Sheik Match-up thread (The better Zelda)

[Sonny Franceschi]

shield and vision in my perspective is the best thing in this matchup, always i fight a sheik i survive 200%+ and the rage is insane

 

[foolssigma]

I went to my first tournament this past weekend and got knocked out of winners by Chudat's Sheik. This thread would have been helpful to read beforehand . I kept getting caught in fair chains. Is the best way out of that to just air dodge? I got him with a bunch of power counters since he was being overly aggressive, but outside of the fair chains, the matchup seemed in his favor. Sheik really capitalizes on Shulk's laggy moves with grabs if you don't space properly.

 

[Gidy]

Sheik only got a bair nerf and while it was one of her major kill moves I still think she wins the MU.

 

[Berserker.]

She still bodies Shulk at neutral (and kind of shuts him down) so yeah. Still feels like Sheik's favor although -1 is actually possible to graze this time because she really has issues killing this time (she's reliant on vanish set ups/bouncing fish set ups).

Despite the b-air nerf, most of the things that made her annoying to deal with are still there.

 

[Virum]

Well, Sheik bodies everyone in neutral barring a tiny handful of characters. The question in the matchup really is how badly and what can the opposing character do in retaliation? In this sense Shulk doesn't do too badly, as if she can't gimp him he's living for ages. Meanwhile one well placed smash attack in rage will kill her at 80, while you're chilling at 180. Now of course Shulk still loses the matchup but it could be much worse.

 

[Berserker.]

It could have been worse indeed, but I don't think it's Fox-levels of bad (his jab didn't get nerfed, WHY). The fact that Shulk is able to survive insanely long (especially with shield), and possibly kill Sheik with one clean good read with smash art (combined with rage) really helps. That and buster art is actually not a "suicide art" since most of Sheik's attack deal <5% damage so the damage difference would usually be a decimal or 1%. You can still cheese her out any with jump art combos, so there's that! This match up is a pain though because Sheik needs to make a mistake at neutral which is difficult because Sheik's moves lack (or have no) commitment. Make things worse, Shulk isn't exactly the best punisher of all time. What makes this match up not a free curbstomp (imo -1 or -2) is the profit/damage output he gets from finally landing a string against Sheik in buster or jump art, Sheik's inability to KO+rage are favored against her, and Shulk's range, and off-stage game being amazing. Jump art is going to be really important for dealing with her edgeguards (Needles to bouncing fish, be careful with that). Shield art is really useless though because even if the hitsun is near non-existent, you can't punish Sheik anyway despite that because her frame data is leagues above Shulk's.

It's still a match up you can win by making a few good reads. It's not impossible imo. Just uphill. I'll admit, my record against good Sheiks isn't that good but, I've taken games from them too.

 

[DavemanCozy]

B-air nerf is not really a nerf, imo, now she lost another KO move but got another combo move (as if she needed more).

The fact that Sheik has built-in L-cancelling with great running and walking speed while Shulk suffers horrid lag using aerials and won't be moving much without monados still puts this as a solid advantage for Sheik in my book.

 

[Berserker.]

This match up still sucks. Just pray that the player ****s up in the neutral somehow. She can still edgeguard Shulk if killing won't work. You still aren't hopeless though. You can tip the tides of the battle (wow that sounded cheesy) to your favor once you actually land a hit and keep up the pressure.

But yeah, if you bump into a Sheik in the tournament. Get ready. You either try to make good reads against your opponent or switch to another character that goes even with Sheik (Like Mario or Pikachu)

minus dos

 

[Linkmario00]

Bumping this thread because I want to know your opinion about the MU considering MALLC, which helps Shulk being punished a little less, and how customs can change the MU.

 

[Scarhi]

Bumping the thread because my gameplan for this MU has been getting better lately and I wanted to share some random tips that worked for me ^^ It's only based on my own experience, so I don't know what it's worth but I hope it can give some people some new ways of dealing with the MU

- Needles aren't too hard to get past with Speed or Jump, but you gotta be careful not to be too obvious about shielding them because most Sheiks will try to cancel them and dash grab you whenever they see a shielding pattern.

- In the neutral, whenever we are not using Jump we'll have to play the grounded/short hop game that Sheik loves so much.
Like, if she hits your shield with a spaced Fair you have no oos options that'll outspeed her jab or ftilt so you shouldn't let that happen. If she short hops towards you in the neutral and looks like she's going to use Fair, a good way not to get trapped in your shield is to roll behind her and punish with jab. If she reads it, well she's still in the air and can only hit you with Bair which is not a big deal. If you read the timing of her short hop, you can also punish it directly with Utilt.
Anyway once you stop her Fair approach once or twice, she'll have to keep that option in mind and will be less confident in her Fair approaches for the rest of the match which is really good for us ^^
But really, our shield loses so much to her pressure game that our best bet is to mix up our rolls and jumps OoS and to eventually take advantage of the fact that she'll be expecting a roll or something xD

- Whenever you're above Sheik and it looks like she wants to chase you in the air, try to put some horizontal distance between you and her. Fair is good for covering yourself against Bouncing Fish attempts but if you feel that you won't be able to use it in time, just airdodge. It takes some time to get used to but once you remember the spacing Sheik needs to be at to use her Bouncing Fish, you should be able to time your airdodge or aerial so that when it ends you're already too low for her to punish you. Try to reset the situation. Don't be afraid to go for the ledge. It's still better than getting hit by a Uair or a Fair > BF combo.

- Regarding Bouncing Fish, most Sheiks will only use it when you're in the air but if they try to use it to hit you while you're grounded, you shouldn't shield but rather spotdodge or roll. It's way easier to punish Sheik that way

- If you're gonna punish Sheik's landings, you need to account for her double jump and her Bouncing Fish that can both be used to escape disadvantage. If you're near Sheik when she lands, she'll probably throw out an aerial. (no need to airdodge when you got dat juicy frame data) I'd recommend outspacing it by throwing a Utilt first or by spacing an aerial, an Ftilt or an Fsmash, but you might also be able to dash in to mess with her spacing and shieldgrab her. Shulk's dash > shield transition is pretty slow though so I wouldn't count on it.

- When I'm at lowish% I just stick to Speed/Buster. Smash and Shield might be good but she can really play the keepaway game against these and if she knows when to stop comboing us she'll still deal much more damage than us while staying safe. I feel that the Shield/Smash at low% strategy mostly works against Sheiks who don't know the MU too well because it throws off their habits.

- When you're around 60-80%, don't use Smash. The increased knockback gives Sheik her kill set-ups that are supposed to work from 100%, such as the Dthrow 50/50 or sourspot Nair > Bouncing Fish. Just stick to Speed/Buster/Jump. Shield will give her back her low% combos so it might not be a good idea if you wanna keep stage control.

- From 80% to 100-110%, whenever she Dthrows you, don't airdodge right away. Uair won't kill you but UpB will, so just get hit by the Uair, or wait for the upB animation before airdodging.

- By the way, at any% just DI her throws away from her. There's no reason not to, she can't kill you with a throw ^^

- When you're at 100+%, and if you don't need to rack up any more damage you can start using Smash. Smash is REALLY GOOD in this situation. Her kill setups won't work on you anymore, so if you play carefully you shouldn't die early. Smash is your Shield art in this MU. (if you get Dthrown just double jump)
At these percentages I also like to use Jump. Jump makes it easier to avoid the kill. It allows us to escape disadvantage more easily by simply double jumping, and the increased falling speed and air speed make Shulk really hard to catch (I managed to escape a Dthrow > upB once even though I airdodged early, thanks to Jump's increased falling speed). Switching between Smash and Jump makes us really hard to kill for Sheik while still putting constant pressure on her.

Here's a little summary about how I use Monado Arts against Sheik:

Shulk 0-80%, Sheik 0-80%: Speed/Buster
Shulk 80%+, Sheik 0-80%: Jump/Buster/Speed
Shulk 0-60%, Sheik 80%+: Smash/Speed
Shulk 60-100%, Sheik 80%+: Speed/Jump
Shulk 100%+, Sheik 80%+: Smash/Jump

Arts are ordered by priority.
Of course, don't hesitate to change arts when you're at a positional advantage/disadvantage (switch to Jump in order to recover, etc.)

Some random thoughts on stages:

Battlefield: Don't go there. If Sheik takes control of the stage, it's really hard to take it back and you're in for an 80% ride. Oh, and she can kill you at like 70% with Usmash if you land on a platform.

Smashville: One of her best stages, if she comboes you above the moving platform and makes you land on it, you can eat a Bouncing Fish and die early. The moving platform is really good for Sheik.

Town and City: Not as bad as Battlefield and Smashville. The smaller blastzones might help us more than they help her if we deny her access to her kill setups by using Smash art in a smart way. If we get Dthrown we might end up in a situation where airdodging makes us land on one of the high platforms though, which is a very bad situation so...you might want to be careful about that

Final Destination: Sheik is good on all neutral stages but FD is probably our best bet since her only advantage there is being able to camp better with the Needles. Shulk doesn't lose too hard to Needles thanks to the mobility Arts, so I feel it's pretty good for us.

Lylat Cruise: I have played only once against a Sheik on Lylat and it was hard as hell. But it might've been due to my lack on experience on the stage so...I don't really know, it seems like a stage I would strike though.

I have very little experience for this MU on other stages so I'll just give some thoughts and assumptions

Duck Hunt: Kinda similar to FD so I guess it's a pretty good choice.

Defino/Castle Siege: I feel that these two stages are good because we have a lot more room to run around Sheik. Taking back stage control is easier than on small stages (and it's important since Sheik's going to win the neutral most of the time) and we can really take advantage of Jump art's increased air speed, especially on Delfino. On the other hand, Sheik's combos are very horizontal so she can probably take advantage of the walkoffs.

Halberd: I honestly have no idea. It might be the kind of stage that's not good enough for us to CP it but not bad enough for Sheik to CP it against us.

Dreamland: Mostly the same problems as Battlefield :/


So yeah, that's how I've been playing the Sheik MU recently. Any thoughts?

...wow, this post ended up bigger than I imagined. Should I use spoiler tags?

 

[Berserker.]

Halberd and Lylat are bad for Shulk. Do NOT bring Sheik to Lylat. Ever. Halberd is also bad since her d-throw > up-air will kill us earlier. Also, shield art is fine in a certain way such that if the Sheik is aware of what happens when she hits or throws Shulk in shield art, she'll run away and play campy so you'll get the breathing room you need

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Bumping the thread because my gameplan for this MU has been getting better lately and I wanted to share some random tips that worked for me ^^ It's only based on my own experience, so I don't know what it's worth but I hope it can give some people some new ways of dealing with the MU

- Needles aren't too hard to get past with Speed or Jump, but you gotta be careful not to be too obvious about shielding them because most Sheiks will try to cancel them and dash grab you whenever they see a shielding pattern.

- In the neutral, whenever we are not using Jump we'll have to play the grounded/short hop game that Sheik loves so much.
Like, if she hits your shield with a spaced Fair you have no oos options that'll outspeed her jab or ftilt so you shouldn't let that happen. If she short hops towards you in the neutral and looks like she's going to use Fair, a good way not to get trapped in your shield is to roll behind her and punish with jab. If she reads it, well she's still in the air and can only hit you with Bair which is not a big deal. If you read the timing of her short hop, you can also punish it directly with Utilt.
Anyway once you stop her Fair approach once or twice, she'll have to keep that option in mind and will be less confident in her Fair approaches for the rest of the match which is really good for us ^^
But really, our shield loses so much to her pressure game that our best bet is to mix up our rolls and jumps OoS and to eventually take advantage of the fact that she'll be expecting a roll or something xD

- Whenever you're above Sheik and it looks like she wants to chase you in the air, try to put some horizontal distance between you and her. Fair is good for covering yourself against Bouncing Fish attempts but if you feel that you won't be able to use it in time, just airdodge. It takes some time to get used to but once you remember the spacing Sheik needs to be at to use her Bouncing Fish, you should be able to time your airdodge or aerial so that when it ends you're already too low for her to punish you. Try to reset the situation. Don't be afraid to go for the ledge. It's still better than getting hit by a Uair or a Fair > BF combo.

- Regarding Bouncing Fish, most Sheiks will only use it when you're in the air but if they try to use it to hit you while you're grounded, you shouldn't shield but rather spotdodge or roll. It's way easier to punish Sheik that way

- If you're gonna punish Sheik's landings, you need to account for her double jump and her Bouncing Fish that can both be used to escape disadvantage. If you're near Sheik when she lands, she'll probably throw out an aerial. (no need to airdodge when you got dat juicy frame data) I'd recommend outspacing it by throwing a Utilt first or by spacing an aerial, an Ftilt or an Fsmash, but you might also be able to dash in to mess with her spacing and shieldgrab her. Shulk's dash > shield transition is pretty slow though so I wouldn't count on it.

- When I'm at lowish% I just stick to Speed/Buster. Smash and Shield might be good but she can really play the keepaway game against these and if she knows when to stop comboing us she'll still deal much more damage than us while staying safe. I feel that the Shield/Smash at low% strategy mostly works against Sheiks who don't know the MU too well because it throws off their habits.

- When you're around 60-80%, don't use Smash. The increased knockback gives Sheik her kill set-ups that are supposed to work from 100%, such as the Dthrow 50/50 or sourspot Nair > Bouncing Fish. Just stick to Speed/Buster/Jump. Shield will give her back her low% combos so it might not be a good idea if you wanna keep stage control.

- From 80% to 100-110%, whenever she Dthrows you, don't airdodge right away. Uair won't kill you but UpB will, so just get hit by the Uair, or wait for the upB animation before airdodging.

- By the way, at any% just DI her throws away from her. There's no reason not to, she can't kill you with a throw ^^

- When you're at 100+%, and if you don't need to rack up any more damage you can start using Smash. Smash is REALLY GOOD in this situation. Her kill setups won't work on you anymore, so if you play carefully you shouldn't die early. Smash is your Shield art in this MU. (if you get Dthrown just double jump)
At these percentages I also like to use Jump. Jump makes it easier to avoid the kill. It allows us to escape disadvantage more easily by simply double jumping, and the increased falling speed and air speed make Shulk really hard to catch (I managed to escape a Dthrow > upB once even though I airdodged early, thanks to Jump's increased falling speed). Switching between Smash and Jump makes us really hard to kill for Sheik while still putting constant pressure on her.

Here's a little summary about how I use Monado Arts against Sheik:

Shulk 0-80%, Sheik 0-80%: Speed/Buster
Shulk 80%+, Sheik 0-80%: Jump/Buster/Speed
Shulk 0-60%, Sheik 80%+: Smash/Speed
Shulk 60-100%, Sheik 80%+: Speed/Jump
Shulk 100%+, Sheik 80%+: Smash/Jump

Arts are ordered by priority.
Of course, don't hesitate to change arts when you're at a positional advantage/disadvantage (switch to Jump in order to recover, etc.)

Some random thoughts on stages:

Battlefield: Don't go there. If Sheik takes control of the stage, it's really hard to take it back and you're in for an 80% ride. Oh, and she can kill you at like 70% with Usmash if you land on a platform.

Smashville: One of her best stages, if she comboes you above the moving platform and makes you land on it, you can eat a Bouncing Fish and die early. The moving platform is really good for Sheik.

Town and City: Not as bad as Battlefield and Smashville. The smaller blastzones might help us more than they help her if we deny her access to her kill setups by using Smash art in a smart way. If we get Dthrown we might end up in a situation where airdodging makes us land on one of the high platforms though, which is a very bad situation so...you might want to be careful about that

Final Destination: Sheik is good on all neutral stages but FD is probably our best bet since her only advantage there is being able to camp better with the Needles. Shulk doesn't lose too hard to Needles thanks to the mobility Arts, so I feel it's pretty good for us.

Lylat Cruise: I have played only once against a Sheik on Lylat and it was hard as hell. But it might've been due to my lack on experience on the stage so...I don't really know, it seems like a stage I would strike though.

I have very little experience for this MU on other stages so I'll just give some thoughts and assumptions

Duck Hunt: Kinda similar to FD so I guess it's a pretty good choice.

Defino/Castle Siege: I feel that these two stages are good because we have a lot more room to run around Sheik. Taking back stage control is easier than on small stages (and it's important since Sheik's going to win the neutral most of the time) and we can really take advantage of Jump art's increased air speed, especially on Delfino. On the other hand, Sheik's combos are very horizontal so she can probably take advantage of the walkoffs.

Halberd: I honestly have no idea. It might be the kind of stage that's not good enough for us to CP it but not bad enough for Sheik to CP it against us.

Dreamland: Mostly the same problems as Battlefield :/


So yeah, that's how I've been playing the Sheik MU recently. Any thoughts?

...wow, this post ended up bigger than I imagined. Should I use spoiler tags?

Thanks a lot for this guide!

 

[Masonomace]

Wait. . .why would Lylat be bad for Shulk in the Sheik MU?? Perhaps I didn't get the memo on that one, but Lylat's tilt will disrupt Sheik's needle camp. Jump & Speed utilizing the tilts of either the floor or the outer platforms allows Shulk to slide further across the surface in hopes of avoiding oos punishes from behind Sheik's shield.

When it comes to Shield art's defensive capabilities, whether you have percentage lead or stock lead, you can crouch on a downward tilt or wherever onstage that Sheik couldn't camp with needles from afar. Shield art crouching not only reduces Shulk's height & hurtbox but also resists against knockback much more to the point you never die, as long as you DI the move upon being hit.

 

[Scarhi]

Wait. . .why would Lylat be bad for Shulk in the Sheik MU?? Perhaps I didn't get the memo on that one, but Lylat's tilt will disrupt Sheik's needle camp. Jump & Speed utilizing the tilts of either the floor or the outer platforms allows Shulk to slide further across the surface in hopes of avoiding oos punishes from behind Sheik's shield.

I still don't have enough experience on Lylat so it's all theory but I fear that the platform layout may work too much in Sheik's favor (by making her stage control very strong and preventing us from landing as safely as on other stages). I feel like the tilting helps us a lot in the neutral game but the platforms may help her just as much when she has a positional advantage. *someone with more Lylat experience would be more suited than me to talk about it though, I'm just theorizing so I can't be sure of how the pros and the cons actually compare with each other xD*

However! There is one other stage where we can take advantage of the slants and tilting: Castle Siege! (well, the 1st and 3rd transformation actually ^^ But the 2nd transformation has statues that also stop the needles iirc)
I actually hadn't tried to CP it until very recently but playing the neutral game against Sheik on CS feels really good exactly for the reasons you listed for Lylat, Mace ^^ Also, if we have the upper ground, it's becomes easier to stop her short hop approaches.