Should Custom Mii's Be Seprated From Fighter Customs?

[CursedJay]

Lets take Mario for example, turn his customs off and his specials are essentially the same meaning he doesn't have to adjust his playstyle much because he is still fundamentally the same character

Lets take Mii Brawler now, I now have completely different specials, I just lost all my kill power because the player i meet in WF wont gentlemen Mii BRawler. That now means i went from playing a High Tier to a Low tier and now have to adjust completely. None of my B-moves are the same or similar

Mii Brawler without his variations is a worse Diddy and Little Mac. No point in playing that character when i can play either of those since 1111 is literally worse in every aspect

For the last time, this isnt an issue of viability. I'm only concerned with efficiency and logistics. The argument of viability does nothing to promote the use of these customs and are generally biased. Not saying your argument is, but most usually are.

 

[FSLink]

Plus I know how Miis work and like them in general, and I would never agree to an opponent using other than 1111 if that was a part of the ruleset. It puts the Mii mainer in a disadvantage always unless the opponent is just a really nice guy.

For the last time, this isnt an issue of viability. I'm only concerned with efficiency and logistics.

Miis provide little logistical overhead since they have all their specials already there and could be made very fast. Importing takes a second.

This is in a meta where we're okay with long ass button checks and making names and such.

 

[2ndComing]

For the last time, this isnt an issue of viability. I'm only concerned with efficiency and logistics. The argument of viability does nothing to promote the use of these customs and are generally biased. Not saying your argument is, but most usually are.

I know you aren't but I was just giving him a reason as to why making mii sets a gentlemen thing was not a good idea

 

[CursedJay]

Plus I know how Miis work and like them in general, and I would never agree to an opponent using other than 1111 if that was a part of the ruleset. It puts the Mii mainer in a disadvantage always unless the opponent is just a really nice guy.


Miis provide little logistical overhead since they have all their specials already there and could be made very fast. Importing takes a second.

This is in a meta where we're okay with long *** button checks and making names and such.

Exactly why I'm all for them if thats what my community wants. They want it AND its easy? Couldnt ask for anything better.

 

[2ndComing]

Exactly why I'm all for them if thats what my community wants. They want it AND its easy? Couldnt ask for anything better.

You are the homie by the way, the Mii Fighter Skype chat ****ing loves you dood

We think you are a savage lol

have a good night man and we appreciate your support in this debate for the Miis

 

[CursedJay]

Lol, nice to know. I've got your back, at least on this one.

 

[Charey]

Here's my opinion, not going into if they are customs or not.

Are Miis' 2 and 3 moves broken? No
Is there a way to allow Miis to use moves 2 and 3 without allowing every custom and the logistics problems that go with them? Yes
Is there anyone who uses 1111 Miis? I don't think so, even when just playing around for Smash Run I changed up my Mii to use all rapid kick/punch attacks.

If we limit them to 1111, no one is made happy, Mii mains are made unhappy.
If we let them use every move, Mii mains are happy, some people are annoyed at having to fight Miis.

Therefore even if it's "not fair" I think allowing custom Miis is good because it makes more people happy without causing massive logistics issues or changing the tournament to be less competitive.

 

[CursedJay]

Here's my opinion, not going into if they are customs or not.

Are Miis' 2 and 3 moves broken? No
Is there a way to allow Miis to use moves 2 and 3 without allowing every custom and the logistics problems that go with them? Yes
Is there anyone who uses 1111 Miis? I don't think so, even when just playing around for Smash Run I changed up my Mii to use all rapid kick/punch attacks.

If we limit them to 1111, no one is made happy, Mii mains are made unhappy.
If we let them use every move, Mii mains are happy, some people are annoyed at having to fight Miis.

Therefore even if it's "not fair" I think allowing custom Miis is good because it makes more people happy without causing massive logistics issues or changing the tournament to be less competitive.

Miis arent even huge problems in tournament. I once had a Mii Gunner almost take the tourney, but for the most part Miis are pretty chill in bracket.

 

[FSLink]

Here's my opinion, not going into if they are customs or not.

Are Miis' 2 and 3 moves broken? No
Is there a way to allow Miis to use moves 2 and 3 without allowing every custom and the logistics problems that go with them? Yes
Is there anyone who uses 1111 Miis? I don't think so, even when just playing around for Smash Run I changed up my Mii to use all rapid kick/punch attacks.

If we limit them to 1111, no one is made happy, Mii mains are made unhappy.
If we let them use every move, Mii mains are happy, some people are annoyed at having to fight Miis.

Therefore even if it's "not fair" I think allowing custom Miis is good because it makes more people happy without causing massive logistics issues or changing the tournament to be less competitive.

Yes and like I've said, there's in-game logic allowing them moves 2 and 3 in all modes minus For Glory. Even in Customs OFF. There's no reason to go against in-game logic unless it's

A) Harmful to the game's balance or leads to degenerative play (ex: Items, Sudden Death, some would argue customs)
B) Cause a huge logistical nightmare and not worth the time (ex: Custom-made characters in other games)

 

[Rashyboy05]

Reading all of the arguments like how many pages ago...

I still feel like it's dumb to restrict Miis to their '1111' sets. They don't cause any problems at all in terms of logistics as you already unlock them as soon as you boot up the game. I don't think they're 'broken' either as I never see Tiny Mii Brawlers taking local/major tournaments easily. I think the "Innocent until proven guilty rule" should apply to Miis here. Until we see proof that allowing Miis to use their other movesets degenerates gameplay and is uncompetitive. Miis should be allowed to use their other sets.

 

[~Burst~]

Mii players are just trying to come out of the custom banning unscathed.
"leaves miis at a disadvantage" how?
All characters can only use 1111 if you're implying its because your set is bad(Based on your opinions) oh well.
There are alot of characters that lose better moves because of this, deal.
The custom off argument isn't even a thing. You are still using a custom character since you have to make the character in custom fighters lol . . .
On release you guys were fighting for your right to use mii fighter now that you can you guys are treating miis like they are above that of a regular character and you should get special advantages which shouldn't be the case.
The whole point of banning customs is to cut down unknown factors(extended MU learning), save time, leave all characters with the same options.
As it stands there have been no legit points to allow them to get them so it shouldn't happen.

 

[CursedJay]

Mii players are just trying to come out of the custom banning unscathed.
"leaves miis at a disadvantage" how?
All characters can only use 1111 if you're implying its because your set is bad(Based on your opinions) oh well.
There are alot of characters that lose better moves because of this, deal.
The custom off argument isn't even a thing. You are still using a custom character since you have to make the character in custom fighters lol . . .
On release you guys were fighting for your right to use mii fighter now that you can you guys are treating miis like they are above that of a regular character and you should get special advantages which shouldn't be the case.
The whole point of banning customs is to cut down unknown factors(extended MU learning), save time, leave all characters with the same options.
As it stands there have been no legit points to allow them to get them so it shouldn't happen.

....Dude, I'm too tired for this. If you read the thread and found any points that you can disprove, please quote them so I can get back to you on it tomorrow

Edit: you've yet to touch on my biggest point: the topic of logistics. Compared to normal customs, Mii fighter customs are immediately accessible, removing the strain of unlocking customs via RNG. The game treats Mii fighters as non custom characters, despite having customized sets. Also, in comparison to the prior custom meta (I am a non customs guy If you read) learning 30 possibilities is much easier than running through 500+ potential MUs. Also, we've pretty much come to the conclusion that each will have his own. Mii Customs are definitely not hurting anyone, though.

To be quite honest, not wanting to learn the simple 30 possibilities equates to laziness on the players part. That's pretty much 2-3 days of moderate. practice, which is what you should be doing to prep for a tournament anyway. I side with you in saying that just flinging customs into the meta the way they were put a lot of responsibility into the hands of the player, way too much IMO. This is a very controlled, very finite introduction to customs, one which I can support as a non custom advocate.

 

[~Burst~]

....Dude, I'm too tired for this. If you read the thread and found any points that you can disprove, please quote them so I can get back to you on it tomorrow

Edit: you've yet to touch on my biggest point: the topic of logistics. Compared to normal customs, Mii fighter customs are immediately accessible, removing the strain of unlocking customs via RNG. The game treats Mii fighters as non custom characters, despite having customized sets. Also, in comparison to the prior custom meta (I am a non customs guy If you read) learning 30 possibilities is much easier than running through 500+ potential MUs. Also, we've pretty much come to the conclusion that each will have his own. Mii Customs are definitely not hurting anyone, though.

Too tired for what? I'm not going to sit here and debate my reason to keep the status quo you're job is to give solid reasons as why the rules should change that is what this is. Like I said there have been 0 legit reasons that actually involve competitive play. Logistics have almost nothing to do with the in game factor so why is that trying to be used as a point to give a character an advantage? You guys are pretty much saying " oh well our customs are open right out the gate so we should get them" No, that is not how it works.
We all know miis are 100% a custom character so why are people sitting here trying say that when custom off is toggled we can pick a custom character so they should be treated as a regular character? No, that is not how this works.

Why don't you guys make ACTUAL ingame applications that give us a reason make the entire community have to learn a different set of MUs.

 

[FSLink]

Mii players are just trying to come out of the custom banning unscathed.
"leaves miis at a disadvantage" how?
All characters can only use 1111 if you're implying its because your set is bad(Based on your opinions) oh well.
There are alot of characters that lose better moves because of this, deal.
The custom off argument isn't even a thing. You are still using a custom character since you have to make the character in custom fighters lol . . .
On release you guys were fighting for your right to use mii fighter now that you can you guys are treating miis like they are above that of a regular character and you should get special advantages which shouldn't be the case.
The whole point of banning customs is to cut down unknown factors(extended MU learning), save time, leave all characters with the same options.
As it stands there have been no legit points to allow them to get them so it shouldn't happen.

You did not even read my arguments, have you? Read again.

Customs OFF argument is a thing, the in-game options allow you to use Miis and they are an exception. They have a separate toggle in Tourney Mode for Mii Fighters vs Custom Fighters. Why should we go against the in-game logic unless it's harmful to the meta? Nobody has even put up a good argument against this. The game itself allows them to use their 2222/3333 in Customs OFF. The argument is legitimate, please explain to me why we should avoid using the in-game logic if allowing Miis with their full movesets isn't harmful to the meta. You don't want to learn more matchups? That's a horrible reasoning.

You either ban the Miis entirely because they are in essence, a custom made character since they are available in the customs menu.
Or you allow them fully as is because the game allows them with all their specials. They disable equipment in Customs OFF, they allow a separate toggle in Tourney Mode. They were clearly designed as an exception to the rule.

I'd rather have them in because allowing more matchups is a GOOD thing. Why do you think people were pressing for customs in the first place? Because they initially believed they would make the matchups more interesting and complex with more variables, but people believed they were "jank" or whatever argument they feel, not because they had to learn more matchups. If you're playing competitively, you have to learn matchups. Or should we start banning DLC characters because you don't want more matchups?

 

[N7Kopper]

Personally, I've always been of the idea that the whole "customs" thing was caused simply by Nintendo's own stupidity and shoddy implementation. Only equipment should have been subjected to "customisations on or off" - moves should have simply been chosen Street Fighter IV style - simply picking the options on the CSS directly, and having them all from the start. Turning off customisations should have also nullified the statistical differences of amiibo levels and fed equipment, (I have five of the things, and the joy is in teaching them how to play, not minmaxing their stats) but I digress. It's kind of ridiculous from a fighting game perspective to give three arbitrary characters the ability to use their custom moves when customs aren't allowed in-game (with the very notable exception of Event mode, where the three Mii Fighters have the same rules regarding custom moves as the rest of the non-DLC cast - a fact that's existed since version 1, and is still around as of this latest version - while it is most likely a giltch, it indicates that the game does regard the non-1111 moves of Miis to be custom, but it merely has a hardcoded exception for them) - and have a forth character where unlocks aren't an issue, but she still can't use them unless customs are on, despite being balanced with them in mind. Even if such an advantage doesn't overly upset the singles, doubles, or squads (does anyone even do squads anymore? They seem rather impractical, setup-wise) balance, it still is an advantage.

But we play the hand we're dealt. And from a party game perspective, given that Miis are individual characters, with the classes of Brawler, Sword Fighter, or Gunner, as opposed to simply being the characters Brawler, Sword Fighter, or Gunner, it does make sense. But that's just standard, casual play. If I played those classes at EVO, I wouldn't play as myself in a snazzy tux with a dorky purple forearm cannon that shoots fire and bombs, or Afterlife Empires character Vivian James in a suit of knight armour and a frilly headband, or JoJo's Bizarre Adventure character Dio Brando with weird plastic bat wings he never wore, I would just play as Gunner, Sword Fighter, or Brawler. That being a tournament ruleset versus the generic programmed-in ruleset of the game makes no real difference from a "muh principles" perspective - since the programmed-in rules are made by humans... just like the EVO house rules, being that those houserules are easily policable, unlike "no DI" rules. While most no-customs tournaments allow you to use an actual Mii as opposed to the character's iconic appearance, they still play by "1111" rules, disallowing any non-visual changes.

In closing, while I don't believe that Mii Fighters should be allowed to use non-1111 movesets in standard "no customs" tournament sets, I do believe that there should be experimental sets that play by the game's rules, and allow those three characters to use their custom special moves, while no other characters can - just like how the game plays all non-Event modes - and if the playerbase overwhelmingly prefers those rulings, they can become the standard "no customs" set in future. I prefer all characters to be allowed access to all their moves, even though it does leave Mewtwo, Roy, and Lucas with somewhat of a disadvantage due to not having them (Ryu's lack of customs is offset by having five basic specials rather than four)

 

[FSLink]

Coming primarily from a SF/Marvel mindset, if it's in the game, I feel it should be allowed. Mii Fighters are allowed in Customs OFF, we should allow it unless it's detrimental to the meta.

I've repeated this many times, and instead people would rather argue about definitions about what is and isn't a custom, when we should focus INSTEAD on whether it's healthy for the meta. Allowing these characters to play as they are in-game is not harmful to the meta. It's allowed in-game, it's not harmful, it causes no logistical problems to TOs, what's the issue here? You would rather lose some interesting matchups and remove access to these characters for a few dedicated mainers just because you want to push your arbitrary logic over the in-game logic?

How is this an unreasonable argument over "I don't want to learn more matchups?" Somebody please explain this to me.

 

[N7Kopper]

Coming primarily from a SF/Marvel mindset, if it's in the game, I feel it should be allowed. Mii Fighters are allowed in Customs OFF, we should allow it unless it's detrimental to the meta.

I've repeated this many times, and instead people would rather argue about definitions about what is and isn't a custom, when we should focus INSTEAD on whether it's healthy for the meta. Allowing these characters to play as they are in-game is not harmful to the meta. It's allowed in-game, it's not harmful, it causes no logistical problems to TOs, what's the issue here? You would rather lose some interesting matchups and remove access to these characters for a few dedicated mainers just because you want to push your arbitrary logic over the in-game logic?

I think the two valid arguments are that "the in-game logic is just as arbitrary as the TO's 1111 rule logic" and "Why do only three characters get a pass? That's unfair."

That's why I want experimental sets. See what people prefer. (I prefer all customs, all the time, but that takes work to get setups for. Because crap.) There's no real objective reason to ban non-1111 sets, aside from the fairness argument (which could also be applied to banning customs altogether, since Roy, Mewtwo, Lucas, and Ryu have none - and I don't want that to happen myself) but people might not like that.

Also, please disregard my report of a double post on FSLink's part. The site screwed up and rendered an edit as a new post.

 

[FSLink]

Again, we shouldn't ban things because they are unfair, but because they are harmful to the meta or provide issues to tournaments logistically. Allowing the exception of Mii Fighters when the in-game logic allows it makes sense to me. They are allowed that pass because the game allows it.

 

[~Burst~]

You did not even read my arguments, have you? Read again.

Customs OFF argument is a thing, the in-game options allow you to use Miis and they are an exception. They have a separate toggle in Tourney Mode for Mii Fighters vs Custom Fighters. Why should we go against the in-game logic unless it's harmful to the meta? Nobody has even put up a good argument against this. The game itself allows them to use 2222/3333 in Customs OFF. The argument is legitimate, please explain to me why we should avoid using the in-game logic if allowing Miis with their full movesets isn't harmful to the meta. You don't want to learn more matchups? That's a horrible reasoning.

You should probably edit your post to say "I didn't read your post" And yet you keep repeating something I have said two times, who cares if the game allows the other custom sets its a custom set and the tournament rule is no customs.
Tournaments are not made around the default menu of the game in case you didn't already realize tournaments have always been adjusted to a ruleset that is for a leveled and competitive environment.
You can also stop trying to twist my words in this scenario. No one said I didn't want them legal because I didn't want to learn the MU I said give valid reasons as to why the community should be learning a different set of MUs instead of playing the game to get better. Its almost been a year I'm pretty sure people are getting tired of losing in tournament because of jank things they don't know about.

 

[Magik0722]

And that's why I made more than a single point. Like I already said, if every other character is forced to use 1111, then I argue it's only fair that Mii Fighters use them as well.

we could look at it another way as well. With rhe custom toggle set to off every character is forced to what the game allows on custom off, this happenes to be 1111 for everyone except miis. I think you are looking at it too narrowly.

 

[FSLink]

You should probably edit your post to say "I didn't read your post" And yet you keep repeating something I have said two times, who cares if the game allows the other custom sets its a custom set and the tournament rule is no customs.
Tournaments are not made around the default menu of the game in case you didn't already realize tournaments have always been adjusted to a ruleset that is for a leveled and competitive environment.
You can also stop trying to twist my words in this scenario. No one said I didn't want them legal because I didn't want to learn the MU I said give valid reasons as to why the community should be learning a different set of MUs instead of playing the game to get better. Its almost been a year I'm pretty sure people are getting tired of losing in tournament because of jank things they don't know about.

I read your post.

Why would Miis with all their specials go against this "leveled and competitive environment"? They are hardcoded as an exception. You can't just hand wave that with "who cares". They should learn the MUs since it's built into the game. There's no reason to go against in-game logic here.

we could look at it another way as well. With rhe custom toggle set to off every character is forced to what the game allows on custom off, this happenes to be 1111 for everyone except miis. I think you are looking at it too narrowly.

Agreed. There's no reason to go against the toggle here if it's not harmful to the meta.

 

[N7Kopper]

But then... what decides what is and isn't harmful to the meta, if not by it being unfair? Planking edges in Melee is harmful to the meta, as it's unfair. If done perfectly, there's no counter to it besides physically interfering with your opponent in real life, or never letting them get even a 1% lead over you. Same with the Freeze glitch in NTSC - except that even physical interference won't counter it. (at best, you could SD all of your opponent's stocks) Only directly editing the RAM of the GCN/Wii could possibly do so. The former example isn't even a glitch, merely an exploit, like wavedashing. The difference being that wavedashing isn't unfair. It actually spices up the game by giving every character additional options. Lots of them, in fact. To the point where if only Mewtwo, Kirby, and Pichu were allowed to use it, they would jump a large number of spots on the tier lists. Menus, shmenus. I could put on equipment to change my stats in customs on tournaments, but I'm not allowed to. Why should Mii Fighters be an exception to that rule in customs off tournaments without community vote? And not just this thread. The whole competitive community. With tournament experience of the ruling.

Playing devil's advocate here, even some perceived "benefit for the meta" shouldn't mean "Only allow three characters to use a feature that all but four of the cast can use, simply because they have access to it when some arbitrary menu selection is switched off" - because who decides what benefits the meta? Brawler, Sword Fighter and Gunner mains, and those who's mains are good counters for them? Tournaments have cash prizes - such motivations must be questioned. It's the sad nature of the beast.

The menu selection is arbitrary. Just as arbitrary as disallowing that advantage from being used.

So the task is for us, as a community, to decide which arbitrary ruling should take priority. I can't really help with that - I do "all customs on" pretty much exclusively in serious play.

 

[Magik0722]

The menu selection is arbitrary. Just as arbitrary as disallowing that advantage from being used.

So the task is for us, as a community, to decide which arbitrary ruling should take priority. I can't really help with that - I do "all customs on" pretty much exclusively in serious play.

The problem is the 1111 rule was a completely arbitrary rule made early in the game lifespan. I'd rather side with the dev's arbitrary decision (i dont think it was arbitrary) then a player's arbitrary decision, especially one that restricts great competitive content into the community.

 

[FSLink]

But then... what decides wha t is and isn't harmful to the meta, if not by it being unfair? Planking edges in Melee is harmful to the meta, as it's unfair. If done perfectly, there's no counter to it besides physically interfering with your opponent in real life, or never letting them get even a 1% lead over you. Same with the Freeze glitch in NTSC - except that even physical interference won't counter it. Only directly editing the RAM of the GCN/Wii could possibly do so. The former example isn't even a glitch, merely an exploit, like wavedashing. The difference being that wavedashing isn't unfair. It actually spices up the game by giving every character additional options. Lots of them, in fact. To the point where if only Mewtwo, Kirby, and Pichu were allowed to use it, they would jump a large number of spots on the tier lists.

Playing devil's advocate here, even some perceived "benefit for the meta" shouldn't mean "Only allow three characters to use a feature that all but four of the cast can use, simply because they have access to it when some arbitrary menu selection is switched off" - because who decides what benefits the meta? Brawler, Sword Fighter and Gunner mains, and those who's mains are good counters for them? Tournaments have cash prizes - such motivations must be questioned. It's the sad nature of the beast.

The menu selection is arbitrary. Just as arbitrary as disallowing that advantage from being used.

So the task is for us, as a community, to decide which arbitrary ruling should take priority. I can't really help with that - I do "all customs on" pretty much exclusively in serious play.

But there's a difference between ban worthy and unfair.

Something like Sheik's Bouncing Fish could be seen as "unfair", but it isn't harmful to the meta and it isn't ban worthy. Items are "unfair" but they do cause harm due to their randomness and are usually considered ban worthy to most people.

Miis do not fall into this category of being unfair and ban worthy I feel. I do agree that it's an odd exception but it's built into the game. There's really no reason to go against it because it doesn't cause any harmful outcomes to tournaments.

The 1111 rule for Miis is absolutely arbitrary, it's a compromise that shouldn't be there when the in-game logic allows it. I'm in agreement I'd rather side with the developers' likely intention here especially when it removes 3 characters' uniqueness to the meta.

 

[N7Kopper]

The problem is the 1111 rule was a completely arbitrary rule made early in the game lifespan. I'd rather side with the dev's arbitrary decision (i dont think it was arbitrary) then a player's arbitrary decision, especially one that restricts great competitive content into the community.

Given the choice between one or the other, I would rather side with the arbitrary decision of a community of players dedicated to making the game as fair as possible, in order to give it as diverse a meta as possible, than one made by game developers before the product was released, for reasons mostly unrelated to the meta.

As previously mentioned, the "customs aren't custom lel" rule of Mii Fighters is to promote diversity between Lonk and Cloud. If you're talking official Nintendo arbitration, then Mii Fighters should be banned altogether from non-customs - as For Glory's ruleset is the "official" competitive one. And Mii Fighters are only allowed in... wait for it... custom Glory. Given that Super Smash Bros. is the only online game with Miis where they could not be used in matchmaking until very recently, (hell, Boom/Fortune Street required that you use a Mii for online play) and even now only in Tournament mode, and not in the For Glory regular tournaments, only the For Fun, Custom Fun, and Custom Glory ones, Nintendo's worry wasn't about perverted "cougars" playing as Vagina Face around little boys and girls, they were worried about custom moves. Even games such as Mario Kart Wii where the Mii characters had statistical differences from the rest of the cast which made them utterly unique characters didn't ban or even restrict their use, outside of client-side filtering which merely replaced them with default Guest Miis anyway.

But we're not Nintendo. We're the competitive community of Super Smash Bros. - and we make our own rules. And my vote is to trial this idea in special tournament sets and see how popular they are. Because I like the idea. (because more custom moves is more better, in my opinion) Just not the whole "let's change every rule ever without letting people playtest it first" thing.

But there's a difference between ban worthy and unfair.

Something like Sheik's Bouncing Fish could be seen as "unfair", but it isn't harmful to the meta and it isn't ban worthy. Items are "unfair" but they do cause harm due to their randomness and are usually considered ban worthy to most people.

Miis do not fall into this category of being unfair and ban worthy I feel. I do agree that it's an odd exception but it's built into the game. There's really no reason to go against it because it doesn't cause any harmful outcomes to tournaments.

The 1111 rule for Miis is absolutely arbitrary, it's a compromise that shouldn't be there when the in-game logic allows it. I'm in agreement I'd rather side with the developers' likely intention here especially when it removes 3 characters' uniqueness to the meta.

Don't make this about subjective "unfairness" versus "ban worthy" when "ban worthy" only means "objective unfairness" anyway.
Sheik is the only character with Bouncing Fish - but every character has a down special 1 which can be used in any match. Which is why the Mii Fighters' advantages in this area could be seen as unfair. But we won't know this unless we try.

The pro and anti arguments on this issue are both valid. It's a subjective issue anyway.
So, I say again. This is a call to TOs to trial this proposed ruleset, and see how the playerbase likes it, and what impact it has.

I already said I have no personal opinion, because I favour rulesets where every character that has custom moves can use 'em so heavily.

 

[Magik0722]

Given the choice between one or the other, I would rather side with the arbitrary decision of a community of players dedicated to making the game as fair as possible, in order to give it as diverse a meta as possible, than one made by game developers before the product was released, for reasons mostly unrelated to the meta.

As previously mentioned, the "customs aren't custom lel" rule of Mii Fighters is to promote diversity between Lonk and Cloud. If you're talking official Nintendo arbitration, then Mii Fighters should be banned altogether from non-customs - as For Glory's ruleset is the "official" competitive one. And Mii Fighters are only allowed in... wait for it... custom Glory. Given that Super Smash Bros. is the only online game with Miis where they could not be used in matchmaking until very recently, (hell, Boom/Fortune Street required that you use a Mii for online play) and even now only in Tournament mode, and not in the For Glory regular tournaments, only the For Fun, Custom Fun, and Custom Glory ones, Nintendo's worry wasn't about perverted "cougars" playing as Vagina Face around little boys and girls, they were worried about custom moves. Even games such as Mario Kart Wii where the Mii characters had statistical differences from the rest of the cast which made them utterly unique characters didn't ban or even restrict their use, outside of client-side filtering which merely replaced them with default Guest Miis anyway.

It wasn't decided by the community, it was decided by the apex TO's early on, it just stuck around since when new TO's wanted to make tournaments they just copied the apex ruleset. If you want the decision from the community, just look at the poll results in this thread.
I couldnt understand your second paragraph at all, you used alot of niche words for various games and online mode, which i don't use.

 

[N7Kopper]

It wasn't decided by the community, it was decided by the apex TO's early on, it just stuck around since when new TO's wanted to make tournaments they just copied the apex ruleset. If you want the decision from the community, just look at the poll results in this thread.
I couldnt understand your second paragraph at all, you used alot of niche words for various games and online mode, which i don't use.

So, Apex made a decision, and the community of TOs liked the decision and followed suit, and the community of players liked the decision and kept signing up? I don't care about that, I play customs. I'm just trying to look out for the people who don't play customs here.
I dunno, I think that beats a thread. Which can be brigaded. Convenient how the "I couldn't understand" part is the part which pretty much destroys the argument that "it should be done because the game does it" though. There's a reason that TOs have a large say in these proceedings - they're not the ones who stand to win big money matches from the whole affair.

I think I'm done with this thread anyway. I said my piece - and was never trying to convince anyone stubborn. Just the undecided lurkers.

 

[Magik0722]

I dunno, I think that beats a thread. Which can be brigaded. Convenient how the "I couldn't understand" part is the part which pretty much destroys the argument that "it should be done because the game does it" though.

Do you really think in just trying to ignore it or that i really dont know who lonk and cloud are and how they relate to mii fitghters, what boom / fortune is, how mario kart works online, or what client-side filtering is.
I didn't say i dont understand your argument, i litterally didnt know what you were saying.

 

[AEMehr]

Eh, I would much prefer the Mii Fighters to be allowed full reign of their specials. I mean at least Swordfighter and Gunner are usable in 1111, Brawler is pretty abysmal in comparison.

Something really cool about the guys who play these characters is that nobody really has the exact same set, because everyone has their own likening to the character's playstyle. There are multiple uses for each move (except for Gunner's Neutral 2, nobody likes that thing).

It's funny that we take 50/50 as the "Default" height and weight, because you know, when you make a new Mii that is what they give you. But it turns out Nintendo's take on the "Default" Mii is actually 52ish/47ish. Each Guest Mii actually uses that, and when you download a Mii via QR code that's available on the Smash DLC page they all use that height and weight. Of course, the official Mii QR Codes for Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner utilize that height and weight setup too. So does that mean we need to change the default setup because of the Guest Miis or do we need to make Miis for every Wii U to let the 50/50 setup still be a thing??

I mean I want Mii Fighters to be able to use any of their specials, but they need to be allowed to use varying height / weight. That's a pretty important part of the character, I mean they were developed with at least that much in mind. I suppose you could say specials were an after thought, even though development history shows that they really weren't, a big key factor of Mii Fighters are that they have varying height and weight. A pretty key mechanic unique to them: like Little Mac having a KO Meter, or Ryu having light and medium variations of his grounded normals. You can't fairly not allow Mii Fighters to make use of their unique mechanic when other characters can do so without any controversy.
Besides, most people are probably going to want to use small Miis anyways. I know I'm totally fond of the 25/0 build EVO used. So the chances of needing to learn an absurd amount of height/weight matchup stuff is pretty unlikely in a competitive setting.

 

[FSLink]

Given the choice between one or the other, I would rather side with the arbitrary decision of a community of players dedicated to making the game as fair as possible, in order to give it as diverse a meta as possible, than one made by game developers before the product was released, for reasons mostly unrelated to the meta.

As previously mentioned, the "customs aren't custom lel" rule of Mii Fighters is to promote diversity between Lonk and Cloud. If you're talking official Nintendo arbitration, then Mii Fighters should be banned altogether from non-customs - as For Glory's ruleset is the "official" competitive one. And Mii Fighters are only allowed in... wait for it... custom Glory. Given that Super Smash Bros. is the only online game with Miis where they could not be used in matchmaking until very recently, (hell, Boom/Fortune Street required that you use a Mii for online play) and even now only in Tournament mode, and not in the For Glory regular tournaments, only the For Fun, Custom Fun, and Custom Glory ones, Nintendo's worry wasn't about perverted "cougars" playing as Vagina Face around little boys and girls, they were worried about custom moves. Even games such as Mario Kart Wii where the Mii characters had statistical differences from the rest of the cast which made them utterly unique characters didn't ban or even restrict their use, outside of client-side filtering which merely replaced them with default Guest Miis anyway.

I think Nintendo feel there's a difference between having Hitler race along with you and Hitler beating up your favorite Nintendo character or one of their third party partners' characters online. But we could only guess. Again I'd rather go with allowing the characters as they provide no harm to the meta. I'm pretty confident in saying if Apex allowed Miis, most other tournaments would have allowed Miis as well too.

Don't make this about subjective "unfairness" versus "ban worthy" when "ban worthy" only means "objective unfairness" anyway.
Sheik is the only character with Bouncing Fish - but every character has a down special 1 which can be used in any match. Which is why the Mii Fighters' advantages in this area could be seen as unfair. But we won't know this unless we try.

The pro and anti arguments on this issue are both valid. It's a subjective issue anyway.
So, I say again. This is a call to TOs to trial this proposed ruleset, and see how the playerbase likes it, and what impact it has.

I already said I have no personal opinion, because I favour rulesets where every character that has custom moves can use 'em so heavily.

I can see why it can be seen as unfair for Miis to have more specials, but unfairness to the point of being banned must be proven either with tournament results or show that it's very harmful to gameplay like something like Order Tackle + Amplifying Reflector was, that's the point I was trying to make. We should really let them be allowed if the game allows it.





I also do think they should be allowed with varying heights. No reason not to unless it's turns out to be broken or game breaking. Seeing Miis used at tournaments/EVO/etc, I don't think there's any data that suggests that.

 

[Magik0722]

I think Nintendo feel there's a difference between having Hitler race along with you and Hitler beating up your favorite Nintendo character or one of their third party partners' characters online. But we could only guess. Again I'd rather go with allowing the characters as they provide no harm to the meta. I'm pretty confident in saying if Apex allowed Miis, most other tournaments would have allowed Miis as well too.

Was that what he was trying to say? Those games have different developers.

 

[Auramaniji]

Was that what he was trying to say? Those games have different developers.

I'm confused...can you explain that again if you don't mind?

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Personally yeah, that's why I myself am against it. I don't want to see miis get a crutch to be good instead of just learning to use the moves given to them like literally every single other character.

This really misses the major point. It's not that they need their full movelist options in order to be good. It's that they don't even make sense on a character design level if we insist on forcing them to run 1111. Brawler is reduced to fishing for random smashes to kill, because none of his post-throw setups realistically threaten to kill until very silly percentages. 1111 Brawler has garbage recovery, no kill move mixups worth noting, and basically just shambles around aimlessly.

1111 Swordfighter is so over-specialized on close combat that he may as well be Brawler.

1111 Gunner at least has a coherent game plan, but 2 out of 3 is a pretty bad ratio.

Allowing them their full move list isn't 'a crutch.' It's giving them everything their body is capable of from the onset.

People keep trotting out 1111 Palutena as part of this argument too, and I will simply say this is irrelevant. Palutena has Customs. She has true, defined Defaults. You can argue that she's low tier and maybe she is, but she still has a plan and tools to bring about the situations she wants. I can tell you basically how a 1111 Palutena wants to win.

I can't do the same for Brawler. 1111 Brawler just straight-up does not make sense when you play as him.

 

[LimitCrown]

This really misses the major point. It's not that they need their full movelist options in order to be good. It's that they don't even make sense on a character design level if we insist on forcing them to run 1111. Brawler is reduced to fishing for random smashes to kill, because none of his post-throw setups realistically threaten to kill until very silly percentages. 1111 Brawler has garbage recovery, no kill move mixups worth noting, and basically just shambles around aimlessly.

1111 Swordfighter is so over-specialized on close combat that he may as well be Brawler.

1111 Gunner at least has a coherent game plan, but 2 out of 3 is a pretty bad ratio.

Allowing them their full move list isn't 'a crutch.' It's giving them everything their body is capable of from the onset.

People keep trotting out 1111 Palutena as part of this argument too, and I will simply say this is irrelevant. Palutena has Customs. She has true, defined Defaults. You can argue that she's low tier and maybe she is, but she still has a plan and tools to bring about the situations she wants. I can tell you basically how a 1111 Palutena wants to win.

I can't do the same for Brawler. 1111 Brawler just straight-up does not make sense when you play as him.

You're stating that the 1111 Brawler "doesn't make sense" when you actually mean that the character isn't that good wiith that moveset. Besides, how good a character is with the default moveset doesn't matter. You're also stating that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves or even default special moves, which is a silly argument because it is incorrect to begin with. If all of the different types of Mii Fighters start with the same moveset, then how do they not have definable default special moves? Because their special moves are like Palutena's special moves, how are the Mii Fighters and Palutena incomparable?

What I've noticed about the argument for the Mii Fighters to use their custom moves and even the argument for custom moves in general is that people seem to believe that stating something multiple times makes that statement more true even though it is fallacious to begin with, which is proof by assertion. Even though it was already shown that the claim that the Mii Fighter don't have "custom" moves or defaults is fallacious to begin with, the opposition is still eager to repeat that claim along with repeating the argument that treating their preselected moveset as the default is "arbitrary". (I'll also say that the word "arbitrary" is overused.) Also, another thing that I noticed is that those people are trying to suppress any discussion from those that think differently by repeating these statements despite the fact that those are false, make subtle insults against that group, and outnumber them in the conversation, trying to overwhelm them. I believe that this is disingenuous.

 

[Auramaniji]

Because their special moves are like Palutena's special moves, how are the Mii Fighters and Palutena incomparable?

Just admit to one flaw with 1111, don't flat out ignore the guy and beat around the bush with more excuses...

Besides, he already gave splendid counter arguments above including one for Palutena that you keep circling around.

 

[Dooms]

You should probably edit your post to say "I didn't read your post" And yet you keep repeating something I have said two times, who cares if the game allows the other custom sets its a custom set and the tournament rule is no customs.
Tournaments are not made around the default menu of the game in case you didn't already realize tournaments have always been adjusted to a ruleset that is for a leveled and competitive environment.
You can also stop trying to twist my words in this scenario. No one said I didn't want them legal because I didn't want to learn the MU I said give valid reasons as to why the community should be learning a different set of MUs instead of playing the game to get better. Its almost been a year I'm pretty sure people are getting tired of losing in tournament because of jank things they don't know about.

No customs doesn't mean "everyone is 1111" until it is officially in a majority of tournament rules. "Every character plays as 1111" or "1111 only". "Custom fighters are turned off" or "No customs" simply means that Mii Fighters can use every move until an extra rule is created to specifically limit them, and most (if not all) custom-off rulesets prove this. If they didn't, this wouldn't be an argument.

1111 Mii Fighter is just as custom as 1112. There is no way to disprove this because they're a custom fighter.

Also, the amount of matchups doesn't matter at all. Like, that's a garbage argument, and no one is going to take you seriously if you have that argument lmao. Why does it matter if you have to learn more matchups? Sucks for the player that doesn't bother to learn them. ZeRo (and all top players) will do fine against Mii players that are equal to or worse than them in skill. Dapuffster, San, and Trela are the only Mii users taking legitimate sets off of top players, and guess what? They would be top players regardless of character. If you're using matchups as a reason to limit Mii's, you're a low level player that needs to realize that tournaments are for more than casual play.

Ban something if it's broken or makes the game unfair. Mii Fighters don't fall under either of those requirements. Sucks that people are trying to ban them due to "equal treatment" and expect us to have to argue against them when they say things like "Mii Fighters are just like every other character." Since you're completely unrealistic to argue with once you start comparing them to the rest of the cast (because they're nothing like the rest of the cast) and you will already become a brick wall to talk to at that point.

 

[CursedJay]

Ahh, 6 hours of sleep. How Sweet you are.

Now to get back to this.

Too tired for what? I'm not going to sit here and debate my reason to keep the status quo you're job is to give solid reasons as why the rules should change that is what this is. Like I said there have been 0 legit reasons that actually involve competitive play. Logistics have almost nothing to do with the in game factor so why is that trying to be used as a point to give a character an advantage? You guys are pretty much saying " oh well our customs are open right out the gate so we should get them" No, that is not how it works.
We all know miis are 100% a custom character so why are people sitting here trying say that when custom off is toggled we can pick a custom character so they should be treated as a regular character? No, that is not how this works.

Why don't you guys make ACTUAL ingame applications that give us a reason make the entire community have to learn a different set of MUs.

To be very honest with you, the ingame applications are not my problem. I don't play Mii Fighter; I barely care about Mii fighters. The only reason that I support this in the first place is because the Mii customs are (a.)Easy to provide. As a TO this is sort of a big deal. It really doesn't take anything off me to just include them. And then (b.) they are available through the non custom character select screen. This is a fact, whether you or I like it or not. There are tons of assumptions that branch off of this, but this is at its core the reason that this is an argument in the first place.

Mii players are just trying to come out of the custom banning unscathed.
"leaves miis at a disadvantage" how?
All characters can only use 1111 if you're implying its because your set is bad(Based on your opinions) oh well.
There are alot of characters that lose better moves because of this, deal.

I never take the "But I want my D tier character to go up 3 whole tiers" argument seriously. Tiers are designed the way they are for a reason. Some characters have better tools and are inherently more viable than others. The concept of viability is already relative. It's best to just disregard all of these.

The custom off argument isn't even a thing. You are still using a custom character since you have to make the character in custom fighters lol . . .
...
The whole point of banning customs is to cut down unknown factors(extended MU learning), save time, leave all characters with the same options.
As it stands there have been no legit points to allow them to get them so it shouldn't happen.

To address the first point, this would call for a complete ban of Mii Fighters, wouldn't it? I've raised the point but haven't done much to emphasize it. If we really are taking the "All or nothing" approach, then Miis should be banned in non custom play.

The second point,as I've said, I also agree with. I don't like what customs demanded of anyone, player OR TO. However, 30 extra matchups is not an unreasonable number to prepare for, taking only 2 or 3 days to learn compared to the solid month or two it would take to properly prepare for all customs. This creates a skill barrier that should not be there. Custom Miis are also easier to prepare for than all customs, simply because everyone has access to them right from the get-go. I look at this strictly from a logistical standpoint. There is no data to suggest that allowing or removing these characters from the non-custom meta will deteriorate or enhance the player experience. If there is demand and it is simple to prepare and provide, there is no reason that I would deny. Conversely, if there is no demand, there is no reason to prepare and provide.

This, like many other topics come down to the TO's discretion. Allow us to work our rulesets around our audiences. When time for a major tournament, we come together and the majority will rule. No arguments, no debates. Just raw numbers to see whether the majority have been playing with or without things.

 

[LimitCrown]

Just admit to one flaw with 1111, don't flat out ignore the guy and beat around the bush with more excuses...

Besides, he already gave splendid counter arguments above including one for Palutena that you keep circling around.

Those counter-arguments weren't splendid at all. In fact, those weren't even counter-arguments; those were mainly restatements of the same flawed arguments that people used before. Whether the Mii Brawler, or any character for that matter, has bad default special moves doesn't matter. That isn't the point of the argument, which is about wheher the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit them. I've also given examples of the opposition using proof by assertion many times, and it's apparent in the arguments that those people had with GwJ. People frequently said that it is arbitrary to say that the Mii Fighters preselected moveset, which is 1111, is the default and have also continuously argued that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves or default even though that assertion was shown to be incorrect. Even still, many people and you disregard the comparison between Palutena and the Mii Fighters without any valid reason.

 

[Ghostbone]

Giving people in this thread a warning to ignore LimitCrown.
It's like banging your head against a wall.

 

[CursedJay]

Those counter-arguments weren't splended at all. In fact, those weren't even counter-arguments; those are mainly restatements of the same flawed arguments that people used before. Whether the Mii Brawler, or any character for that matter, has bad default special moves doesn't matter. That isn't the point of the argument, which is about wheher the Mii Fighters should be able to use their custom moves in tournaments that prohibit them. I've also given examples of the opposition using proof by assertion many times, and it's apparent in the arguments that those people had with GwJ. People frequently said that it is arbitrary to say that the Mii Fighters preselected moveset, which is 1111, is the default and have also continuously argued that the Mii Fighters don't have custom moves or default even though that assertion was shown to be incorrect. Even still, many people and you disregard the comparison between Palutena and the Mii Fighters without any valid reason.

I've totally missed what's going on here. Care to explain? You seem to be throwing shade at me.

I have always viewed the issue of Customs as a logistical one. Mii's customs do not present any logistical issues, as they are available even in the default character select screen.

Palutena requires a modification of the character select screen, essentially altering the non custom argument to a custom one. Call it a glitch or an accident, but customizable Mii Fighters are in the default meta. Whether we want to recognize their existence in the Default meta is a different story, but there is no reason to not include them, at least for a logistical standpoint.

I've slightly edited my stance on this. There is in fact reason to not include them, but if they were to be included, there are very few logistical issues with implementing them.