Sheik Match-up thread (The better Zelda)

[Berserker.]

Discuss

vs

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

I haven't played many Sheik's yet, but I know you can use Shield or Smash to escape her low percent combos.
Great title btw lol

 

[Virum]

I personally feel this to be one of Shulk's better top tier matchups and personally feel it's even. I'm some sense this match-up is a bit like a lesser severe Sheik vs Lucario for Sheik where Sheik will often struggle to nab the kill until well over 160 provided his arts are used well but Shulk can potentially kill Sheik sub 80 due to her light weight. Alongside that Shulk doesn't have too hard a time dealing with Sheik in neutral. Needles are one of her strongest tools as they come out incredibly fast and cover a lot of distance meaning she is more than capable of camping you out until she feels the need to rush you down.

The main issue in this match-up for Shulk is Sheik's pressure is some of the best in the game and as a character who struggles when pressured it can be rather difficult to shake Sheik off once she gets in. Thankfully though, while she can camp you at long range and pressure at close range you dominate her at mid range as despite the speed of her aerials she has nothing to compete against well spaced aerials as her approach isn't the best. In addition, each of Shulk's attacks her Sheik a lot more than each of hers do. In Buster especially for instance 4 or 5 good hits will get her to death percent, whereas she requires a good series of strings to even come close to that damage. Smash is really great in this match-up as not only does it allow you to more easily evade some of Sheik's combo strings when you're at slightly higher percents but it also of course allows you to kill her crazy early. Since Sheik has very few solid kill options Smash is much less risky than in a lot of matchups.

The other main thing I'd say to watch out for is if you're offstage. Sheik's edgeguard game is very potent, arguably better than ours. Always be wary of that Bouncing Fish as it's the one thing that's going to kill you early. Not to mention she's no where near as easy to edgeguard as she was in past games again due to Bouncing Fish vastly improving her recovery. Still, I don't think the match-up is as bad as say Diddy or Sonic. Personally I'd say 50/50 or 45/55 in Sheik's favour.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I personally feel this to be one of Shulk's better top tier matchups and personally feel it's even. I'm some sense this match-up is a bit like a lesser severe Sheik vs Lucario for Sheik where Sheik will often struggle to nab the kill until well over 160 provided his arts are used well but Shulk can potentially kill Sheik sub 80 due to her light weight. Alongside that Shulk doesn't have too hard a time dealing with Sheik in neutral. Needles are one of her strongest tools as they come out incredibly fast and cover a lot of distance meaning she is more than capable of camping you out until she feels the need to rush you down.

The main issue in this match-up for Shulk is Sheik's pressure is some of the best in the game and as a character who struggles when pressured it can be rather difficult to shake Sheik off once she gets in. Thankfully though, while she can camp you at long range and pressure at close range you dominate her at mid range as despite the speed of her aerials she has nothing to compete against well spaced aerials as her approach isn't the best. In addition, each of Shulk's attacks her Sheik a lot more than each of hers do. In Buster especially for instance 4 or 5 good hits will get her to death percent, whereas she requires a good series of strings to even come close to that damage. Smash is really great in this match-up as not only does it allow you to more easily evade some of Sheik's combo strings when you're at slightly higher percents but it also of course allows you to kill her crazy early. Since Sheik has very few solid kill options Smash is much less risky than in a lot of matchups.

The other main thing I'd say to watch out for is if you're offstage. Sheik's edgeguard game is very potent, arguably better than ours. Always be wary of that Bouncing Fish as it's the one thing that's going to kill you early. Not to mention she's no where near as easy to edgeguard as she was in past games again due to Bouncing Fish vastly improving her recovery. Still, I don't think the match-up is as bad as say Diddy or Sonic. Personally I'd say 50/50 or 45/55 in Sheik's favour.

Totally agree with this. Definitely feels like one of Shulk's better MU's among the tops. Ironically, the character whose considered top next to Diddy is one of the MU's thats easier for Shulk, lol.

I would add one more thing though, if you get hit offstage, it's more to your advantage to typically go to Monado Jump, since it allows you to bypass/evade Sheik's edgeguarding easier, and get back onto the stage safer. And of course, Speed is good in neutral, but i prefer Buster as it really helps in getting Sheik to KO percentages fast.

I honestly wouldn't recommend using Shield at all in this Match Up, as Sheik has few KO moves, and Shield will lower your knockback enough to make it easy for Sheik to start comboing you again, even at high percents, and she can easily edge guard you off stage while you're in this Arte. It really overall with hurt you rather than help you.

And lastly, Vision doesn't help much in this MU, as you mightve guessed. Given how fast she is, and how some of her attacks can be relatively safe, counter will be hard to land, and with not much reward given how she's a combo type character rather than a high damage dealing one.

 

[kenniky]

And lastly, Vision doesn't help much in this MU, as you mightve guessed. Given how fast she is, and how some of her attacks can be relatively safe, counter will be hard to land, and with not much reward given how she's a combo type character rather than a high damage dealing one.

Something to add: Doing a normal (not forward) Power Vision on Sheik's up smash will end with you getting hit by the second hit of that move.

It happened to me and I cried

Vision is not the best tool against Sheik

 

[erico9001]

I honestly wouldn't recommend using Shield at all in this Match Up, as Sheik has few KO moves, and Shield will lower your knockback enough to make it easy for Sheik to start comboing you again, even at high percents, and she can easily edge guard you off stage while you're in this Arte. It really overall with hurt you rather than help you.

Just a small correction with this part: Monado Shield barely lowers knockback. The only difference is the difference in damage. Knockback is calculated using the damage after the hitbox hits, and that's what slightly lowers the knockback. It's not really a huge effect.

I still think Monado Shield may be bad though. While Smash allows you to get out of combos early, I guess Shield would help you stay in combo's late. The lowered mobility can't help you with maintaining your mid-range spacing, either.

 

[Berserker.]

Buster and speed are good in this match up. Especially buster. A lot of people don't like the idea of using buster but I disagree. Sheik's attacks don't deal a lot of damage. If they did hit harder, maybe we should think twice about using buster (we'd take +2% more damage if it were stronger), but Sheik's damage output overall isn't even high to begin with. The difference in damage is mostly 1%. Plus, we're trying to zone Sheik. Buster art is especially good for zoning (and so is speed).

Basically, there isn't really much to worry about when it comes to buster's defense nerf. You're likely to still deal more damage than she does. As long as you use buster correctly

Also, shield is bad in this match up. It's unnecessary. Sheik can just camp you out with needles easily or go for the gimp and f-air chain you off stage.

Even imo. At worst -1

 

[erico9001]

Looks like Buster/Smash strategy works here! That's neat.

 

[Zephil]

don't use Buster at 0%, don't use Buster at 0%. for god sake don't use Buster at 0%...

I know that the % increase for Sheik is not that much per attack but Sheik strings can get so long that not only you get more damage but also at the end of the combo you probably will end outside of the stage and taking into account the time to recover you get back to the stage and Sheik already took all the time of Buster for you.

Buster is really good in this match don't get me wrong but I recommend to use it when Shulk is above 50% as her strings will not be as time consuming.

I feel this MU its all about dat Speed. Speed should be the main MA and is the one I recommend to begin as the extra mobility makes Shulk harder to get hit confirmed.

 

[TWILTHERO]

Just wanna agree that using Shield is a really easy way for Sheik to just edgeguard Shulk at early percentages, so don't use it at all. Other than that, I also agree that Buster is a very good option in the fight, though Speed can be useful too. It's definitely more even than it seems, if not maybe a slight advantage for Sheik.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I played one at Apex in R1 pools. I won game 1 with Fox (my main), lost game 2, and then switched to Shulk game 3 and won due to my opponent having matchup inexperience. I think this is a bad matchup for Shulk:
35:65

At low %, getting away from Sheik is absolute hell. She can damage you from nearly anywhere in the stage: whether it's via throwing Needles, zoning you out with superior movement to punish your laggier attacks, or the annoying f-tilt combos at close quarters. Shulk being R.O.B. heavy doesn't help him with the last one either.

The positive here that I see is Shulk has got Speed, Jump and Smash going for him during the start of the match. Now the first two may seem obvious... but Smash? "Really Cozy?" you might ask. Yes, Smash! This greatly helps Shulk at low percents, as it let's him avoid get combo'd to death. It's a big difference when you can get hit at 35% and be sent far enough to avoid a Bouncing Fish follow up while in Smash compared to being in any other Monado where Sheik combo'ing you up to 50% still guarantees the Bouncing Fish to hit you and get you past 60%. In terms of Speed, you can use it to approach with SH n-airs, pivot or running grabs, run into your shield, pivot tilts, tomahawk short hops... you know, that kind of stuff. The thing is that you still get stuffed by Needles, so you always gotta be on the lookout for those and be careful of your approaches. When it comes to Jump, the higher height and faster air speed you gain lets you escape certain follow ups from Sheik, particularly her F-air strings and Fish follow ups. I should note here though that Speed is more useful for approaching than Jump since Sheik has very little punish-able cooldown and Jump might not get you there fast enough. You can still use it for creative approaches though, but I wouldn't rely on it as much as Speed. For ground control, the only quick options that Shulk really has available to escape are his jab and Vision counter. The first one has poor range and is still slower than Sheik's jab, and the latter requires a read. The other ground options Shulk has are U-tilt if she's jumping and D-tilt if she's running at you, both of which have enough cooldown to let Shiek punish them (specially with Fish).

Edit: shoot, forgot Buster. I agree with the posts here saying that it's good, but it's not something you can use all the time. Definitely not at lower percents, unless your Smash tag is Ally and you can outplay the crap out of your opponent anyways, do not go using Buster at low %.
With that said, this monado is very useful once you start getting at higher % yourself. At this point, you might as well tack on as much damage to either make a comeback or come back with a size-able lead the next stock. Buster is the comeback Monado in this matchup, and it's incredibly useful if you've conditioned Sheik to keep doing something. Also worth noting: Buster is best activated once you've put Sheik in a tough position, whether it's offstage or after you've thrown/knocked her away airborne above you. Activating right from the start is only a good idea if you're confident you can approach with Vanilla movement stats... which I don't think is easy at all.

When it comes to range, Shiek has little other than Fish to catch you slippin' and her F-smash which travels forward. These are her moves that weave her in towards you to punish anything you over-commit with, provided you're spacing your moves properly to not get stuck in a barrage of F-tilts or dash grabbed by her. You've got her outranged in this sense: if Sheik gets greedy and tries to follow you up with a F-air or a B-air, you can get a F-air in to knock her away. Once you get to higher %, she'll have a much tougher time finding the KO. Because of Shulk's weight, you'll be in rage by this point which is quite nice. Knocking her offstage with Jump activated will allow for some deep offstage gimps. Shield is pretty bad, like everyone said, in certain situations for when you want to live longer it miiiight be useful, but just know that with it equipped you're letting her get a Bouncing Fish at 110%, and even with Shield equipped no amount of DI will prevent you from getting sent offstage.

So in the end, I think Shulk loses this because Shiek just mauls on him and outspeeds him in general. She can damage you from almost anywhere in the stage while you have to get semi-close to her while still spacing her tilts and other moves. Bouncing Fish and the threat of turn-around B-airs are real, specially when they're much quicker than anything you have available in the air (sans Vision, which is very situational to use if you're in the air anyways). On the other hand, the stat modifiers that are given to Shulk help him mix up his ways of both approaching and escaping Shiek, and his range being better lets him punish her if she gets greedy. Because of this, I think the MU is a decent advantage for Sheik, even though Shulk has tools to let him succeed. He's just gotta work very hard for that win.

+1 to Sheik from me.

 

[Artryuu]

Buster works very effectively, she might rack you up damage a bunch with a load of fairs and there, but you can even it up quickly with two moves. Zone with nair and mindgame to u-tilt if she's being the aggressive type with fairs. Also, jab her approaches.

Eh, I don't think shield is bad against sheik, Shield is at most your best tool. If you master the arts and change them quickly, shield is a must against sheik. When shield is on, on high percents, she'll have the sheik syndrome. She'll probably camp you but that's when you bring mindgames here, Use speed.

MALC works wonders too when bringing the mindgames.
So best arts: Buster and shield.

 

[Maple42]

Actually, I would like to make a case for the use of Shield.
Sheik may be able to combo you easier while in Shield, but what of it ~? If you're in that Art, it means you're at a high percentage anyways. From my understanding, Sheik has a hard time killing (if I'm wrong, please inform me); if you play safely, Shield is effectively giving you 'free' damage so to speak, since that stock would have expired long ago if not for being in Shield.
Also, Shield generally leads to being in Rage range, increasing the risk for Sheik, while lowering the risk for you. That is the definition of safe: low risk, high reward. Her kill moves, Bouncing Fish and FSmash are somewhat hard to land without a read, while your punish moves are, again, low risk due to Shield form, and high risk for her, due to rage.

 

[DavemanCozy]

You're not in Shield forever though. So while that damage might not seem like much at the time, you're essentially going to be screwed after Shield runs out.

It's not like this is Kirby, who we can just run or jump circles around with a combination of Jump and Speed. Sheik is very fast, her moves have little cooldown and she's not going to be putting up with any of your zooming around nor jet boot tricks.

Bouncing Fish isn't really that hard to land, especially when you're trying to recover. It's such a good move that it's been called the new Shuttle Loop of this game (Shuttle Fish / Bouncing Loop). Consider how safe it is to land the move on shield and how it travels a good distance (which is fast enough to punish a whiffed d-tilt from Shulk) and how much knockback it has too. It's not good to be getting hit by this even if you're Bowser heavy, you'll still go offstage after 90%, and considering how ridiculously good Sheik is at gimping, that's not somewhere I want to be.

I disagree with Shield being good in this MU. Maybe if it's used as a situational survival technique, but otherwise it's no bueno.

 

[Artryuu]

So that is why I said above to know how to quickly change your arts (That would be the only way to effectively use shield.) Sure she can gimp you with shield if you freak out and lose your second jump, but she won't be able to kill you off stage with fairs. (Change to jump to come back. Don't airdodge they wait for this so go fair.)

Indeed Bouncing Fish isn't hard to land but that doesn't mean it's not challengeable. It's not like zss down b which has invincibility frames, sheik's bouncing fish doesn't have. Up smash prioritizes it, fair, even fsmash, but I recommend Upsmash at best. You can even bait with it. If you miss the upsmash, if you had a fair distance (let's say she was camping with needles) you could quickly cancel to a jab.

 

[Berserker.]

I've been playing Sheik for a while now and I'm going to move down my score from 0 to -1

Sheik's attack speed and her many ways of setting up into bouncing fish are definitely a pain for Shulk

Edit: I'm dwindling between -0.5 to -1 but I'll stick to -1

Bump

Are you guys sure this is an even match up? I think this is a slight disadvantage (-1). Sheik just outspeeds whatever we do. I mean, the match up is still doable by all means and it's definitely not a sonic/fox-level difficult match up since Sheik's damage output sucks. I think we're all forgetting here that she can edgeguard us very well while we can't really do much against Sheik's recovering options even with jump art activated. The only things that halt this match up from being a clear -2 is the fact that Shulk can easily regain the lead or equalize the match with a few hits from buster. That, and the fact that Sheik's usually fishing for kills and she can't KO that well even against Smash Shulk.... AND Sheik's light so she can easily get KO'd with Smash art activated... and speed art being really good. That's about it. Her attack speed is just too good but I don't think it shuts Shulk down or anything.

So yeah, I'm -1 for sure. Note that this means that Sheik only has the slight advantage which means that the match is still very winnable but slightly uphill. Any objections?

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Bump

Are you guys sure this is an even match up? I think this is a slight disadvantage (-1). Sheik just outspeeds whatever we do. I mean, the match up is still doable by all means and it's definitely not a sonic/fox-level difficult match up since Sheik's damage output sucks. I think we're all forgetting here that she can edgeguard us very well while we can't really do much against Sheik's recovering options even with jump art activated. The only things that halt this match up from being a clear -2 is the fact that Shulk can easily regain the lead or equalize the match with a few hits from buster. That, and the fact that Sheik's usually fishing for kills and she can't KO that well even against Smash Shulk.... AND Sheik's light so she can easily get KO'd with Smash art activated... and speed art being really good. That's about it. Her attack speed is just too good but I don't think it shuts Shulk down or anything.

So yeah, I'm -1 for sure. Note that this means that Sheik only has the slight advantage which means that the match is still very winnable but slightly uphill. Any objections?

Sheik has a slight advantage, but i dunno if it's really so much of a slight advantage that it should be rated -1 in her favor. Considering Shulk can regain the lead in a matter of seconds with a few hits, and has way better survivability chances than she does, i honestly think this is even, it's literally a struggle between the 2 of who can keep the lead at any point in time. Sure, Sheik can gimp us, but if you save the Jump Arte, you can easily make it back and avoid her edge guard traps, there's only so far Sheik can gimp us off stage before she has to retreat if she wants to make it back stage.

I still maintain that this match up is +0. It's considered one of Shulk's easier Top tier MU's for a reason, and he does have all that range to keep Sheik at bay.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Like I said before, I still hold that it's a solid +1 for Shiek (ie, -1 for Shulk).

I do agree though that Shulk can turn things around in this MU should he get her offstage with the right Monado equiped though

 

[Eisen]

The thing that sucks about this matchup is that, as others mentioned, once Sheik gets us in the air, we're dead. For the longest time I felt like sheik wasn't a threat either, but I've played a good Sheik recently and I can say that her tools are just overall a bit better than ours, not to mention the simple fact of how poorly Shulk handles Sheik's pressure and can't fight off anyone with good juggles. The only thing I can say to do is switch to Shield or Smash mode depending on %, and vision out of her faster, more guaranteed combos if possible. Shield also works to keep Sheik from killing you as long as you play ultra defensively and don't get thrown offstage.

Not even close to unwinnable, but I do think that when the Sheik and Shulk players are more even in terms of overall game skill, the Sheik will have more success. (AKA bad/decent Sheiks are pretty easy and good Sheiks are a living nightmare)

I don't like to put numbers on it because I'm not very good at it, but if I had to, I'd say 40:60 or 45:55 in Sheik's favor.

 

[Berserker.]

I'd say 40:60 or 45:55 in Sheik's favor.

So -1 then? Alright

 

[Eisen]

Yeah I wasn't disagreeing with anyone really, just kinda reinforcing the -1 idea based on my experiences.

 

[Berserker.]

@ DavemanCozy
@ Eisen

So apparently... It seems like the Sheik boards think Shulk is an even match up, so I guess we're doing something wrong?

 

[spiderfreak1011]

@ DavemanCozy
@ Eisen

So apparently... It seems like the Sheik boards think Shulk is an even match up, so I guess we're doing something wrong?

Well it's just harder on our end, to them it probably feels like while they can gain the upper hand, Shulk can easily sway the battle back in his favor quickly so they feel like it's a power struggle the entire time and therefore even. That's just me though.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I don't really see how Sheik vs Shulk is even when Sheik plays the matchup patiently.

Hmm. Let's consider this one again soon. More specifically, let's explore what Buster and Smash can do in this MU, as I'm getting a feeling they might be more useful than being given credit for.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't really see how Sheik vs Shulk is even when Sheik plays the matchup patiently.

Hmm. Let's consider this one again soon. More specifically, let's explore what Buster and Smash can do in this MU, as I'm getting a feeling they might be more useful than being given credit for.

I remember going on a friendly against Sheik. He got a ton of hits on me which dealt ~25% damage. I managed to gain the lead after two hits with n-air to f-smash which deals 35% damage then I kept the momentum going and it became one sided

Buster and smash are probably a lot more valuable than we think. I guess. Smash art is great because Sheik's KO power is really horrendous. As in, she even has trouble KO'ing Smash Shulk as far as I've experienced

I think what makes this match up even to most players is that although Sheik has an easier time getting what she wants, when Shulk lands any sort of hit, the match can easily reset or go to his favor. Sheik requires a lot of strings to deal X damage but Shulk only needs a few hits to do the damage Sheik would usually. This is probably why buster is really useful in the match up. Just my guess but I'll give this match up another shot. More emphasis on buster and less emphasis on speed.

 

[DavemanCozy]

KO power isn't exactly horrendous. Sheik just needs to... fish for the kill.

But actually. She can bait and trap us and edgeguard really well.

I beat a Sheik main during Apex pools, after he had taken game 2 vs my Fox I switched to Shulk. Idk, I was thinking "why did I switch to Shulk" throughout, it was not an easy win, I ended up getting him with a throw offstage to Fair him off the side to win.

Even then, I don't think it's even. Is there a post in the Sheik boards that explains their reasoning behind the even mu?

 

[Berserker.]

Rechecked. Nope. No explanation. They were like, "Oh it's even." Then again, Shulk players are a rarity so take it with a grain of salt. I guess

I remember talking to a Sheik player (that beat me in the tournament). He was adamant about the match up being even for the same said reasons. Yet again, idk. I don't think it's even either.

I know how to settle this. Brb.

 

[ArikadoSD]

I used to think it's even (coming from a Sheik main here) but now i'm kinda skeptical about that. When played patiently Sheik can just stall out monado arts if need be. Sheild can be camped with needles, and same goes to Buster and Smash. Speed is annoying though. I'm keeping an open mind atm and consider it even but i need more experience with a shulk of the same skill level or close enough or something.

I haven't played any top Shulk players but I've had experience against a few solid ones; generally speaking we can wait for Shulk to do something dumb or get frustrated and capitalize on the punish. This is doable when Shulk opts for smash/buster and gets a bit impatient. Also, Shulk being a mid-weight character (comparing him to falcon here; im not 100% sure), and not being a short character or having a quick attack that can break out of combos (think mario/luigi/yoshi's nair), its fairly easy to combo him. Also easy to gimp him out unless they're using jump.

Imo the key for Shulk is to just space out well, especially considering his aerials have awesome range which can stop sheik's approach from the air. Directly challenging sheik in the air is bad tho cuz we've got dem fast fairs.

Not sure if my post was of any help but im on the bus now and got exams next week so :o

 

[New_Dumal]

(Sheik main here).
-----------
I think Shulk is a very underated character , but in this MU ... I think Sheik is +2 (65~70/35~30) or at least +1 for Sheik.
Why ?
Shulk have different options against Sheik changing his Monado Arts.
But if Sheik space herself properly, it is very difficult to hit her with anything that leads do to a combo , and Sheik has faster options to punish any Shulk mistake (what he is commited to do, because has no projectiles and needs to approach to mid-range).
Talking in a simple way, Sheik has the Neutral game advantage.

Shulk have a great recovery and very good options to edge guard.
So does Sheik. In this MU, I think is easier to Shulk edgeguad Sheik than Sheik edge guard shulk.
Monado range makes Bouncing Fish too dangerous to be used as recovery =/
Shulk must be cautious with changing Monado Arts in Air, because Bouncing fish is a perfect punish for this, but knowing the MU the problem is solved.
It's not common this happen, but I believe Sheik have not the advantage off-stage.

Sheik, without doubts, builds damage faster than Sheik.
There's not much to talk about this. Sheik speed and strings works well against Shulk.
If Shulk is greedy enough to go "Buster" , he can't make any mistake or will be punished with a giant ammount of damage.

Now, what should become this even, but doesn't.
Sheik or Shulk kills faster ?
In theory, Shulk has all the options to kill Sheik faster than she does with him.
Shield MA with Sheik low knockback base seems to work, but then you dies by falling.
Buster MA seems to be the most suicide thing against Sheik.
Smash MA truly can turn the game to Shulk, but you must hit a Smash attack to win a early kill, and Sheik can play safe for seconds. One dangerous approach and Sheik's problems with knockback is over because the Smash MA.
Speed and Jump seems to be the best options to a regular game.
Anyway, Sheik has better setups to kill Shulk.
Sheik can throw to 50/50 Vanish/Uair in reasonable %'s.
Sheik can bouncing fish from sour spot Nair.
Sheik has a USmash that trumphs against Shulk's Dair or any air dodge trap.
And if the Sheik player plays too safely, he build stupid damage and kills with Bair or Fair.
So... Sheik have more options to kill Shulk.

I play this MU once in a month at least, with a competent friend who mains Shulk/Yoshi.
What usually happens is :
"He wins doing a hard read and taking one life away with a Smash attack"
"He wins with a incredible Fair off-stage"
"Or he loses, what happens most."

So I truly believe this is at least 65/35 in Sheik's favor.
Completely playable anyway.Not a "Hard counter" or something like this.
But if you know how to play good with another character with a better MU against Sheik, I would give it a try.
(My friend is playing Yoshi against Sheik players now).
--------------
I hope I have been helpful.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't feel solidly countered by Sheik. I mean, yeah Shulk has to work for the win but it isn't as excruciating as Fox. Don't think that buster is considered "suicide" at all against Sheik for as long as you don't use it while your at range to get needle-camped. If you're at a certain distance from Sheik (AKA: Mid-range), buster is fine to use. Spacing with buster at mid-range works well

I also don't think that the needles are actually the main issue of the match up. The true issue is Sheik's godlike frame data being too fast for Shulk to deal with. Speed art and jump art are good enough against needles imo because of the additional mobility from both arts (and the increased jump height from jump art) but none of the arts fix the inherent problem of Sheik simply outspeeding Shulk in general. Shulk needs to think twice about using an aerial because patient Sheiks WILL shield grab f-air and n-air, then they'll go for the strings. Shulk's disjoint is definitely useful here HOWEVER, Sheik has ways of breaking into his zone. This is why spacing is crucial aaaand.... using buster might be an option at mid-range against Sheik if you want your attacks to be safe on shield. You can always opt for speed art though, but the reduced damage output makes it more unsafe on shield. You'll have to take advantage of your mobility and learn how to mix up your offensive options.

Decided to check on Sheik's damage output on Buster Shulk (Normal - Buster)

Jab 1 (2 - 2.26)
Jab 2 (3 - 3.39)
Dash attack (6.5 - 7.345)
Dash attack ~ Late (4.5 - 5.085)
F-tilt (4 - 4.52)
D-tilt (7 - 8.475)
U-tilt ~ 1st hit (5 - 5.65)
U-tilt ~ 2nd hit (6 - 6.78)
F-smash ~ 1st hit (5 - 5.65)
F-smash ~ 2nd hit (8 - 9.04)
D-smash ~ 1st hit (3 - 3.39)
D-smash ~ 2nd hit (6 - 6.78)
U-smash ~ 1st hit (15 - 16.95)
U-smash ~ 2nd hit (11 - 12.43)
N-air (8 - 9.04 / 7 - 7.91)
N-air ~ Late (5 - 5.65 / 4 - 4.52)
F-air (5.5 - 6.215 / 4.8 - 5.424)
U-air (1 - 1.13)
U-air ~ Last hit (4 - 4.52)
D-air (8 - 9.04)
B-air (10 - 11.3 / 11 - 12.43)
B-air ~ Late (5 - 5.65)
F-throw (7 - 7.91)
D-throw (6 - 6.78)
B-throw (7 - 7.91)
U-throw (5 - 5.65)

Oh and if this is sounding like I'm vouching for it being even, I definitely don't. It's a slight disadvantage but I'd like to prioritize on the discussion instead of the numbers please.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Oh she's hella scary for a good 7/8ths of the cast. It comes down to being aggressive with Monado stances and use the movement to mess with her. I believe Smash to be good at low percents vs her and Fox, higher knockback makes escaping their combos so much easier. Needles are annoying with Smash though.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What does Shulk have that's even remotely safe on Sheik's shield? Literally nothing, Shulk is just grab and combo bait, as long as you don't get cheesed by Monado Jump combos this is a really easy match up.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

I don't feel solidly countered by Sheik. I mean, yeah Shulk has to work for the win but it isn't as excruciating as Fox. Don't think that buster is considered "suicide" at all against Sheik for as long as you don't use it while your at range to get needle-camped. If you're at a certain distance from Sheik (AKA: Mid-range), buster is fine to use. Spacing with buster at mid-range works well

I also don't think that the needles are actually the main issue of the match up. The true issue is Sheik's godlike frame data being too fast for Shulk to deal with. Speed art and jump art are good enough against needles imo because of the additional mobility from both arts (and the increased jump height from jump art) but none of the arts fix the inherent problem of Sheik simply outspeeding Shulk in general. Shulk needs to think twice about using an aerial because patient Sheiks WILL shield grab f-air and n-air, then they'll go for the strings. Shulk's disjoint is definitely useful here HOWEVER, Sheik has ways of breaking into his zone. This is why spacing is crucial aaaand.... using buster might be an option at mid-range against Sheik if you want your attacks to be safe on shield. You can always opt for speed art though, but the reduced damage output makes it more unsafe on shield. You'll have to take advantage of your mobility and learn how to mix up your offensive options.

Decided to check on Sheik's damage output on Buster Shulk (Normal - Buster)

Jab 1 (2 - 2.26)
Jab 2 (3 - 3.39)
Dash attack (6.5 - 7.345)
Dash attack ~ Late (4.5 - 5.085)
F-tilt (4 - 4.52)
D-tilt (7 - 8.475)
U-tilt ~ 1st hit (5 - 5.65)
U-tilt ~ 2nd hit (6 - 6.78)
F-smash ~ 1st hit (5 - 5.65)
F-smash ~ 2nd hit (8 - 9.04)
D-smash ~ 1st hit (3 - 3.39)
D-smash ~ 2nd hit (6 - 6.78)
U-smash ~ 1st hit (15 - 16.95)
U-smash ~ 2nd hit (11 - 12.43)
N-air (8 - 9.04 / 7 - 7.91)
N-air ~ Late (5 - 5.65 / 4 - 4.52)
F-air (5.5 - 6.215 / 4.8 - 5.424)
U-air (1 - 1.13)
U-air ~ Last hit (4 - 4.52)
D-air (8 - 9.04)
B-air (10 - 11.3 / 11 - 12.43)
B-air ~ Late (5 - 5.65)
F-throw (7 - 7.91)
D-throw (6 - 6.78)
B-throw (7 - 7.91)
U-throw (5 - 5.65)

Oh and if this is sounding like I'm vouching for it being even, I definitely don't. It's a slight disadvantage but I'd like to prioritize on the discussion instead of the numbers please.

While Sheik can punish us Shulk's from using N-air/F-air, alot of people forget that there are such things as empty hops used to bait a reaction and punish with grab. Sheik has to respect our aerials and range, because with the likes of Buster and Smash on our side, we can gain the lead in percentage as quickly as she can. A patient Sheik can wait out our Monado Artes, but i think this is a Match Up where Buffering Monado Artes could come well into play. I remember @Locke06 saying how typically when he used Shulk, he'd use Jump/Speed to get in easily and gain the upper hand in the neutral, then once he'd be in an advantageous position, he'd buffer and switch to Buster/Smash depending and follow up with them while he still has the advantage.

The Sheik mains who've said their input on this match up say that if they're patient, only Jump and Speed are really the difficult Artes to deal with on their end. But, given how they have to respect our aerials and our enhanced manueverability. With this Match Up, if we're fighting a patient Sheik that knows what they're doing, we can't just try to ride out the advantages of the likes of Buster and Smash for as long as the Modes are active, as Sheik still has the tools to punish our mistakes as while Shulk does gain more shield pressure/becomes less easily combo'ed respectively, he still has laggy attacks and has his disadvantages (he'll be punished with even more damage in Buster from Sheik's easy bake combos, or one little mistake in Smash and Sheik can KO us because of her godlike frame rate).

The best thing for Shulk to do is stay in Jump/Speed Monado for a majority of the neutral so Sheik can't be patient and wait us out, and we can keep up with her and keep up the pressure, then when we're in the lead of the neutral, try to switch to Buster and Smash when we're at the vantage point and take advantage of it until the game shifts back to the neutral, and then revert back to Jump/Speed again to deal with the neutral. So when we switch out of Buster/Smash even if Jump or Speed is on cooldown, one of them should be available for use to make fighting Sheik in the Neutral game easier to deal with. This honestly feels like the Mega Man Match up in a sense, since whenever i play one, i typically find myself buffering from Speed to Buster whenever i gain the advantage in the Neutral to take full advantage of my lead, before reverting to deal with the neutral once more.

Another thing to note is to be careful and not pull out laggy attacks unless it's sure to be safe, and not fish too aggressively for a KO. Sheik can punish us and gain the lead in the Match Up as easily as we can, so the best thing to do is keep a cool head and play smart. If a Sheik can play smart and wait us out on our laggy artes, then Shulk can't play this like a normal Match up. He has to adapt and play smart aswell, and use his tools to the best of his ability in order to outplay the Sheik.

I still stand by that this Match Up is 45:55 Sheik's favor at best, yes Sheik can bait us out and play patient, but if we play smart and use our Artes strategically to make it so it's harder for Sheik to time us out and take advantage of our easier to wait out artes when she's losing the Neutral, we can still make this Match Up a challenging one for her as it is for us. It's just a matter of playing Smart and not treating this Match Up like it's any other MU that's not against a Top Tier.

What does Shulk have that's even remotely safe on Sheik's shield? Literally nothing, Shulk is just grab and combo bait, as long as you don't get cheesed by Monado Jump combos this is a really easy match up.

I don't know about that, have you seen how much Shield Pressure Shulk can do with some of his moves in Buster?

There's a reason it's considered one of his Best Artes. Shulk's a technical character, and while Sheik may have a great frame rate and speed, Shulk's no pushover despite the fact that he has laggy attacks. His Monado Artes make things more challenging than you think, Sheik can be patient, but Shulk can play smart too.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Shield pressure doesn't exist in this game unless you are Peach or have a move that one shots shields like Yoshi, Bowser or Lucina or something.

 

[spiderfreak1011]

Shield pressure doesn't exist in this game unless you are Peach or have a move that one shots shields like Yoshi, Bowser or Lucina or something.

Well when i'm talking about Shield Pressure i mean also how far a character's shield can get pushed back by another character's attack, not just how much it takes for a Shield to be broken. And for the record, Buster Shulk has enough damage to break Shield's if the opponent Shields too much. D-Smash in Buster especially has alot of Shield Pressure because of the Multiple Hits and sheer damage. It's not often, but Buster Shulk definitely has alot of Damage Output/Shield Pressure, he can definitely break Shields.

 

[erico9001]

I'm curious about the tips @ Berserker. got from that Shulk player from the tourny.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm curious about the tips @ Berserker. got from that Shulk player from the tourny.

I'll probably get it another day. It's 2:48 AM atm.

Then again, I won't let 3 sets affect my opinion on the match up. I still think Sheik beats Shulk but it sort of gives me encouragement that it isn't a total counter. 4/6 sounds reasonable for me. Like I said, it ain't the needles. It's her frame data that annoys me when I go against her.

Remember kids, we're not here to prove what the score is. We're here to help each other!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well when i'm talking about Shield Pressure i mean also how far a character's shield can get pushed back by another character's attack, not just how much it takes for a Shield to be broken. And for the record, Shield Shulk has enough damage to break Shield's if the opponent Shields too much. D-Smash in Buster especially has alot of Shield Pressure because of the Multiple Hits and sheer damage. It's not often, but Buster Shulk definitely has alot of Samge Output/Shield Pressure, he can definitely break Shields.

Doesn't matter, if Sheik shields something, you're either going to get grabbed or have needles thrown at you, whether you're in Buster or not.

Also proper shield management will ensure Shulk will never break your shield. He doesn't have a fast attack rate so he can't really break shields unless your opponent is being bad.

 

[erico9001]

Well I actually broke a Sheik's shield today with a nice buster F-smash. Although, that didn't stop me from losing the match.

I seek advice about stages. Platforms seem to give Sheik the advantage thanks to her fast aerials. Maybe FD would be good, but my fear is needles might become more of a threat. Well, that might still be a better situation.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Well I actually broke a Sheik's shield today with a nice buster F-smash. Although, that didn't stop me from losing the match.

I seek advice about stages. Platforms seem to give Sheik the advantage thanks to her fast aerials. Maybe FD would be good, but my fear is needles might become more of a threat. Well, that might still be a better situation.

Sheik can do well in pretty much all stages so good luck finding a good counterpick lol. Only stages I personally absolutely despise are delfino and halberd, for their low ceilings. Stuff like Diddy and Sonic can kill us from ridiculously low percents with a good uair or something, so yeah.