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@)(@*#)@# Short hopping...

DarkShadowRage

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God **** it! I hate that I can't do this properly in battle, I can do this all over when i'm alone, but when i'm in battle I always land on platforms and I get juggled...yet people can do it with ease...it really pisses me off when people use it to show off short hopping back and forth after they KO'd me it's like "I CAN DO IT! YOU CAN SO THEREFORE YOU PHAIL!"

Ugh...if I don't learn how to do this stupid thing correctly i'll constantly be getting my *** beat...Everytime I try to do it I always get hit out of it and thrown into a juggle and that's more annoying than getting chained..... help... T_T
 

looduhcriss

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I feel...that its impossible with X/Y button, but with the control stick its simple...lol

but thats just me - and i share the same problems, cuz i use X/Y to jump lol.
 

DarkShadowRage

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Yeah I disabled the control stick for jumping I still do it sub conciously...i end up pushing up, when it's disabled.

I use X For jumping Y for grabbing.
 

BANSHI

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they should of made x regular jump and y short hop

but i just press y softly, i can do it when i want about 90% of the time
 

bamboojungles

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Yeah I just started trying to short hop yesterday and it's a lot harder then it seems. I can get it right for the most part in training. (Flick my right thumb nail from Y then right onto b). The idea is to press it fast and let go fast. I got it down pat in training... now for real opponents :-/
 

Tristan_win

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Is Zamus short hop really that hard? Because it feels like Melee Falco easy to me.

Anyways you said you can short hop when you’re alone, right? Well what exactly do you do when you practice short hopping?

Do you just short hop around or do you actually do something afterwards? The reason I ask this is because something as important as short hopping even for Zamus must become second nature to you which means you shouldn't even have to think about it to do it.

Next time you go into training or even the waiting room SH Uair then go into a dash upon landing and repeat. Putting special impotents on the dash as it resets your fingers positions

After a few minutes practicing this you will start to notice the pattern of sounds your character and control make on completion and you will also start to be able to feel when your finger incorrectly press the buttons.

Master this and you will most definitely have no more troubles short hopping in matches.
 

Ghost Slime

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It'll become second nature if you keep practicing. As hopeless as it seems, you'll be able to use it against people without thinking if you just keep practicing.
 

-Aether

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* Laughs at the thought of competetive Brawl with this post *

So many new players can't do the simplist things. Short Hopping is even easier than it was in melee, and by a decent amount!

Move those fat fingers faster!
 

DarkShadowRage

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Is Zamus short hop really that hard? Because it feels like Melee Falco easy to me.

Anyways you said you can short hop when you’re alone, right? Well what exactly do you do when you practice short hopping?

Do you just short hop around or do you actually do something afterwards? The reason I ask this is because something as important as short hopping even for Zamus must become second nature to you which means you shouldn't even have to think about it to do it.

Next time you go into training or even the waiting room SH Uair then go into a dash upon landing and repeat. Putting special impotents on the dash as it resets your fingers positions

After a few minutes practicing this you will start to notice the pattern of sounds your character and control make on completion and you will also start to be able to feel when your finger incorrectly press the buttons.

Master this and you will most definitely have no more troubles short hopping in matches.

Well when I do it in training I can do SHBair's Fair's and all that good stuff, I guess in battle I really hesitiate..I never really masterd it in Melee because I didn't care about "Advanced techs" as I had no one to play with.


* Laughs at the thought of competetive Brawl with this post *

So many new players can't do the simplist things. Short Hopping is even easier than it was in melee, and by a decent amount!

Move those fat fingers faster!
I'm not a NEW player i've been playing since Smash64 and I don't know what the hell you are getting at, I can play competetive with out Melee's bloody lame depth don't turn this into that kind of arguement.
 

DarkShadowRage

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Well i've been testing it in training mode, on Lylat Cruise against ganondorf (Who short hop fairs like a mad man) I seem to be getting the hang of it a little bit, still getting hit out of it but i'll work around it some how.

I believe my problem is I was using the C-stick for the kicks.
 

Garde

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Honestly, if you practice SHing with Fox in Melee, you'll be able to SH with ANYONE in Melee and Brawl. The reason for this is because SHing is done by releasing the jump button before you actually jump off the ground. Since Fox, Sheik, and Samus have the fastest jump in Melee, if you could SH with them then you could SH easily with anyone else because the timing for them is the most strict (and all other SHs timing overlaps theirs meaning you don't have to relearn timing it for each character).

As much as you might not want to put Melee in and practice it, it is the most effective (and quickest) way of mastering it.

As for using the C-stick for attacks, I use both A and the C-stick for air attacks, and I also short hop side+B. It shouldn't matter which button you press when you're SHing, you should be able to press any button after it without having to worry about doing a full jump (because the any button is pressed after the SH).
 

DarkShadowRage

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Honestly, if you practice SHing with Fox in Melee, you'll be able to SH with ANYONE in Melee and Brawl. The reason for this is because SHing is done by releasing the jump button before you actually jump off the ground. Since Fox, Sheik, and Samus have the fastest jump in Melee, if you could SH with them then you could SH easily with anyone else because the timing for them is the most strict (and all other SHs timing overlaps theirs meaning you don't have to relearn timing it for each character).

As much as you might not want to put Melee in and practice it, it is the most effective (and quickest) way of mastering it.

As for using the C-stick for attacks, I use both A and the C-stick for air attacks, and I also short hop side+B. It shouldn't matter which button you press when you're SHing, you should be able to press any button after it without having to worry about doing a full jump (because the any button is pressed after the SH).
Well I seem to have better control of it now, I've been doing SH bairs like nothing now, I think I got the hang of it because I can control it.

I use C-stick for attacking all the time alot, for quick smash attacks it just didn't work for me when I tried to do SH-Bairs or what not with it, it always made me screw up but when I use normal A I have much more control over it.
 

Doval

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If you still haven't mastered it fully, do it the Melee Fox way. There's no better way.

And learn to get used to the C-Stick, because C-Stick gives you far greater control when using aerials. This goes for all characters.
 

DarkShadowRage

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If you still haven't mastered it fully, do it the Melee Fox way. There's no better way.

And learn to get used to the C-Stick, because C-Stick gives you far greater control when using aerials. This goes for all characters.
Oh I know how to use the C-stick I just never could control it before as I went too high.
 

DarkShadowRage

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For the last god****ed time I'M NOT GOING TO PLAY MELEE I'll learn here if I have too i'm already getting the hang of it, quit suggesting Melee
 

Ares And Enyo

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geeze calm down dude ...

did you or did you not start a thread asking for help from ex-melee players (mostly) ... what did u expect?
 

DarkShadowRage

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geeze calm down dude ...

did you or did you not start a thread asking for help from ex-melee players (mostly) ... what did u expect?
I never asked for an ex-melee players help I was asking for help in general, on what I was doing wrong, I'd rather learn it in Brawls physics rather than Melee's. and i'd rather learn it for ZSS because she has a high jump already. I will practice it with the character that I main and continue to improve with.
 

Ares And Enyo

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ok w/e man but if you are going to be asking for help I think you should chill out when people suggest learning how to do something on melee because well most people here learned melee and see how learning a few thing from melee (short hopping has not been affect by the change in physics) can be to both game's benefit and if you had wanted to know a character in melee that had short hops similar to ZS you could have learned on link - there was no reason to be like that

Beggers can't be choosers and should be greatful for what they are given .... geeze man wtf
 

Garde

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Shadow, most of us are ex-Melee players. In fact, most of the people that are good at Brawl ARE ex-Melee players because they have insight into how high level play works and often times use strategies normal players wouldn't think of based on their insight. You know all the advice I gave you against Light? That was all based off of Melee experience and all of the elements of competitive play in both Melee, Brawl, and in most competitive fighting games.

As for Short Hopping, you seem to have some misconception about it. Short Hopping is a universal skill that is unchanged between Melee and Brawl (aside from the fact that you have MORE time to do it in Brawl). Why do you think so many people can SH without any trouble and you've been struggling the past few days? Most of us learned it a long time ago by the Fox method we've suggested, which is why we RARELY screw it up, regardless of what button we push afterwards. Short Hops are not something character specific, at all. The only thing specific to a character is how many frames they stay on the ground before jumping, and the fewer frames you have to work with, the faster you need to release the jump button. Since Fox/Sheik/Samus have something like a 2-3 frame jump in Melee, theirs is INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off in comparison to any other character, and the next closest SH is like 4-5 frames. Those frames start the instant you push the jump button, so having a 2-3 frame jump means you have 1/30-1/20 of a second to release the button, whereas the 4-5 frame jumps have 1/15-1/12 of a second to release the button (are you seeing the picture?). Practicing SHs on a different character doesn't make you worse at SHing with your main, it makes it so you'll be able to get the SH consistently since you're used to dealing with a much stricter window to SH. It's sort of like having to run a mile in 5 minutes every day, and all of a sudden the requirement is lessened to running it in 10 minutes, it'll be a piece of cake because you've been running it twice as fast under the old requirements (you could jog and still make it in the time without breaking a sweat). Does this make sense?

I don't know what your problem with Melee is, but we've been trying to tell you (with a lot of experience in both Brawl's and Melee's engines) that if you can SH in Melee with Fox consistently, you can SH with ANYONE in Melee AND Brawl. I've been trying to tell you it just takes practice, and that practice is finally showing its results for you, but you seemed interested in mastering it faster than the rate you had been, and the fastest way (AND most effective) is practicing with Fox/Sheik/Samus in Melee (not to mention Zamus's jump and SH are identical in height Sheik's and Samus's). You don't have to use the method, no one is forcing you to. Just don't get angry at us when we're actually giving you good advice and you just don't want to use the method.
 

spacemanspiff

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...No I'd rather not.
I'm sick of Melee, i'd rather learn how to short hop better with my main thanks.
he said that cuz Fox was one of the hardest to short hop with in melee. Pikachu was actually the hardest. and brawl short hopping is easier to do. so if you can short hop in melee you can do it in brawl to. and about how to do it... i just use x like i do for full jumps... it just takes a bit of practice since were all used to mashing buttons lol
 

DarkShadowRage

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Shadow, most of us are ex-Melee players. In fact, most of the people that are good at Brawl ARE ex-Melee players because they have insight into how high level play works and often times use strategies normal players wouldn't think of based on their insight. You know all the advice I gave you against Light? That was all based off of Melee experience and all of the elements of competitive play in both Melee, Brawl, and in most competitive fighting games.

As for Short Hopping, you seem to have some misconception about it. Short Hopping is a universal skill that is unchanged between Melee and Brawl (aside from the fact that you have MORE time to do it in Brawl). Why do you think so many people can SH without any trouble and you've been struggling the past few days? Most of us learned it a long time ago by the Fox method we've suggested, which is why we RARELY screw it up, regardless of what button we push afterwards. Short Hops are not something character specific, at all. The only thing specific to a character is how many frames they stay on the ground before jumping, and the fewer frames you have to work with, the faster you need to release the jump button. Since Fox/Sheik/Samus have something like a 2-3 frame jump in Melee, theirs is INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off in comparison to any other character, and the next closest SH is like 4-5 frames. Those frames start the instant you push the jump button, so having a 2-3 frame jump means you have 1/30-1/20 of a second to release the button, whereas the 4-5 frame jumps have 1/15-1/12 of a second to release the button (are you seeing the picture?). Practicing SHs on a different character doesn't make you worse at SHing with your main, it makes it so you'll be able to get the SH consistently since you're used to dealing with a much stricter window to SH. It's sort of like having to run a mile in 5 minutes every day, and all of a sudden the requirement is lessened to running it in 10 minutes, it'll be a piece of cake because you've been running it twice as fast under the old requirements (you could jog and still make it in the time without breaking a sweat). Does this make sense?

I don't know what your problem with Melee is, but we've been trying to tell you (with a lot of experience in both Brawl's and Melee's engines) that if you can SH in Melee with Fox consistently, you can SH with ANYONE in Melee AND Brawl. I've been trying to tell you it just takes practice, and that practice is finally showing its results for you, but you seemed interested in mastering it faster than the rate you had been, and the fastest way (AND most effective) is practicing with Fox/Sheik/Samus in Melee (not to mention Zamus's jump and SH are identical in height Sheik's and Samus's). You don't have to use the method, no one is forcing you to. Just don't get angry at us when we're actually giving you good advice and you just don't want to use the method.
It's not that I have any thing against Melee, it's just that i'm sick of playing Melee after so long, I don't really want to go back to it to learn how to short hop if it's the same in brawl what's the difference? I'm sorry for getting all hot headed..i'm just too used to brawl to switch back to melee to learn one tech when i could learn it in brawl, and plus I can't read "Frame Data' so that makes no sense to me what so ever =/
 

WhiteWingDemon

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geeze calm down dude ...

did you or did you not start a thread asking for help from ex-melee players (mostly) ... what did u expect?
Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I do wish to interject something. DSR asked for help, Melee was suggested, DSR stated he didn't want to use melee, melee was suggested again, and again, and again, and again. Maybe people didn't read the previous posts, maybe they were just being ignorant. I don't know. I do know that I would be annoyed if the same thing was brought up several times after I rejected it.

Secondly, I'm guessing since your all ex-melee players and by your posts, you won't have any non melee. I'll throw out my question anyway: What would you suggest to the player that doesn't own melee? I went straight from SSB to SSBB (Yes I was actually playing it even up to the release of Brawl).
 

Garde

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Frame data isn't too hard to read, and while most people can't tell which frames are which, it helps knowing how many frames certain things take (like a jump, a grab, etc.) so you can tell whether or not it's fast or slow and how you can account for it.

All frames really are is a measurement of time. 1 frame is approximately 1/60 of a second (there are 59.94 frames displayed on a television/monitor per second in NTSC games which are pretty much everything in Japan and the US/Canada). So basically all I was trying to say was that if you practice SHing with someone who has the fastest jump (the smallest window of time to actually perform it), then it will carry over to any other character since you will always pull your finger off the button with plenty of time before the character actually jumps off the ground. With a 2-3 frame jump, you need to release the button in less than 2/60 to 3/60 of a second after you push it. With a 4-5 frame jump, you need to release the button in less than 4/60 to 5/60 of a second after you push it. So if you're used to SHing and releasing the button within 2-3 frames of pushing it, you will always have at least 1/60 of a second of leeway (usually more like 2/60 to 5/60 spare time) so you won't have to worry about accidentally holding the button down for too long and getting a normal jump.

In my humble opinion, it's better to practice something with the least amount of leeway possible so you become very accurate with it at its most difficult point, so that when you're in a match and things are distracting/bothering you, you can afford to press it a bit slower (on accident) without it affecting your SHing because you're so used to having to press and release it much faster than is necessary.

Accuracy of execution in fighting games is always easier in training mode than against a live opponent because there's no stress or pressure on you to get it right when an opponent isn't breathing down your neck, waiting for you to make a mistake. The Fox method is useful for drilling in the strictest of timing so when you do make a mistake, it doesn't affect you (or is at least far less likely to).

Then again, I have a bad habit of perfecting execution (or at least attempting to perfect it), but to each his own. Some people only settle for being consistent most of the time, while I train myself for being consistent all of the time. Whichever suits you best, follow that path.

I like knowing that my execution isn't the problem when I lose a match, and that I can spend time analyzing faults in my mind games and strategies instead of "oh, I would've won if I hadn't accidentally used X instead of Y," because those are the most frustrating losses, imho.
 

Garde

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White Wing Demon, for someone that doesn't have the option of practicing in Melee, I would recommend using the character with the fastest jump, or the character you have the most difficulty SHing consistently with (which is the character with the fastest jump). Since frame data for characters' jumps isn't out for Brawl yet, we don't know exactly who has the fastest jump, but I'm guessing it's either Fox or Sheik.
 

Tristan_win

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Garde I believe you’re the first person I've seen in a long time who can be completely excused from double posting

Nice advice and an easy to read explanation on frame data to boot.

I would and I bet many others would enjoy your company if you decide to post more often in the future.
 

DarkShadowRage

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Garde does indeed offer supurb advice, I love reading what he has to say, it's I feel kinda pressured to have to go to Melee to learn short hopping..I mean I know no one is forcing me, it's just i'm waaaaaay to used to Brawl, and I've been just trying to get better and better..everytime.. on my own instead of having to resort to melee, just..yeah I don't know X_X
 

wakka444

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Frustration is the worst thing to let happen bc that makes everything worse with smash games, but seriously if you can connectively short up with fox there would nvr be a shorthop you cant do, I got it from shl with falco, and the whole main thing, variety variety once you re doing it, characters don't matter.

And you'll miss short hops but make whatever you can from it, know what your flaws are and know how to adapt them if you do them bc you need to avoid predictability already as is. If you let it make you angry bc you pressed the jump button too hard then you'll get punished hard bc of it. Finally a forewarning shorthopping wont make you win but rather open that many more doors of what you can do and more things make things harder than just shorthopping

I don't doubt your knowledge of all this I'm just presenting it on a nice forum for you to consider, peace
 

Purenchisu

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im main Zamus also the easiest way to lear how to short hop is go 2 training mode nd set the speed 2 the fastest speed their is and just pratice . it might sound like alot of work but its worth it TRUST ME
 

Purenchisu

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just go 2 practice nd put cpu on 1 so that it follows you around but dosent really hit you so you can get the feeling of being under pressure ..trust me it helps
 

Doval

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Garde does indeed offer supurb advice, I love reading what he has to say, it's I feel kinda pressured to have to go to Melee to learn short hopping..I mean I know no one is forcing me, it's just i'm waaaaaay to used to Brawl, and I've been just trying to get better and better..everytime.. on my own instead of having to resort to melee, just..yeah I don't know X_X
So basically you don't want to use Melee because...no reason. What does "resorting to Melee" have to do with improving on your own? And what's the problem with learning it in Melee? It's been mentioned multiple times that short-hopping is purely a matter of timing, so if you learn to do it with the strictest timings then you can do it under all conditions. Learning to do it in Melee isn't going to change how you play Brawl in the least.
 

DarkShadowRage

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So basically you don't want to use Melee because...no reason. What does "resorting to Melee" have to do with improving on your own? And what's the problem with learning it in Melee? It's been mentioned multiple times that short-hopping is purely a matter of timing, so if you learn to do it with the strictest timings then you can do it under all conditions. Learning to do it in Melee isn't going to change how you play Brawl in the least.
Like I said, I'm just way to used to Brawl to head back to Melee, my control scheme won't be the same. Also I Haven't removed my Brawl disc from my Wii since I bought the game..I don't plan on removing it either I might as well drag my gamecube back in my room from the main room but still... >_< I'm just to used to it.

im main Zamus also the easiest way to lear how to short hop is go 2 training mode nd set the speed 2 the fastest speed their is and just pratice . it might sound like alot of work but its worth it TRUST ME

I guess that could work because it will force me to jump shorter when I go too high
 

fkacyan

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Shorthopping with Zamus is almost useless anyways. SH->Bair goes above most character's heads, and fastfalling it doesn't help at all.

Maybe a SHFF Nair, but... Eh, I just find her shorthop lackluster.
 

DarkShadowRage

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Well it's nice to know how to do anyways right? besides that speed method is really helping actually cranking it up to high speed and having the fox CPU set to run, while I try to short hop kick him then after a while switch to normal speed and see how it works, i'm already seeing great results.
 

DarkShadowRage

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I think my short hops are REALLY improving now, I am able to do it much easier now after using the fast speed setting as suggested, I don't jump so high anymore and I can REALLy control it now, I have KO'd this level 9 CPU ganon so many times now where they normally have the lead. Of course CPU training doesnt make me any better at fighting people but it helped me learn short hopping better.
 
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