Should SSBB be less technical then SSBM?

[RedSoxFan3]

This discussion accidentally started in the SSBB Wavedashing Thread.

But has received some good discussion and I felt should be moved here.

Here is my first post.

As of right now I feel that SSBM requires way too much technical skill to play on a very high level.

It takes months of consistant practice to l-cancel everything even if you hit the person with a move or hit the person's shield. Short hopping also took a long time to do very consistantly. The only thing I feel is pretty basic and easy for everyone to do is teching and DI. All you have to do is hit the R button at the right time to tech, and DI you can just hold down the control stick.

Basically I'd like to see short hopping either be a completely different button from full jumping. I'd also like to see l-cancelling be as easy to do as teching. You just hit the L or R button when you are almost on the ground, not at the exact frame that you hit.

Finally I'd like to see them get rid of some of the character specific things that extreme technical skill can produce. These are things like waveshining with Fox, or two fairs in a short hop w/ Marth. If you make something possible it should be something that you can do with a little practice, meaning something you can just get better at by playing with your friends and having fun. Not spending time outside of matches just working on l-cancelling and ****. Anyway I'd just like to see SSBB reduce the technical aspects down to a minimum.

Here is my second post in response to some people who disagreed with me.

I love wavedashing and think it should be kept in the game. My point is that there are dozens of highly technical strategies that are used because they are affective. To me these highly technical aspects, hold others (those who aren't mindlessly addicted) back from enjoying a game that is very in depth.

Chess does not require massive amounts of technical skill to perform. You just move your hand and place the piece on the board. Thought is all that matters in chess, not how much dexterity you have.

I'm sorry if this message upsets those people who spent countless hours, practicing so they can l-cancel everything flawlessly. What I want to do is make it so that it doesn't take countless hours to get to point A. This will be done by simply making the system easier to use. The game is proven to contain vast amounts of mind games already, this is why I like Smash Brothers, not the mindless technical BS.

To me this is analogous to technology in the real world. People come out with new technologies that make things easier. Where would we be right now without the help of computers, still doing everything out by hand. No calculators, no programs to graph functions, no computer programs to analyze the stress in a bridge. Nope I'd say we'd be a lot farther behind in the world right now.

So by making these highly technical strategies, less technical and easier to apply, we'd have a whole lot more people working to make the game more in depth rather than the current 100 best players in the world that dictate what are viable strategies and what aren't. What if l-cancelling was as easy as teching? How much sooner do you think wavedashing would have been discovered and applied in matches? How many more people would have fell in love with Smash Brothers as a competitive fighting game?

As for SSBB, I'll say this... I'd expect that there will still be new highly technical strategies that will come about if you made l-cancelling easier, jump cancelling, dash dancing and pivoting a whole lot easier. However at least in my opinion, the game would much further along much sooner if at least the initial technical aspects were made easier.

Finally as a last point. The beauty of Smash Brothers as a fighting, game at least in my opinion, is the ability to perform any move merely by pressing A or B and a direction or lackthereof on the control stick.

Compare that to Street Fighter and Mortal Combat where you have to press twenty-directions on the d-pad and then the correct button on the control stick to perform a special move. Don't you think that's a bit excessive when you could simply press the down B and pull up a turnip? Think about how much longer it would have taken for you to find out how to use one of the coolest parts about Peach in the game if it took months of practice to be able to pull up a turnip at will and quickly.

Do you even think Peach would have been a viable character without turnips being easily pulled? What if people just now were figuring out how great a character Peach is? I'd have to say the game would be completely different and a whole lot less in depth than it is now.

Peach characters would be complaining that now anyone can play Peach because her turnips could be pulled by even the newest character to the game.

I must disagree, removing the highly technical aspects of performing moves (perfect timing of numerous button pushes) only adds to the overall progression of the game. You have more players capable of performing moves A, B, C, and D, therefore more people will be able to discover more uses for moves A, B, C, and D.

Okay so let's keep the discussion in here please.

If you wish to read some other comments. Follow this link.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=84809&page=5

 

[Rikitikitimbo18]

i think it should be kept technical for the reason that its not easy to master thats really the point if they made it to easy to master then people would stop playing alot of the glitichs and stuff i think they put in purposely for people to find to have people keep playing the game it needs to be hard but its still fun at the same time

 

[RedSoxFan3]

All I'm saying basically is that l-cancelling should be easier to do in SSBB and they should either take out the highly technical aspects of the game, like waveshining, unless they make it reasonably easier to perform. If they want Marth to be able to do two fairs in a short hop, it shouldn't be something that takes a couple weeks to be able to do consistantly. Short hopping shouldn't take weeks to learn either. Took me a long time to learn to short hop.

The only things that should take practice to learn how to do are only the ones that are necessary. Like Chain grabbing. Chain grabbing isn't particularly hard. I learned how to do it with Peach. Took me a couple hours in training mode. However due to game mechanics it's necessary that chain grabbing be difficult otherwise you would be able to do it from like 20% to like 150% if you perfected it.

Wavedashing is another thing that is going to take some practice. However I would like to see the designers offer custom controls. Like if you want A to be jump, X to be shield, then you can have it however you wish. If you want down on the C stick to do forward smash or fair, then you can have it that way if you wish. If you want right on the c-stick to do utilt, then you can do that if you want.

Anyway those are the only things I'd like to see. Eliminate waveshining and other highly technical semi-infinite combos, like Climbers Infinite Grab. Also make certain moves or techs either only kinda difficult to do, or make them not possible at all. Like Marth's double fair in a short hop.

Finally the last exception is power shielding. That is something that should always be difficult. The game will still be the same, it's just that people will more easily be able to reach the level of Peon Smash Competitor. This game has enough mind games that it doesn't need to rely on technical skill to separate the best from the best.

 

[Card]

What I think you fail to realize, is that Smash is not comparable to a Game of Chess. There is no time between attacks, for you to spend countless minutes thinking of what to do next and how your opponent will react. Smash is about split-second decision making and trying to read your opponent and how they would react. Smash already has a very solid foundation for mindgames without any of the advance techniques in the equation. Not to mention being incredibly fun. Advance Techniques simply 'expand' and 'enhance' this already stable and incredibly addictive gameplay.

Removing Advance Techniques will be... well... just Smash. Its not just about "Technicalities", its about "Advanced Technicalities". It's what seperates the casual gamer to the expert gamer. Just because Advanced Techniques are in the game, DOES NOT mean that the casual gamer cannot enjoy Smash. That is what makes Smash such a unique and great game. It's tons of fun for people who dont know anything about advanced techs, but at the same time its just as much fun for players who spend countless hours training and practicing advanced techs.

I agree with some of your points. It is true that the simplicity of Down+B to grab a Turnip, is much more player-friendly than in a game like Street Fighter, Marvel vs Capcom, or Capcom vs SNK 2. The ability to perform attacks at ease, certainly is one of Smash's strong points. But I find that all your asking for is for Smash to just become "Easier" plain and simple. Two seperate buttons for Short-Hopping? No need for L-Cancelling? All that would do, is decrease the boundaries and just blur every ranking of players all over. The game would lose advance techniques, and probably wouldn't even be considered in the competitive gaming world. It's kind of like, whats the point of making a tournament, when EVERYONE can do what everyone else can do with the same ease. Like I said earlier, What makes Smash so Special is that a beginner can pick-up-and-play and have a tremendous blast, yet a Veteran can practice hours on end and still not master every advanced technique and incorporate it well into his meta-game.

Don't forget.. I think your placing Technicalities far to high. They really aren't game breaking in comparison to some other fighting game Advance Techniques (Magneto's ROM, Sakura ShoShoSho, and a whole slew more to name a few). It's not as if "Oh you can wave-dash, that means you'll win". Smash is nothing like that. It's not as if "Oh you L-Cancel every single one of your Aerials, I stand no chance". Smash is nothing like that either. Being able to do advance techniques simply shows the opponent that you have taken the time to practice, learn, and train in these techniques. They may give you a slight advantage, but either way... If you've spent the time to learn these techniques and your opponent did not, You flat out deserve to have a slight advantage.

So, in conclusion I'd have to disagree with removing Technical Moves in Smash. Infact I'd rather they add EVEN more! Since SSBB has the possibility of being Online, so the training people will have, against a large variety of opponents, will TREMENDOUSLY increase the end-game tournaments.

I believe it was Isai who once stated "Just don't get hit." Smash is as simple as that, advance techniques or not

 

[Eaode]

Yes, I pretty much agree with Chibi.

Short hopping is not a technical thing. You can learn to do it in like 10-15 minutes max. Unless you're using Fox, Samus, or Sheik. L-Cancelling is not a frame specific thing. In fact, when performing a SHFFL (with several characters) you can shorthop, attack, and fast fall while pressing L/R/Z at the same time, and still L-cancel. But f it had as wide a window as teching, it'd be too easy and aerial attacks would be broken in casual play. And I don't know about you, but teching properly is alot more difficult than shorthopping, especially wehen you factor in CC teching, wall teching, and edge teching. DI can be difficult to grasp as well. You have to constantly think about where to point your control stick, not so you walk there, but so you curve your trajectory. .

But these things (DI and advanced teching) are not necessary for the regular player to learn, but it makes competitive play that much deeper. Mastering Lcancelling isn't required to have fun playing the game, but it makes the competitive players have someting to work on and improve their game with. If you ask a regular smasher "why do you use link's down aerial so much? It has so much lag", they'll say "well if ya hit them then it doesn't mater.", not "Well I always L-cancel it so it's alright."

Those things in the game tha you pointed out in the game (Marth's double Fair, and I'll throw in Doc's SH Bair WD, and Fox's SHDL for good measure), they're not things the developers ut in, thinking "We'll give 'em something to slave over", no. They are simply tactics found by the player based on how much lag time an attack has, and how much air time a character has. These are not at all things that should bog you down. If you don't want to learn them, don't. You could just SHL with fox, SHFFL bairs with Doc, or SHFFL Fairs with marth. But these things being there just gives the player an oppurtunity to come up with something unique and use it. It sounds like you want to actually restrict smash tobeing played like AAA>Dtilt>roll>jump>airdodge>land>ftilt>sidestep>fsmash. Instead of having players come up with unique fighting styles and techniques, SHFFL Nair>shorthop>fair>fair>l-cancel>fsmash>run>jump>fair>double jump>dair spike.

The game alread has a casual side. Taking away the advanced side would dissapoint many. Fusing it with the casual play will over complicate the game for beginners.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

Add more techs.

No offense man, but seriously come on. Smash Brothers is not a job. It's not going to give you greater meaning in life because you mastered yet another tech in some silly game.

That's what this is all about. People want their time sinks and feel good about accomplishing something that doesn't matter. Why not just simplify the game down to its core? It's about anticipation and mind games. That's what people should be enjoying about the game. If you want to go master some stupid game, then do Rush Runs through Super Ghouls and Ghosts.

Go play World of Warcraft, that's a better way to waste your time.

And finally one last thing. Tell me, if technical skill does not matter, then why does Jiggs own Fox when the technical skill of both players are average, but when technical skill becomes polished, that Fox player ***** Jiggs every single match?

I'm sorry but I simply don't see your point.

 

[Devl]

no, non, nein, nee, oxi, nyet, I-ie, bu!!!!!

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Technical skill doesn't affect the "Lower level" since they don't know what it is. Once they find out, they've graduated to the intermediate level of play. All good games take skill to be good. Since there are no 1,000,000 hit combos to land, and no twitchy headshots to master, tech is an enormous part of what makes SSBM eligable for competitive play. If you take away tech, you're taking away the ability for good players to be good rather than just buttonmashers than actually know which buttons they're mashing at any given time. What would CounterStrike1.6 be like if there were auto-aim and every shot was a headshot (well, it'd be CS:Source, but I'd rather not go there). Would serious players play it? Would it have lasted for nearly a decade? And yet, do newbies who play in public servers have fun? Yeah - Of course they do. It doesn't matter than they're not CAL tournaments, or that in the grand scheme of FPS games they suck ***. They play for fun.

Sorry for unbroken paragraph... Anyway, my point is that tech doesn't affect newbies, and creates from for a competitive Smash. Without L cancels, you don't have a competitive game. You have a sh*tty button mashing C-stick slapping noobfest. And yet, with SSBM, this s*tty button mashing C-stick slapping noobfest still exists, blissfully ignorant of the fact that they would get steamrolled at any competition.

As for this waste of time bullsh*t, mastering a difficult tech in SSBM is NOTHING like getting some random item in WoW. Getting the item in WoW pretty much means doing some boring, repetitive, and extremely, mindnumbingly easy task again and again until it finally drops, or you level up, or whatever. Mastering a tech is a "Waste of time", sure (it's a videogame, idiot! The nature of the game doesn't make it any less of a waste. You could have a job or a life outside it, but you do it because it's fun). But it's not like WoW in that you have an item that took no skill to get. With that tech that you earned through the skill you used to master it, you can now use it against others. So what's the requirement for a tech? Skill. What's the requirement for that item in WoW? Time (I'm not ignoring the fact that you need time to practice the tech, but it's not like making a level 60 character - Your skill can shorten or make that time longer). So if a tech took skill, then a tech is a manifestation of skill, and using against other players means that you beat them with skill. Do you understand? Nod.

 

[PudgeSX]

what you say when it comes to the real world makes total sense...i agree with you about the fact that at times it is necessary to change and improve technology to make it more accessible to the public even at the cost of other people's jobs and security, its a way of life and is pretty much what the United States is based on...

however..

i really dont think that a video game can really be compared to that area in real life. ssbm/ssbb, although nintendo would absolutely die if it did, would not benefit society as a whole and therefore wouldnt really do much if they, as you hope they do, make the technical area of the game more easier.

sure you'd have more people playing the game, and i guess you'd have more "skilled" players as well. but to make the hard stuff of ssb more accessible to the public lowers the integrity of the game. i mean seriously, if you had this one person who had been playing ssbb since day one, and then two years later, some noob decides to pick up the game and with about a month of practice becomes just as good as player 1 THAT would be unfair.

those people who are as you say the top 100 DESERVE to be considered that due to their true dedication to the game. their skill at the game is something that should be respected and is something that individual smashers, if they want to, aspire for...its the beauty of the game. dont cheapen ssbb by making things easier for everyone..

 

[Eaode]

Add more techs.

No offense man, but seriously come on. Smash Brothers is not a job. It's not going to give you greater meaning in life because you mastered yet another tech in some silly game.

That's what this is all about. People want their time sinks and feel good about accomplishing something that doesn't matter. Why not just simplify the game down to its core? It's about anticipation and mind games. That's what people should be enjoying about the game. If you want to go master some stupid game, then do Rush Runs through Super Ghouls and Ghosts.

Go play World of Warcraft, that's a better way to waste your time.

And finally one last thing. Tell me, if technical skill does not matter, then why does Jiggs own Fox when the technical skill of both players are average, but when technical skill becomes polished, that Fox player ***** Jiggs every single match?

I'm sorry but I simply don't see your point.

Tech skill does make a difference, but it is not necessary. You want to focus on the mindgames and reaction time and ****, then do that, no one is forcing you to learn advanced techs. It shouldn't be hard to find a group of casual smashers to play with. Casual players dont "waste their time" learning these things, they just play. I think you're not seeing that as an option. But to take out the technical side of smash (the one tha needs practise) would be very stupid imo.

If you want to win tourneys and crap w/o tech skill, go to small local toruneys at your games shop. But if you want to be famous for being the best at this game, you beter get ready to practise.

 

[Burning Soul]

Both arguments are good, i think that it should be somewhere in between the two sides personally. As a person that just recently found out about several secrets in the game(such as wavedashing wavelanding shuffling etc) I just wish that it was in the manual or how to play video on how to do this. So a good solution would be adding something like the advanced how to play video to ssbb, problem solved

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Where there is a game,there will be glitches,even if they are made to be more easy,there is bound to be more to discover,just as in Smash 64 to melee,there were more glitches to exploit to our advantage.For example:

WaveDashing=Physics glitch
L-Cancel=Technical glitch(Atleast i think,is it a glitch?)
JC grabs=Command glitch

And these are the technical back bones of advanced techs:

L-Cancel(I'll call it a tech too )
Short hop
Fast Fall
Air Dodge.

Put them together and you got advanced techniques.

Here is the bottom line.Advanced techniques arenothing but easy techniques put togeter to develop a new one.It's like Lego's,you take the smaller peices,then build a bigger peice.

There will always be advanced techs as long as there are simple techs,because we will always find a way to put them together to form a new one.Get with the program man,and quit trying to avoid it,your only denying the inevitable.

 

[nomis]

Someone seems bitter about losing all the time :embarrass

 

[tyderiumDS]

sounds like someone's been waveshined too much. The beauty of smash is it HAS that simplicity to hook you in. Then, you see tech, and a new world opens up. It should be kept the way it is.

If they dumb it down, it just won't be that same.

 

[icymatt]

Generally, the advance techs are there for players to find if they want a deeper experience. But if you just want to play, you don't need 'em. This way, it appeals to many different types of people.

See, I don't care about all those fancy techs, the game is fun for me the way I've been playing. Even after hearing about them I don't feel the need to try 'em out. As long as they don't take out emphasis on the fun stuff(items, stage hazards, 'wacky' characters) in favor of them, the advanced techs don't bother me.

 

[rockman2k1]

I dunno. I've only started playing this game about a week ago. But I've been playing with people that know what they are doing.

But coming from a person that plays fighting games, I would say that Smash is alright the way it is. Like others said, it has what it needs to attract the casual fan (and it does it well I might add) and then, with everything that has been found over the years, it makes a whole new playing field for those that want to find something more in the game besides casual gaming.

In the end, the only thing that would be tricky would be execution, But most people should know that you need to practice to improve your game (just like in other fighting game or competive game for that matter) If you are expecting to simply pick up a game and get good at it almost immeditily, then that would just allow for a rather scrubby game, since people even with the weakest attitudes can succeed. Agian, Smash is fine the way it is, and I would expect most (if not all) of the glitches/techniques being in Brawl (how many Mario Karts have Snaking?)

 

[S P I K E]

Ridiculous... Just because people can't figure out how to do advanced tech's, doesn't mean they should take away from the high level of play just so they can be closer to "pros".

I don't even consider Wavedashing an advanced tech anymore, nor shorthopping... nor teching or DI'ing for that matter... Those are easy as pie. The only trule advanced tech's... IMO are consistent SHHFLing, great spacing, SWD, waveshine, infinite techs, etc. Taking out advanced tech's would make the game so much slower, and in turn, so much more boring.

EDIT: NO!!!!!!

 

[pirkid]

Where there is a game,there will be glitches,even if they are made to be more easy,there is bound to be more to discover,just as in Smash 64 to melee,there were more glitches to exploit to our advantage.For example:

WaveDashing=Physics glitch
L-Cancel=Technical glitch(Atleast i think,is it a glitch?)
JC grabs=Command glitch

And these are the technical back bones of advanced techs:

L-Cancel(I'll call it a tech too )
Short hop
Fast Fall
Air Dodge.

Put them together and you got advanced techniques.

Here is the bottom line.Advanced techniques arenothing but easy techniques put togeter to develop a new one.It's like Lego's,you take the smaller peices,then build a bigger peice.

There will always be advanced techs as long as there are simple techs,because we will always find a way to put them together to form a new one.Get with the program man,and quit trying to avoid it,your only denying the inevitable.

Glitchs are what make a fastasy game like Smash fun, especially ones that don't agree with science.
Add more techs! Make the game better for online play!

 

[CamusTC]

I think technical skills are mostly up to the players and how much time they put into finding areas to exploit. It seems the only amount of control the programmers have depends on how much they perfect the game.

So the decision the SSBB designers may have is whether to keep the old glitches of SSBM, implement the techniques purposefully within new programming, or remove the techniques completely. However, even if old SSBM techniques are eliminated there will likely be new ones being discovered anyways.

 

[Blackshadow]

People, i think now its getting to the point where everyone is saying the same thing over and over. Its OBVIOUS that advanced techs shouldnt be dumbed down just cos some carebear decided that he was sick of having his *** handed to him by some waveshinin' fox, so this thread should be left to die....unless someone can mention something someone else hasnt already.

-Blackshadow69

 

[Revolver Roosevelt]

Keep in mind that there will be Lag online in ssbb. One or two frames of lag won't affect wavedashing(which I <3 very much) to badly, but certain techniques could be totally shattered by online lag. The best example would be powershielding: even as it is powershield is difficult to pull off. With about 4 frames of lag powershielding would become almost completely impossible. IMO, certain button imputs should be given a bit more leniance framewise.

Some character specific techniques will probably be altered. Shine comboes will probably be toned down, Luigi's rising Bv will probably be a little easier, Samus' superwavedash will probably be eliminated(although someone will probably discover a new one unique to brawl.)

Then again, speculation is absolutely worthless <_>

 

[MaskofSpeed]

Wavedashing to me isn't really a glitch, more like a tactic. They wouldn't really be able to eliminate it, 'cause then like Revolver said someone will just find a new way or something.
Heck, maybe even more things like that will be able to perform.

 

[Chromeless]

People, i think now its getting to the point where everyone is saying the same thing over and over. Its OBVIOUS that advanced techs shouldnt be dumbed down just cos some carebear decided that he was sick of having his *** handed to him by some waveshinin' fox, so this thread should be left to die....unless someone can mention something someone else hasnt already.

-Blackshadow69

Sadly I can't either agree or bring anything completely new up. Firstly I do feel the need to set things straight, NO ONE here is saying that it should take less skill to actually become good at Smash, nobody. What we are saying thought is that the skill gained through technical ability should count for far less then it does currently and that instead, reaction, improvisation, mindgames and everything else that fosters skill in a fighting game should be given far more emphesis.

The divide between casual and advanced players is one that I feel is completely unnecessery, playing the game well should not require this process of initiation that allows one to play an apparantly deeper game (I say apparently because I feel there is little association between the actual depth of a game and the technical skill required to play, and that technical skill is actually often used to mask poor fighting systems) instead it should simply be a matter of experience and contemplation fo teh game game itself.

Does CS 'need' technical skill (and by technical skill I mean complex button presses to execute simple moves) at all to divide good players from poor players. I could hardly say that it does or that any technical skill actually improved the game, keeping in mind that aiming is a fundamental skill fo CS in the same way that timing is a fundumental skill of Smash, neither game actually 'needs' the player to press U,D,X,R,D in order to actually do any given move or to seperate the good player from the master.


Let me put it this way, what if hitting your opponent with a Smash attack triggered a Dance Dance Revolution minigame that had to be played in order to actually do any damage? Sure it would require skill, but I don't feel that this type of skill 'fits' in with the rest of the game at all and furthermore I don't feel that anything is actually added to the game by the inclusion of it. Advanced techniques seperate the casual player from the advanced player, but how many pro matches do you see won because one player had superior technical skills to the other? The skill at all levels of smash comes down to who is better at playing their opponent, technical abilities may force a player to train in technical skil in order to keep upl, but I don't feel that such skill is even the slightest bit necessary to maintain the compedetive nature of smash.

When is comes down to it, technical skill I feel is a crutch that weaker fighting systems use to prop up how 'deep' they are. Smash does not need this as it has no such disability. A player who is even marginally good at the game will become practically untouchable to a less experienced player, this is true of the game regardless of how much technical skill is required of the compedetors. Smash not only doesn't need technical skill (unless you actually think letting casual player wavedash at will would make the game 'too complex' for their own good). The more concentration that is required for the technical aspects of the game the less there is left to contemplate your opponent, take technical skill away and you allow the game to become much more intence then would otherwise be possible.

When you the the player do what they want, when they want without requiring them to spend hours in training mode, the game becomes about knowing when not how to pull off a given move. I don't mind some technical skill, but I feel that the technical skill that is currently required is completely unnecessary and unsatisfying to all but hardcore fighting game fans. I want to like fighting games, but I find that there is nothing less satisfying then repeating a move over and over again just so that I don't stuff it up when I want to pull it out in a match. It does nothing to change the quick judgement required to use the move itself and simply seperates the players who are willing to put up with repetition with those who also want to improve, but by playing the game and contemplating it, not by 'proving their dedecation' by mastering arguably boring and otherwise irrelivent skills.

If you find such play satisfying, good for you, but I do not. I would compete in the higher tournaments, but I find that 'proving my dedecation' to the game is more boring then doing maths homework, it does nothing but destroy my desire to improve at the game and adds little to the other dynamics that exist independently of it.

I see every reason to add a wavedashing button to Brawl.

 

[Blind]

I think Smash balances technical skill and mental acuity very well as it is.

Many players use techniques now that only came about because they were willing to push the limits of the physics engine. By timing THIS move to start right after THAT one, you execute a fine looking sequence with a powerful effect. People are going to explore this sort of avenue regardless of how simple the game.

Why do you think the technical side of Smash even exists? Players did not know much about how to "really" play this game at first, and we were all full jumping, rolling, smashing newbies. But then people, in an effort to win, started exploring the uses of other moves. They wondered WHY sometimes you made a smaller jump, figured out the secret, and practiced to have control. Then somebody realized you had enough time to do TWO of Marth's f-airs in a single short hop. Do you think the designers plotted this out? I doubt it. It's merely a result of the physics engine, and people pushing it to its max.

No matter what happens, people will find the harder stuff to do; however, if the game is so simple that it won't allow them to explore and improve this in this way, it will get boring quickly. People won't find new techniques, new combinations, and competition will grow stale. For us, as competitive smashers, this would suck incredibly. Of course, there are people who have played the game for years doing nothing but smashing and rolling, so in the mass market scheme of things, those folks would never notice. But we, the competitive community, have to hope that the game will allow for this kind of expansion of our playstyles, or we won't have a game to compete in.

Lastly, for the people claiming that practicing and learning about video games for a competitive purpose is a waste of time... you're on a message board for competitive Smash Bros. This website, the whole COMMUNITY, is devoted to people who are trying to improve themselves at this game and enjoy its intricacies. If it seems like a waste of time to you, then why are you here?

 

[zuloon]

Yes, but chess does not have the same level of freedom.

 

[NG7]

You lose automatically because Blind posted.

 

[Marmalade]

i dont know what i would do with out advance techs now but a year ago i never knew they exsited and i still loved the game i play literly everyday with my friends but now that we got in to competitve play its even more fun to see what each of us can do i think the adv tech make everthing better becasue its a fighting game there has to be a way for you to be better becouse you practice whats the point if you cant get better ...........so basicly what blind said.

 

[Light]

I think you are blowing the difficulty of tech skills out of porportion. Even my 8 year old little sister learned how to wavedash and short hop under 10 minutes, lol. If you wont devote some effort into developing tech skills, please don't ruin it for others.

 

[SN3S]

I think you are blowing the difficulty of tech skills out of porportion. Even my 8 year old little sister learned how to wavedash and short hop under 10 minutes, lol. If you wont devote some effort into developing tech skills, please don't ruin it for others.

Yeah, my bro can wavedash with luigi, and he's 8 too.

I don't want smash to be like MvC or SC, not that I don't like those games.

It's just that smash is special the way it is, all the advanced techs are what appealed to me in the first place.

 

[maelstrom218]

The majority of fighting games out there--the ones played at a competitive level, at any rate--are all pretty technical. Personally, I think that Smash requires little effort to become decent. The only tech stuff you need is DI, shffl'ing, and teching, not counting character-specific stuff. And these are all pretty easy to learn. Smash has always been about mindgames, anyways.

Compare Smash to GGXX, and you'll realize just how artfully simplistic Smash is. In GGXX, False-Roman Cancelling (basically, pressing buttons to remove lag from an attack like L-cancelling) has a 1-2 frame window. On top of that, there's lots of crazy button inputs like jump installing, tiger kneeing, buffering. . .Smash is much more simple than you realize.

 

[Skywalker]

All techs should be in Brawl. Period.

 

[Chromeless]

*sigh*

I still think it comes down to preference. I just don't want to play againt the control, I simply don't care for such things even if the rest of you do, I have never played any fighting game for the the technical challenge, to me that takes away what I enjoy about the genre, the fact that you are figthing against another person and are trying to break them, to unmake their mind and outplay them. To me, technical aspects simply get in the way of what I really want to do, I want to fight and the reason I play Smash is because of how you fight.

I play Smash for the same reasons Blind does, because it allow you to improvise and come up with new ways of playing. However, these new ways of playing need not require more technical ability then necessary. I play because you are able to improvise strategies on the fly far more easily then in any other fighter, inevitably new ways of playing which require greater technical exertion will be found, I am not here to deny that, I am simply here to say that I believe the basics should be as simple as possible.

I never said I couldn't SH or WD, I just find that the technical skill required to do them destroys their spontaniety for all but the highest level of play. I fully believe that the game at its highest level should be simply an extention of what it is at a lower level, there is no reason whatsoever to withold the beauty of wavedashing from the casual player. I simply care far, far more about discovering things in relation to my opponent then in relation to the game. When I used reflector to stall inches in front of my brother's USmash, I felt satisfied, not because it required any technical skill, but because I was able to simply improvise a tactic at will and use it.

I simply want you all to understand my perspective, I'm not here to complain about how compedetive Smash 'sucks because its too hard', I'm here because I don't believe in playing the controler, I believe that the controler should be an extention of your body as much as possible, an instrument through which you will your moves and that skill should be about how well you play against your opponent. I believe in this because I believe that with WDing modified and included as a basic technique (requiering only one button press) your ability to improve at the game against your opponent in virtually limitless.

You can disagree, but that does not make anyone's oppinion superior to that of another.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Wavedashing would be nice. Spot dodging, air dodging, etc. must stay. L cancelling must stay. Short hopping must stay. Teching of walls, cielings, and floors must stay. The only really unintended tech that's debatable is WDing.

 

[ecstatic]

I think lcanceling should go. Without that, the other techs are useful, but not very game-changing. If that happens, then the game revolves mind skill such as stradegy, mind games, and those 7 habits from that one popular topic. (My sig is a quote from that topic btw)

 

[Devl]

all the advanced techs should be in it, doesnt make sense to me to decrease the skill level needed to play the game it seems pretty decent the way it is now, i enjoy the challenge of learning new techs with characters and to take that away will kill alot of the flavor of the game i think...

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Personally, I'm all for just flat-out removing them all. But I know that just isn't going to happen. So I proposed (in a different topic) that, instead of removing them, simply make them easier to learn. In the time it would take me to master L-cancelling, Wavedashing, Teching, etc. I could become a master of my character and whip most people I play.

Thoght that, by decreasing the learning curve for these tricks from a couple months to only a week (or a month even) for the professionals, yet, at the same time, keeping them complex enough that random people who don't know them won't be able to do them, there would be a balence between those that want to learn them and those who don't care.

This way, people don't have to spend months learning all these tricks to be great. I'm not sure about most of you, but I would rather take my chances without them in a tournament thatn spending five months perfecting them. Do you know how much my fighting abilities with my character would increase in those five months instead of wasting them on two or three tricks? Melee is about skill with your fighter...not about who can minipulate the glitches in the game to their advantage.

Most players (even those who want to go pro [like me]) don't have either the attention span or willpower to force themselves to train using those moves for months at a time. They (like me) lose interest in the tricks and decide it's just not worth it to go pro. I am very good at Wavedashing (fortunatly, Luigi was my main BEFORE I learned he had the best WD) and I can L-cancel on a minor level. I gave up learning any others because I had to force myself to use the tricks in battle to practice with them and that went against my fighting style. My fighting style is based on whatever is needed at the time. If I need to jump, I jump. If I need to do the Missle, I do the Missle. Forcing myself to do the tricks made the game feel like I was working...and it took the fun away.

My proposition is the simplest solution that will please both parties.

Those that want the tricks to be easier to learn get their wish through the shorter learning curve.
And those that want the game to remain complex enough that profesionals and newbies are still seperated.

Reguardless of whether they make it or not, I will be maxing my character's fighting ability before I even consider learning the tricks.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

So you're saying they should be easier, but random people shouldn't be able to do them? What is this, a club? "Nah, you suck at tech, but we like you, so welcome!". They're not complicated, and they're really not that difficult. Knowing when to use them, or rather, doing it without thinking about it, is. How hard is it to learn to L cancel? "Press L right before you land" "Ok". Done. How hard is it to do it subconsciously? Your "proposition" makes absolutely no sense, as you don't really explain what it is. You just say, essentially, that it should be easy, but be a secret. Exactly the opposite of the more logical suggestion of it remaining difficult, but being included in a tutorial.

 

[Ferro De Lupe]

Ok, this is the best way I can think of explaining it...especially at 5:20 am. This is a post I made in a different topic of the EXACT SAME nature.

"Personally, I don't see what's so wrong about making the "advanced" (as I call them) tactic's results applied to the game without actually doing them.


I have never bothered to learn wavedashing, L-Cancelling, etc. (until recently) and I usually play as Luigi or Bowser. I play the game for fun and I learn as I go. I hit about 55-65% of my attacks and it is very difficult to knock me off of the stage. I have learned every possible way to work with Luigi/Bowser so that I know every possible (non-advanced) move. My Luigi skills are far superior to most people I have played against. Out of the very few people I have played, only ONE has proved to be better than me...and he didn't use the advanced things either.


HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION FOR EXAMPLE PURPOSES ONLY


Kyle can do every "advanced" tech in the book flawlessly. He plays as Marth and only knows about half of the possible ways to use Marth's moves to their full potential. As an overall fighter though, his skill could be compared to that of a seven-year-old child. He has been to three tournaments and never made it passed his second match-up.

Now, if Kyle and I were to fight (with me being new to the tournaments) and people could see that I clearly had mastered Luigi (by watching my warm up rounds) and they knew that I don't use the advanced tricks...everyone's money would still go on Kyle because "He knows how to L-cancel" or "He can tech."


Now, Kyle and I, somehow, both make it to the finals (pretend he got enough "bye" matches to make it that far.) If I win, everyone claims that it was a fluke bracket and I would have to win several more tournaments before people realize I am good. If Kyle wins, everyone says "Yea, I knew no one who doesn't tech/L-cancel/wavedash could possibly win, no matter how skilled he is."
[/situation]


I am SICK and TIRED of seeing these kinds of things. Everyone who enters a tournament should not have to rely on cheap parlor tricks to win. It should be a matter of skill and mastery of the character's fighting abilities and not a contest to see who can use bugs in the game faster and more often. This is why I am in full support of either removing them, or slightly altering the stats on all the characters so that things like L-cancelling would not be needed.

Hypothetical Example:
It takes you .8 seconds to get out of lag when you land without L-Cancelling.
It takes you .4 seconds to get out of lad when you land with L-cancelling.
If they were to alter the lag to be .4 instead of .8, then it is as if you ar automatically L-cancelling.
This would not completely remove it from the game, but would also make it so no one has to spend weeks/months learning how to do it.


Oh, and for those of you who claim "You don't want them because you can't do them", I got one word for you: WRONG! I can wavedash and L-cancel (not perfectly, but still fairly well)...and, honestly, I don't see what's so special about them. My fights actually get HARDER when I use them in combat."

Here's another one I made in the same topic;

"In all honesty, I'm fairly confident that the reason I can't really play with them is because by the time I ever even learned of their existance, I had already been playing Melee for a good solid year without them. And, as a result of that year, my playing style was pretty much already set. So, for me to try to learn these tricks (and later on apply them to combat)...it just throws me outta sink with my characters, and, as a result, it reduces my performence.

I guess that's why I dont see them in the same light as you... I agree that there does need to be a line between the newbies and the pros, but the line shouldn't be created because the pros can manipulate the graphics in their favor. It should be easily crossed for those who WANT to become professionals, but, at the same time, advanced enough that random newbies can't come in off of the street and win a tournaments.

In all honesty, I know that, if I were to enter a tournament, I'd get creamed. I might get lucky and make it passed the first one or two matches, but, once the real players start playing against me, I'm screwed. I won't lie, my play style is mainly focused around computer opponents, simply because, I rarely get to play other people. I'd say that I've played (maybe) 12-13 different people, and five of them are younger siblings (so I really don't count them.) With everyone else that I played, they either never played the game before or haven't played in so long that they were horrible (both of which result in me dominating them... ) and sending the wrong message to my mind that I am the best. There has only been one greatly skilled person that I've ever played. I'd say that we played, maybe, twenty matches against each other...and he only lost once, and I only got this one because he was tird and had a headache. I'm not ashamed to admit that he DESTROYED me in most matches. Now, here's the sad part... He hasn't played Smash in 1-2 years (Halo stole him), he doesn't own Smash, he doesn't even own a Cube. And I'm not mad that he beat me so badly, in fact, if I could, I would thank him for helping me, realize that I wasn't as near as good as I thought I was. I WILL fix that with Brawl. If the WiFi is good enough, I'll just practice online. If it's not good enough, well, then I should be glad we just moved to Tecumseh. I know for a fact that there is a group of people in Norman (at least I think it's Norman) who have Smashfests on a regular basis. I will find this group and I WILL start practicing with them...or at least once Brawl comes out I will. It's kinda pointless with Melee at this time.

I'm not going to lie to you when I say that I WILL try to learn these things a few months after Brawl is released (once they've all been found), just so I can shoot people down when they say I don't use them because I don't know them. Who knows, I might even like them enough that I will change my opinion about them"

 

[Ramon6767]

Okey, everyone. It seems that a few conclusions need to be established. First, as with anything fun, smash requires practice. Second, smash is fun even without its more technical aspects such as wavedashing and the like. Next, since most people playing the game eventually learned the technical skills, they added a new depth of fun to the game; people like myself continued to play smash. And lastly, there is always something new to do on smash because of the myriads of combinations of techniques and game types.

Because of these statements, it is logical, at least for myself, that as long as Brawl includes and expands upon these criteria technical skill should not matter much

I would still like to see an increasing number of new technical skills, and would imagine that Brawl will include those skills as a necessary administration to the mentioned criteria.

 

[RedSoxFan3]

I find it funny how people are still getting pissed off and saying that I want all technical skill to be removed from the game. That is not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the basic concepts of smash is pretty simple. You have wavedashing, l-cancelling, and various other moves and tech.

Someone earlier said that DI was a very complicated thing to learn. Well if you want to know the truth, it's only complicated in that you need to KNOW which direction to use DI, not pushing five buttons, in order to save yourself.

Another person didn't even consider wavedashing an advanced tech. Then if you will leave it in SSBB, why make it difficult to learn how to perform if it's not even an advanced tech?

Another person said the cool part about advanced techs is that people come up with them by simply using a string of easy techs. What is so beautiful about learning to do two fairs in a short hop with Marth? How is it necessary to make that so difficult to perform? Btw someone mentioned that people figured this out. I think someone figured out that looking at frame statistics in action replay, but I might be wrong.

If you really wanted to make Smash a game with more depth, then why not just give us more options of things that are simple and easy to do, but difficult to master, meaning when and how to apply them. DI is not easy to master, but anyone can do it. All you have to do is point your control stick in the correct direction. Even pros still mess up DI once in a while, but it's not a technical error. I think this type of depth in a game is better then a depth that is bounded by technical skill.

L-cancelling - I don't think it's necessary to make perfect l-cancelling require months to master. I have faith that Smash Brothers is a game far more in depth than a silly game of technical skill. I think it should be easier to l-cancel, meaning you have a greater amount of time to hit the l-button. I'm not saying it should be ridiculously easy, but at least easy enough so that if you are consciously trying to do it, you will do it most of the time even if you aren't too experienced with it. When I first attempted l-cancelling it was ridiculously hard. I could do it maybe 1 out of every 10 to 20 times. It should be as easy as teching is now or at least somewhere between teching now and l-cancelling now. I just don't see what's so great about smash that making l-cancelling is so difficult to do. Are afraid nubs are gonna come in and kick your ***? Please that isn't going to happen. There's still a huge amount of depth to the game that requires plenty of technical skill. Things you have mentioned before.

Spacing - Oh boy this one is probably my favorite. Yes this requires a minimal amount of technical skill, but it's mostly mind games. That's why it's so hard to do. Sure I guess you could say there's sweetspotting, but in order to sweetspot moves you need have proper spacing, which involves mind games. This is in my opinion a good depth to the game, because your opponent still dictates part of your success. With l-cancelling, your opponent has no control over whether or not you are going to l-cancel successfully, unless he/she is kicking you in the arm, mid-match, or is hitting pause to mess you up.

If it seems like a waste of time to you, then why are you here?

Because I enjoy the game despite the technical bs. There's no point in requiring that you must practice for hours a day outside of even playing against another person. Maybe online play will be the answer to this annoyance.

Combos - Most people say that Smash doesn't really have set combos. There are some that seem to work a good deal of the time, but sometimes people still pull off unorthodox combos, and if you are Unknown, you'll yell out "unorthodox combo" right in the middle of a match no matter who dun it. However, I do greatly frown upon even the possibility of infinite combos. There shouldn't be a single stand alone key to victory everytime you play.

No one has actually done this as of yet in SSBM, but you can drillshine people back and forth across Final Destination, I think you can do this on just about any tournament stage. Would you like it if suddenly a couple people at the pro level was able to do this infinite combo consistantly? It still exists in the game. Thankfully no one has mastered this yet.