Sheik's Defense/Evasiveness

[PlayaFritz]

I just entered my first tournament this past weekend and ended up doing mediocore-o.k.
I seemed to run into one major problem though and that was my defense(especially against grab and dash attack spammers). A lot of players at the tourney do a lot of sidestep dodges, yet in vids(not combo) People dont really do them. Obviouusly Sheik is an offensive player and her type of game is control, but should I try to incorperate more sidestep dodges into my style, or do I need to appply the max pressure possible?

Hopefully you guys can help me out with this, thx

 

[The Mad Hatter]

If they are spamming sidestep wait for it then punish them for it. Dash at them CC then get in there and chain grab! Spammers are simple if you throw their game off.

 

[Ares726]

If they spam the sidestep there's all kinds of things you can do. You can dash in>wavedash back while they sidestep>any attack or grab. You can charge up a full barrage of needles and release them. You can CC your dash and do whatever you want.

If they spam the dash attack they just fell right into what Sheik wants them to do. Shield grab>chainthrow>fair ftw. They'll have shield lag after attacking the shield and that makes it even easier to grab them. Dash spammers are no problem for Sheik.

If they spam the grab you can either stay out of grab range (by everybody except Samus, Link, and maybe Yoshi) by using the bair or dsmash. You can waveland your aerials to stay out of range. You can even just attack them from behind.

As far was what you should do goes, just do whatever you're most comfortable with.

 

[Plairnkk]

simple solution with sheik to people who sidestep too much=dsmash.

 

[PlayaFritz]

Thx, one more thing though, should i try to sidestepdodge more, or just stick to sheild when somthin bad is comin??

 

[Ares726]

Thx, one more thing though, should i try to sidestepdodge more, or just stick to sheild when somthin bad is comin??

That depends on the attack. Your options are to dodge (sidestep/jump/roll), shield (shield/powershield), or counter (use another attack). It depends on the situation I think.

 

[PlayaFritz]

ok then that about sums it up thx

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

well here's another one: I'm a pretty good defensive sheik, only I keep having trouble with falco.
whatever you do. NEVER shieldgrab them!!! they will shine you and then the combo off doom will start.
now avoiding that simple thing is not realy a prob, but they do come right at me with shorthop laser spam.
sidestep: you'll get hit.
rolldodge: you'll get hit by falco himself.
shield: they'll try the combo.
if the combo fails they're already gone because they can jump out of the shine. (also part of the combo)
then it starts over again.

if I just go and attack I'll get stunned by the lazers and get that combo on my head T_T

so... how to deal with a falco?
good luck

 

[Ares726]

You can crouch under almost every shl. If you're crouched you can dtilt or dsmash once he's close to you. If by "combo off doom" you mean the pillar, it's not hard to get out of. There's this thing called DI that really helps. You can also tech the spike, fair Falco himself, or air dodge out of the combo. And yes, you can shield grab them. Just time it right. Falco is not that difficult for Sheik.

 

[ShackDaddy]

sheilding is better b/c u cna sheild grab or jump cancel an attack. Side stepping doesnt work well agasint good players b/c they will charge a smash and wait for u to come back from the dodge.

Its good at times, but dont get into a habbit of it

 

[Plairnkk]

You can crouch under almost every shl. If you're crouched you can dtilt or dsmash once he's close to you. If by "combo off doom" you mean the pillar, it's not hard to get out of. There's this thing called DI that really helps. You can also tech the spike, fair Falco himself, or air dodge out of the combo. And yes, you can shield grab them. Just time it right. Falco is not that difficult for Sheik.

No, you can't shield grab. Play people who can't L cancel. No you can't crouch the SHL'S, play people who know how to SHL. No, it's not easy to get out of a pillar because a good falco can chase the DI, and No, you can't tech the Dair cuz a good falco will pillar correctly and hit you again before you have a chance to tech, before you even hit the ground.

 

[Xeorogue]

Plairnkk sums it up right there. Enough said.

 

[PlayaFritz]

I play my friends falco an absolute ton. He attemps pillering alot but cant always get it down. You can't really get out of it or time it, but if your lucky they will miss it then you can sheildgrab if you put up your sheild, anyway pillering isn't really a combo its a sheild-pressuering thechnique, the falco wants you to use your sheild so that they can either break it, or start a combo out of it. And as for the SHl they can hit you if you crouch but it takes a pretty god SHl'er, you have to learn just to take some of the hits, just make sure you don't get hit by the closer ones because thats were you are left the most vulnerable.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

so there is no real tactic for fighting against falco? just keep on your toe's?
I'm lost T_T

 

[Pikaville]

so there is no real tactic for fighting against falco? just keep on your toe's?
I'm lost T_T

The d smash and f tilt and dash attack(when done properly) work well on falco.Im pretty sure a good falco can hit a crouching sheik with the SHL.The chain can destroy falco and foxs recovery if used correctly.

 

[PlayaFritz]

I agree with pikaville, but watch out a GOOD Falco has an advantage on Sheik, you just have to deal with it.

P.S. Chain Whoring Rulez

 

[-dMT-]

In high level play, Falco definitely has an advantage against Sheik. Pillaring isn't the most deadliest of combos, but annoying, damage building, and deadly nonetheless.

At low percentages u should be able to stick a nair in there after he shines u and before he gets u with his spike, to stop the combo. If not theres always the roll tech which works almost always unless you're dealing with an on point 100% success rate pillar Falco, at which point you'll have to switch your strategy to avoiding the pillar rather than escaping it.

I find mind games are VERY useful and a MUST against a good Falco. The simplest include a good dashdancing/wavedashing mix up, tech chasing, and the most important one: false approach as I call it (when you dash close and then WD back and repeat until you see an opening).

Try your best to keep Falco just above you around your head level for good tilt combos, and get him off the edge for some edgeguarding.

It comes down to 2 things for edgeguarding, Falco will either do a phantasm or the firebird. If your playing a new Falco most likely it'll be the phantasm.

Phantasm: fast fall off the edge and jump back on with Nair, which will stop and knock back the Falco.

-Once you catch him with this a few times he'll get smart and use the fire bird.

Fire Bird: Jump off the edge and instead of jumping back with an Nair, jump at him charging the fire and Fair him then return with vanish.

Once you have those 2 down, it comes down to predicting which one he'll do when u get him off the edge and punishimg him for it.

 

[Plairnkk]

good post manga and pretty true. just make sure you switch things up well. there's tons more wyas than that to edgeguard him but those are a good start.

and nobody should be using a chain to edgeguard them that's just stupid

 

[-dMT-]

good post manga and pretty true. just make sure you switch things up well. there's tons more wyas than that to edgeguard him but those are a good start.

and nobody should be using a chain to edgeguard them that's just stupid

Thanks. I play ALOT of Falcos. lol

The only time I'll be seen with my chain out is if I end up doing the CSE (Common Sheik Error) trying to recover.

My previous post btw is nowhere near covering most anti-Falco tactics. I just posted those to give an idea where to start.

One of the worst things you can do with Sheik is be predictable... and that's also the easiest thing to be when playing as Sheik. I find that predictability is what separates a goos sheik from a n00b sheik. So be unpredictable and mix things up like Plairnkk said, and be a good Sheik!

 

[FoosJr]

What i do in certain situations when im attacking with sheik and they are on the ground when i land from an areial with the oppertunity to attack me i usually l-cancel sidestep so i guess side stepping helps me then, other than that i usually use it to avoid smashes

 

[NeighborhoodP]

You can shield grab Falco (or Fox's) pillars. It's a precise timing, but it can be done. I do it all the time vs any Falco, good or bad ones. Luigi's top 20 in so cal and it works vs him.

Mastering tech chasing for the space animals is a must, and a very easy way to rack up cheap damage, enough to knock them off and **** their recovery.

 

[Plairnkk]

You can shield grab Falco (or Fox's) pillars. It's a precise timing, but it can be done. I do it all the time vs any Falco, good or bad ones. Luigi's top 20 in so cal and it works vs him.

Mastering tech chasing for the space animals is a must, and a very easy way to rack up cheap damage, enough to knock them off and **** their recovery.

Nah, you can't. I used to be at a point where i thought you could too no matter what. Then i started playing against PC chris often. No, no you can't. -_-

but yeah, tech chasing is good.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

and nobody should be using a chain to edgeguard them that's just stupid

haha well call me stupid then. it got me a good match against Doraki(a high placed french fox player) when I was on my second tourney.
and still it's my signature move on tourney's. even had a tread about it ^^

Vissen ftw


anyway. maybe a way to stop the pillar combo; what do fox's and falco's always do after the shine? jump! so would it be possible to keep my shield up, so the will be attracted to perform the combo, then when they are close enough I jump out of my shield with a nair just before he shines?
it's not the greatest combo opening, but if i can get rid of the piller combo, chances will turn.

 

[Pikaville]

D smash well timed can destroy Falco's recovery too.Im pretty sure you can grab him from his recoveries too but this is much harder.

 

[-dMT-]

Another thing i found useful against recovering Falco's and especially Fox's is to hit them with needles constantly,timing it to hit them right when they reach the edge
until they mess up the timing and their Up+B exceeds edge level, after which you are left with yet another 2 choices of action:

1) They use firefox/bird directly up (vertical) exceeding edge level and attempt to DI to the edge.

in this case i approach the edge and ftilt > fair

2) They use firefox/bird diagonally towards stage and exceed edge level

I space myself and either grab ,ftilt, or dsmash depending on situation.

 

[PlayaFritz]

One more thing to keep in mind when playing Fox or Falco is your grabs. Many people are discouraged after a fox or falco continues to tech out of your grabs so you cant start a combo with them and then they give up on grabbing during the whole match. There is one thing grabbing can do for you teched or not, and that is break the opponents control. If you are being ***** by a combo, just get in a grab in the opponents control of the match is back were it started from.

 

[-dMT-]

One more thing to keep in mind when playing Fox or Falco is your grabs. Many people are discouraged after a fox or falco continues to tech out of your grabs so you cant start a combo with them and then they give up on grabbing during the whole match. There is one thing grabbing can do for you teched or not, and that is break the opponents control. If you are being ***** by a combo, just get in a grab in the opponents control of the match is back were it started from.

true. Take that and add some tech chasing, and then YOU're in control.

 

[Plairnkk]

Meh i discourage use of the chain because if there's a point in the match where i have a fox/falco under the stage firefoxing, i'm going to KILL them anyway, not settle with the chain. Mastering sheik's edgeguard is much more important than throwing a chain out there. But yeah, grabs are AMAZING against space animals, should always grab a lot.

dmtmanga you should focus more on off the stage edgeguarding too. if a fox/falco is below the stage with a firefox, just wavedash on the ledge and back air them when they're trying to recover over and over. they CANT get past if you do it correctly.

 

[-dMT-]

dmtmanga you should focus more on off the stage edgeguarding too. if a fox/falco is below the stage with a firefox, just wavedash on the ledge and back air them when they're trying to recover over and over. they CANT get past if you do it correctly.

Oh definitely. If there's one thing I have down to a science, it's edgeguarding the space animals.

I play people who use em and are really good all the time. If I took the game seriously and decided to enter tourney's for money I;d sound less like a boasting noob, but eh. I smash for fun.

I guess I'll remain a nameless 'noob' hehe

 

[monty06]

edgeguarding space animal is relativly easy theres loads of way to do it. i found that to use the chain and get the fox or falco below u then wen they fire fox up uses the dsmash and they die everytime.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

vissen isn't about KO'ing them, but building up the damage. by any chance they go of the stage, just trow the chain and make sure your body isn't near the edge (chain is, offcource)

it's not impossible to break trough the chain, but it will take them time and a good deal of damage.

it's easy, it's fun and it's degrading
vissen ftw ^^



played some top falco's this weekend. the new tactic "jump before they shine" works so-so. i'm not getting ***** anymore, but i still have to keep on my toes or I'll get a beating.

looking forward to 2 and 3 december. big european tournament with all the big names in europe.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

Watching Drephen vs Chillin in their best of nine series, in one match on Dreamland Drephen jumps up and nairs Chillin in between the pillars, right when Chillin jumped to do the pillar again. If it works against Fox, I imagine it'd work against Falco, so that's likely another alternative to mix things up.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

can you post a link?

 

[NadaisaGod]

Dsmash > Win.

Or.

Jump > Needles > Grab.

Or.

Mash A.

 

[NeighborhoodP]

can you post a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdMer7z8OM8&mode=related&search=

I think that was the specific one, but you can find the links to all nine of them regardless.

 

[(Prince) Shadow]

sheik losses in this one and all shines except for 1, did hit sheik.
i guess it's another fight

 

[Jose Andres Herrera]

Yep, you 'should' apply Ground Dodge to your style of playing. It can help you evade grabs, or very fast attacks that leave your opponent with a low defense.

Remember, dont apply it alot because remember that the shield is fundamental for Double Kicks like Sheik's Side A or her Down A brake dance.

 

[Taalcon]

You guys aren't using the term pillaring correctly. Pillaring is using dairs and shines to pressure your shield. The only way to get out of this is to
a)The falco makes a mistake.
b)Rolling/Jumping out of shield after he shines your shield.

If you get caught up in the Falco's shine-dair combo, that's not pillaring.

 

[Ophelius]

Personally, I start with a D-throw. I know he doesn't go very high when you do that, but you can easily chase them when they recover for another grab. Don't forget to back up a little, just in case he decides to attack on his way up. Then, at around 80 or so percent, you can chaingrab him pretty easily.

Edit: for sheik's defensive game... Hmm... Needles come in handy. They can stop most attacks, or at least slow them down.

 

[LeifusYourGod]

personally i think shiek has one of the best spot dodges in the game, granted thats just from laymen game play, not going off any technical stuff.