

Yes but it dose not mean that they were considering the consequences of killing them self over that period of time. If they were it goes back to them being selfish because they don't care how others will feel about them killing them self. No matter who you are there is someone who would care and if there is then you are selfish for not caring about how they would feel if you were gone. If they did think about and do it any way they are selfish.

 

[Mann]

Precisely, they can't stand it anymore, anymore as in 'over a period of time'. They have thought about it, and they understand their situation more than anyone else. To say they aren't thinking is an insult to them and probably makes their case even worse.

There are two types of selfish. Selfish good, and selfish bad. Being selfish good is when it benefits yourself as well as others around you. Selfish bad comes down to only doing things to benefit yourself when it doesn't to others.

If they have thought about it, and understood their situation MORE than anyone else, they could probably think of more ways than just killing themselves. Worst idea ever. The cost of the funeral, the emotional pain, memories left behind, time and money gone to waste, etc. etc. To say they aren't thinking about it enough is the truth. Does it make their case worse? Only if they allow it to be.

Again, the only time I see it as being beneficial to anyone is if the person is feeling too much pain from an illness/accident/injury, whatever, and has a limited time of living. Is it okay then? People will still always feel that it will be morally wrong to aid someone in taking his or her own life.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

My point was, if the family is being selfish too, then they are both guilty. They don't want him to die and and the suicide-er wants to die. How can you determine that being selfish is a negative quality if both parties are being selfish?

Not meaning to insult, but please include more negatives (isn't, not, etc.) in your statements and avoid run-on sentences.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

The reply button is sucking for me. Waiting for it to post takes forever and I have to click it a second time eventually. The result is a double post. Sorry again.

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

There are two types of selfish. Selfish good, and selfish bad. Being selfish good is when it benefits yourself as well as others around you. Selfish bad comes down to only doing things to benefit yourself when it doesn't to others.

If they have thought about it, and understood their situation MORE than anyone else, they could probably think of more ways than just killing themselves. Worst idea ever. The cost of the funeral, the emotional pain, memories left behind, time and money gone to waste, etc. etc. To say they aren't thinking about it enough is the truth. Does it make their case worse? Only if they allow it to be.

Again, the only time I see it as being beneficial to anyone is if the person is feeling too much pain from an illness/accident/injury, whatever, and has a limited time of living. Is it okay then? People will still always feel that it will be morally wrong to aid someone in taking his or her own life.

I agree with this statement also Quilt like Mann said in his first sentence of this statement there is good selfish which would in this case be the family stopping someone because there is always another away around emotional pain or financial trouble. But I also agree that illness/accident/injury could be grounds for "suicide".

 

[cF=)]

I laugh at everything related to morals. Laws aren't made following what somebody thought would be right, but what somebody actually has the right to do in his own liberty without going over someone else's. When you say 'oh this is wrong because I said so', you're just proving you aren't suited for debating. Your (possibly religiously influenced) morals are not arguments, but opinions.

 

[SuperBowser]

On another note, I think it should be important to be accepting of people who have wanted or do want to commit suicide.

And as you say, GreatClayMonkey, if a law is worth having if it saves just one life, what if the life in question did not want to be saved? Such is the case for suicides.

i'd just like to add that a larger proportion that you'd think attempt suicide on the spur of the moment. not many people (anyone?) have mentioned depression - a clinical condition. judgement is clouded.

people may claim they don't want to live but the problem is the majority of those who attempt suicide have psychiatric issues such as depression/schizophrenia or a drug addiction. yes, there may be people who have suffered a great deal of pain and suicide may really seem their best choice but, quite frankly, this will be a tiny %. (i don't have numbers on me, but i have recently covered this topic at uni so if you really want me to prove it, i guess i could...)

i don't think it is right to simply accept someone wishes to die, when so many can be treated and helped.

however, i still think committing suicide should be legal. punishing someone who just tried to kill themselves is a little silly (seriously. who is it helping?). they need care and support

 

[GreatClayMonkey]

i'd just like to add that a larger proportion that you'd think attempt suicide on the spur of the moment. not many people (anyone?) have mentioned depression - a clinical condition. judgement is clouded.

people may claim they don't want to live but the problem is the majority of those who attempt suicide have psychiatric issues such as depression/schizophrenia or a drug addiction. yes, there may be people who have suffered a great deal of pain and suicide may really seem their best choice but, quite frankly, this will be a tiny %. (i don't have numbers on me, but i have recently covered this topic at uni so if you really want me to prove it, i guess i could...)

i don't think it is right to simply accept someone wishes to die, when so many can be treated and helped.

however, i still think committing suicide should be legal. punishing someone who just tried to kill themselves is a little silly (seriously. who is it helping?). they need care and support

This is what i have been trying to say the whole time except for the last statement. those who try to commit suicide aren't punished just watched and given help until they vome out of depression

 

[Mann]

Your (possibly religiously influenced) morals are not arguments, but opinions.

Where are you going with this, and how is this adding to this discussion? Debates involve people's different opinions and view points about a certain subject. Morals certainly can influence a person's opinion about a subject that can conflict someone else's. Debates certainly can have arguments that have opinions that are based from experience, what they learn, hear, see. These are reasons to support why/how one thinks.

Suicide certainly can't be made legal/illegal. But the helping someone doing it, can.

 

[Mann]

double post.

 

[yossarian22]

I laugh at everything related to morals. Laws aren't made following what somebody thought would be right, but what somebody actually has the right to do in his own liberty without going over someone else's. When you say 'oh this is wrong because I said so', you're just proving you aren't suited for debating. Your (possibly religiously influenced) morals are not arguments, but opinions.

There are some arguments against suicide that are not religiously based.

1: Act as if your actions will become a universal law which all rational beings will follow
2: Consider if a world is conceivable with such a law.
3: Consider if you posses the will to enforce your law universally.

If your action passes all 3 steps, then it is a 'moral' action.
Does suicide to avoid future unhappiness pass all three steps?

The validity of this method of determining morality aside....

I just have one question. How can you state that infringing on another's liberty is bad if one 'laugh at everything related to morality"?

 

[cF=)]

Because you look like you just went out your philosophy 101 course and decided to adopt Kant's point of view, which I laugh at because it's far from representing reality at all. Morality is not necessary when you discuss laws, basically what this topic's about. In fact, we should rather look at what's the consequences on the individual and his surrounding.

I don't think I'm lowering suicide's importance if I decide to allow it and make it legal. This is a rational decision if you decide to give a human being its right to live, do whatever he wants in the limits of his liberty, and if he desire to pursue happiness. Why would dying be relentlessly denied to someone who we gave life to without asking his permission?

 

[yossarian22]

Because you look like you just went out your philosophy 101 course and decided to adopt Kant's point of view, which I laugh at because it's far from representing reality at all.

Where did I say I accepted them?

The validity of this method of determining morality aside....

How was my opinion of Kantian morality unclear? People here seem to be under the idea that one must accept an argument in order to use it.
I just showed a case where one could say 'We should not commit suicide' yet not have any theistic influences.
I am also interested in how Kantian morality does not 'represent reality'. Morality is about as real as language is.

Morality is not necessary when you discuss laws, basically what this topic's about. In fact, we should rather look at what's the consequences on the individual and his surrounding.

Of course it is. Without morality you cannot make a definitive statement on what not to do.
Why do we outlaw theft? It comes back to morality. Law is ultimately based off of a society's moral code.

I don't think I'm lowering suicide's importance if I decide to allow it and make it legal.

Neither do I

This is a rational decision if you decide to give a human being its right to live, do whatever he wants in the limits of his liberty, and if he desire to pursue happiness. Why would dying be relentlessly denied to someone who we gave life to without asking his permission?

Of course it is rational based off of the premises that personal freedom that does not infringe on another's freedom good and we ought to do what is good.

edit: Back to the topic though

The right to life, liberty, and happiness works both ways. If I have a right to keep my life, I must also have the right to willingly lose my life. The only problem is assisted suicide. How can we tell if somebody is malicious in their assisting another's suicide? We could try to make sanity a prerequisite for somebody
to take their life. That just creates another problem.

 

[ComradeSAL]

I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but just because something is possibly morally wrong does not mean that there should be laws against it. Most people would say that lying to my wife is morally wrong, but there are no laws that prevent me from doing so (and there shouldn't be a law, either).

Since most people can agree that not all suicides are morally wrong, we need to give people the choice to decide for themselves rather than issuing a blanket law that prevents ALL suicides. This is why abortion is legal.

 

[yossarian22]

I don't know if this has been addressed yet, but just because something is possibly morally wrong does not mean that there should be laws against it. Most people would say that lying to my wife is morally wrong, but there are no laws that prevent me from doing so (and there shouldn't be a law, either).

Not everything that is morally wrong should be illegal.
Everything that is illegal should be morally wrong. Otherwise there is no way to justify the law at all.

I agree that suicide should not be illegal (it's an absurd idea anyhow), but the problem is not suicide, it is assisted suicide. Where do we draw the line for 'reasonable' assistance? If somebody coerces somebody to commit suicide?

 

[ComradeSAL]

You can coerce someone to commit suicide whether you actually help them do it or not, so assisting suicide should be legal. Coercing suicide is basically murder, so obviously it should not be.

 

[yossarian22]

You can coerce someone to commit suicide whether you actually help them do it or not, so assisting suicide should be legal. Coercing suicide is basically murder, so obviously it should not be.

So, where do you draw the line? Assisted suicide free from the nasty strings of reality is basically giving a guy a gun knowing full well that he is going to blow his head off. How can we differentiate that from giving a guy a gun with malicious intent, knowing full well that he is mentally unstable and cannot make rational decisions?