Should Ness be nerfed?

[Lochy]

In fact, Ness can be gimped by almost everyone. Some characters are a bit slow for attacking Ness, but they can throw themselves against PKT2 and eat the damage for it or - if needed - tech the stage spike while Ness looses a significant amount of space.

Yeah forgot to mention that.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I'm maybe salty, but you have some huge Ness glasses on your eyes.

Of course it's not smash terminology, but it represents exactly what it is. It's a button. You press it, opponent dies. And this is because the grabkill doesn't depend on - much - reads, has almost no risk and sooner or later - you will get it.
IT'S NOT AVOIDABLE. Please people, GET IT.
A SMASH attack is AVOIDABLE because you can dodge it, roll out of it or parry it. But_not_a_grab.(yes I know you can dodge it)

Oh and I don't think that Luigi lives with 120% at the edge. You probably had no rage. But if you have around 80% everything with 80% or up is more likely dead.

People need to understand that percentage in Smash4 is different than in Brawl and especially Melee.

Yes I can easily run away, space him, make his time hard. But that doesn't fix the problem.

Maybe I do have "ness glasses" but ness' back throw was like this on brawl but he still wasn't good on brawl, I know ness' clear weaknesses so he isn't as good to me as he is to you. I don't think ness should changed at all, other characters should be put on his level. Also yes Luigi DID get back thrown at the edge of the stage and live, but no I had no rage and the throw was probably stale. If you get killed at the percents you died at from ness' back throw because of rage, then you deserved it and are stretching the fact that ness' back throw is too strong. Rage is what makes characters who are good at killing more balanced to the levels of characters who can combo and not kill. Rage punishes a player for not getting a kill and letting their opponent live at high percents.
I just went to training mode and tried it on battlefield omega on mario, at exactly 95% on the edge of the stage mario dies, I'm pretty sure but not positive that the characters in training mode have zero DI, and 120 from the center of the stage, with zero DI I'm sure but may be wrong. And in case you mention it, rage isn't in training mode. I may have "ness glasses" (you just like making up weird terms don't you) but you have some serious "ness is OP glasses"

 

[Lloyyd]

I never said he is OP, I'm just talking about the backthrow. My best friend mains Ness, and we play like 2-3 times per week online, and every Friday local.
I beat my friend very well with Luigi, ZSS and even Falcon. It's likely 50:50. He plays other chars as well. Never said that Ness himself is OP.

If I deserve something, because I miss to avoid it or anything has nothing to do with it.

Even all his other moves are strong as fu**. I laugh everytime when he kills my zss with 100% with upair. But I think all of it is not that hard to avoid, especially pkfire. But I'm okay with them all.
But what I just don't agree with is his backthrow. 10-15% later to kill would be fine at all. It would still be strong. But not ridiculously strong.

For example, Mewtwos upthrow also kills around 100%, but on the other hand, Mewtwo is clearly sh**. Sadly. I wish he would be better.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I never said he is OP, I'm just talking about the backthrow. My best friend mains Ness, and we play like 2-3 times per week online, and every Friday local.
I beat my friend very well with Luigi, ZSS and even Falcon. It's likely 50:50. He plays other chars as well. Never said that Ness himself is OP.

If I deserve something, because I miss to avoid it or anything has nothing to do with it.

Even all his other moves are strong as fu**. I laugh everytime when he kills my zss with 100% with upair. But I think all of it is not that hard to avoid, especially pkfire. But I'm okay with them all.
But what I just don't agree with is his backthrow. 10-15% later to kill would be fine at all. It would still be strong. But not ridiculously strong.

For example, Mewtwos upthrow also kills around 100%, but on the other hand, Mewtwo is clearly sh**. Sadly. I wish he would be better.

I am going to let you think what you want about ness' back throw because arguing is getting nowhere.
I do completly agree that mewtwo should be buffed, his weight is comparable to that of jigglypuff, he has no extremly good combos or strong attacks to back that up, shadow ball is extremly predictable, he is very large, is combo food and prone to juggles. The fact that his speed is modest makes all this worse. I think a paid character should at least be good. Now to keep this comment on topic, ness doesn't really need Nerfs other characters need buffs, his back throw is a bit debatable, but isn't as much as a problem as characters like mewtwo, samus, and Ganon not being as good as they should be.

 

[G-Guy]

i feel that he rewards players who are rather new to the game too much, so i wouldn't nerf him, but rather opt for a slight rework of PK fire's stunning capabilities.

If you were able to mash out of the flame pillar much easier, Ness'd be way less frustrating to fight. Heck, you could even go as far as having an aerial PK fire with the "original" stun while the grounded one won't trap as well.
Capable Ness players will surely land the diagonal PK Fire with ease, while the new players won't profit much from grounded PK fire spam.

Just my 2 cents on the topic

 

[Wintropy]

As somebody who routinely fights very good Ness players (and gets consistently bodied), I can safely say that, no, I don't think Ness should be nerfed.

I think people just need to understand the matchup in finer detail, especially at mid-level play.

 

[Noa.]

Ness deserves a nerf. A small one but he deserves a nerf. Probably to uair. I don't think bthrow needs to be touched. Maybe more end lag on grab If you wanted Ness players to be more thoughtful.

But Sheik, Zss. rosa, pika, And Fox deserve nerfs before him. I think all of top tier should be nerfed. Only a bit, but they are all slightly overtuned.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Ness deserves a nerf. A small one but he deserves a nerf. Probably to uair. I don't think bthrow needs to be touched. Maybe more end lag on grab If you wanted Ness players to be more thoughtful.

But Sheik, Zss. rosa, pika, And Fox deserve nerfs before him. I think all of top tier should be nerfed. Only a bit, but they are all slightly overtuned.

Question, why do you think characters should be nerfed instead of buffed?
In the PAL version of melee all the top tier characters are nerfed, but that doesn't create balance all it does is make the game slightly less interesting.

Would you rather watch or play the American release of melee where Marth can bring in the hype with a ken combo? Or would you rather watch or play the PAL release with nerfed Marth, and no satisfying, hyped spike set up?

Sure buffing all the worse characters while maintaining balance would be hard and time consuming, but it would make a better game. All nerfing characters does is water down gameplay.

 

[Noa.]

Question, why do you think characters should be nerfed instead of buffed?
In the PAL version of melee all the top tier characters are nerfed, but that doesn't create balance all it does is make the game slightly less interesting.

Would you rather watch or play the American release of melee where Marth can bring in the hype with a ken combo? Or would you rather watch or play the PAL release with nerfed Marth, and no satisfying, hyped spike set up?

Sure buffing all the worse characters while maintaining balance would be hard and time consuming, but it would make a better game. All nerfing characters does is water down gameplay.

As you've stated already it's a lot easier to tone down about 10 chaatcters so that they're in line with 40 characters, then to buff 40 chaatcters to the level of high and top tier.

The top tiers are just overtuned and kind of stupid in a couple ways. Most of them only need small nerfs really to stop being ridiculous.

Sheik's needles, fair, bouncing fish, and vanish are all pretty silly.

Zss's upB could use more landing lag so it's more punishable if it misses. And her down b spike is quite powerful.

Rosa just needs the base knockback on Luma reduced so that she can't still at stupidly early percents.

Mostly smaller nerfs like that that tone down the abudive aspects of characters, and also some more lag on things so that there are windows of opportunity to punish a character for whiffing moves.

The rest of the characters should also receive small buffs. A couple extra percent on moves, maybe remove some frames of ending lag and landing lag. Those kinds of changes would help them.

I think should also increase the hitbox sizes for some moves. Some characters have to be pretty precise to land their moves.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

As you've stated already it's a lot easier to tone down about 10 chaatcters so that they're in line with 40 characters, then to buff 40 chaatcters to the level of high and top tier.

The top tiers are just overtuned and kind of stupid in a couple ways. Most of them only need small nerfs really to stop being ridiculous.

Sheik's needles, fair, bouncing fish, and vanish are all pretty silly.

Zss's upB could use more landing lag so it's more punishable if it misses. And her down b spike is quite powerful.

Rosa just needs the base knockback on Luma reduced so that she can't still at stupidly early percents.

Mostly smaller nerfs like that that tone down the abudive aspects of characters, and also some more lag on things so that there are windows of opportunity to punish a character for whiffing moves.

The rest of the characters should also receive small buffs. A couple extra percent on moves, maybe remove some frames of ending lag and landing lag. Those kinds of changes would help them.

I think should also increase the hitbox sizes for some moves. Some characters have to be pretty precise to land their moves.

Maybe a couple of small Nerfs would be NESSicary(dumb pun made) but I would rather see more buffs to worse characters because I think it would make the game more interesting. But that's just my opinion

 

[Furret24]

Outside of B-throw (which is on par with Hoo Hah and Luigi's D-throw -> D-Special) having slightly less Kbg to where it can't kill before 90% and maybe giving Pk Fire slightly more end lag so it's possible to punish a whiffed one, Ness is perfectly fine as is.

 

[Noa.]

Ness's bthrow only kills below 90 either right at the edge or with a ton of rage. And only on the lightest characters. It very rarely kills below 100 tbh.

 

[Teshie U]

very easy to punish whiffed pkf as well

 

[Furret24]

Ness's bthrow only kills below 90 either right at the edge or with a ton of rage. And only on the lightest characters. It very rarely kills below 100 tbh.

100% is still absurd for throw, especially when he has multiple other good kill options and a fairly easy set-up into it.

It isn't that easy to punish a whiffed Pk Fire. It's ending lag and short range generally make it rather difficult to punish unless you're Sheik, Kirby, or Rosaluma in certain situations.

If you spotdodge and it goes past you, Ness can easily grab you. If you're out of range for a grab, the pillar will catch you and Ness can do whatever. If you're out of range for either, you only get about 30 frames to punish, which generally too little for most characters.

 

[Noa.]

100% is still absurd for throw, especially when he has multiple other good kill options and a fairly easy set-up into it.

It isn't that easy to punish a whiffed Pk Fire. It's ending lag and short range generally make it rather difficult to punish unless you're Sheik, Kirby, or Rosaluma in certain situations.

If you spotdodge and it goes past you, Ness can easily grab you. If you're out of range for a grab, the pillar will catch you and Ness can do whatever. If you're out of range for either, you only get about 30 frames to punish, which generally too little for most characters.

Pk Fire in neutral is bad. Just jump over it ot shield it. 30 frames is like an eternity. If you can't punish Pk Fire then your reaction time must be awful and you must have no tech skill. It doesn't even require a read. You can avoid it and punish it on reaction.

 

[Splebel]

Pk Fire in neutral is bad. Just jump over it ot shield it. 30 frames is like an eternity. If you can't punish Pk Fire then your reaction time must be awful and you must have no tech skill. It doesn't even require a read. You can avoid it and punish it on reaction.

You're assuming that we are jumping over it before Ness starts the move, our air speed is good, we have a fast fastfall, our character has good range/speed on their moves, and/or he used it at pretty much point-blank range. Because whenever I punish Ness can just shield by the time my attack connects and then Grab Out of Shield.

 

[Noa.]

You're assuming that we are jumping over it before Ness starts the move, our air speed is good, we have a fast fastfall, our character has good range/speed on their moves, and/or he used it at pretty much point-blank range. Because whenever I punish Ness can just shield by the time my attack connects and then Grab Out of Shield.

I play Ness. He has a slow air speed, is really floaty, and has a slow dash speed. When I play against Ness I can still jump over the fire on reaction and punish it.

It's is laaaaaaaggyyy.

Please get better. I mean point blank that's all I can say. If you can't punish Pk Fire in neutral you play too slowly and react too slowly.

 

[Splebel]

I play Ness. He has a slow air speed, is really floaty, and has a slow dash speed. When I play against Ness I can still jump over the fire on reaction and punish it.

It's is laaaaaaaggyyy.

Please get better. I mean point blank that's all I can say. If you can't punish Pk Fire in neutral you play too slowly and react too slowly.

Ness has the whole range on his moves thing going for him that I noticed you decided to not bring up. I also said nothing about dash speed so I don't know why you brought that up. Also Ness can reflect and absorb (I believe) the PK fire. Also I didn't say it was not punishable at point-blank I was talking about how hard it is to punish when they use it at a farther distance towards the end of the range. Plus PK Fire is laggier than some other moves but it's not what I would call laggy. You make it like you could throw out that move and the opponent can go make a sandwich eat it, take a nap and come back and you would only be halfway done. Pac-man's Smash attacks are laggier than that move. (Although not by much)

 

[Noa.]

Ness has the whole range on his moves thing going for him that I noticed you decided to not bring up. I also said nothing about dash speed so I don't know why you brought that up. Also Ness can reflect and absorb (I believe) the PK fire. Also I didn't say it was not punishable at point-blank I was talking about how hard it is to punish when they use it at a farther distance towards the end of the range. Plus PK Fire is laggier than some other moves but it's not what I would call laggy. You make it like you could throw out that move and the opponent can go make a sandwich eat it, take a nap and come back and you would only be halfway done. Pac-man's Smash attacks are laggier than that move. (Although not by much)

PK Fire lasts a total of 59 frames. Most players have a reaction time to about 13 frames but lets say you only have a 15 frame reaction time. That leaves you with 44 frames to jump over it or shield and then do whatever you want.

44 frames is a long ass time.

And dash speed matters for characters that are trying to go for shield and then punish.

When I punish PK Fire on reaction I don't go for a move, I just jump over it and grab them. Ness's grab is quite tiny. So yeah I'm not using any large hitboxes.

All I can say is git gud.

 

[Splebel]

PK Fire lasts a total of 59 frames. Most players have a reaction time to about 13 frames but lets say you only have a 15 frame reaction time. That leaves you with 44 frames to jump over it or shield and then do whatever you want.

44 frames is a long *** time.

And dash speed matters for characters that are trying to go for shield and then punish.

When I punish PK Fire on reaction I don't go for a move, I just jump over it and grab them. Ness's grab is quite tiny. So yeah I'm not using any large hitboxes.

All I can say is git gud.

That's also assuming while jumping the hit from PK fire doesn't hit you. Also I don't know where you are getting these frame data numbers from. I keep looking but all I find are the ones for his Melee iteration.

 

[Lochy]

That's also assuming while jumping the hit from PK fire doesn't hit you. Also I don't know where you are getting these frame data numbers from. I keep looking but all I find are the ones for his Melee iteration.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-combined-frame-data『wii-u-1-0-2』『3ds-1-0-4』.404840/

 

[Noa.]

That's also assuming while jumping the hit from PK fire doesn't hit you. Also I don't know where you are getting these frame data numbers from. I keep looking but all I find are the ones for his Melee iteration.

PK Fire is extremely low to the ground. It's so low that Rosa can dodge PK Fire with the little hop she does from her usmash.

 

[Splebel]

PK Fire is extremely low to the ground. It's so low that Rosa can dodge PK Fire with the little hop she does from her usmash.

I guess. I've been thinking the whole time about punishing upon seeing it and not when Ness starts yelling "PK Fire" so I don't know when the PK fire comes out, the frame data didn't say unless "hits: 21" was it. But that gives you less time to react. Although what I did see on my little quest for frame data was a landing lag canceled aerial PK fire which invalidates a few of these scenarios but I'm not going to get into that because I didn't find this out till I looked it up and it would be petty of me to start arguing about that version.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ness-combined-frame-data『wii-u-1-0-2』『3ds-1-0-4』.404840/

Thanks for the link.

 

[Noa.]

I guess. I've been thinking the whole time about punishing upon seeing it and not when Ness starts yelling "PK Fire" so I don't know when the PK fire comes out, the frame data didn't say unless "hits: 21" was it. But that gives you less time to react. Although what I did see on my little quest for frame data was a landing lag canceled aerial PK fire which invalidates a few of these scenarios but I'm not going to get into that because I didn't find this out till I looked it up and it would be petty of me to start arguing about that version.



Thanks for the link.

The hitbox for PK Fire comes out on frame 21 but that is point blank. You were talking about longer range or max range PK Fires. I don't know how long they take exactly, but pk fire travels a bit slowly. You have plenty of time to react to it. As soon as you see him bring his arms back just run towards him and jump.

Aerial pk fire does not have as much range since it's going diagonal and not parallel.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

PK Fire is extremely low to the ground. It's so low that Rosa can dodge PK Fire with the little hop she does from her usmash.

So can mario, Luigi, fox, falco, and plenty of other characters

 

[Splebel]

The hitbox for PK Fire comes out on frame 21 but that is point blank. You were talking about longer range or max range PK Fires. I don't know how long they take exactly, but pk fire travels a bit slowly. You have plenty of time to react to it. As soon as you see him bring his arms back just run towards him and jump.

Aerial pk fire does not have as much range since it's going diagonal and not parallel.

Yes but you wouldn't be able to meet him in the air because the diagonal would run into yours I believe. But also my point stands at shielding a PK fire at midrange would maybe be about 25 frames into the attack. If not perfect shielded that is at least another 7 frames for dropping the shield; so 32 frames. Worse case is 39 if the attacks reaches your shield on Frame 4. (Frame 11 is when you can drop the shield) This also isn't factoring shieldstun, if any. Although it would probably be at most a few frames so I would use 2. Frame 34-41 is when you can start the act of punishing Ness. Although it gets fuzzy after that because I don't know how much characters move per frame. These numbers also assume you drop the shield right when it hits the shield.

 

[Asa]

hm...........

You can run under aerial pkf and hit him in the end lag

 

[Splebel]

hm...........

You can run under aerial pkf and hit him in the end lag

Yeah if he does it where you are but not if he does it so you would run into it. Plus I saw this guide where you could cancel PK fire's landing lag at a certain height so it doesn't seem like a good idea.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah if he does it where you are but not if he does it so you would run into it. Plus I saw this guide where you could cancel PK fire at a certain height so it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Honestly,

You just have to play more and get better. Like straight up. Pk Fire is laggy as hell. It takes forever to come out and has a huge amount of endlag. The lightning bolt itself has a small hitbox.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Yeah if he does it where you are but not if he does it so you would run into it. Plus I saw this guide where you could cancel PK fire's landing lag at a certain height so it doesn't seem like a good idea.

Then he's reading you and would have gotten you regardless.

Everything Noa said is true. Pk fire has a lot of lag and is easily punished. Ive been fsmashed by Robins who would just short hop it. ROBINS

 

[Number Three]

So, people still think Ness's back throw deserves to be nerfed, but Sheik can keep her stupid frame data and Rosalina can keep her Up Air/Luma knockback? This is why I have a small bit of dislike for the patches. As useful as they are for drastically strengthening my non-top tier mains (Shulk was literally buffed up to mid tier in 1.0.4, Palutena's been easing her way out of bottom tier since 1.0.8, and Mewtwo will hopefully be properly buffed into a viable character by these patches one day), they bring in the option of nerfing more powerful characters. Now, since that option is available, when an aspect of a character is discovered to be good, people suddenly think that it deserves to be nerfed because they don't play that character or loose to someone else playing that character. This outcry has let to characters getting nerfed that didn't deserve it like Little Mac, Diddy THE SECOND TIME (he completely deserved that first nerf, though), and, most infamously, Greninja (as the internet never fails to let us forget). In my opinion, no characters in this game deserve to be slapped with the nerf hammer. The only nerfs I deem necessary is to MAYBE slightly tone down Sheik and Rosalina to Pikachu's level (since I think Pika is the third best in the game). Every other top tier, in my opinion, is perfectly balanced because, while they are strong, they have obvious weaknesses (ex. Luigi's crap mobility, Zamus's inability to do anything without a grab, Ness's awful recovery etc.). Instead, Nintendo should focus on using these patches to give the mid through bottom tier characters the Meta Knight/Ike treatment. Then, every character is good and everyone is happy. This probably won't happen (because, even if it does, people will still find something else to moan about), but it's worth hoping for.

On a side note, I love imagining what all of these "nerf everything" people (as I like to call them) would do if they were placed back in the time of any of the other games' releases. You know, back in the days when, if a character was found that was OP, broken, or whatever you want to call it (like Fox in Melee and Meta Knight in Brawl), then they became the most used and there was no way to remove everything so strong about them.

 

[Splebel]

So, people still think Ness's back throw deserves to be nerfed, but Sheik can keep her stupid frame data and Rosalina can keep her Up Air/Luma knockback? This is why I have a small bit of dislike for the patches. As useful as they are for drastically strengthening my non-top tier mains (Shulk was literally buffed up to mid tier in 1.0.4, Palutena's been easing her way out of bottom tier since 1.0.8, and Mewtwo will hopefully be properly buffed into a viable character by these patches one day), they bring in the option of nerfing more powerful characters. Now, since that option is available, when an aspect of a character is discovered to be good, people suddenly think that it deserves to be nerfed because they don't play that character or loose to someone else playing that character. This outcry has let to characters getting nerfed that didn't deserve it like Little Mac, Diddy THE SECOND TIME (he completely deserved that first nerf, though), and, most infamously, Greninja (as the internet never fails to let us forget). In my opinion, no characters in this game deserve to be slapped with the nerf hammer. The only nerfs I deem necessary is to MAYBE slightly tone down Sheik and Rosalina to Pikachu's level (since I think Pika is the third best in the game). Every other top tier, in my opinion, is perfectly balanced because, while they are strong, they have obvious weaknesses (ex. Luigi's crap mobility, Zamus's inability to do anything without a grab, Ness's awful recovery etc.). Instead, Nintendo should focus on using these patches to give the mid through bottom tier characters the Meta Knight/Ike treatment. Then, every character is good and everyone is happy. This probably won't happen (because, even if it does, people will still find something else to moan about), but it's worth hoping for.

On a side note, I love imagining what all of these "nerf everything" people (as I like to call them) would do if they were placed back in the time of any of the other games' releases. You know, back in the days when, if a character was found that was OP, broken, or whatever you want to call it (like Fox in Melee and Meta Knight in Brawl), then they became the most used and there was no way to remove everything so strong about them.

Well I was old enough at the time and I personally didn't like it. It's not fun looking at 5 characters fight in a game with at least 5 times the amount of characters. Plus buffing everyone up to Pikachu would change the pacing too much.

 

[Number Three]

Well I was old enough at the time and I personally didn't like it. It's not fun looking at 5 characters fight in a game with at least 5 times the amount of characters. Plus buffing everyone up to Pikachu would change the pacing too much.

I never said buff anyone to Pikachu's level. I said MAYBE nerf Rosalina and Sheik to Pika's level tier wise. I said give the lower characters a Meta Knight/Ike-like buff.

 

[Splebel]

Oh OK. I misunderstood

 

[Tubruh]

Or you can play any character and literally jump behind Ness while he's attempting to recover and eat the bolt. It'll even send you upward so you can probably make it back when you get hit.

Mario can literally FLUDD Ness/Lucas into their own bolt and make them shoot themselves backwards or even downwards, if they don't make them miss all together. I hope someone isn't having a problem gimping Ness's recovery as Mario, the unofficial King of Gimp.

You can also take the PKT2 offstage to reduce his recovery. Risky, but rewarding.

 

[Asa]

fludd doesn't happen nearly as much as people think it does, same with pocketing his pkt or caping or whatever.

 

[Tubruh]

Dang, I never noticed how Ness's neutral game isn't that great. It kinda sucks how you can just steal his recovery.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

fludd doesn't happen nearly as much as people think it does, same with pocketing his pkt or caping or whatever.

The most I've ever had happen was a Greninja pushed me with Hydro Pump upwards. But I could still hit myself and made it back.

 

[Asa]

yeah his neutral is average at best