Shieldstun Frame Data (WIP) - Dair - FTilt/Jab1 tomorrow

[Kinzer]

I hope Phil won't mind me making this placeholder here. As long as I post something now it should be fine, right?

I also acknowledge that multiple people are probably working on a similar project like this on their own, so if we can put our heads together, that could go swell. I also hope that nobody minds that I made this, I searched "shieldstun", got nothing; Looked up "frame", and nothing about this topic came up.

Please bare with me. At times, my spelling/grammar may be off, and I don't double-check too much, so if something looks off, please feel free to see me about whatever it is that seems "off", or if you have a question/concern about anything else... anything, just don't expect me to answer you when you ask something like "what's my favorite pizza topping." Also, I'll explain some things prior to the number crunches, and as I am doing this project, so it should be self-explanatory. Once again, if something seems off or just gets your attention, holler at me and I'll tend to you as soon as I can.

Don't expect me to go into detail into some things like where Lucario's Aura caps exactly. I don't know that stuff, but I would like to believe I know enough to be able to find this data. If something of that sort comes up, there's a whole sub-forum out there...

*Ahem* Enough with he disclaimer lecture, I believe some of you also like to cut to the chase.

I'm sure you're all very curious to learn about the extent of Lucario's power on shields. So am I.

First, for those who don't quite understand the concept: Shieldstun is a term for time spent in the shield due to being struck by an attack that hits your shield. Normally if you're not interrupted (and assuming you're not playing Yoshi), it takes you about 7 frames before you can drop you shield once it's been put up. If you form a shield and then drop it immediately, it takes you 15 frames in total. For Powershielding an attack (perfectly timing your shield to come up the frame a hitbox overlaps the shield), it takes you 5 frames to drop the shield, after which you can proceed to use any action you wish. Now I'm not going to be going over Powershield frame-data, obviously if you or an opponent happens to Powershield an attack at the right time, a lot of time is available for something to happen.

What I am going to be going over, is the advantage, or disadvantage, of Lucario when his attacks connect on a shield (and so forth). I'll be taking into consideration Aura at a couple of percentages; including when Lucario has a stock or two of lead, or being behind 1 or 2 stocks. I won't concern (or at least, not put heavy emphasis on studying) attacks that do not gain an aura boost, such as Dash Attack.

...Meh, those are far and few inbetween anyway. I assume everybody knows that Dash Attack for example is easily punished if it hits a shield anyway.

How will I format this? Well first I'm going to have Lucario attack a shield. Once the hitbox connects I'll have the opponent drop the shield, and then put up another one. I will then compare the time it takes for an opponent to do that, to how long it takes Lucario's attack to end, and put up a shield himself. Knowing that a shield comes up on frame 1 for everybody but Yoshi, we can use this to calculate how long an opponent has to counterattack Lucario (in the case of a disadvantage), or how much time Lucario has to initiate another attack on the character (assuming an advantage). I'm testing all of this with the Debug Pause Mode code hack... thingymajig... if this is not how I should do it, then I'm sorry for having wasted your time up to this point... if it is the correct method, than hurray, most if not all of the number crunches will be accurate! I'm telling you this so that my project can be imitated and if anybody else is doing such a thing, they can get the number crunches myself. credibility if you will.

...Sort of like a SCIENCE! Project.

Anyway, since Debug Pause had some weird controls, I had to work 3 controllers for 3 characters. Controller 1 was just the debug/"master" controller, controllers 2 and 3 were the "test subjects", or the controllers I worked to experiment with. I understand that in Free-For-Alls and teams that Aura boost via Stock works differently there than it does in singles, but please understand that Debug Pause made me find creative ways to work around its limitations. What I did was have the master controller and one test subject controller on a team, while the other test subject controller that was working Lucario who was on his own team. I believe for Lucario to be considered a stock behind, I had to make the master controller suicide, followed by Lucario, while I left the other test subject controller unchanged. I believe for Lucario to be considered two stocks behind, I have to make Lucario suicide once while I leave the master controller, and the other test subject controller untouched. To have Lucario in the lead, I had to make the master controller suicide twice, the other test subjective controller once, and then followed by Lucario, just once. For Lucario to have a 2-stock lead, I had to make the master controller and the other test subject controller suicide twice, and then just have Lucario suicide once.

If somebody can find me a better way to test this, that would be much appreciated. I would also like to know if I am doing it right this way, or just because Brawl is Brawl, I won't get the results I want, and will have to cut some corners in some plans.

How did I get Lucario to a named damage amount? Simple, handicap!

Without further adieu, the number crunches:

All attacks are assumed to be unstale, and will deal full knockback/damage.

Down Tilt:

I need to post some helpful information about this attack later. For now though, Down Tilt has the same numbers regardless of whether Lucario hits with the leg or the aura bubble.

[collapse="DTilt"]

[collapse="No Stock dis/advantage"]

[collapse="0%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -8

Aura hitbox disadvantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -6

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -6[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -6

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -6[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7/(-8?)

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: (-8?)

Okay, did I @#$% up something here? For one thing, how does Lucario get a bigger disadvantage when he has MORE Aura power? Second, I believe I am doing it right, I have the master controller suicide once, and then Lucario, and the handicap automatically puts him at 50% when he regains his stock, so... unless somebody wants to debunk this with some evidence behind it, these numbers are absolute...? I also remember somehow getting a 7-frame disadvantage, but when I came back and did some more testing, I got 8 frames of disadvantage... [/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -6

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -6[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: (-5?)/-6

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: (-5?)

Here we go again...[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -5

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -5[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -6

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -6[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -5

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -5[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -5

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -5[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -5

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -5[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -8

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: (-9?)

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: (-9?)

I'm not gonna ask...[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -8

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -8

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -8

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Foot hitbox dis/advantage: -7

Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -7[/collapse][/collapse][/collapse]

Up Tilt:

The hitbox connects depending on which way Lucario is facing, and how tall the opponent is.

Test dummy was Sonic.

Battlefield was also used to find the platform frame data. Lucario was directly under the test dummy when the numbers were generated.

"Descending foot" basically means data when the test tummy was right next to Lucario on the opposite side of which the hitbox comes out. Strangely enough, being so close to Lucario, the hitbox hit the shield at the same time rising foot hitbox did and thus generated the results you see below.

"Aura" refers to when UTilt was spaced as far as possible within a margin of error. For this, go ahead and take or give 1 or 2 frames.

UTilt's first hitbox comes at frame 5. Frame 6 is the furthest Lucario can hit his opponent on the rise. Frame 9 is when the hitbox is directly above Lucario. Frame 12 is the furthest Lucario will hit with UTilt on the descend. These are all figured drawn from the test dummy.

[collapse="UTilt"]

[collapse="No Stock dis/advantage"]

[collapse="0%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -20

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -19

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -19?

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -19?

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -14?

Platform dis/advantage: -17?

Again with the inconsistencies...[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -19

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -19

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -19

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -14

Platform dis/advantage: -17[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Wut wut?

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Up the butt?

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Yes sir...

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -16

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -11

Platform dis/advantage: -14[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -5

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -18

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -18

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -13

Platform dis/advantage: -16[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -17

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Rising foot hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Rising Aura hitbox dis/advantage: -17

Descending Foot dis/advantage: -16

Descending Aura dis/advantage: -12

Platform dis/advantage: -15[/collapse][/collapse][/collapse]

Aura Sphere:

Aura Sphere is an article separate from Lucario.

This means that when an opponent shields the Aura Sphere, they will be stuck in shieldstun while Lucario does not suffer any kind of lag aside from the start-up lag and the cooldown lag of firing/charging Aura Sphere.

Lucario takes 13 frames to charge Aura Sphere. Frame 14 is the soonest he can do an action (in this case, continue charging (until full), shield, roll, or release). The first active hitbox for any Aura Sphere is 6 from a release. I will only be going over the soonest frame Aura Sphere connects (right next to Lucario) If Aura Sphere hits a shield any later, and Lucario will have a greater advantage, or less of a disadvantage if applicable. Aura Sphere is active from frame 6 up to frame 70 upon release, regardless of Aura boost or the charge of the sphere.

It takes a grand total of a constant 35 frames for Lucario to have a chance to do anything after he fires an Aura Sphere.

This section will go over Baby Aura Sphere (14 frames of charge before it can be fired), and a fully charged Aura Sphere (98 frames of charge, including the time it takes to begin the charging animation).

I should take the time to note that after a certain stock/damage boost, the dummy would at times powershield or normal shield something that wasn't the projectile before frame 6 of release. It may be due to the shield extending it's person's hurtbox and although the dummy wouldn't overlap behind Lucario (and hit the aura sphere charge(?)), the shield would. Just letting anybody know in case they want to grab these number crunches themselves.

What I don't know for certain is, there's a hitbox on Aura Sphere after the charge release but before the projectile hitbox? Strange 1-5 frames those are...

FC = "Fully Charged."

[collapse="Aura Sphere"]

[collapse="No stock dis/advantage"]

[collapse="0%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -17

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -10[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -15

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -4[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -1[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -12

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +1.[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -15

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -8[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -15

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -5[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -1[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -11

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +3[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -11

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +6[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks down"]

[collapse="0%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -14

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -4[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +1[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -12

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +8[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -10

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +8[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -10

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: +8[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="One (1) Stock ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -17

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -11[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -17

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -9[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -15

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -4[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -3[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse="Two (2) Stocks ahead"]

[collapse="0%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -17

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -11[/collapse]

[collapse="50%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -17

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -10[/collapse]

[collapse="100%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -15

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -7[/collapse]

[collapse="150%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -4[/collapse]

[collapse="200%"]

Baby Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -13

FC Aura Sphere dis/advantage: -3[/collapse][/collapse][/collapse]

Down Air:

Aerial frame disadvantage refers to the soonest Lucario can act with another aerial, an airdodge, a jump, or one of his other B-moves.

Landing lag frame disadvantage refers to the latest Lucario can Dair before he lands and either buffers a DTilt or does nothing.

This section goes over the second hit. The first is not taken into consideration.

Dair

No Stock dis/advantage

0%

Aerial dis/advantage: -10

Landing lag dis/advantage: -3

50%

Aerial dis/advantage: -9

Landing lag dis/advantage: -2

100%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

150%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

200%

Aerial dis/advantage: -7

Landing lag dis/advantage: +1

One (1) Stock down

0%

Aerial dis/advantage: -9

Landing lag dis/advantage: -1

50%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

100%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

150%

Aerial dis/advantage: -7

Landing lag dis/advantage: +1

200%

Aerial dis/advantage: -7

Landing lag dis/advantage: +1

Two (2) Stocks down

0%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

50%

Aerial dis/advantage: -7

Landing lag dis/advantage: +1

100%

Aerial dis/advantage: -6

Landing lag dis/advantage: +2

150%

Aerial dis/advantage: -6

Landing lag dis/advantage: +2

200%

Aerial dis/advantage: -6

Landing lag dis/advantage: +2

One (1) Stock ahead

0%

Aerial dis/advantage: -10

Landing lag dis/advantage: -3

50%

Aerial dis/advantage: -9

Landing lag dis/advantage: -2

100%

Aerial dis/advantage: -10

Landing lag dis/advantage: -3

not even Dair is safe...

150%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

200%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

Two (2) Stocks ahead

0%

Aerial dis/advantage: -10

Landing lag dis/advantage: -3

50%

Aerial dis/advantage: -9

Landing lag dis/advantage: -1

100%

Aerial dis/advantage: -10

Landing lag dis/advantage: -3

From the clutches of inconsistency!

150%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

200%

Aerial dis/advantage: -8

Landing lag dis/advantage: +0

 

[Kinzer]

Changelog:

Aura Sphere collapsed.

Dair added.

Miscellaneous info added.

 

[Kinzer]

~Reserved~

May need this space too.

 

[culexus・wau]

Brilliant,

keep up the good work.

the only frame data jazz we're really missing is shieldstun and hitstun. :<

 

[Browny]

I suspect the shiledstun data is going to be directly related to the damage of the attack, which should make this process rather simple and far less time consuming.

Lets use 0% uncharged dsmash as an example, I think it does 10%. Say it gives you -18 frames of advantage and 182% (20% dsmash) gives -14. When you have to compensate for the fact that not all lucarios attacks have the same hitbox lingering effect, you are going to need to compare these as a %. So an increase of 22.2% in frame advantage as you reach the 2x damage multiplier. I suspect such a number will be the same for all attacks

This is just my theory... if you could test it that would be great :D You could check by comparing any 3 random attacks and finding this % value. If its the same, you could probably let it be the same for all attacks, check until you see any errors. I didnt use your numbers for dtilt since it doesnt make sense to me... I know its definitely the opposite with fsmash, it clearly becomes less punishable as Lucario is on higher %'s.

 

[iRJi]

Thank you very much. Phil can let you know that I am thinking you are my hero.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yes, this is quite appreciated really. Thanks Kinzer.

Tell me if you have any more questions, and also update me I guess when you find stuff (leave it on SWF, I'm pretty much AFK for the rest of Winter Break, so I won't be on AIM that much).

 

[Kinzer]

I suspect the shiledstun data is going to be directly related to the damage of the attack, which should make this process rather simple and far less time consuming.

Lets use 0% uncharged dsmash as an example, I think it does 10%. Say it gives you -18 frames of advantage and 182% (20% dsmash) gives -14. When you have to compensate for the fact that not all lucarios attacks have the same hitbox lingering effect, you are going to need to compare these as a %. So an increase of 22.2% in frame advantage as you reach the 2x damage multiplier. I suspect such a number will be the same for all attacks

This is just my theory... if you could test it that would be great :D You could check by comparing any 3 random attacks and finding this % value. If its the same, you could probably let it be the same for all attacks, check until you see any errors. I didnt use your numbers for dtilt since it doesnt make sense to me... I know its definitely the opposite with fsmash, it clearly becomes less punishable as Lucario is on higher %'s.

Well now that's not as exciting as slowing down the game and getting the hard numbers! :< Besides that, it's not so unrealistic to get to some percentages and stay at there for quite some time. Besides that, you have to assume that with mathematics formulas, things are consistent... THIS - IS - Sparta BRAWL!

Yes, this is quite appreciated really. Thanks Kinzer.

Tell me if you have any more questions, and also update me I guess when you find stuff (leave it on SWF, I'm pretty much AFK for the rest of Winter Break, so I won't be on AIM that much).

Fair enough. I just want you to take a look at this data and make sure that I'm right. I'm sure I won't have to bother you too much though, just when something doesn't seem to be right even though it's happening anyway... like how Lucario seems to be getting a bigger disadvantage despite being at a higher percentage. I'm not going to question it too much though, it happened. However being my curious nature, If there's a reason for something, I'd always like to know why.

I think I'll put up UTilt sometime tonight, after I get back from the weekly tourney here in Vegas.

Edit: My SD card is corrupted/bricked completely. I can't even retrieve the codes I had put in there, none of the textures, none of the songs, it won't load anything from the SD card. Sorry, but I can't work on this project unless I get a new SD card, which won't be happening anytime soon. Very sorry to disappoint any of you that wanted to follow me alongside, but bleh.

 

[culexus・wau]

if I send you 10$ to get a 2 gig SD at radioshack will you continue

paypal gogogogo

 

[infomon]

bump because Kinzer's feeling skanky

 

[D. Disciple]

ooohh it's updated.

 

[Luxor]

I suspect the shiledstun data is going to be directly related to the damage of the attack, which should make this process rather simple and far less time consuming.

Lets use 0% uncharged dsmash as an example, I think it does 10%. Say it gives you -18 frames of advantage and 182% (20% dsmash) gives -14. When you have to compensate for the fact that not all lucarios attacks have the same hitbox lingering effect, you are going to need to compare these as a %. So an increase of 22.2% in frame advantage as you reach the 2x damage multiplier. I suspect such a number will be the same for all attacks

This is just my theory... if you could test it that would be great :D You could check by comparing any 3 random attacks and finding this % value. If its the same, you could probably let it be the same for all attacks, check until you see any errors. I didnt use your numbers for dtilt since it doesnt make sense to me... I know its definitely the opposite with fsmash, it clearly becomes less punishable as Lucario is on higher %'s.

Shieldstun = Floor(Damage/3). Easy for unboosted attacks, should hold true for aura boosts too. Since the floor part erases any fractional numbers you should be good.

 

[Kinzer]

if I send you 10$ to get a 2 gig SD at radioshack will you continue

paypal gogogogo

There will be no need for that.

I finally got it fixed.

Well no actually it's been fixed for almost a @#$%ing year, I've just been super lazy up until now.

bump because Kinzer's feeling skanky

Too soon!

You bumped this too soon!

*Swat.*

ooohh it's updated.

Not quite. I stopped just before I got 60% of UTilt done. I got the munchies though, I'm going to eat, then finish it, hopefully before 10 PST, but worst case scenario is midnight.

Shieldstun = Floor(Damage/3). Easy for unboosted attacks, should hold true for aura boosts too. Since the floor part erases any fractional numbers you should be good.

Thanks for covering my ***.

Bump da whump. UTilt done.

I've also taken the liberty of collapsing the OP. Specific data should now not only be quicker to find, but easier as well. If any of the coding is off, you notice a typo, data is missing, misplaced, or added incorrectly, please let me know and I'll fix it as soon as I can figure out how to fix the coding.

 

[Kitamerby]

Stay the **** off my character, *******.

 

[Kinzer]

Stay the **** off my character, *******.

Do your worst, loser. Tomorrow, Jerry said he'd help me get dash attack, so that will save me 15-30 minutes with one attack out of two dozen or so I'm going to get no matter what you threaten me with.

Also, you haven't touched Lucario in months. I'm not scared of you, you're not good at this game and I encourage you to prove me otherwise.

 

[phi1ny3]

The callout.

Yeah DA, utilt, and usmash are all going to be super unsafe on block

 

[hichez50]

This is cool but im confused. Does the negative number mean its an advantage or disadvantage.

 

[Kinzer]

This is cool but im confused. Does the negative number mean its an advantage or disadvantage.

Your opponent has an advantage in the case that it's a negative number. You have an advantage in the case that it's a positive number. It's from Lucario's perspective.

Time to get crackin' on Aura Sphere *click click click click click click click click click click.*

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah, nearly no move in this game has advantage minus throws or moves that hit the opponent's hurtbox lol (ZSS might have some on dsmash, I don't think so though)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Kinzer, thanks so much for investigating this.

Just somethin' that might make life easier for ya though:
Lucario doesn't get an Aura boost until 21%.
Lucario's Aura is in the middle at 75%.
Aura caps at 170%.

It will be interesting to see how much of an (dis)advantage AS charge can give.

 

[phi1ny3]

^That too.

btw, PSA/OSA has all of Lucario's data recorded at 75%, for those interested in looking up basic data in there.

I might do a guide on how to read PSA/OSA specifically for Lucario as far as I know.

 

[Kinzer]

Kinzer, thanks so much for investigating this.

Just somethin' that might make life easier for ya though:
Lucario doesn't get an Aura boost until 21%.
Lucario's Aura is in the middle at 75%.
Aura caps at 170%.

It will be interesting to see how much of an (dis)advantage AS charge can give.

No problem.

I see.

Still, there may be some data that's different when Lucario hits with his body as opposed to aura. I'm sure you're more aware than I am that Lucario's Aura is laser priority while his body doesn't follow it (apparently it can clank from what I hear). Doesn't hurt to look I suppose, but that's all good to know.

P.S. I've got Aura Sphere done now, Only thing left for me to do is gather the data for when he's at a stock advantage, and collapse UTilt/AS. Finally, some green for you guys lol.

 

[phi1ny3]

Although by the same coin, MTI, certain moves have different caps as well.

 

[hichez50]

ahh the new colors make things easier to look at thanks.

 

[culexus・wau]

you should do jab :x

 

[Kinzer]

ahh the new colors make things easier to look at thanks.

"New?" I've been putting color coding since DTilt which was a year ago. O_o

you should do jab :x

Which one? There's only three of them.

For you though, I'll do the entirely of Lucario's Jab on...

Today's Tuesday, which is Dair... tomorrow is FTilt, Thursday was Fair, then...

Friday it is.

BTW if I haven't already said this, let me know if you find any inconsistencies in the collapse coding. I find it makes it much easier to find specific data, quicker.

 

[D. Disciple]

Should do all 3, but 1st and 2nd jab are very important.

 

[phi1ny3]

normally aerials are tricky (like I would also like nair to be tested), but since dair almost never FFs that should help ease calculation, and obv. fair is almost never FFd for the sake of practicality lol.

 

[Kinzer]

normally aerials are tricky (like I would also like nair to be tested), but since dair almost never FFs that should help ease calculation, and obv. fair is almost never FFd for the sake of practicality lol.

Wasn't it that to find the FAF of aerials you switch between constantly tapping up on the D-Pad, and the Jump button?

Also, i hadn't realized it was so late when I finally opened this up. I was helping set up a ruleset for a tourney here in Vegas on the 27th (after a long hiatus). I'll try to get back to this tomorrow, and see if I can get both Dair and FTilt in tomorrow.

 

[phi1ny3]

That too, but FF lag for aerials can also be a factor (as well as incomplete aerials for multihit attacks). Now that I think about it though, that's kinda manageable.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Yay AS data. Thanks, Kinzer.

Oh and if you don't mind would you mind doing some checks on the charging Aura Sphere?

Since we can shield cancel it... it might open up for some interesting options.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Why does his Dtilt become less safe on block with more aura randomly?

It's...weird to what normally happens.

 

[Kinzer]

Why does his Dtilt become less safe on block with more aura randomly?

It's...weird to what normally happens.

The only reason I haven't tried to figure out why there are certain inconsistencies with it is because in the grand scheme of things, DTilt is unsafe under any circumstances and for that it's not worth finding out why.

Plus I've talked with Kita about this too and he gets to the same "inconsistencies" so it must mean it's just there just because.

*Working on all variables for aerials.*

Phil, when you get a chance to read this, do you know if there is any difference with mashing Down on the D-Pad for Dair on landing, or does fastfalling not affect the landing lag of an aerial?

Right now, I'm just gathering numbers for when I hold all the way down on the D-Pad at the last millisecond. I'm updating this as I go.

Edit: Forgot to address MTI.

I gathered one quick figue of Aura Spher Charge at 200% with no stock boost/deboost. It was a -4 frame advantage. That is however gathered from Lucario dropping his first shield-cancel, then putting up a new one. Unless you Lucarios are familiar with some crazy abuse/glitch/bug/whatever that allows you to do a melee attack/turn-around grab directly from Aura Sphere charge, it doesn't look like you'll get anything from it.

If you still have doubts, I can grab the figures, or if I'm not right, tell me and I'll getc'ya that data you are apparently seeking.

 

[phi1ny3]

If I may say, isn't it's safety still relevant considering you have to grab the hurtbox, which if spaced can be avoided? Iirc even Marth's dtilt has -7 at most for his dtilt's advantage, and that thing is hard to grab when spaced right.

lol never mind

FF does account for lag iirc, at least for regular landings it does (I'm sure I saw somewhere it applies to aerials too, guess this is another question to ask smash lab )

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Thanks for checking, Kinzer. We can grab directly out of an Aura Sphere charge, so if our opponent is silly and DIs right in front of us, I was wondering if it was 100% safe to grab.

We could also cancel to a USmash, but that is probably way too slow.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario and inconsistencies, lol.

Max Aura = frame advantage for certain moves? Pretty cool.

 

[phi1ny3]

Better yet MTI, try ASC -> shield cancel -> dair/nair oos, since jumping oos ignores shield drop lag.

 

[D. Disciple]

done it already. Nair is safer than dair.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Oh hey I figured out something with AS charge.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258564

Every character's landing lag is 5 frames or worse. That actually gives us a single frame advantage if we force them to land if I read this right. If for some reason an opponent DIs in front of us with AS charge it is safe to grab them.

DAir giving a frame advantage on shield at max Aura? Heh, this is going to lead to some interesting mindgames.