Sheik's New Matchup Discussion Thread: Ryu

[ArikadoSD]

This is imo Sheik's hardest matchup. Maybe not the worst, but definitely the hardest. Any mistake while we're at 60% and we're dead. All of Ryu's moves do triple or quadruple the amount of damage Sheik's moves do AND he has superior frame data. His fair does 15% while +3 on shield (meaning he practically can't be shield grabbed unless power shielded) while ours does 4.3-5% and is only +1 on shield. His nair is +7 on shield while only having 6 frames of lag, bair is +6... basically we practically can't punish any of the said aerials on shield seeing all of them are + on shield and his utilt comes out frame 3. His true shoryuken is invincible frame 1 meaning Ryu can use it to escape/punish fair strings at low percents.

Sheik has to play ABSOLUTELY flawlessly in order to win or else she simply won't. As I said any mistake at around 60% and your stock will be gone. The only thing keeping Ryu from dominating Sheik is that his neutral is somewhat lackluster and he is slightly bothered by needles and fair's range and the fact that uair is a multi hit move so he can't focus attack through it. I found crouching to be a really useful tool in this mu because it can avoid utilt and all forms of hadouken but dtilt still hits it. Our own dtilt is pretty good in this matchup for the same reason as well. Walking to dtilt and crouching in general is pretty good.

His low recovery can't be challenged so for that reason it's best to somehow force him to recover high by taking his jump and forcing him to side b to recover. If he does that then Sheik can bouncing fish him until he dies.

good resources:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...QC4DJiKUVN1s3jxsOlzBuyZdMo/edit#gid=524475654
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/ryu

 

[Jaxas]

Always make sure you have at least 2 needles in hand; that way you can break his FA if you ever decide to toss needles. Charging a single needle isn't that hard, and it can get you out of some tight spots.

 

[Zubatman27]

You can Bouncing Fish over any version of Hadouken.

 

[Simikins]

Sheik can crouch under Ryu: Up Tilt, Forward Tilt (weak), Forward Smash, Focus Attack, Jab (strong), Hadoken, Tatsumaki Senpukyaku.

Sheik combos on Ryu:

Combo | %s
Bair > BF | 55 - 115
Fair > BF | 20 - 90

Most of the testing for sheik's combos was done pre-DLC, so... RIP basically.

Footstool > Dair does not work on ryu.

That's all the data we've got for him unfortunately.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Sheik can crouch under Ryu: Focus Attack,

Actually tested this a while back, she can only crouch under either level 1 or level 3, I forgot. (believe it's level 3 but honestly I can't remember for sure)

 

[Simikins]

Actually tested this a while back, she can only crouch under either level 1 or level 3, I forgot. (believe it's level 3 but honestly I can't remember for sure)

Level 1

 

[Renegade TX2000]

This match up reminds me of the MK vs Snake MU from brawl... Every mistake Sheik makes could be her last while Ryu can make all the mistakes in the world.

 

[HoSmash4]

The thing that gives sheik hope in this matchup is Ryu's sub-par mobility and vulnerable recovery.

Dont play street fighter with Ryu or else you're asking to die.

 

[Absol]

I pretty much just treat the mu like lucario. Play to time out and abuse his low speed. Spend a good portion of time dtilting and crawling in general. Always attack second when there are direct openings. Camp with needles to force him to either shield or jump. If he shields dash towards him and do nothing at a save distance to intimidate to gather information of his shield hiccups. If he jumps do the same thing with his landing. For the love of God don't get hit by utilt <see crawling> and just take the first stock and run honestly. Play lame, time him out like you should do to lucario, and it'll be fine. Just be as cancerous as possible. If you can force him into only grabbing you for damage then that's good, but don't get your shield broken. Keep grounded if possible. FD is probably the best stage to take him while lylat is the perma banned stage. Don't take him to town and City either. Platforms are tll good for him on that stage. Just make a simple camp system to acquire information and go off that. We win this match up the same reason we win vs lucario. We're faster, make the RPS we want to play, and can camp to get hiccup info.

 

[exnecross]

The problem I find with the Ryu MU is that you're gonna be trading a lot, and it really seems unavoidable in the long run unless you play super careful and prematurely drop combos on purpose. Especially at high percents, you may think you can get one more fair in and then you instantly die. Play conservative as hell, and if you are not 100% sure you can extend the combo, don't.

 

[OGPiP]

It's best to not try and combo Ryu as hard as you may want to, as exnecross mentioned it will just end in a trade if you get too greedy, and Sheik WILL lose that trade every time due to Ryu's higher damage output and knockback. Even getting 3-4 fairs into a trade will give you the disadvantage. Needles are a godsend in this matchup, easily breaking through focus attack and can be used to camp ryu out due to his slow speed and mediocre approach options (focus attack is probably the best move of his to get in with, but we break through that.)

I've found that even breaking through focus attack with f-tilt > f-tilt works from time to time if he tries to jump into you with it. Going to do some testing on if F-tilt > Dashing upsmash (just to get the sweetspot) would work to break focus attack in the same situation, will get back to you guys on that later.

Basically, needle camp him and use a lot of retreating fairs, just tack on a little damage at a time until you can get him at kill percents, wait for the focus attack, and catch him with up air to break through it.

As for his low recovery, it can be beaten by nair off stage or a well spaced Bair but it's not worth going for a lot of the time because you more than likely won't kill him and you'll end up taking more damage than he will.

 

[Absol]

After doing this mu constantly I really think this is our one losing match up honestly

 

[Daymaster]

In order to at least get something off of his low recovery, we can go for a dash-off > turnaround ledgetrump and follow up with Bair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Match-up study between me and NEO. He never fought a Ryu before but I feel he adapted well.

 

[Absol]

Match-up study between me and NEO. He never fought a Ryu before but I feel he adapted well.

Dear god save us

*prays to corrin*

 

[Absol]

Sorry for the double post but a bracket match of mine also just got uploaded. Sheik vs ryu obv

Emblem Lord could you give me a critique? Your ryu is pretty nasty.

 

[suarsuar]

I played Emblem Lord for a few hours after the Ryu hype settled and it confirmed for me that Ryu is a top tier.

Despite his predictable recovery, challenging it as Sheik is another story aside from the usual trumping tricks.

I found that trying to approach Ryu from above resulted in u-tilt to u-tilt x 100 and then death.

The only thing running for you as a Sheik player is that if you start a combo, you will have a lot of lee way and moments to push it forward since he mostly bounces around like a Cpt. Falcon.

However, be wary that a falling focus attack can and will mess you up if you don't hit it with more that two moves -- I got a tipper usmash before and that did nothing until he landed on the second hit of usmash.

But yeah, you're death percentages are easily 25-40%.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry for the double post but a bracket match of mine also just got uploaded. Sheik vs ryu obv

Emblem Lord could you give me a critique? Your ryu is pretty nasty.

Absol

Didnt really see bad play per say, BUT..I did sense a change in your, "intent".

First game you stayed away from Ryu because it seemed like you understood that was the best strategy. But second game around that second stock and into the third game I felt a change in your gameplay. Still very cautious but I felt your fear of Ryu and I think Shad sensed it too.

Play your game. Be calm. Be confident. Respect your opponent and their tools. Don't fear them. If you have fear you will just defeat yourself. Your opponent wont have to do much at that point.

But general pointers are grab more. Dash to shield is strong with Ryu so you can get alot of mileage out of just running in and grabbing on anticipation though you need to have a feel for his habits. Needle camping is strong as you saw.

You CAN play footsies with Ryu, just be SMART. Sheiks dtilt will duck under utilts, jabs, light ftilt and fsmash. Ryu loses the majority of his footie buttons against her dtilt. Shad didnt even really play footsies much. Most Ryus dont really know how too. They play patient or go in HARD. Shad relied so much on run to shield, you really gave up ALOT of free damage.

You and I should spar sometime. I'm sure we could learn some things.

 

[Absol]

Absol

Didnt really see bad play per say, BUT..I did sense a change in your, "intent".

First game you stayed away from Ryu because it seemed like you understood that was the best strategy. But second game around that second stock and into the third game I felt a change in your gameplay. Still very cautious but I felt your fear of Ryu and I think Shad sensed it too.

Play your game. Be calm. Be confident. Respect your opponent and their tools. Don't fear them. If you have fear you will just defeat yourself. Your opponent wont have to do much at that point.

But general pointers are grab more. Dash to shield is strong with Ryu so you can get alot of mileage out of just running in and grabbing on anticipation though you need to have a feel for his habits. Needle camping is strong as you saw.

You CAN play footsies with Ryu, just be SMART. Sheiks dtilt will duck under utilts, jabs, light ftilt and fsmash. Ryu loses the majority of his footie buttons against her dtilt. Shad didnt even really play footsies much. Most Ryus dont really know how too. They play patient or go in HARD. Shad relied so much on run to shield, you really gave up ALOT of free damage.

You and I should spar sometime. I'm sure we could learn some things.

I mostly just struggle because sheik doesn't have an anti air to ryu. I'm honestly just thinking going corrin for that mu

 

[Aldolies]

i've been playing the Ryu MU recently and i agree that is the hardest match up against sheik so i have tried diferent counter picks and actually kirby and mario do well against him

 

[Joaco]

I've been playing this matchup a lot with DJ Jack and discussed with Master Raven about it so here's my input.
As Arikado said, this is our hardest matchup, we can't afford to make mistakes against Ryu because we're dead. We have to be super careful.
Ryu's major weakness is his mobility, and his only way around it is Focus Attack. So in this matchup we should run away and throw needles even more than in other matchups. Like, don't let Ryu touch you, always go for the platforms and keep Ryu at a distance were he can't hit us but we can hit him. We shouldn't approach Ryu because we have the superior projectile, but if you have to, space the approach super well.
I usually try to avoid Town and City, as Ryu can kill us even earlier on that stage, and it may sound weird but I also avoid FD. I want the platforms in this matchup.

 

[Absol]

I've been playing this matchup a lot with DJ Jack and discussed with Master Raven about it so here's my input.
As Arikado said, this is our hardest matchup, we can't afford to make mistakes against Ryu because we're dead. We have to be super careful.
Ryu's major weakness is his mobility, and his only way around it is Focus Attack. So in this matchup we should run away and throw needles even more than in other matchups. Like, don't let Ryu touch you, always go for the platforms and keep Ryu at a distance were he can't hit us but we can hit him. We shouldn't approach Ryu because we have the superior projectile, but if you have to, space the approach super well.
I usually try to avoid Town and City, as Ryu can kill us even earlier on that stage, and it may sound weird but I also avoid FD. I want the platforms in this matchup.

Ryu has faster air speed than sheik

 

[HoSmash4]

I mean I dont disagree that this is one of Sheik's worst matchups but I think our overwhelming neutral and ryu's non-top tier disadvantage kills us the edge.

Although make some mistakes and yep. Dead.

 

[Danimal197]

So I get to play with Trela pretty frequently, and I agree this matchup is total ass. It is the one MU where you absolutely have to play lame to win. Frame 2 dtilt is absolutely ridiculous. I've been tech read combo'd to death from 30.

 

[Absol]

You can only play lame for so long. So long until you can't run anymore. Until you lose the lead. Until you have to approach. I'm sorry but I've already decided on using corrin instead. You NEEED a solid disjoint kit to beat ryu

 

[ArikadoSD]

You can only play lame for so long. So long until you can't run anymore. Until you lose the lead. Until you have to approach. I'm sorry but I've already decided on using corrin instead. You NEEED a solid disjoint kit to beat ryu

Funny, could swear that's literally what Trela said, word for word

 

[Absol]

Funny, could swear that's literally what Trela said, word for word

Almost word per word. But he rite tho