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shield pressure (used to be zoning)

kown

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okay so emblem lord gave us a really goood idea about how should we deal with zoning, the ability to get in reach of pit without pit being able to use arrows and pit becoming out ranged with attacks....I also agree with him that this is one of pits biggest flaw.

discuss.
 

HolyCrusader

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I definetely agree characters like Marth and Mario have a zone of a range. But with Pit it is only close range battle where you can hit your opponent. Also his f-air has some range to it but because of the awful lag after the attack you are most likely going to be punished for it so I just stick to n-air and b-air. It seems to be either far away or close up with Pit there can't be any middle unless you shorten the distance with an Angelic Step or Wing Dash.
 

kown

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alrite so u reccomend using nair n bair... id do something similiar too. i ve been thinking that u need to be really patient when somones pressuring u to make a mistake.
 

Apollo317

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Mindgames are the best way to deal with zoning. For instance, I forward throw ROB at low percents. If I try to combo him, I'm going to get f-aired. So I jump towards to draw the f-air and then do a b-reversal which dodges the fair, then turn around and punish with a charged arrow. Do stuff like that.
 

Admiral Pit

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F-air and F-tilt are Pit's range, N-air and Side-B are his Shield-damagers, even though Side-B is very punishable.
Now that I see it, supposingly his Arrows are his range, but how will get through without em?
 
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I try to use wing lunging... If that doesn't work, I have do start Wingdashing.
Um...No.

But spacing with Pit is difficult. You can SH his Dair or Nair to zone in or away. Doing them correctly will leave pit lag less so you can jab or D-tilt (His fastest tit and moderately good range).

If you're trying to zone in on an aggressive opponent, SH with arrows. More than likely the opponent will try to roll and bait a D-smash or grab, so grab them first or SH Nair or Dair in between rolls.

Nair, Dair and Arrows are Pit's best zoning tools.
 

Admiral Pit

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I suck with D-air and N-air. F-air and arrows are my primary moves.
 

arm

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You know, its sad, I knew nothing about zoning before today. There really should have been a thread about this, among other things. Well, at least we have this now.
 

Khaos Blackdragon

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I usually just sidestep (sometimes a roll works also for me). Pit's sidestep moves him forward a bit so I usually follow up with a quick jab or smash. In response to your dodge your opponent will either roll away from you, which just restarts everything over, roll towards you, which can easily be solved by dsmash, grab, etc. or they can continue attacking which at that point all depends on the speed and priority of the attack. If you can perfect shield the attack, you should be ok. If not, then that is when you roll away right after the sidestep finishes. I often keep my finger glued to the R button so it usually works for me.
 

Admiral Pit

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I often get Shieldgrabbed by using a SHJ N-air considering my aggressive style. D-air isnt that effective against smaller chars, and I face plenty of Small ones, and recently, this wont work well on a Kirby or Olimar..
 

Emblem Lord

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If you are getting zoned Pit does have options, but they are all risky. Some are risky as hell and will get you murdered. Others are only slightly risky.

One of the best options is SH back and do an arrow. This allows you to reset your spacing and put pressure on your opponent.

There is also doing a safe roll. Safe roll is when you buffer roll after an opponent hits your shield. If Marth does a rising SH Fair and hits your shield you need to roll ASAP since yu can get away safely.

BUT...if Marth did a SHFF fair or a d-tilt you need to think fast and act cautiously. Those moves are frame-traps. This means that Marth recovers quickly from the attacks and he can react to pretty much anything you try. Against a higher level Marth, if you roll towards him you will be punished. If you roll away you MIGHT get away, but even if you did more then likely Marth will close the gap and reset the zoning game.

Most people who play Smash are not at the level that they can abuse a frame-trap. But if you ever hit the upper echelon of gameplay be prepared.

Anyway, the best thing to do is just mix it up in that scenario. Sometimes roll, sometimes spotdodge and sometimes, SH away. You are at disadvantage, but it's better then sitting in your shield and getting your shield poked through or getting grabbed.

You could also get risky and go for a dash grab/attack. This can be made more effective if you use instant dash attack, which is C-stick down as soon as you run. This is can be pretty surprising to an opponent. It's unsafe on block though, so be cautious.

Also correct if I'm wrong but doesn't Pit enter his full run animation almost instantly? If so he could dash to shield and block attack that an opponent would use to keep him pinned down. Then he could net a shield grab and shift the momentum of the fight.

I'll mess around with Pit some more and see what else I can come up with. Please experiment with my methods to test their effectiveness.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't think Pit is very effective if he tries to stay away from his opponent and just...spams.

Pit has an excellent shield pressure game - his uair, nair and forwardB can all break shields and heavily limit the enemies defense. So instead of avoiding zoning by retreating, it would be better to get close in...similar to Wario actually.

Getting close via Mindgames could be a good idea, since Pits mobility in the air is kinda...slow, or just use the arrows, when nothing else hits...it's fast enough anyways
 

Admiral Pit

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For some reason, I do remember doing SH arrows, but I actually moved towards my opponent rather than moving back, so I could quickly follow up with close-combat, even though I do get hurt sometimes for doing so, especially against them speed chars.
 

CorruptFate

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But it has high priority compaired to alot of attacks, so it can help against stopping some attacks, such as Samuses missle, doing this allows you to still have a hit box out, and it has less ending lag then say the mirrior shield would if you do it right. But ya you have better options then Nair for this job.
 
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^^

What he said. But DI'ing away from the opponent with Nair is pretty useful since the hitbox ends pretty late. The opponent will more than likely try to bait a shield grab so you can jab them afterwards.

Also, using the second Jab>Grab is fairly good because it has a pull in effect, so it can set you up for a D-smash or grab.
 

Apollo317

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Also, keep in mind that some things are better left prevented then solved. So try and keep Marth away from you by putting pressure on him and keep your field position good. Everything clicks for Pit when he has his opponent backed up against the ledge.
 

Apollo317

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Wasn't someone at the beginning of this thread wondering just that? If this discussion originated from trying to teach new players basic stuff...
Anyway, we've been discussing how to get out of bad zoning situations without teaching the general theory behing zoning or about creating good zoning in the first place.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't know, why Pit should try to zone a lot at all. Just to set up some arrows? See, Pit has little range, aside from his arrows...that's like saying, how do you zone with Wario? You don't. Wario tries to use dairs and bites to pwn the **** out of his opponents, not to keep him away. Pit is pretty much the same imo. You don't want the opponent to be zoned, since 1.) Pit isn't good at zoning and 2.) since he doesn't even want his opponents to be far away. Otherwise he can't make good use of his better moves: ForwardB, Nair, Uair... these moves are some evil punishment for shielders or spotdodgers...

...just my opinion
 

kown

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^okay.

so than we would be playing agressive aside from shooting arrows.
alrite so if ppl agree with gheb (which i do) than it would be correct to assume to use nair and forward b (i dont use this move tbh, its very punishable even if it hits a shielder, once AR stops its a free fsmash.) but i guess the point is to use multi hit attacks. so the best move is to use nair. WHile using nair should we try to finish the move behind them or do a retreating nair?
 

~ Gheb ~

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As a Wolf player, I have very good experince with retreating aerials. I don't know if Pit has any moves on the ground with decent range but I can imagine, that retreating nair -> dtilt could be really annoying. The main problem here is to get closer to the opponent...once Pit is close enough you're ready to penetrate the defense...
 

Apollo317

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I totally agree wit Gheb, get in close. Then you can **** them wit Pits f-throw. F-throw -> stuttersteped f smash is a combo at low percents for most chars, or you can do an instant dash attack or an h-smash, all combos on certain chars. But mainly, once you get a grab, you have control over the match. All of Pits throws are awsome.
 

kown

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Yes pits grabs are really essential to pit.

okay i like the idea of retreating nair to dtilt. Ive also seen nair (land behind them) to uptilt. but this is all with nair....we need something else.

I dont think nair alone will get the job done...and we need to mix it up u know.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Well, I don't know too much about Pits range in general...it really depends on the opponent too. A dtilt perhaps won't work against Marth, Toon Link or Wolf but perhaps on Sonic or Wario...

I really need to take a closer look into the range of pits moves but in generak, I'd say use nair, if the range is good enough...if it's not enough, use arrows but really...I have to do a little more testing
 

Undrdog

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Ok, ok, how about this. You're fighting a Samus and at any point she can stand outside of Pit's range and perform a Zair that reaches further back then Pit can retreat.

Yeah, that's what I thought. =P
 

~ Gheb ~

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Ok, ok, how about this. You're fighting a Samus and at any point she can stand outside of Pit's range and perform a Zair that reaches further back then Pit can retreat.

Yeah, that's what I thought. =P
lol arrow spam
 

Undrdog

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SH-Zair is far too fast for that. ^_^ Not to mention it auto cancels.

Ok I'll stop.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I'm not a Pit pro, dude. Just a guy who mains random and tries to help, where it's needed...
 

Admiral Pit

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Umm, yea, Im afraid of the Z-air spam of the Samus. Even a camping samus (I faced one before) took me some time to get through all the annoying missiles and Z-air. Accursed Z-air takes out our arrows!
 
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