Should Ness be nerfed?

[Tubruh]

People have been wanting Ness to be nerfed, like with his backthrow or PK Fire. So I made this poll. (sorry if I screwed up, if its not showing) In my opinion, no, not really. He's amazing, but his recovery is bleh.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

Ness is good but not ban worthy, his back throw is his signature kill move. Ness isn't fast and doesn't have great grab range so his back throw doesn't need a nerf.
If anyone thinks pk fire needs a nerf they should probably be ignored and told to git gud. Pk fire has so much end lag it is a high risk high gain but is easily punished and some characters like falco can jab while in pk fire and stop ness from getting a grab. It also has bad range. The only reason people complain about is because they suck and keep getting hit by pk fire. And killed by his back throw.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

I really wonder how many of the people who are surprised by Ness' old moves are really just new to Smash.
Ness has always had strong finishers and the best throw in the game, in exchange for being extremely unwieldy and easily edge-guarded.

 

[abx]

If SSB4 needs anything concerning the balance, it needs more buffs for others.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

And Rosalina's gravitational pull needs to only work on objects with mass, as in, non-energy entities.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Yes.

Just nerf him to such an extreme that he'a like low tier. That way people won't overate him as much

 

[MysticKnives]

Yes.

Just nerf him to such an extreme that he'a like low tier. That way people won't overate him as much

Don't know if you're serious or not but if you are: People don't overrate Ness, due to the mechanics and nature of the game, he really is top 10. All the people that complain about him only do so now because he's actually considered high tier. Ness has many of the same weaknesses that were present since 64. If you weren't serious, disregard what I said.

 

[Shamrock7r]

Ness is a character with very clear strengths, and very clear weaknesses. His strengths can be taken advantage of easily, and his weaknesses can easily be a detriment to his game. I put him in the tier class of near perfect balance. Characters below him should get up to his level. Characters above him should be nerfed to his level.

Ness, Captain Falcon, Mario and oddly enough DIddy Kong now, are the characters that I would say are closest to being perfectly balanced. Yoshi is almost there. Luigi will be when they fix his dthrow to downb crap.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Ness is good but not ban worthy, his back throw is his signature kill move. Ness isn't fast and doesn't have great grab range so his back throw doesn't need a nerf.
If anyone thinks pk fire needs a nerf they should probably be ignored and told to git gud. Pk fire has so much end lag it is a high risk high gain but is easily punished and some characters like falco can jab while in pk fire and stop ness from getting a grab. It also has bad range. The only reason people complain about is because they suck and keep getting hit by pk fire. And killed by his back throw.

What he said. If Sheik and Space Peach apparently don't need nerfs, Ness doesn't either.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Don't know if you're serious or not but if you are: People don't overrate Ness, due to the mechanics and nature of the game, he really is top 10. All the people that complain about him only do so now because he's actually considered high tier. Ness has many of the same weaknesses that were present since 64. If you weren't serious, disregard what I said.

Ya I was joking. Although he really is overrated, 11th makes more sense than the 6th most people place him at.

 

[Aav]

We need to replace nerf complaining with buffs so everyone's happy.

 

[L9999]

Ness doesn't need nerfing. Nobody needs a nerf, except maybe reducing Gravitational Pull's range. Seriously, that thing is broken. With ZERO effort you can gimp Ness and nullify DHD/any camp/space with projectiles. And the items pulled are from a hundred miles away and the animation/actual active frames are really misleading. But this is the Ness board, not the Rosalina board.

 

[MysticKnives]

Ya I was joking. Although he really is overrated, 11th makes more sense than the 6th most people place him at.

Understandable. To be fair, we still don't even have an official tier list, and with patches, we won't get one for some time.

 

[VentusNeos]

We should go the Brawl Minus route. Buff everyone till they're broken, and thus balance is reached

No but real talk, Should ness be nerfed? No. not at all. He could use some buff to be honest. (I feel like a lot of players feel their characters can be buffed, because they know the weaknesses of their character in and out). But considering the fact that Sakurai and his team balance the game for both crowds of players, with casual players mainly coming first, he does still have the chance to get nerfed. Maybe not as hard as Diddy's nerfs, but maybe a nerf on PK fire and some other moves that can be spammed in lower level play.

 

[PKEarthbound]

It's kinda funny seeing how everyone who voted to "Yes, nerf him" hasn't said anything explaining why they should nerf him, but yet we're still here giving reasons why they shouldn't regardless lol

But in all seriousness, Ness doesn't need to get nerfed or buffed, he's pretty balanced for a character, just like how every character should be.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I think the idea of balancing competitively vs for casuals is a bit weird. If you balance competitively it would make the game more fun for the casual crowd as well seeing as how every character would stand a more or less equal chance and not get "tiered out" by a friend who uses Sheik when you like d3, despite both being casual players.

OT: I don't think ness needs a buff. He's got pretty good match ups across the board, good combos and a ton of kill moves. A nerf? Mmm maybe. Pk fire I guess could be easier to get out of, but it's already pretty hard to hit and easy to punish on a whiff. I think hes one of the most balanced characters in the game, honestly.

 

[Number Three]

I really wonder how many of the people who are surprised by Ness' old moves are really just new to Smash.
Ness has always had strong finishers and the best throw in the game, in exchange for being extremely unwieldy and easily edge-guarded.

I think it's more that they didn't care in the previous games. None of Ness's positive traits were a problem pre-Smash 4 because he was low tier. Now that he's considered one of the best characters in the game, people suddenly start acting like Ness is more broken than Brawl Meta Knight because they either see him on a stream/YouTube video or get whooped by someone playing as Ness.

Now for my opinions on whether or not Ness should be nerfed:
No. He shouldn't be nerfed at all. Let's start with the back throw. That's been Ness's signature move since 64 and it's here to say. People don't take into account that Ness's poor mobility and grab range make it very hard for him to grab. Nerfing Sonic's back throw made sense because Sonic has the speed to run over and grab opponents from the other side of the stage when they made one mistake. Ness can't do that. Any good player fighting against Ness will know the situations which Ness likes to grab and attempt to avoid them. The lack of range makes a poorly timed grab very easy to avoid and punish. Then, there's PK Fire. PK Fire spamming only works on players that will practically dash into it. Against anyone remotely good, PK Fire is extremely punishable. If they catch you getting PK Fire happy, an easy spotdodge is all it takes to avoid the firebolt and get a free punish. PK Fire is a very high risk, high reward move. Heck, Ness himself is a very high risk, high reward character. He has a ton of good attributes that make him a real threat if used properly but, the second you knock him offstage, the match becomes a lot less fun for him. Ness doesn't deserve nerfs. He's perfectly balanced.

 

[Gnight]

Nerf Ness? No way! Not after how he was in Melee and Brawl!

 

[XCounter]

I feel like anyone that wants Ness to be nerfed still doesn't understand just how exploitable he is. He's got pretty clear strengths and weaknesses. Characters like Ness, ZSS and Mario are about as balanced as it gets, in my opinion.

Hell, in a perfect world I'd buff Ness's dair and dtilt. It's not a fast attack (frame 20), but it's a very weak meteor. It's a joke compared to his dair in previous games. Dtilt having such short range, low knockback, a launch angle of 0 and only a 30% trip rate makes it really situational to say the least. I feel like a move that short could at least have a higher trip rate.

 

[L9999]

I feel like anyone that wants Ness to be nerfed still doesn't understand just how exploitable he is. He's got pretty clear strengths and weaknesses. Characters like Ness, ZSS and Mario are about as balanced as it gets, in my opinion.

Hell, in a perfect world I'd buff Ness's dair and dtilt. It's not a fast attack (frame 20), but it's a very weak meteor. It's a joke compared to his dair in previous games. Dtilt having such short range, low knockback, a launch angle of 0 and only a 30% trip rate makes it really situational to say the least. I feel like a move that short could at least have a higher trip rate.

I would bring back N64 dair back.

 

[MoonLauncherThe1st]

Its not like his the most OP character in the game. *ahem* Pre-Patch Diddy Kong *ahem*

 

[SnowmanEX711]

I think Ness is pretty balanced. The main problem I see with him is that people (mainly trolls) keep spamming PK Fire, which gets annoying real fast. But if you can get pass that, I'm sure there isn't much problem to him.

 

[Tubruh]

Thanks everyone for replying! I never though so many people would agree!

 

[FALCON (///_V)]

I don't agree with pika fire doing 40 dAmage at times And anyone saying just jab. Guess what not all characters have a fast enough jab or if your falcon your jab doesn't reach him when your in pika fire. Reduce pika fires damage out put and length and I'd be happy honestly

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

PK Fire doesn't activate on shield, only scores maximum hits if you don't move out of it, and if you aren't using Smash DI (tapping the stick repeatedly in the direction you're trying to escape in) and you keep getting PK Fired while on fire, you pretty much deserve what you get. Get a friend and both go Ness in training mode and set each other on fire and practice getting out of it. I never take more than 2 burn cycles to get out unless I'm playing a big character like Bowser, and even then, that's only 3-4 burn cycles to get out.

 

[SharpedoByte]

I don't think so but if anything nerd his back throw. He also gets absolutely destroyed by rosa

 

[FrankTheStud]

Do people not know how to DI out of PK Fire and then shield if it's multiple? You can even reflect it when it pillars to keep Ness out and even trap him in it if you have the tools to do so. (Like Mario's cape)

Ness is crazy strong with a kill throw, spike, uair, bair, fsmash, and even pivot dsmash as somewhat reliable kill options. However, if you're brave enough, gimping Ness is not as difficult as other characters, as his recovery options are very predictable, and he is literally a sitting duck for 3 seconds while controlling his thunder. Be brave and follow him, just be smart too. Remember that you can gimp his Thunder 2 by about 25% by eating it, just remember to tech if you do. I've won most of my Ness battles my caping Thunder 2, attempting to cape Thunder 2 (getting hit instead but his distance wont let him make it) and teching, or sinply FLUDDing him while Thunder is out and making him miss himself.

Basically, Ness is incredibly strong, but he IS beatable.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

I don't agree with pika fire doing 40 dAmage at times And anyone saying just jab. Guess what not all characters have a fast enough jab or if your falcon your jab doesn't reach him when your in pika fire. Reduce pika fires damage out put and length and I'd be happy honestly

I never said use jab as an answer to pk fire, that is a terrible idea. If you take 40 damage from pk fire you need to git good, or quit smash bros. It has horrible range, bad start up and horrendous endlag, the follow up isn't guarentee above 60%, and only does real damage if you DI towards the center. If Nintendo does listen to your scrubbing and nerf ness then I will quit smash 4.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Ness doesn't need a nerf by any means. And I don't even play Ness, but I have seen enough (Top players) playing Ness to know.

In my personal opinion, it (kind of) annoys me when he kills my C.Falcon at 85% at the border of FD with a B-Throw >.<, but it's not that much if you are smart enough to exploit his obvious weakNESSes (ha, I made a pun mom!)

 

[ffdgh]

Nope but I wouldn't be opposed to his back throw getting a slight nerf while still being the strongest to remain true to smash tradition lol.

 

[Yink]

I do have to admit, I find it a bit silly when people really want the b-throw nerf and are just making it seem like Ness now needs it to be under control. I guess maybe it could get a slight nerf but, he's always had this throw and it's always been nasty.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

It's kinda funny seeing how everyone who voted to "Yes, nerf him" hasn't said anything explaining why they should nerf him, but yet we're still here giving reasons why they shouldn't regardless lol

But in all seriousness, Ness doesn't need to get nerfed or buffed, he's pretty balanced for a character, just like how every character should be.

The only reasons they can come up with are his laggy short ranged projectile and his back throw which requires getting grabbed by ness' short reaching grab which isn't great even with his unimpressive dash speed. And they can't even effectively back those up.

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

A lot of these people wouldn't think these things if they tried to use Ness.
His recovery can take a long time to get used to and an even longer time to get good with.
His specials all leave him vulnerable.
His grab range is really short.
His neutral game is stale and risky.
He can easily be overwhelmed by spam, spacing, and zone control.

Like his N64 counterpart, he may be high tier at first, but I'm suspecting that as players learn how to deal with him, he'll fall dramatically.

 

[MysticKnives]

A lot of these people wouldn't think these things if they tried to use Ness.
His recovery can take a long time to get used to and an even longer time to get good with.
His specials all leave him vulnerable.
His grab range is really short.
His neutral game is stale and risky.
He can easily be overwhelmed by spam, spacing, and zone control.

Like his N64 counterpart, he may be high tier at first, but I'm suspecting that as players learn how to deal with him, he'll fall dramatically.

This. Where would you place Ness in the tier list? I really do feel like he's top 10 material, but definitely isn't top tier.

Maybe, but that could be said for other characters as well. We also won't even get a legit tier list until the patches are done. I'd say Ness could fall shorter, but his weaknesses have been pretty much the same throughout each game. I'd say at worst he goes to top 15-20.

 

[FALCON (///_V)]

His recovery is almost untouchable for certain characters to punish if the ness players does it properly. Btw flying turltes if you ever wana call someone a scrub then why dont you play them and see what happens before you call someone out

 

[FrankTheStud]

His recovery is almost untouchable for certain characters to punish if the ness players does it properly. Btw flying turltes if you ever wana call someone a scrub then why dont you play them and see what happens before you call someone out

I wouldn't say "untouchable." Who are you having trouble with when fighting Ness?

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

His recovery is almost untouchable for certain characters to punish if the ness players does it properly. Btw flying turltes if you ever wana call someone a scrub then why dont you play them and see what happens before you call someone out

Ness' recovery can be beat by a projectile a disjoint or just a move with priority, if you feel like taking risks Mario's back air is effective. You may or May not be a scrub, but you don't know crap about ness and his exploitable weaknesses but it could also be that ness (possibly) has a really good match up against falcon, as ness has a disjoint and projectiles and falcon has neither making it hard to deal with ness. If that is the case then no character should be nerfed for a match up.
My Nintendo network ID is FLYINGTRTL if you do want to challenge me.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Or you can play any character and literally jump behind Ness while he's attempting to recover and eat the bolt. It'll even send you upward so you can probably make it back when you get hit.

Mario can literally FLUDD Ness/Lucas into their own bolt and make them shoot themselves backwards or even downwards, if they don't make them miss all together. I hope someone isn't having a problem gimping Ness's recovery as Mario, the unofficial King of Gimp.

 

[Splebel]

My biggest problem with Ness is that reflecting Fsmash he has. I'll accept that the bat can knock anything away but if go behind Ness while he's using it and I throw a projectile to punish and most likely finish the game; I don't want that thing coming back at me! It makes no sense why that move can reflect stuff behind it. It also seems to be very inconsistent about it too.

 

[FLYING 7UR7LE]

My biggest problem with Ness is that reflecting Fsmash he has. I'll accept that the bat can knock anything away but if go behind Ness while he's using it and I throw a projectile to punish and most likely finish the game; I don't want that thing coming back at me! It makes no sense why that move can reflect stuff behind it. It also seems to be very inconsistent about it too.

Reverse hit boxes are a thing a ton of side smashes have, so I don't really see it as a ness thing, also I somewhat question using a projectile to punish a side smash, maybe if you were mewtwo so you could reflect back a shadow ball. Other then that I just don't see a projectile as an optimal punish, but I could be missing something.