Should Sheik and Zelda be Seperated?

[turtletank]

I'm aware that this topic has been touched upon in the past, and that there are strong arguments for and against the change. What I'd like to know is why you believe the change is necessary or not to for the characters, and if, hypothetically, the PMBR managed to implement an instant transform - would you still have the same stance?

An example of instant transformation
(Impractical, but you get the idea).

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If this happened, it would be cool if they got something nice, like smash4 stuff I dunno.

 

[Bazkip]

Nah, I think we need exactly the opposite. Change Link's down+B to transform into Wolf
Kappa

But seriously, to throw another possibilty into the mix, what if we had both? Separate them by default, but if you hold down R on the select screen (or some other method), you can switch. I don't know how many people actively use both, but there's bound to be a decent amount. Zhime does, for instance.

They'd have to include something to make the opponent aware of the choice, but I can't imagine that'd be too difficult.

 

[9bit]

I don't really care, but I lean towards separate them. I've heard really good arguments about there being absolutely no reason to switch mid-match (@Umbreon) and I think each of them having a new move would be cool.

 

[Sol0ke]

I'm personally in the vein of separating them, but there are some people out there that do use it, so it's really how the audience reacts to it.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Separation, bruh.

Having an extra special utility would be great, rather than having the option to switch to a different moveset. Not many people actually utilize that ability in game.

If the PMBR plans to separate them, I wish they would've done it sooner. It bothers me now that SM4SH separated them. Because even though I know he doesn't give a sh*t, whenever something is implemented in PM that has already been put in SM4SH, I can't help but picture Sakurai smugly reading through the PM patch notes and chuckling as he caresses his cat.

 

[Tryst]

I vote for Keeping them the same. For having another special it would be kinda weird considering they are already both really good characters and for @ Bazkip 's thought of having an option to chose, that would be incredibly hard and would probably have to use a character spot in the clone engine just to differentiate between the Down Specials and I don't think that'd be at all worth it. Also like @ Bazkip mentioned, there are some people who do use both in battle and I wouldn't want to have to make them have to rethink their strategy just to add a Down Special. I do like this thread and want to hear what everyone has to say though. :3

 

[Bazkip]

I vote for Keeping them the same. For having another special it would be kinda weird considering they are already both really good characters and for @ Bazkip 's thought of having an option to chose, that would be incredibly hard and would probably have to use a character spot in the clone engine just to differentiate between the Down Specials and I don't think that'd be at all worth it. Also like @ Bazkip mentioned, there are some people who do use both in battle and I wouldn't want to have to make them have to rethink their strategy just to add a Down Special. I do like this thread and want to hear what everyone has to say though. :3

We've already got moves changing properties with Samus' stance change, and also different properties being set at the beginning of the match by holding R to play as Giga Bowser or Sopo. The elements of my suggestion already exist in-game.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I vote for Keeping them the same. For having another special it would be kinda weird considering they are already both really good characters and for @ Bazkip 's thought of having an option to chose, that would be incredibly hard and would probably have to use a character spot in the clone engine just to differentiate between the Down Specials and I don't think that'd be at all worth it. Also like @ Bazkip mentioned, there are some people who do use both in battle and I wouldn't want to have to make them have to rethink their strategy just to add a Down Special. I do like this thread and want to hear what everyone has to say though. :3

It's all dependent on Character files. As Bazkip said, stance changes are possible.

But a Shiek/Zelda stance change would mean the access of two full move sets, which some people might think to be slightly broken.

 

[Bazkip]

It's all dependent on Character files. As Bazkip said, stance changes are possible.

But a Shiek/Zelda stance change would mean the access of two full move sets, which some people might think to be slightly broken.

That's why I said it should be selected by holding R like Giga Bowser or Sopo, you decide before the match begins and there's no switching mid-game.

 

[Tryst]

That's why I said it should be selected by holding R like Giga Bowser or Sopo, you decide before the match begins and there's no switching mid-game.

For Giga that is an entirely different set of files. For Sopo it is the exact same thing as ice climbers except it activates a code that gets rid of Nana or Popo for that slot. There is no moveset changes at all. So to actually change the moveset, like Giga, it would need an entirely different set of files.

EDIT: I didn't think about Samus. I guess that could be possible if you could do something like that.

 

[Bazkip]

For Giga that is an entirely different set of files. For Sopo it is the exact same thing as ice climbers except it activates a code that gets rid of Nana or Popo for that slot. There is no moveset changes at all. So to actually change the moveset, like Giga, it would need an entirely different set of files.

Does Samus' stance change use another slot?

 

[MonkUnit]

Samus' stance change doesn't use a character slot

 

[Mera Mera]

I personally think they should be separated purely on the principle that, if they aren't separated they should be balanced such that they are only viable if you transform depending on the match up. Which would be lame without an instant transformation, honestly (cause a mid match transformation is way more interesting). I'd be way more for them being together if there was an instant transformation (but one or both of them would need nerfing probs). That said, instant transforming would have to be possible even when four Sheik/Zeldas attempt to transform at the same time, which is probs unlikely.

The two major downsides to separating them now are:
- They would get more moves and they arguably don't need them (though I think Zelda with a new move would be fine... I think Sheik is still really good personally).
- People who switch mid match currently would get screwed... although transforming mid match is arguably a bad idea anyways.

The advantages:
- They would be easier to balance.
- We would get two no moves... I realize I put this as a con too, but hey, it'd be cool.

 

[Phaiyte]

oh hey, this thread again

 

[Bazkip]

Samus' stance change doesn't use a character slot

Alright, didn't think so. Does it follow that having the option to choose between the transformation or a unique down special for both would also not require another slot?

 

[Sour Supreme]

Alright, didn't think so. Does it follow that having the option to choose between the transformation or a unique down special for both would also not require another slot?

I'm pretty sure that all depends on how much room is left in Zelda and Shiek's files.

I could be wrong, but a stance change might have to be put in for both characters considering they're arranged seperate in the files..

 

[Burnsy]

Instant transforming is so unnecessary. Once you've knocked them away you have plenty of time to transform. Once you've disappeared completely you can buffer an action frame 1 of your reappearance, including spot-dodges, rolls, CC dsmash, whatever else the situation calls for if they try to mindlessly punish your transform. Insta transform would be so busted.

I dont think the two being attached causes a balance issue, and i

*edit*
(continued) feel it makes for a very unique character trait.

 

[Bazkip]

I dont think the two being attached causes a balance issue, and i

rip Burnsy
He never finished his post

 

[Spire]

Separating Sheik from Zelda allows the former to finally take on her deserved individuality. Sheik was a transformation of one incarnation of Zelda, of which there have been many. Brawl/PM's Zelda is based on Twilight Princess anyway, and while Sheik's design reflects that, Sheik is ultimately a call-back to Ocarina of Time only. Allow Sheik to carry herself; as Smash 4 proves, she no longer needs Zelda to exist. Sheik has become the quintessential Sheikah representative, which is an important piece of the Legend of Zelda mythology.

 

[Burnsy]

What about having Sheik and Zelda attached via 1 shared move doesn't allow Zelda to shine on her own? She plays very differently and the PMBR have adjusted her tools to make them viable. One of the coolest things about the Sheik-Zelda transformation is that you can choose to play as one or the other, both depending on match-up, or switch mid-match depending on your current strategy. All of these options have viability depending on playstyle and the matchup and no other character has a system like this. I really hope this topic isn't just now becoming hot because of this change being made in Smash 4.

 

[Phaiyte]

I wouldn't mind the seperation if Zelda gets a jump cancellable shine

 

[JRC LSS]

While it would be cool to give them new moves, I think giving Sheik another useful move might make her a little too good. Of course you could then nerf some of her other moves for balance, but then you'll piss off the tons of Sheik players out there. If the PMBR were developing characters from the ground up, they probably wouldn't have her transform (or have a chain either), but since Sheik's gameplay is already so well established, I don't see it changing.

 

[shairn]

Why is separating the pokémon coolbeans but not Sheik/Zelda?

 

[1FD]

tl;dr BOTH
MAKE SOPO/SOLONANA BETTER TOO IF SELECTED BY FANCY METHODS
IC's + IC and Shielda + Z/S is cool
DO IT
DO IT TO IT THROUGH IT MOO IT

 

[Spiffykins]

Just give them mediocre but situationally useful moves. Maybe something like Sheik's brawl divekick dair, everyone loves divekicks yo.

And for Zelda how about a giant invincible hitbox for her to spam when she's getting comboed or pressured. I feel like that's exactly what she needs to round out her moveset.

Oh and it should also reflect projectiles.

I'm a game design expert, trust me, this is a great idea.

 

[JOE!]

Why is separating the pokémon coolbeans but not Sheik/Zelda?

****ing -this-

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why is separating the pokémon coolbeans but not Sheik/Zelda?

****ing -this-

Because the pokemon had other design issues regarding their attachment to each other that sheik and Zelda don't, so it lent itself more to thinking about a rework when the problems already needed to be addressed in some way
Not to mention a 3 way transformation is actually a ridiculous step further than simply a back and forth transformation

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just give them mediocre but situationally useful moves. Maybe something like Sheik's brawl divekick dair, everyone loves divekicks yo.

And for Zelda how about a giant invincible hitbox for her to spam when she's getting comboed or pressured. I feel like that's exactly what she needs to round out her moveset.

Oh and it should also reflect projectiles.

I'm a game design expert, trust me, this is a great idea.

I thought Zelda johns went out of style a while ago.

 

[Spiffykins]

I thought Zelda johns went out of style a while ago.

I'm not johning, I genuinely think this is a good idea...don't you?

 

[NisforSmash]

I'd love to see them separated personally but i don't think it will happen. Especially now since people are actually using the transformation mid-match to their advantage and exploring what can be done.

 

[Mushguy]

I say they should compromise: Keep the Transformation for Zelda/Sheik, and make new Zelda representatives for the solo players. As I said in previous posts, Impa and Toon Zelda should come to mind.

Separating Sheik from Zelda allows the former to finally take on her deserved individuality. Sheik was a transformation of one incarnation of Zelda, of which there have been many. Brawl/PM's Zelda is based on Twilight Princess anyway, and while Sheik's design reflects that, Sheik is ultimately a call-back to Ocarina of Time only. Allow Sheik to carry herself; as Smash 4 proves, she no longer needs Zelda to exist. Sheik has become the quintessential Sheikah representative, which is an important piece of the Legend of Zelda mythology.

Dude, it's just a false identity, not a real entity. I'd rather still have her as part of Zelda as other games supported, both character-wise and gameplay-wise, or not have Sheik at all. That wouldn't be right.

 

[Spire]

I say they should compromise: Keep the Transformation for Zelda/Sheik, and make new Zelda representatives for the solo players. As I said in previous posts, Impa and Toon Zelda should come to mind.

Dude, it's just a false identity, not a real entity. I'd rather still have her as part of Zelda as other games supported, both character-wise and gameplay-wise, or not have Sheik at all. That wouldn't be right.

So... What are you going to do about that?

 

[Celestis]

I would support them being separated. But then again I am not a player of ether of them, so I don't know how attached the dedicated players are to the transformation. I do see Melee players use Zelda for recovery when playing Sheik. I mean if the pokemon can be, why not these two?

 

[Blitzus]

Nah, I think we need exactly the opposite. Change Link's down+B to transform into Wolf

I legitimately think not adding Wolf Link and Midna is a missed opportunity for sm4sh and must be done by PM one day.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Before Project M, I had a vision of Zelda as a situational tool for Sheik. Zelda, in her princess form, should naturally avoid fighting, right? Obviously we're not going down that road. The instant-transform is neat, but I imagine it would only feel useful if Zelda and Sheik synergized in some concrete way. With that said, designing one character around the other would be too cumbersome. I don't really have a preference one way or another on whether or not Zelda and Sheik are separated.

However, I do think something like instrant-transform would do wonders for Olimar's Pikmin order. So, Olimar would pluck Pikmin of one colour and change all of his Pikmin's colour by whistling.

This would be the order: Red > Yellow > Blue > Purple > White (just like in the games)

Whistling with down+b changes colours right by one on the cycle, whistling with down taunt changes colours right by two on the cycle, whistling with side taunt changes colours right by three on the cycle, and whistling with up taunt changes colours right by four on the cycle. So, Olimar would have no taunts, but keep in mind that playing as Olimar is pretty disrespectful to begin with.

Also, Olimar's whistle would do small (1% at really close distance) aoe damage. This way Olimar could attack with one Pikmin colour, extend a combo with a carefully placed whistle, and continue the combo with another coloured Pikmin.

 

[muleet]

Zelda/Sheik may be a good character by itself, but Zelda and Sheik would be both more interesting by receiving a new down B. The players that play Zelda/Sheik as a single character should consider that. (Sheik's new down B may be something related to her recovery for example.)

 

[JarBear]

My vote is separated like in Smash 4 ... especially since the PM team already "separated" Pokemon Trainer. Could be the same specials as the new Smash or something different.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Yessir

I miss MK's old Brawl SL
Sm4sh Sheik Bouncing Fish new shuttle loop

PM Sheik Down B Bouncing Fish, but if you miss it you go into helpless (unlike SSB Recover), and it has the same amount of landing lag as her Up B (30 I believe).

I would pay money for this to happen, no joke.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Grenades tho

Although I guess that might be stepping on Snake's territory