Should Palutena get special treatment since she has pre unlocked customs?

[T0MMY]

Mii Fighters

• Mii are not Custom Fighters, they are Mii Fighters - these are two separate options to toggle On/Off in Tourney Mode to make a point.
• When "Custom Fighters" option is set to "OFF" the Miii Fighters are still fully available without any of their moves restricted and only their custom parts will be disabled (i.e. Equipment).

Custom Fighters

• "Custom Fighters" is an alternative way of playing and includes Equipment as well as custom moves, all of which are Custom Parts to be unlocked with RNG farming in the fun minigames that come packaged along with the main game mode(s) to give a fuller experience to more casual gamers.
• Custom moves are not fully realized, only a few characters have their alt moves from their games, the rest of the casts' are just tweaked qualities instead so the game could ship in time.
• Not all characters even have any Custom Moves, probably due to time constraints creating the content. The argument to allow Palutena for any reason of "fairness" is obviously invalid.
• Custom moves + Equipment are more appropriate for Amiibo battles where you can sit back and watch the little toys have fun battling it out in a way to make each figurine more unique.

Palutena Argument

Palutena has her full custom moves available from the start not because the game designers believe she should be used in competitions with them available, but because they needed a kind of "demo" that showed how fun customs could be and motivate you to go grind for them in the minigames and on your 3DS when you see a fully "unlocked" character free of work - Palutena was chosen for the demo character (why her? Probably because Sakurai has a fondness for using his characters to promote game mechanics - he developed Kid Icarus: Uprising for the 3SD where Palutena plays a major role in the game's story and dialogue).​

TL;DR

Spoiler

For those of you tuning in late or completely oblivious to what competitive theory states: the above basically tells us:
Palutena is the demo for custom fighters to motivate you to unlock all those custom parts to be used for fun and with your Amiibos and was not chosen for any competitive reason despite frame data and character reveal trailer speculation.
Mii Fighters are separate fighter types than custom fighters, which you can use with Custom Fighters OFF; this is further demonstrated with Tourney Mode where Mii Fighters can be Toggled OFF separately from the Custom Fighter option.

 

[FairyLip]

stuff

Ehhhh, I'm not sure. She probably had at least a little bit more balance testing put into her than any of the other fighters, meaning you could consider her different.

 

[T0MMY]

Ehhhh, I'm not sure. She probably had at least a little bit more balance testing put into her than any of the other fighters, meaning you could consider her different.

There's much to interpret with the wide range of gray area of "different".
Different like we should understand that Sakurai put more work in her custom moves? Sure.
Different like we should start making exceptions in competitive rulesets to allow for her to use Custom Moves in a standard Custom Fighter: OFF tournament? I'd say definitely not.

The best thing about Palutena is that you don't have to work getting her customs unlocked for the rare times Custom Fighters is used, whereas most the characters will need some tedious work put in getting those unlocked - and some characters don't even have that option.

 

[Pyr]

If she was meant to be considered differently by the developers, she wouldn't be exactly like the other 4 dozen characters when it comes to using the things in question.

And, again, you don't know the intentions of the developers in this. You cannot speak for them and you can't base an argument around it.

 

[Illuminose]

An alarm goes off for me when people try to say that more balance/effort has gone into Palutena's customs when infinite Lightweight is still a thing despite having been known about forever. That kind of invalidates this type of thought process.

Customs off means customs off. The Miis have an argument because the game technically allows their moves to be used and even THEN we have the ability to choose whether or not we allow them this advantage. Palutena does not. When we play customs off, we set the custom fighters toggle to 'Customs Fighters Off'. Under this setting, the game does not allow Palutena to use her custom moves (like every other non-Mii character). That's it. There's no questions asked, no ifs, no design intentions whatever; that is a cornerstone of the 'customs off' ruleset.

 

[Sunswine]

If you're going to involve developer insight into the argument, that we are not even certain can be true since the Smash Team keeps their lips sealed when it comes to competitive aspects of the game and it's characters, then it's fair to say that in their perspective the Miis have no right to even participate in competitive play due to the fact they on not allowed online through For Glory and such, granted customs are not allowed either such using custom Palutena would be out of the question. If the development team saw Miis used in competitive play, they would of allowed them online or at least with the defaults. Point it you can make claims about the Smash Teams and their intentions with the Miis and Palutena, but its obvious that they spent a lot of time on Palutena's custom moves on how they change her as a character. Unfortunately the rest of the cast is left without moves thats are either impractical or flat out broken. Allowing customs for Miis doesnt even really help any of them despite the Brawler, but they all get their chance. I don't see a problem with allowing Custom Palutena into the mix if Miis the are allowed to. (Granted I can agree with how people may react about infinite lightweight so that can affect her overall standing). If for some chance she is allowed in to use her customs in the distant future, I'd be ecstatic. However, judging how we are all having this debate, it seems highly unlikely that the meta will allow her to have a chance in competitive play.

 

[Sunswine]

And I feel like this argument would have the same results if in was any another character in Palutena's place instead. If we had several characters that were in the same position as Palutena, I could see people leaning towards of those character's using their customs in customs off if the Miis are allowed. But since its just one character, I can see why some people deem it pointless to even bother with her.

 

[C0rvus]

Regardless of your position on Miis, if customs are off, Palutena cannot use customs. I don't know why that isn't the end of the argument. Sure, Palutena has all unique custom moves, but you cannot use them unless you turn on custom moves on the character select screen. I love Palutena, and it is sad to see her unable to use Lightweight and Super Speed, but it simply isn't fair to the rest of the cast to let her use her custom moves. Instead of trying to bend the rules for a single character, why not instead advocate customs being legal? It is more likely to happen and is a totally reasonable thing to support.

 

[Sodo]

Regardless of your position on Miis, if customs are off, Palutena cannot use customs. I don't know why that isn't the end of the argument. Sure, Palutena has all unique custom moves, but you cannot use them unless you turn on custom moves on the character select screen. I love Palutena, and it is sad to see her unable to use Lightweight and Super Speed, but it simply isn't fair to the rest of the cast to let her use her special moves. Instead of trying to bend the rules for a single character, why not instead advocate customs being legal? It is more likely to happen and is a totally reasonable thing to support.

You and I have the exact same stance. It's unfortunate but just make customs legal and there's no more argument. This has pretty much turned into a customs vs no customs thread anyway.

 

[JayWon]

Of course advocating customs as a whole means Palutena gets to use her customs but that can be on the many different thread. This thread is just for Palutena whether how "unfair" it is to whom or not.

For online tourneys. Customs Off with no doubt means custom doubt. I can see the hassle, the abuse of other characters sneaking in equipment, and just the lack of direct communication is screaming for trouble.

I think in a local environment, there is really no need to make Palutena's situation as problematic as some argue it to be. At the very least, I hope this thread provides some insight on some speculation and educates some people that Palutena's unique gimmick and design is the fact that her customs are more integral part of her design and in the end she's just in a very unfortunate spot with unfortunate defaults. I hope with these speculated discussions defending Palutena some people who are cool enough are totally okay to gentlemen at least her to access customs. In a local/tourney scene, you bet I will at least try to give a quick "hey I main Palutena and _____(quick summary of the nature of her and her customs), I just wanna throw it out there that I'm down gentlemening to turn on customs. Since it's on of course you can use customs if you want. I'm already asking too much so it'd be silly to expect only me to use customs. If you're not cool with it then good luck with my Pikachu."

Stop limiting yourself with absolutes. Unfairness is subjective so stop throwing that word around. You may feel it's unfair for only Palutena to use customs. I subjectively feel like it's unfair for Palutena and Mii's to not allow their customs regardless of all the subjective controversy surrounding the topic. I subjectively think it's stupid to be an absolute old man stubborn conservative all or nothing limiting asshole who thinks their logic is final and "fair" and I subjectively think it's no big deal for Ganondorf/Bowser and few other characters to allow their use of customs as well cuz I subjectively can see certain characters with customs bring what I believe something healthy and cool to the community. I subjectively think Rosalina/Pikachu/Villager/DK's customs suck balls. I subjectively hate how customs that suck are creating this huge obstacle that people don't want to overcome. I subjectively hate how logistics are annoying and it affects TOs. I can't help wanting to say "but palutena..." when people argue about logistics but I know for some it doesn't even matter regardless of their poor logic. And I don't disagree with those who actually do have solid logic on why they are anticustoms. Overall, I subjectively want to pick and choose and ban some customs; I will miss the healthy cool things customs have to offer but I won't miss the bull**** jank some customs have to offer. But I am too tired to argue at this point. I'm just telling you what I want and how I think it really is no big deal at least for Palutena/Mii's (I know they are somewhat in a similar situation but not really. When I compare Palutena to Mii's I don't want Mii advocators to hate me and think people like me are personally destroying their argument. Seriously, I'm not your enemy. I get it. Palutena doesn't fit the strict Customs On/Off argument). If I were TO or someone with better influence or something I would be like: "bruh. I don't give a crap. Ganondorf/Bowser/Mii/Palutena definitely are allowed to use customs" and I will confidently and actually legitimately believe my decision will bring something good and healthy for the meta. I am not as super confident with other characters customs as much as Ganondorf/Bowers/Mii/Palutena but you bet I will hear them out and have a pleasant conversation. And sorry, in my perfect world I will tell all Rosalina/Villager/Pika/DK absolutely not, I don't care if you think its unfair, I don't want people to deal with that jank. I hope some people in this community go see a doctor and get their stick up their butts removed. I hope my previous post at least provided some thoughtful insight and will help cool/chill people be okay with gentlemening if they want casually/locally/competitively.

Whatever. Screw ya'll for destroying her future.

 

[Dinoman96]

Whatever. Screw ya'll for destroying her future.

Don't blame the community. Blame Sakurai for haphazardly designing/balancing her around custom moves in the first place.

 

[JayWon]

Don't blame the community. Blame Sakurai for haphazardly designing/balancing her around custom moves in the first place.

Yeah. It's just unfortunate. The game ain't perfect and I have my own opinions on some questionable aspects of design/balance. But I respect this imperfect man. I love the game. I play For Fun with my 10 year old sister A LOT so I understand the hard choices he ultimately decided with strong defense or what not. There's really no one to blame. Just things to discuss. Wish Sakurai does an AMA and we can like talk to him about our thoughts and bargain or something cuz some things are quite fixable and wouldn't be asking for too much and totally worth tweaking for a pleasant experience for everyone.

 

[Tito Maas]

No, that's actually pretty silly. I'd be disappointed if this became a "thing" just because of that.

Palutena isn't the only character who is built with customs in mind. She's just the only one with customs unlocked. Are y'all saying that Sheik or ZSS would be bad if her customs were unlocked from the beginning instead of Palutena?

She's a character like everyone else. She shouldn't get the preferential treatment.

Besides, we didn't force Samurai to give her the worst combination of specials as her default.

In that case give R.O.B. 1131 because High Speed Burner is generally superior to Robo Burner and if we are going to make exceptions based on noncompetitive criteria then we might as well include R.O.B. too.

I'm all for this as long as Dark Pit can start 3111

 

[Dinoman96]

No, that's actually pretty silly. I'd be disappointed if this became a "thing" just because of that.

Palutena isn't the only character who is built with customs in mind. She's just the only one with customs unlocked. Are y'all saying that Sheik or ZSS would be bad if her customs were unlocked from the beginning instead of Palutena?

She's a character like everyone else. She shouldn't get the preferential treatment.

Besides, we didn't force Samurai to give her the worst combination of specials as her default.


I'm all for this as long as Dark Pit can start 3111

The thing is, custom moves, for the most part, are just fun extras for other characters that just happen to help them in the long run, like Ganondorf and such. Palutena and the Mii Fighters on the other hand are literally designed around them. There's a reason they rank much lower on default, customless tier lists.

 

[Tito Maas]

The thing is, custom moves, for the most part, are just fun extras for other characters that just happen to help them in the long run, like Ganondorf and such. Palutena and the Mii Fighters on the other hand are literally designed around them. There's a reason they rank much lower on default, customless tier lists.

The customs tier list is different from the standard tier list. Palutena isn't the only one who's higher with tiers than without. There are customs that suck, sure, but I think it's a bit presumptuous to say that Palutena is the only one built around customs just because she's the sample character.

If her design was built around Lightweight, then why isn't it a part of her default? They have all these combinations of moves for her, but the attack she's made for doesn't even make the standard set? Interesting design choice at best, but Mewtwo being the second lightest character in the game is also an interesting design choice.

There's a comparison to Shulk being made in here, but the Manado Arts aren't a custom move, so the idea of his character being built around that move is actually plausible.

She's just not a great character. Defaults are what the character is built around. Lightweight is no more supplementary than Dark Pit's Guiding Bow and Ness's PK Vacuum or DK's Kong Cyclone or Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash.

Besides, I didn't hear so much about Palutena at EVO, if anything at all. So part of the excitement about Customs On Palutena sounds to me like it's coming from the idea that she can use customs when other characters can't. Haven't seen a video of a customs Palutena at S@X or any customs event, for that matter, which is telling for a character who is supposedly built around customs like the Palutena mains in this thread are claiming. Funnily enough, I've seen many more custom Ganons than Palutenas.

 

[Dinoman96]

I always felt the reason they went with Palutena's default moveset was because, well, they basically wanted it to be generic as possible. (A counter, a reflector, a projectile, and a teleport = Smash Bros. The character basically) It was to emphasize the fact that she's a blank slate that the user has to customize to make her more interesting and viable. Why they didn't think about For Glory at all, I don't know.

 

[JayWon]

If her design was built around Lightweight, then why isn't it a part of her default? They have all these combinations of moves for her, but the attack she's made for doesn't even make the standard set?

Are you a Palutena main? It's confusing because your picture is Palutena but the things you've been saying clearly shows a very elementary knowledge on Palutena as a whole.

Idk man. Even from Palutena's first appearance from her trailer and then all the little Japanese articles of Palutena after always showcase her customs.

When Palutena is mentioned. So are her customs.

Compared to normal characters where they just show default moveset and final smash and apparently their smash attacks lmao:

All the Mii fighters info's focus on their customizability as well but only a single page:

So you undermining Palutena's customs as the same as Dark Pit's custom arrows and Pikachu's Heavy Skullbash is just silly.

Idk man. It's pretty freaking obvious Lightweight is the biggest influence in Palutena's normals.


You ask why Lightweight isn't part of her default.

I'm sure there are many factors. Somewhat arbitrary. but it probably looked to be the safest option.

Palutena's customs aren't an afterthought. Sakurai deciding what to set as default is however.

I am totally fine with people having problems with turning Customs On just for Palutena but I am not okay with people who discredit the intricacy of Palutena and her customs. She probably is the ideal vision of what Sakurai wishes all customs to be for every character. Not just slapping on janky windboxes that illogically defies physics and changing some few properties.

Palutena is the epitome of the very best display of what customs could have offered. Palutena/Mii Fighters are customs done right ideally. Sakurai had her customs available from the start. She and Mii Fighters were the primary advertising tools to hype up customs before the game launched.

Not saying this proves anything but don't ever compare Palutena's customs to Dark Pit's arrows.

 

[1FC0]

Palutena's customs aren't an afterthought. Sakurai deciding what to set as default is however.

Did you read his mind?

 

[Auramaniji]

An alarm goes off for me when people try to say that more balance/effort has gone into Palutena's customs when infinite Lightweight is still a thing despite having been known about forever. That kind of invalidates this type of thought process.

Customs off means customs off. The Miis have an argument because the game technically allows their moves to be used and even THEN we have the ability to choose whether or not we allow them this advantage. Palutena does not. When we play customs off, we set the custom fighters toggle to 'Customs Fighters Off'. Under this setting, the game does not allow Palutena to use her custom moves (like every other non-Mii character). That's it. There's no questions asked, no ifs, no design intentions whatever; that is a cornerstone of the 'customs off' ruleset.

For those who do not know what infinite lightweight is (although a handful of you may already know), I have linked a video and instructions on how to preform it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2lpanu/new_palutena_tech_unlimited_lightweight/
This was purely made to add a citation to the quoted post above.

 

[Auramaniji]

Alright, now for my two cents on this.
Palutena should not be able to use any of her customs unless customs are turned on. It's clear that the palutena mains are only asking for is lightfoot, but it is so broken that you can easily skip over the reloading period by just flicking down b. In addition to her reload she has the second highest jump right next to jump shulk, crazy mobility, and has LESS* damage. However having less damage doesn't cover for the outstanding things that she still has.

This is not a fair at all for a non-customs enivroment, and lightfoot is more like an advantage that nobody else can even reach in said enivroment.

*Fixed for being incorrect
(Excuse the double post)

 

[1FC0]

Palutena does not need customs because anything an angel can do a goddess can do better and both Pit and Dark Pit can do fine without customs in a no customs environment.

Besides if she is so obviously designed with customs in mind why then are customs turned off for her when they are off even though Mii Fighters who really are designed with customs in mind can still use them?
And if she was designed around Lightweight then why does she use Counter as default instead of Lightweight

 

[Tito Maas]

@ JayWon no, Palutena isn't my main. Dark Pit is my main.

That's cool that they showcased her customs and used her as a sample to demonstrate how customs can be used. But if her character was really designed around customs, then some of her customs would be her default and vice versa.

It's cool that she has her customs unlocked to start the game, but if they're designed for her to use when other characters aren't able to use them, why are they off when customs are off? Why are her pivotal customs not considered pivotal enough to be a default? And if her customs are made for her to play in standard, why should we make an amendment to the competitive enviromnent for that?

Ultimately, there's more to the question than "was Palutena created with customs in mind" which is debunked and countered by other arguments. You have questions like "does this give Palutena an unfair advantage?", "if we give Palutena special treatment, what other characters also need special treatment and why?", "does this Palutena clause compromise the competitive standard of standard play?" as well as "why do we care how a character is intended to be played if we have to change the competitive environment?"

To me, this is just a way to gain an advantage over the competition, even if it's in good conscience. Again, Palutena is rarely used in customs events (and if she was "designed around customs" like no one else is, wouldn't she be one of the best and most often-used customs characters?) and the only reason this is being brought up is because other characters wouldn't be able to use customs under this clause. It's unfortunate that Lightweight and all her other best customs aren't a part of Palutena's defaults, but it's unfortunate that Mewtwo is lighter than he was in Melee and it's unfortunate that Zelda is so bad that the Zelda boards can't even take up for her. At the end of the day, customs are there to mask weaknesses and enhance characters, and every character has customs that the mains of said character would prefer to be in the default set.

Even if Palutena was built around her customs, you know what else she was built around? Her defaults, just like everyone else.

 

[SaikyoBro]

I always felt the reason they went with Palutena's default moveset was because, well, they basically wanted it to be generic as possible. (A counter, a reflector, a projectile, and a teleport = Smash Bros. The character basically) It was to emphasize the fact that she's a blank slate that the user has to customize to make her more interesting and viable. Why they didn't think about For Glory at all, I don't know.

hows that job coming along lol

 

[Tito Maas]

Plus the fact that we can only name one custom that she's allegedly "designed for" doesn't really lend much to the argument that she's built around customs, just that she would be better with Lightweight, since it's that singular custom that is the inspiration for this thread to begin with (which we can tell, because not even one other custom of hers has been mentioned in two pages).

So in that vein, it's pretty much like DK and the Kong Cyclone. A singular custom that makes the character much better by itself.

Actually, us being only to name one custom that would particularly benefit her lends more to the argument of "why isn't Lightweight in her default set if it's so necessary"?

Lightweight, as well as the rest of her customs, are made to enhance. If they were deemed necessary for her character, they'd be selectable from the CSS menu with customs off or they'd be part of her defaults.

 

[Avokha]

IMO, we should never hold back on a characters intended if not PROMOTED use and by extension their potential future meta. The Goddess of Light's game-play is meant to emulate the powers system from Kid Icarus: Uprising, a game also headed by Mr. Sakurai, in which Pit could swap out various powers in a limited space (stated to be granted by Palutena in the games lore) to gain a tactical edge or fit a certain playstyle of the players choice. In smash, the powers of KI:U make an appearance as customs and you are limited to using only so many powers (namely 4), fitting the customization feature of powers seen in KI:U. To conclude, claiming that Palutena was NOT intended to function purely without customs would be incorrect. Her default moveset is almost purely defensive. I believe this serves as a sort of motivation for players to swap out "powers" to find a more suitable playstyle for their Palutena. Of course, there are surely players who are perfectly fine with the default set of powers, and with the moveset being based on the powers system, one could say that the default set could very well be considered custom set in and of itself.

 

[Pyr]

IMO, we should never hold back on a characters intended if not PROMOTED use and by extension their potential future meta. The Goddess of Light's game-play is meant to emulate the powers system from Kid Icarus: Uprising, a game also headed by Mr. Sakurai, in which Pit could swap out various powers in a limited space (stated to be granted by Palutena in the games lore) to gain a tactical edge or fit a certain playstyle of the players choice. In smash, the powers of KI:U make an appearance as customs and you are limited to using only so many powers (namely 4), fitting the customization feature of powers seen in KI:U. To conclude, claiming that Palutena was NOT intended to function purely without customs would be incorrect. Her default moveset is almost purely defensive. I believe this serves as a sort of motivation for players to swap out "powers" to find a more suitable playstyle for their Palutena. Of course, there are surely players who are perfectly fine with the default set of powers, and with the moveset being based on the powers system, one could say that the default set could very well be considered custom set in and of itself.

(bolded) Ya... People need to learn this is a stupid argument with no foundation at all.

Does this mean I can use 2 different Pokemon characters for each stock? Does this mean the Links get their sets because that's how their game worked? Can I switch from Luigi to Peach mid match because that's how SMB2 worked? Can I mash A and get a free stock as Mac?

Just because the source games did something DOES NOT mean it translated to Smash in full, if at all. Hell, if they did, Mewtwo wouldn't be lighter then Pikachu.

 

[Tito Maas]

IMO, we should never hold back on a characters intended if not PROMOTED use and by extension their potential future meta. The Goddess of Light's game-play is meant to emulate the powers system from Kid Icarus: Uprising, a game also headed by Mr. Sakurai, in which Pit could swap out various powers in a limited space (stated to be granted by Palutena in the games lore) to gain a tactical edge or fit a certain playstyle of the players choice. In smash, the powers of KI:U make an appearance as customs and you are limited to using only so many powers (namely 4), fitting the customization feature of powers seen in KI:U. To conclude, claiming that Palutena was NOT intended to function purely without customs would be incorrect. Her default moveset is almost purely defensive. I believe this serves as a sort of motivation for players to swap out "powers" to find a more suitable playstyle for their Palutena. Of course, there are surely players who are perfectly fine with the default set of powers, and with the moveset being based on the powers system, one could say that the default set could very well be considered custom set in and of itself.

Why would we promote "how she was intended to play" if, by your own admittance, she's supposed to have a "tactical edge". The whole point of competitive play is to remove as much non-player-generated "tactical edge" as possible, which is why we have stage bans, item bans, and customs bans in standard play.

It's fine that she has cool customs, but that's not a justifiable reason to give her customs in a setting where everyone else is banned from using customs. The reason she isn't allowed to have customs when everyone else can't, like Donkey Kong and Villager and Dr. Mario, is because it would give that player an unfair advantage as well as open a Pandora's Box which would probably lead to Customs only tournaments, among other thing.

The game in itself is INTENDED to be played with four players using Gamepads and Pro Controllers, Smash Balls on, Amiibos, and items on stages like The Great Cave Offensive and Temple and Hyrule Castle 64. So to speak on how Palutena was "intended" to play, the competitive community never took much how the game was "intended" into account, as opposed to the most healthy competitive direction for the game.

 

[Avokha]

By tactical edge, I was refering to a chapter by chapter basis and specific layouts for handling each chapter in KI:U lol. Obviously Smash does not work the same, so by "tactical edge" Im only speaking in terms of KI:U
Regardless, we will never truly know unless we try it out.

 

[Zorcey]

This entire thread is just laughable. How can one argue that in a Customs-off environment, a character should be allowed to use Customs? You defeat the entire purpose of the rule - to keep out Custom Moves.

 

[Avokha]

(bolded) Ya... People need to learn this is a stupid argument with no foundation at all.

Does this mean I can use 2 different Pokemon characters for each stock? Does this mean the Links get their sets because that's how their game worked? Can I switch from Luigi to Peach mid match because that's how SMB2 worked? Can I mash A and get a free stock as Mac?

Just because the source games did something DOES NOT mean it translated to Smash in full, if at all. Hell, if they did, Mewtwo wouldn't be lighter then Pikachu.

That's kinda how Pokemon Trainer worked back in Brawl lol

 

[blackghost]

The miis are the only character that can make this kind of argument. I'm honestly shocked this thread hasn't been closed by now. If palutena gets her moves everyone does. she wont be the one exception. the only exception could potentially by the miis.

 

[Terotrous]

Shulk and Palutena share horrible frame data, the worst of the entire cast actually. Why do you people think this is? Because both of them share the ability to become super fast mobile characters with their specials. Both characters were built keeping this in mind explaining the bad frame data.

This game was made taken custom moves into account but some people are too close minded too see it.

How do you explain Mewtwo's horrible frame data then?


Actually, there's a non-customs explanation for the bad frame data of all 3 characters.

- Shulk has crazy range and disjoints
- Palutena has a bunch of unusual properties on her attacks that make them better than they seem on paper
- Mewtwo hits like a truck while still having a projectile and a reflector.


Oh, it's also worth noting that most patches have been improving Palutena's frame data rather than touching her customs.

 

[1FC0]

R.O.B. was designed for High Speed Burner though since he kind of had it in SSBB.

 

[Dinoman96]

Oh, it's also worth noting that most patches have been improving Palutena's frame data rather than touching her customs.

Very little. Come back when all the lag is taken off all her smash attacks and tilts.

 

[J_the_Man]

I would like to recommend that instead of calling these tournaments "Custom Fighters: Off tournaments," we just call these tournaments "Smash 4 Wii U tournaments." All of this is just silly semantic nonsense. If we stop calling these tourneys "custom off" the argument falls flat on its head. It should cause no pain to anyone if instead of a clause in the "Game Settings" portion of the rule saying you must turn "customs off" in the word document, a clause allowing Palutena access to her custom moves is in its place. It is logistically not any more of a concern as allowing access to default Mii fighter customization.

Now that we have the semantically fueled argument out of the way, I will point out what everyone else has pointed out. Palutena's design and advertisement has heavily suggested that her character design is based around using custom moves to fit an individual's fighting style, just like Mii Fighters. She has access to 12 unique special moves right from the beginning of the game as opposed to 8 variations of a character's default custom moves that must be unlocked. This is enormously different and is very similar to Mii Fighters. Each of these moves are noticeably much more balanced and carefully thought out than regular custom moves, like Mii Fighters. If the game menu treated all other roster characters just like Mii Fighters with regards to custom moves, there would be no argument. Palutena would have a strong case to be allowed an exception.

In my opinion, there is no reason to allow semantics and game menu design choices to deny a character so obviously designed around customization to be allowed to compete at her highest competitive form.

One other thing. Given that the Lightweight infinite glitch can only occur through purposeful execution, couldn't we realistically ban it? It's not like it would ever happen on accident.

 

[LightLV]

Lemme ask a question.

Do you guys really think customs provide that massive of an advantage?

Because i feel like Shiek is stupid enough to make any advantage a character like Palu would gain from customs a bit irrelevant. I don't even see why we bother turning them off in the first place, unless it's a setup issue.


Oh, and Palutena is a much better character than most people give her credit for. Much, much better. I do not think she was designed around her specials at all.

 

[Tito Maas]

I would like to recommend that instead of calling these tournaments "Custom Fighters: Off tournaments," we just call these tournaments "Smash 4 Wii U tournaments." All of this is just silly semantic nonsense. If we stop calling these tourneys "custom off" the argument falls flat on its head. It should cause no pain to anyone if instead of a clause in the "Game Settings" portion of the rule saying you must turn "customs off" in the word document, a clause allowing Palutena access to her custom moves is in its place. It is logistically not any more of a concern as allowing access to default Mii fighter customization.

Now that we have the semantically fueled argument out of the way, I will point out what everyone else has pointed out. Palutena's design and advertisement has heavily suggested that her character design is based around using custom moves to fit an individual's fighting style, just like Mii Fighters. She has access to 12 unique special moves right from the beginning of the game as opposed to 8 variations of a character's default custom moves that must be unlocked. This is enormously different and is very similar to Mii Fighters. Each of these moves are noticeably much more balanced and carefully thought out than regular custom moves, like Mii Fighters. If the game menu treated all other roster characters just like Mii Fighters with regards to custom moves, there would be no argument. Palutena would have a strong case to be allowed an exception.

In my opinion, there is no reason to allow semantics and game menu design choices to deny a character so obviously designed around customization to be allowed to compete at her highest competitive form.

One other thing. Given that the Lightweight infinite glitch can only occur through purposeful execution, couldn't we realistically ban it? It's not like it would ever happen on accident.

But if you ban it then nobody would want to use her customs in standard formats anyway, just like no one uses her in events where every character can access their customs.

Lemme ask a question.

Do you guys really think customs provide that massive of an advantage?

Because i feel like Shiek is stupid enough to make any advantage a character like Palu would gain from customs a bit irrelevant. I don't even see why we bother turning them off in the first place, unless it's a setup issue.


Oh, and Palutena is a much better character than most people give her credit for. Much, much better. I do not think she was designed around her specials at all.

I would say yes it does, which is why customs are an issue to begin with. I'm not anti customs, but I can see how giving any character their best custom while disallowing use across the rest of the cast is an issue.

 

[Sunswine]

I would like to recommend that instead of calling these tournaments "Custom Fighters: Off tournaments," we just call these tournaments "Smash 4 Wii U tournaments." All of this is just silly semantic nonsense. If we stop calling these tourneys "custom off" the argument falls flat on its head. It should cause no pain to anyone if instead of a clause in the "Game Settings" portion of the rule saying you must turn "customs off" in the word document, a clause allowing Palutena access to her custom moves is in its place. It is logistically not any more of a concern as allowing access to default Mii fighter customization.

Now that we have the semantically fueled argument out of the way, I will point out what everyone else has pointed out. Palutena's design and advertisement has heavily suggested that her character design is based around using custom moves to fit an individual's fighting style, just like Mii Fighters. She has access to 12 unique special moves right from the beginning of the game as opposed to 8 variations of a character's default custom moves that must be unlocked. This is enormously different and is very similar to Mii Fighters. Each of these moves are noticeably much more balanced and carefully thought out than regular custom moves, like Mii Fighters. If the game menu treated all other roster characters just like Mii Fighters with regards to custom moves, there would be no argument. Palutena would have a strong case to be allowed an exception.

In my opinion, there is no reason to allow semantics and game menu design choices to deny a character so obviously designed around customization to be allowed to compete at her highest competitive form.

One other thing. Given that the Lightweight infinite glitch can only occur through purposeful execution, couldn't we realistically ban it? It's not like it would ever happen on accident.

This is so true, in practically every way. People who don't play Palutena assume the only move we want is lightweight, which is not true. Super Speed and Jump glide are great tools that work with her moveset more fluidly than her defaults. The only reaons why i can understand why people would be against her customs is the lightweight glitch which i do admit does break the character in some regards, but there are counters for that like stage choice but i wont go into detail since its self explanatory. Im sure the only reason they did not allow customs without customs on was for online play and so that people would not complain that its unfair that she starts off with all her customs AND would be the only character from a franchise who could use them while customs off. A lot of people would be butthurt and crying if that were the case cause their characters can't do that. Again, i say the "wall" in this whole arguement against her is just a prop to shun her for being different from the other fighters of the game and thinking its the easiest and least thoughout position to take to avoid the possibility and potential she has in the neta game.

 

[Pyr]

Im sure the only reason they did not allow customs without customs on was for online play and so that people would not complain that its unfair that she starts off with all her customs AND would be the only character from a franchise who could use them while customs off.

And I'm sure the only reason they don't allow her to use customs when others can't is because she's being treated like any of the other 40+ members of the cast. How she is treated is not only fair, but it is logical based on how the system works.

I'd address the rest of your post, but it hurts your own argument SO BAD that I really don't need to.

 

[CommanderRin]

Smash Bros and Sakurai don't revolve around the competitive scene, it's the other way around.

Sakurai's design choices are a lot more heavily targetted to players who wish to experience every little thing in Smash Bros. Which is, in my opinion, why Palutena is such a stereo-typical character with customs off. Sakurai intended people to pretty much make their own Palutena in a simlar fashion to Mii fighters. You can't depend on or insult a developer who is thinking about the majority of his audience. Palutena should not (atm) be allowed to use her custom moves. it doesn't have to do with what Sakurai intended because this scene is us and not him. Be happy that Sakurai is acknowledging our endeavours with balance patches at the least.

I love Palutena and all her custom options, but its better to continue the meta as a whole and make decisions as one community whether our logic is wrong or not.

My two cents... Yes I use Paluwaifu