Yes. But are you arguing that we, armed with the same argument, should then ban Marth in Melee? AlphaZealot used this logic and this argument to argue for the fact that Marth dominated the Melee scene to such an extent he should be banned (that or he was playing Devil's Advocate, I dunno).
You don't understand what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that people have to prove that with everythat that he has, Meta Knight is "too good" to such an extent he has to be banned.
Not simply name all of the things that he has going for him and hoping to blind people with all the rhetoric. Show us how he's too good, don't just imply it.
Has the metagame devolve to the point where you have to choose Meta Knight in order to win or is it just that, a choice? Are people simply abandoning their mains because they want to?
Also, of course you stand a better chance with Meta Knight than as anyone else. He has no bad match-ups. The question is:
Does he dominate the game to such an extent you have to play as him or not stand a reasonable chance of winning (where "reasonable" is an arbitrary threshold decided upon by the community)?
Yes, you stand a better chance as him. But can you stand a good enough chance as other characters that you do not need to switch? Are people simply switching because they want to, not because they have to to stand a chance at winning?
Nevertheless, it is stil poor debating manners to argue something and then change your argument when questioned, intentionally or unintentionally.
One is legit, the other is not legit (on its own).
You're not getting it, are you? Using the same logic as some people use, we must ban Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff!
Have you just not been a part of any debate on this subject insofar? It seems as if you're coming into this not well-versed with the facts since you keep asking me for things I have already provided for the forum one jillion times.
Now, it's perfectly OK to be new to the debate. Just tell me beforehand so I'll know how much to throw at you.
Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike: Yun. Zero disadvantageous match-ups. Depending on who you ask, he's got either one single even match-up (besides himself)(Ken) or no even match-ups. He's pretty much at the top of the game with his guessing game, pressure, Super Arts and Oki-zeme, not to mention being one of the safest characters in the game.
Melty Blood Act Cadenza: (there are several builds, I do not remember which build it is I'm speaking of at the moment) Ciel. Blah, blah, same thing.
Guilty Gear XX (various builds): Depending on which version of XX, you'll have someone at the top, sometimes with zero disadvantageous match-ups on top of being pretty **** good. Oftentimes, this will be Eddie.
Soul Calibur II: IIRC, Xianghua had zero disadvantageous match-ups in this game. She also happened to have one of the best step-punishers (22_88B), some of the best combos, pressure and guessing games in the game. I could very well be wrong on this one. I don't think X had zero disadvantageous match-ups in III, but she very well might have then as well.
(Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4: Kyuukyokyu Naruto. Best character, zero disadvantageous match-ups, best pressure, best combos, best grab, etc., etc., etc. This game is in paranthesis because it's not really very widely played)
It doesn't have to come to that. I just want you to show proof that the metagame is going in that direction. As it stands, we're not even close to having to play MK to win/place high. People just choose to.
Yes, let's compare a one year old metagame with a seven years old metagame. Tell me, were you around during the Smash Eras where we had Years of Marth, Year of Sheik and Year of Fox (and to al esser extent Falco)? They each had their own times where they won and/or took most top spots of the vast majority of tournaments.
Marth shuts down plenty of characters. Just not as many as MK. Many of the characters who are shut down by MK get shut down by Marth, too.
No, we do not. We do not ban things to maximize things! We do not ban things to make the scene "the best it can be". Now, we might be trying to make it the best it can be. But we do not do that through character bans.
Because then we'd have to ban a good 7-8 characters!
Depending on who you ask, Old Sagat might not even be the best character in SSF2T. However, Old Sagat is only soft banned. Which means "Tsk, tsk, but fine!".
You don't need a secondary if you pick up, say, Marth either. So what if he's got, what, two match-ups that are slightly worse than even? You do not have to pick up a secondary to make up for two 55:45s (or one 55:45 and one 60:40 depending on who you ask)!
It's easier to play as MK, but you do not have to pick up a secondary if you main (for example) Marth.
We do not ban things to maximize diversity. We ban things if they limit diversity severely.
Old Sagat is soft-banned! Also, let's ban Marth, DeDeDe, Mr. Game & Watch, Falco and whoever while we're at it!
Prove he's "too good".
No. It's not the same thing. We ban Smash Balls and items because they are random. How is Meta Knight, in any way, random?
We ban stages because some are random, others punish you way too severely for things you cannot react to in time, others just have really, really ****ty terrain or things which you can easily be comboed into simply for being in the wrong spot at the wrong time whilst others severely limit the number of viable characters (on the stage in question), such as Hyrule Temple.
Now, you can argue that certain stages should be unbanned. But the reasons why we ban them are not applicable to Meta Knight.
We still have that. The other Top Tiers still "go well enough" against him.
It doesn't matter what the majority of the community wants. Because the majority of the community (on both sides) are biased and/or uneducated/misinformed on the subject. How many people aren't using wholly invalid arguments in this thread? Should we count their votes the same as we'd count X-player, who's been proven to be a credible debater with a lot of insight into the metagame and who is even in the SBR?
At one time, the majority of the U.S. thought black people were vile and needed to be segregated and that interracial marriage was an abomination. At one time, the majority thought women were lesser beings who shouldn't have equal rights, the ability to vote or even be allowed to wear "men's clothes".
"The majority wants this" isn't a legit argument, really. You have to prove that what the majority wants is the right thing... unless "the majority" is, like, the vast majority of the community.
What alternate universe "Play to Win" did you read? MK does not fit the pillars for banning. In fact, if we're going to go by "Play to Win", he won't be banned ever (as things stand at the moment)!
Please quote the passages from "Play to Win" which supports your argument.
Name them.
Meta Knight does not render the game competitively unviable. In fact, several communities are alive and well despite suffering their own equivalents to MK.
Character bans should always be the last resort. Stage bans? Not so much. Items are random.
My, my, aren't we creative today, stealing people's "catchphrases"? Also, prove it. Prove that I am spewing baloney by picking my arguments apart.
I just did it to you. If what I spew is baloney, you should be able to return the favor pretty easily.
And just to make sure you get the message: Items are random.
I'll give you that Supermodel from Paris can write well-formulated posts with valid points. It's too bad he's slightly misinformed on certain issues, such as, for example, why we ban items and characters, thus rendering a lot of his points invalid because they are based off of misinformation.On an unrelated note, from my short time here this man and Yuna, and others posting right now in this thread are probably my favorite posters.
Well thought-out posts with valid points and good discussion.
In what alternate universe? No, seriously, did several High Tiers randomly develop anti-Marth strats that severely limit his metagame in the past few days somehow? And if so, why the hell isn't Marth dropping lower than High in many people's minds?
At least we agree on something XD.
