Should Ness be nerfed?

[Splebel]

Reverse hit boxes are a thing a ton of side smashes have, so I don't really see it as a ness thing, also I somewhat question using a projectile to punish a side smash, maybe if you were mewtwo so you could reflect back a shadow ball. Other then that I just don't see a projectile as an optimal punish, but I could be missing something.

The situation it happens in is a Ness fsmashes my hydrant after I drop it (I play Pacman) and then I drop behind him while he's doing it and punish with a Key as I do with all characters that like to focus on my hydrant. Lucas' fsmash does this as well.

 

[L9999]

The situation it happens in is a Ness fsmashes my hydrant after I drop it (I play Pacman) and then I drop behind him while he's doing it and punish with a Key as I do with all characters that like to focus on my hydrant. Lucas' fsmash does this as well.

Don't throw anything at it. Just grab Ness or punish him with dash attack or anything. Bat is slow as **** and anything can punish it. For Lucas, don't even bother trying. The stick is almost unpunishable unless you shield right at his face, which is never a good idea.

 

[Splebel]

Don't throw anything at it. Just grab Ness or punish him with dash attack or anything. Bat is slow as **** and anything can punish it. For Lucas, don't even bother trying. The stick is almost unpunishable unless you shield right at his face, which is never a good idea.

Yeah Lucas' seems faster. Grabbing with Pac isn't usually a good Idea/worth it so I usually don't think of it. Plus a whiff means I get the pleasure of a trip across the stage via Ness's Backthrow.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

The situation it happens in is a Ness fsmashes my hydrant after I drop it (I play Pacman) and then I drop behind him while he's doing it and punish with a Key as I do with all characters that like to focus on my hydrant. Lucas' fsmash does this as well.

Yea punishing a laggy side smash with a fire hydrant or key does make sense, but in the case where you are fighting ness it is inconvenient that his reflects projectiles. I would think that a ness player at high enough percent to get killed by key or hydrant but dealing with people making choices that shouldn't work is something all smashers that want to play serously have to overcome. In fact it is one of my biggest weaknesses as a smash player. You would think knowing how to fight people who play at high level is all you need to know to play smash bros at a high level. It always sucks to encounter someone who does crazy stuff that they "shouldn't do".

 

[Splebel]

I would be more OK with it reflecting behind it if it did every time and not randomly. Because if the reasoning was "Don't do it cause it will get reflected" 9 times out of 10 roughly it does punish Ness and that 1 time it reflects back in my face.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I would be more OK with it reflecting behind it if it did every time and not randomly. Because if the reasoning was "Don't do it cause it will get reflected" 9 times out of 10 roughly it does punish Ness and that 1 time it reflects back in my face.

Smash bros has a bit of randomness to it luigi's green missile, peachs turnips, game and watches judgement. But ness' side smash can be annoying considering it wasn't intended to be random, I see this as a minor annoyance like counters, you're about the land the attack that will get you the match winning kill then you get countered. In a game where 1/3 of the characters have one of their special moves as the situational nuisance we know as a counter I don't see the small. Chance of a reflecting reverse hitbox being removed. I feel the same way about counters as you do about the reverse reflect hitbox, but nobody seems to agree with me that they should be removed, if stupid counters stay in the game I don't see why a stupid hitbox can't either.

 

[Splebel]

Smash bros has a bit of randomness to it luigi's green missile, peachs turnips, game and watches judgement. But ness' side smash can be annoying considering it wasn't intended to be random, I see this as a minor annoyance like counters, you're about the land the attack that will get you the match winning kill then you get countered. In a game where 1/3 of the characters have one of their special moves as the situational nuisance we know as a counter I don't see the small. Chance of a reflecting reverse hitbox being removed. I feel the same way about counters as you do about the reverse reflect hitbox, but nobody seems to agree with me that they should be removed, if stupid counters stay in the game I don't see why a stupid hitbox can't either.

Yeah it probably won't get removed however, counters are reads so if you read their read it should be fine. When counters are active longer than you think they should it's where the trouble starts. Plus Shulk's unblockable one and you can counter water hits that do no damage and the counter still does damage.

 

[Lloyyd]

Ness is good but not ban worthy, his back throw is his signature kill move.

Back throw is not a killmove. It's a kill button. Now tell me how hard it is to approach your opponent and go for the grab until you get it.
In times like Smash4 where you can easily can have 150% or more, a throw that kills at 70% and upwards shouldn't be in the game.
Brawl and Melee were different in that.

 

[Splebel]

Back throw is not a killmove. It's a kill button. Now tell me how hard it is to approach your opponent and go for the grab until you get it.
In times like Smash4 where you can easily can have 150% or more, a throw that kills at 70% and upwards shouldn't be in the game.
Brawl and Melee were different in that.

Seems a little extreme on the numbers but yeah I get it. If you are above 80 most Ness players I play like to throw out grab every chance they get knowing if they grab you there's a good chance for a KO. Especially because Ness's grab range seems pretty good. Spacing him out is what you need to do but that gets harder because Sakurai decided that Ness needed to have a reflector and an absorber for some reason.

 

[Lloyyd]

My friend just killed me(Falcon) with 77% with a backthrow. He had rage of course. But anyway, 77% is something that isn't acceptable..

 

[EnhaloTricks]

My friend just killed me(Falcon) with 77% with a backthrow. He had rage of course. But anyway, 77% is something that isn't acceptable..

I've seen Roy kill with an f smash at 25%. 77% is fine.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Back throw is not a killmove. It's a kill button. Now tell me how hard it is to approach your opponent and go for the grab until you get it.
In times like Smash4 where you can easily can have 150% or more, a throw that kills at 70% and upwards shouldn't be in the game.
Brawl and Melee were different in that.

If you know ness is going for a grab then you should know to avoid it, Ness' back throw kills at around 85% IF you are dumb enough to go to the side of the stage when ness is there waiting for a grab. If you get killed at 70% by ness' back throw, learn to DI. Having 140+% on smash 4 means you avoided your opponent's strong attacks and have good DI. Ness actually has below average grab range, if you know it's coming avoid it. Ganon kills before 70% but is considered bad because he is predictable. Ness' back throw is more predictable then ganons kill moves because that is his fastest kill move by far but it the only kill move that you should worry about until 110+% so it should be even more predictable then any of ganons kill moves because Ganon can atleast mix up his kill moves. Ness also is trash in neutral, and has a very gimp able recovery. Considering how laggy ness' reflector is it shouldn't be considered unless you are on the other side of the stage using a charged projectile. Psi magnet has enough startup that to absorb a projectile ness needs to make a read.
Marth's tipped side smash kills at 75%! Please nerf Marth
Dr.Mario's sweetspot side smash kills at 75%! Please nerf dr. Mario.
Luigi's fire jump punch kills at 60%! Please nerf Luigi.
Zelda's forward air kills at 68%! Please nerf zelda.
Ike's counter can kill at any percent! Please nerf Ike!
Yoshi's down air does over 30%! Please nerf yoshi.
Shulk has a huge window of time for his counter to activate and can kill at just about any percent! Please nerf shulk!
Bowser's side smash kills at 60%! Please nerf bowser!
Ness' back throw kills at 70%! Please nerf ness!

That is what you sound like. There are going to be early kill moves in smash bros they are part of the game. Just because ness got one of the most useful early kill moves in the game doesn't mean he needs a nerf. I have seen peach kill mewtwo at 30% with an up b, it was freaking crazy. Ness does have one of the most useful early kill moves but on a character who lacks speed, a good recovery, and zoning ability I think he needs a safe kill move. Quoting Xzsmmc here,
" if appearently shiek and space peach don't need to be nerfed then neither does ness."

 

[Duplighost]

I'm definitely more concerned with buffs, but I feel like a slight nerf is a good idea here. Okay, before anything, I am not hating on Ness's backthrow. I just feel that it's too quick of a kill move sometime. Even if we DI correctly, we can still die at the 90% range... which, in my opinion, isn't really a fair kill. It takes most characters to kill at the 90%+ range, so I'm not implying that Ness kills too early, but it is too easy to use at any time and is much too reliable. Grabs are too easy to throw out, and come out very quickly.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I'm definitely more concerned with buffs, but I feel like a slight nerf is a good idea here. Okay, before anything, I am not hating on Ness's backthrow. I just feel that it's too quick of a kill move sometime. Even if we DI correctly, we can still die at the 90% range... which, in my opinion, isn't really a fair kill. It takes most characters to kill at the 90%+ range, so I'm not implying that Ness kills too early, but it is too easy to use at any time and is much too reliable. Grabs are too easy to throw out, and come out very quickly.[/quote

I agree mostly but ness' back throw only reliably kills at 90% if ness gets a grab at the edge of the stage. But I do agree with buffs to other characters being more important, and you WILL die at 90% at ness' back throw even with DI, but that is entirely reliant on where ness gets the grab. Even with the easiest kill move in the game, ness is balanced. Nerfs should be avoided in smash 4. The PAL version of melee nerfed characters like fox, falco and Marth, and instead of achiving balance it made the gam slightly less intersesting.

 

[Duplighost]

Marth's tipped side smash kills at 75%! Please nerf Marth
Dr.Mario's sweetspot side smash kills at 75%! Please nerf dr. Mario.
Luigi's fire jump punch kills at 60%! Please nerf Luigi.
Zelda's forward air kills at 68%! Please nerf zelda.
Ike's counter can kill at any percent! Please nerf Ike!
Yoshi's down air does over 30%! Please nerf yoshi.
Shulk has a huge window of time for his counter to activate and can kill at just about any percent! Please nerf shulk!
Bowser's side smash kills at 60%! Please nerf bowser!
Ness' back throw kills at 70%! Please nerf ness!

That is what you sound like.

I didn't see him complaining about any other characters, actually.

Marth's tipped side-smash is very difficult to pull off, and experienced players will know not to stand at the distance in which they'd be killed by it.

Saying "Please nerf Dr. Mario" is just plain absurd.

Luigi's "fire jump punch?"

Zelda has absolutely no other accessible kill moves other than her smashes (which aren't amazing) and her f-air and b-air. Ness is much more agile and has a great air game when used properly.

Ike's counter can kill at any percent? Maybe players shouldn't go completely charging smash attacks so often and setting themselves up for a counter...

Yoshi's d-air does do a lot of damage. But it has lots of end lag and he cannot follow up with other moves (after any attack, really).

Shulk can also kill at any percent? Well, can't any character? And a huge time window? I guess people just need to learn to time their attacks well and not go throwing out moves without thinking.

Bowser kills at 60%... oh boy, better not let him fully charge his f-smash and sit at the edge of the stage! Besides, Bowser is predictable and ground-oriented.

Not trying to start a fight here. (:
But, really... none of these characters justify what Ness needs to be nerfed on whatsoever...

 

[Splebel]

I've had Zelda's Up B kill me at 40% somehow. Red Bars and everything and I was still on the stage

But to bring it back on topic Ness's Neutral is lacking, Can be gimped easily and PK fire is entirely avoidable; although I don't see it as very laggy because I can never seem to punish Ness after avoiding it. So Ness shouldn't be fought at the ledge at higher damage. If people didn't camp the ledge so much his throw wouldn't seem broken.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I didn't see him complaining about any other characters, actually.

Marth's tipped side-smash is very difficult to pull off, and experienced players will know not to stand at the distance in which they'd be killed by it.

Saying "Please nerf Dr. Mario" is just plain absurd.

Luigi's "fire jump punch?"

Zelda has absolutely no other accessible kill moves other than her smashes (which aren't amazing) and her f-air and b-air. Ness is much more agile and has a great air game when used properly.

Ike's counter can kill at any percent? Maybe players shouldn't go completely charging smash attacks so often and setting themselves up for a counter...

Yoshi's d-air does to a lot of damage. But it has lots of end lag and he cannot follow up with other moves (after any attack, really).

Shulk can also kill at any percent? Well, can't any character? And a huge time window? I guess people just need to learn to time their attacks well and not go throwing out moves without thinking.

Bowser kills at 60%... oh boy, better not let him fully charge his f-smash and sit at the edge of the stage! Besides, Bowser is predictable and ground-oriented.

Not trying to start a fight here. (:
But, really... none of these characters justify what Ness needs to be nerfed on whatsoever...

You missed the point, I was saying that Lloyyd and Splebel sounded like that complaining about ness killing early with a back throw. Complaining about things that you think should be nerfed will get you nowhere and chances are nobody will agree with you, I would know. Also fire jump punch is the official name given by Nintendo to luigi's sweetspot up b, it is also known as shoryuken, or super jump punch. Again ness has a below average grab range and a below average dash speed and a short dash grab, plus you should know what's coming if you are fighting ness. Again if shiek and space peach appearently don't need Nerfs then neither does ness.

 

[Splebel]

You missed the point, I was saying that Lloyyd and Splebel sounded like that complaining about ness killing early with a back throw. Complaining about things that you think should be nerfed will get you nowhere and chances are nobody will agree with you, I would know. Also fire jump punch is the official name given by Nintendo to luigi's sweetspot up b, it is also known as shoryuken, or super jump punch. Again ness has a below average grab range and a below average dash speed and a short dash grab, plus you should know what's coming if you are fighting ness. Again if shiek and space peach appearently don't need Nerfs then neither does ness.

I only complain if he catches me near the edge but in actuality I know it's my fault.

Although I've had Ness grab Pacman through his hydrant so I don't know about this "terrible grab range" of his.

 

[Lloyyd]

If you know ness is going for a grab then you should know to avoid it, Ness' back throw kills at around 85% IF you are dumb enough to go to the side of the stage when ness is there waiting for a grab. If you get killed at 70% by ness' back throw, learn to DI. Having 140+% on smash 4 means you avoided your opponent's strong attacks and have good DI. Ness actually has below average grab range, if you know it's coming avoid it. Ganon kills before 70% but is considered bad because he is predictable. Ness' back throw is more predictable then ganons kill moves because that is his fastest kill move by far but it the only kill move that you should worry about until 110+% so it should be even more predictable then any of ganons kill moves because Ganon can atleast mix up his kill moves. Ness also is trash in neutral, and has a very gimp able recovery. Considering how laggy ness' reflector is it shouldn't be considered unless you are on the other side of the stage using a charged projectile. Psi magnet has enough startup that to absorb a projectile ness needs to make a read.

Haha, wow. You think it is an argument to say try to avoid the grab? If the player wants the grab, he'll get it - sooner or later. And if you play a char like Falcon or another melee char, you have to be near the opponent, so what should I do? Time the opponent out?
Your arguments are crazy invalid.

Oh and all your examples are _real_ moves that have to be timed and can only be done with good reads, especially Marths smash attacks.. please try something else, then this has nothing to do with a BUTTON that KILLS. Do you understand?

Luigis Fire jump as an argument, I can't stop laughing.

And please stop saying learn to DI, if you think that is the problem you really should stop wearing those Ness glasses on your eyes.

I say it once again kill move != kill button. Learn the difference.

Ness has more than ENOUGH, almost every aerial is strong AF. His upair is crazy strong. Don't need to talk about his smash attacks. Oh and I don't need to mention his pkthunder which moves the opponent directly above Ness. I'm fairly okay with that all, but a grab?
Not really.

I even don't understand how all you Ness player like it that way. Do you think it's a good kill when you beat someone with that? Do you feel like - strong or proud?
When I play, I want to beat the opponent in a worthy way, a way that makes me DESERVE the kill. A grab doesn't do that, and a grab that's as strong as this one is not really a deserved kill.

 

[Lloyyd]

I've seen Roy kill with an f smash at 25%. 77% is fine.

Yeah compare a really strong and extreme risky attack that is highly punishable with a simple button that you push together with a directional input that has almost no risk. Much sense.

 

[abx]

I even don't understand how all you Ness player like it that way. Do you think it's a good kill when you beat someone with that? Do you feel like - strong or proud?
When I play, I want to beat the opponent in a worthy way, a way that makes me DESERVE the kill. A grab doesn't do that, and a grab that's as strong as this one is not really a deserved kill.

People don't know about it, but I only use Ness' grabs when I am blindfolded.

 

[Duplighost]

I even don't understand how all you Ness player like it that way. Do you think it's a good kill when you beat someone with that? Do you feel like - strong or proud?
When I play, I want to beat the opponent in a worthy way, a way that makes me DESERVE the kill. A grab doesn't do that, and a grab that's as strong as this one is not really a deserved kill.

As much as I agree with your points, any player should play to win, no matter what the kill move is. Sadly we just have to accept that, which makes Ness a pain to battle at times. However, every character has a way to defeat another opponent. Ness just happens to have the most easy and reliable one.

 

[PK Gaming]

Certainly not before any of the other top tiers.

When they get addressed then we can talk about changing Ness, but as of now? He's fine.

 

[MacSmitty]

I even don't understand how all you Ness player like it that way. Do you think it's a good kill when you beat someone with that? Do you feel like - strong or proud?
When I play, I want to beat the opponent in a worthy way, a way that makes me DESERVE the kill. A grab doesn't do that, and a grab that's as strong as this one is not really a deserved kill.

You're saying it as if the grab is really cheap or something. You play ZSS, a neutral special should easily stop a grab happy Ness.
And for the record, it doesn't matter whether a kill is "Deserved" in your eyes. If you give people an opportunity to kill you easily, they are gonna take it.

 

[Lloyyd]

Yes, the grab is cheap. No, a grab is not avoidable if you play on the same level as your opponent, at any level, beginner or professional (Maybe you should try to tell that everybody that faced Sheik on any tournament? ). And yes, it does matter. This game lives because of styles and combos.
Show me an GF match with Ness who kills everytime with the backthrow and we can talk about reaction of the crowd.

 

[Asa]

How is any kill move not a button lol

Space yourself to not get grabbed, or position yourself so that you don't die earlier than you have to from bthrow

Ness will frequently get bthrow kills because shielding is one of the best options in the game , and people shield a lot at high percents

 

[Lloyyd]

If you don't understand the differents between a killbutton and a killmove then it explains why you - again - think that "not get grabbed" is an argument. Please read the thread.

wth

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

If you don't understand the differents between a killbutton and a killmove then it explains why you - again - think that "not get grabbed" is an argument. Please read the thread.

wth

so what ness can get a kill off of a grab, so can Luigi.
There is no "kill button" which is why I think you sound so dumb saying it. "Kill button" isn't even real smash terminology, it's just something you made up because you are salty about ness having an easy kill move, it was like that in brawl too. Btw I'm pretty sure, not positive, that it already was nerfed as I grabbed my opponents Luigi on the edge of the stage and it failed to kill him at 120%, of course DI contributed to it but ness' back throw isn't as broken as you think, other wise ness would be widely known as S tier. If you ever see a tier list with ness at #1 please send a link to me.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Well, only his Back-Throw. The rest of his moves is actually pretty balanced around, to be honest.

 

[Duplighost]

This argument is getting pretty repetitive. I think Ness's b-throw is just something we have to accept, and not complain about. As much as I agree that it does kill a bit too early at times, it isn't likely that an update will change this. After rethinking this entire thing, I have come to realize just how many threads there are that plead for a character to be nerfed. I think we should just play the game and get over it. In no way am I advocating the idea that Ness's b-throw is fair. In my opinion, it is not an original or interesting way to win. However, droning on and on about it will not change anything in the end.

Instead of arguing why it is unfair, why don't we change the discussion to how we can avoid it and counter it?

Just a suggestion... because I honestly don't know how to avoid it.

 

[Splebel]

This argument is getting pretty repetitive. I think Ness's b-throw is just something we have to accept, and not complain about. As much as I agree that it does kill a bit too early at times, it isn't likely that an update will change this. After rethinking this entire thing, I have come to realize just how many threads there are that plead for a character to be nerfed. I think we should just play the game and get over it. In no way am I advocating the idea that Ness's b-throw is fair. In my opinion, it is not an original or interesting way to win. However, droning on and on about it will not change anything in the end.
Instead of arguing why it is unfair, why don't we change the discussion to how we can avoid it and counter it?

Just a suggestion... because I honestly don't know how to avoid it.

That seems like it should belong in a different thread or it's own thread. Not on a "Should Ness be nerfed" Thread.

 

[Asa]

Not hard to avoid a grab by ness

 

[Masked Bro]

Do I think Ness needs a nerf? No. I think he's quite balanced as is and that people don't know how to handle him yet, quite simply. He's got a poor recovery (it's not hard to gimp him lol), and can be zoned out easily (not the best movement speeds really). IMO b-throw is simply a plus to what he brings, it's not a "kill button" because a Ness still has to work to raise damage before they can actually kill you with it. And assuming the opponent has faced a Ness before, it's not easy to get a convenient grab on the ledge in the right direction at 110%. Yes, it's scary, but that's just how Ness works. If he whiffs the grab, you get to punish him for it.

You should know when he's fishing for grabs, so when you get to the danger percent focus more on keeping him out.
As for how I usually go about avoiding Ness's grab, that usually depends on the character. Some probably have an easier time getting around it than others. If you're Captain Falcon for example, I'd expect you to be using his mobility to your advantage in avoiding them. If you're Lonk, use projectiles and keep a bomb on you to shut that down. Don't use easily punishable moves, maybe try and learn our pattern so you can just dodge a grab attempt on a shield or something. Just don't sit there like a duck asking to be grabbed, really. Learn to space yourself properly to avoid it, or figure out if your character has any moves that can help force some distance. Simply put, play safe.

 

[Lloyyd]

so what ness can get a kill off of a grab, so can Luigi.
There is no "kill button" which is why I think you sound so dumb saying it. "Kill button" isn't even real smash terminology, it's just something you made up because you are salty about ness having an easy kill move, it was like that in brawl too. Btw I'm pretty sure, not positive, that it already was nerfed as I grabbed my opponents Luigi on the edge of the stage and it failed to kill him at 120%, of course DI contributed to it but ness' back throw isn't as broken as you think, other wise ness would be widely known as S tier. If you ever see a tier list with ness at #1 please send a link to me.

I'm maybe salty, but you have some huge Ness glasses on your eyes.

Of course it's not smash terminology, but it represents exactly what it is. It's a button. You press it, opponent dies. And this is because the grabkill doesn't depend on - much - reads, has almost no risk and sooner or later - you will get it.
IT'S NOT AVOIDABLE. Please people, GET IT.
A SMASH attack is AVOIDABLE because you can dodge it, roll out of it or parry it. But_not_a_grab.(yes I know you can dodge it)

Oh and I don't think that Luigi lives with 120% at the edge. You probably had no rage. But if you have around 80% everything with 80% or up is more likely dead.

People need to understand that percentage in Smash4 is different than in Brawl and especially Melee.

Yes I can easily run away, space him, make his time hard. But that doesn't fix the problem.

 

[Teshie U]

Grabs still require reads to land. You could also say that landing a kill move doesn't require precision sometimes if you just keep throwing it out; it'll land sooner or later. Replace shielding with active hitboxes (no grab armor) to avoid getting grabbed. Spacing and being aware of the opponent's options does actually fix the problem, especially against a character who does not have broken frame data.

Like Asa said, kill throws are inherently better in this game because shielding is a mechanic that is abused to its fullest, and grabs are the out to it. When playing against a character with a kill throw, one needs to adapt and change how they avoid the character's kill moves. For ness, you would be spacing yourself for his aerials(little range) since this will keep out hitboxes to prevent ness from easily landing a grab.

 

[Lloyyd]

A grab does not require as much reads as an actual move.

Everything else of your post is just "avoid a grab" with a little more text. Please stop that. Everybody knows to how avoid a grab. Thats. Not. The. Problem.

 

[Lochy]

I don't see why Ness would need nerfs. His PK fire and smash attacks have considerable lag to them.
His recovery can easily be gimped by characters like Rosaluma and Villager.
(Or anyone who makes the thunder ball disappear.)
His neutral game isn't that good.

He doesn't beat the top tiers and has obvious weaknesses. So why nerf him?

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Just a suggestion... because I honestly don't know how to avoid it.

Try to read his grab; since there is no Grab Armor in this game, he will be attacked anyway. To dodge, a well-timed Side-step might be enough.

Edit: Just a note to my post: Back-Throw can be nerfed, but not that much. If it kills around 130% it might be enough. It is very powerful, but it isn't jank. Despite wishing it, I voted to the "No" option.

 

[Asa]

A grab does not require as much reads as an actual move.

Everything else of your post is just "avoid a grab" with a little more text. Please stop that.Everybody knows to how avoid a grab. Thats. Not. The. Problem.

Catching a landing or a roll with a grab require the same amount of thought as an Usmash , an ftilt, or an upb. You can input smashes with one stick too btw lol

Everybody knows to how avoid a grab. Thats. Not. The. Problem.

It is though. If you're positioning yourself properly, you won't be finding yourself dying extremely early to it. If you're reading his grab attempts and/or spacing his grab, you won't find yourself getting grabbed as much.

 

[abx]

I don't see why Ness would need nerfs. His PK fire and smash attacks have considerable lag to them.
His recovery can easily be gimped by characters like Rosaluma and Villager.
(Or anyone who makes the thunder ball disappear.)
His neutral game isn't that good.

He doesn't beat the top tiers and has obvious weaknesses. So why nerf him?

In fact, Ness can be gimped by almost everyone. Some characters are a bit slow for attacking Ness, but they can throw themselves against PKT2 and eat the damage for it or - if needed - tech the stage spike while Ness looses a significant amount of space.