Shiny's Mario Mafia - Game Over! Town + FireEmbleminer Victory!

[#HBC | Kary]

Soup convinced people he was town by quitting. THAT'S what I'm annoyed at. That's the greater issue. Not that he quit and was allowed to stay. That he proved himself to town by saying he was quitting, and then he was allowed to renege on that.

We can't know for sure how drastically this affected the game. But Kary, at least, was suspicious of Soup. Her announcement made that clear. Soup may have been lynched that day. Even if he wasn't, if people were suspicious of him, they may have made attempts to prevent his night action. It's all maybes and what ifs, but ultimately, by quitting, none of that was ever going to happen now. It was effectively a get out of jail free card.

The mafia was put at a disadvantage because a town player wanted out.

lol do you mean dark horse's announcement? I thought soup was town from Day 1. I realize that all dgamers probably look the same to you, but please.

 

[BarDulL]

See, I'm now disappointed that you were told the correct "clean" result, and I certainly hope Uni was told, too, since he also did not have a clean result. It wasn't as important for the mafia, since we had Godfather Mario, but every time a mod gives one player an advantage like that, they need to tell, at the bare minimum, every other player that would equally benefit from that knowledge.

Oh yes, that's a good point, I hadn't carefully checked the Mario role pm.

In that case it would not break the game, but the indies were put at an additional disadvantage if the question had ever been asked.

 

[Natz~]

lol do you mean dark horse's announcement? I thought soup was town from Day 1. I realize that all dgamers probably look the same to you, but please.

not our fault most of ya run the #HBC tag :V kinda makes things blend especially the smaller names

 

[#HBC | Kary]

not our fault most of ya run the #HBC tag :V kinda makes things blend especially the smaller names

I don't have anything nice to say to that.

 

[BarDulL]

I voiced my opinion earlier regarding Vaan's point about people town reading soup via the replacement move; I more or less said that Dark Horse was the only person visibly on Soup. I do not believe there was any other visible pressure on Soup at the time; Nabe seemed to be "slurping his soup" regardless, and other slots seemed to be apathetic towards the case.

Maybe #HBC | Dark Horse can give an opinion on it?

 

[Natz~]

I don't have anything nice to say to that.

-shrugs- sorry

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I've seen mafia rage quit before I was absolutely not going to town read him for doing that. I really don't see why people would automatically assume someone's town for rage quitting.

The reason why I started townreading him opens up the very different can of worms of "soup posted in my pm convo with him during the day because he didn't know how night pms work." I was really surprised the mods seemingly never brought this up to at least discusss with spectators, there's a case for it being a modkill.

 

[BarDulL]

The reason why I started townreading him opens up the very different can of worms of "soup posted in my pm convo with him during the day because he didn't know how night pms work." I was really surprised the mods seemingly never brought this up to at least discusss with spectators, there's a very god case for it being a modkill.

Just saw what you posted in the conversation.

I agree that it's a good idea to outline the rules a bit more carefully. Surprised he wasn't penalized for it.

 

[vaanrose]

I voiced my opinion earlier regarding Vaan's point about people town reading soup via the replacement move; I more or less said that Dark Horse was the only person visibly on Soup. I do not believe there was any other visible pressure on Soup at the time; Nabe seemed to be "slurping his soup" regardless, and other slots seemed to be apathetic towards the case.

Maybe #HBC | Dark Horse can give an opinion on it?

This is, specifically, the post I was referring to.

Not to drown in metagame, but this feels normal enough for Soup. Read could go either way, but Soup seeing a PGO and thinking "gosh this game is unbalanced", and being a lot more into his other mafia game... that sounds like town Soup.

Let mods worry about replacement, and let's keep going.

I can't know how many people were convinced he was town because of this, but it's a clear argument for why Soup quitting=Soup town. Maybe it changed absolutely zero people's opinion on him, but the idea was still brought up in-game that his mere attempt to quit makes him sound like town.

 

[Maven89]

Nah Soup has rage quitted as mafia too

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Like I said in the quote even, Soup quitting was null, not town. The rest was just fluff from me to fill in content. And I only said it to begin with to calm the NZoners and keep momentum going in the thread. I just figured things would stall out if we kept focusing on Soup and on negativity.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I had full intention to replace, I just happened to stay into the slot because there was nobody else willing

It wasn't some calculated masterstroke to get people to townread me

 

[BarDulL]

The general consensus seems to be: Soup was being town read on D1, opting to replace was not necessarily indicative of alignment. Nabe trying to turn people away from Soup was not an authentic change of reads per se as a result of the replacement request. This is not an argument that should be used to determine whether or not someone should be host-killed.

Obviously, PM'ing DH during the day is not so great, which should have been penalized. It actually probably deserved a host-kill because it granted the receiving player (Dark Horse) a glimpse into highly pertinent information that would have otherwise not been available had the rules been followed; the information was very much not immaterial.

Anyway, I think the most important thing to consider is standard game balance philosophy.

The reason why host-killing should be an absolute last resort is because, generally, Mafia games are designed to allow the Town to have at least 3 mislynches before they can feasibly lose. This is akin to Smash Bros with designated stock counts; Melee has 4, Smash for Wii U has 2 stocks, and so on. The reason people have decided that 3 mislynches is a good number largely can be attributed to what they feel is the most fair test of skill in a match within a reasonable time frame. So far, this has been the prevailing sentiment on the largest mafia sites.

That said, if you host-kill someone, this can drastically affect game balance. Host-killing even one person can, and usually does, bring LyLo and MyLo one day phase closer, which also means one less mislynch opportunity for the Town.

So, in short, unless a host-kill is absolutely warranted, they shouldn't be handed out nonchalantly.

Of course, it's up to the hosts to make these types of decisions, but that's my firm recommendation.

 

[Natz~]

take a look at our games and we don't have proper balance :V

thats still one thing we'll have to forever work on

though ya do agree the mis-lynch buffer very, but at the same time were experimental and madness group, thats what we prefer

my point stands is soups behavior and what he opted out for deserved a host kill in my personal opinion, and him breaking the rules (and it only coming out after the game which puts a red flag on him, darkhorse, and the hosts all togther) only cemented it more, its really not a meaning for gaem balance but example and matter of principal, some thigns just have to happen

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I literally did what is procedural for slots that are going to be replaced. State your reasoning and then do your best to give a final good impression for the slot replacing you. I don't understand what's hard to understand about this or why it gave Mafia a disadvantage, it was purely NAI and if you felt that it wasn't then it's just confirmation bias at this rate. At no point should you have been TRing me for it and if you felt people did you weren't paying enough attention. Regardless, I sorta confirmed myself by shooting Yellowlord the next night. It all just happened to work out in town's favor based on a setup that heavily favored it in the first place lol

 

[vaanrose]

It sounds like the argument here boils down to "his actions had no provable effect on people." But even if we could prove that one way or the other, it's not really the point. Natz and Spak weren't able to use their early night results effectively to accomplish anything either, but it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong for them to get that information.

The other argument is that host-killing Soup would hurt the town by putting them one day closer to game-over. But in my opinion, if a town player quits, it should hurt the town. Under no circumstances should quitting ever be allowed even the possibility to benefit your team. You're choosing to abandon your team, and they'll have to face the repercussions of that.

So when deciding on how to move forward from this and put in place new rules about it, it's more important to consider if something can affect the game than if it did.

If we want to continue comparing it to Smash Bros, a stage gets banned if people can camp on it. It's not allowed to stay in play and then have it decided after the match is over if either player abused it. The possibility for it to get abused in the first place is removed.

Quitting and then not being removed clearly has the potential to effect the game. So future games should put rules in place to prevent it from happening.

In our games, we haven't used replacements, but whether a host allows them from now on is at their discretion. Even in your games, though, it appears that when there are replacements, they're listed in the OP so other players know they're waiting. So from this point on, if you want to quit, it's up to you to see if there's a player waiting to replace you, and if there isn't one, asking to be replaced anyway is tantamount to quitting and you should be removed from the game as a result.

Now whether replacements should even exist in the first place, however, that's a different discussion altogether, and one I would be interested in having, because I'm not terribly fond of the idea.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

For what it's worth soup's decision to keep playing after seeing that there aren't replacements isn't how it usually goes. The vast majority of times when people request replacements, if the mod is unable to find one than they usually get straight up modkilled since the player is frequently not going to keep playing. The only reason that didn't happen here was because soup changed his mind and decided to keep playing before the mod made a more permanent decision.

Also @natz when it comes to balancing setups, one thing that can really help is if you have setups review by people that you know are pretty solid at designing and balancing setups. Having a second opinion on your setup can let you catch stuff that you would have missed if there was only one person looking over the setup

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Also I feel people are reading quitting the game as a town tell (which they shouldn't) then they're just going to get burned if there in a game where mafia quits.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Like I once hosted a game where an Indy got so mad at his situation he outed himself as an Indy abductor because he didn't want to keep playing. What soup did didn't come close to that.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Sometimes, situations necessitate that a player really does have to get out of a game that they thought they had time for. Emergent new gameplay in real life, for example. Or (this happens often, including in this game) when a player inadvertently learns information about another slot in the game that they shouldn't have.

In either situation, rather than ruining a faction's chances and ruining a setup that a mod has waited months to run, it seems extremely clear and straightforward, and it has always been the rule in DG, that the affected slot should be replaced.

I've replaced into 30 games (conservative estimate), more than anybody else on the forum probably, and I've often had a more enjoyable time playing those games. But sometimes it's also a situation where the replaced slot was already on the chopping block, and replacing in is moreso a courtesy to keep discussion going rather than shutting it down with a modkill. I actually came to AiB and then to Smashboards specifically because I was asked by friends to sub into Mafia games. I don't play Smash.

Now, granted, Soup didn't have an emergency, he just wanted out. But that still shouldn't garner a modkill and disrupt (in a game this size) 20 peoples' game. Typically we ask players to make it very clear that they want out, and because he didn't do that, the mods should have followed up with him. Granted, the Day length is short enough to make doing that and then finding a replacement tricky, given the amount of time.

The DH situation was more nuanced, but when it has happened in the past, it has always resulted in a single or double replacement depending on if information went in one direction or both directions. Again, preserving the game is a lot more important than making some sort of weird example of players. It is a very rare case that I'd opt for a modkill over a forced replace, and I can't even think of a reason to do so aside from the inability to track down a replacement (or posting your PM to multiple people, thanks DH).

 

[vaanrose]

Sometimes, situations necessitate that a player really does have to get out of a game that they thought they had time for. Emergent new gameplay in real life, for example. Or (this happens often, including in this game) when a player inadvertently learns information about another slot in the game that they shouldn't have.

In either situation, rather than ruining a faction's chances and ruining a setup that a mod has waited months to run, it seems extremely clear and straightforward, and it has always been the rule in DG, that the affected slot should be replaced.

I've replaced into 30 games (conservative estimate), more than anybody else on the forum probably, and I've often had a more enjoyable time playing those games. But sometimes it's also a situation where the replaced slot was already on the chopping block, and replacing in is moreso a courtesy to keep discussion going rather than shutting it down with a modkill. I actually came to AiB and then to Smashboards specifically because I was asked by friends to sub into Mafia games. I don't play Smash.

Now, granted, Soup didn't have an emergency, he just wanted out. But that still shouldn't garner a modkill and disrupt (in a game this size) 20 peoples' game. Typically we ask players to make it very clear that they want out, and because he didn't do that, the mods should have followed up with him. Granted, the Day length is short enough to make doing that and then finding a replacement tricky, given the amount of time.

The DH situation was more nuanced, but when it has happened in the past, it has always resulted in a single or double replacement depending on if information went in one direction or both directions. Again, preserving the game is a lot more important than making some sort of weird example of players. It is a very rare case that I'd opt for a modkill over a forced replace, and I can't even think of a reason to do so aside from the inability to track down a replacement (or posting your PM to multiple people, thanks DH).

These are all salient points, and I have not played games with replacements other than the Gorf's, so I am speaking from a place with less experience to them. But I feel like so much of this game is just talking with people, and no two people will play the same way. Swapping out players mid-game completely changes all the dynamics you might have had with people, and I feel like that makes it harder to draw conclusions.

There's also the very real logistics question of if the NZone style night-PM games is even technically feasible for a subbed in player to catch up on. In a game with just a day thread, they can read it and try to bring themselves up to date. But the way we do it, they'd have a bunch of PM conversations they aren't privvy to that the slot should be, and even if you invite them to all of them, any sense of chronology is out the window. I'm usually talking to five or six people at a time at night, and those conversations affect each other. If you were to read each PM one right after the other you wouldn't really be able to get the full picture, imo.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

imo just ban all discussion of subs (including from the replacee) and have the replacee communicate privately with the mod to get out of the game. they do this **** on mu all the time and it works fine

 

[#HBC | Kary]

imo just ban all discussion of subs (including from the replacee) and have the replacee communicate privately with the mod to get out of the game. they do this **** on mu all the time and it works fine

you know when you say it like that it sounds obvious, eh.

 

[Pokechu]

Wait this is really funny because I tried this with Kary. I told her the jailer had claimed to me and that he targeted DJ N1. When I said I couldn't tell her who he was she was just like "Aight so you're the jailer"

i did it to kary too!!!

N1 I told her I was in contact with an enabler and if she would benefit from it, she told me that it didn't matter because night actions could always end up redirected/blocked and the next night I told her, "what if the enabler prevents redirecting?", and she was just like "are you still pretending you're not the enabler"

i didn't think it was that obvious :'^)

 

[Maven89]

So I don’t think the Soup thing changed the outcome of the game, what really sunk the mafia was Coricus stating that Vaan was the one complaining about the game, which gave away that they were a team, while Vaan and Swamp had earlier built up a connection between them, even if Vaan had not been copped this would have doomed the entire mafia team

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Yeah that coricus scumslip was huge. I wouldn't have been surprised if cori lasted for at least a day or two without it.

I also think swamp was screwed as soon as he admitted that he used his action on yellow N1.