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Sheik ditto help.

Sonic94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
138
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The Internet.
I hate the sheik ditto. Normally as sheik I can eather turn them into combo fodder, gimp them, or camp with the needles but sheik herself is impossible to combo, impossible to gimp, and has the same camping tools as me so it is always a frustrating stale mate that lasts for ever. How do I beat other sheiks using sheik?
 

Duplighost

Smash Ace
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Feb 23, 2015
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605
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Creepy Steeple
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Beating another Sheik using Sheik? Ah... that's a tough one. Honestly, there is no specific answer. Arguably, that's like asking, "how do you beat a Sonic using Sonic?" I mean, it all boils down to who does better in the end.
 

Sonic94

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 7, 2015
Messages
138
Location
The Internet.
Beating another Sheik using Sheik? Ah... that's a tough one. Honestly, there is no specific answer. Arguably, that's like asking, "how do you beat a Sonic using Sonic?" I mean, it all boils down to who does better in the end.
Actually there is more to it then that.
Take a little Mac ditto for an obvious example.
 

Duplighost

Smash Ace
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Feb 23, 2015
Messages
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Creepy Steeple
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Actually there is more to it then that.
Take a little Mac ditto for an obvious example.
Elaborate, please? The characters have exactly the same moves, defenses, and capabilities. Doesn't it just rely on who's the better player and who plays better mind games? Since there is no ambiguity on "which character is better than the other," then...? Sorry, I just don't quite understand what you are trying to say here.
 

BlastHappyNinja

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
93
Location
Warren, Michigan
Generally speaking, the Sheik to attack second is USUALLY the one to land the hit, lol. In the ditto, if the opposing Sheik uses B-fish and bounces off of your shield, if you chase and time it right, you can get a sweetspot Usmash while they're in the air still. Nair is an amazing tool for breaking out of combo strings and retreating bairs and fairs are also useful. Just trying to throw out as much advice as I can here, because we have two or three other Sheiks in my state and I'm trying to study the ditto myself.
 

Sean de Lure

Smash Apprentice
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Feb 5, 2015
Messages
90
3DS FC
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Sheik has the 9th fastest fall speed, if you cant combo her you are doing something wrong.
If you gimp a sheik they messed up, but that goes for other characters like pika. You shouldn't be relying on gimps that much for kills anyway (unless mac lol)
If a sheik is camping you, you probably have the lead. You can shield needles if you are far away and jump over them and punish if you are close. If you somehow fail at that, stand on platforms and you can charge needles for free. They'll have to approach or land on the other platform to shoot needles, plenty of time to react. If you don't have a lead, then approach via platforms. I feel like a camping sheik in a ditto should lose.
I think the biggest problem you are having is you don't know how to combo well, practice comboing sheik.
If you want to see good sheik dittos:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWp_xZziyQqb6Tumr2VgM3A/videos
This is fire & dice's channel, a couple weeks back Mr. R, Vinnie, and VoiD were all there and I really enjoyed watching their sheik dittos.
Take my advice, leave my advice, do whatever you want, but if anything to take from my post, watch the videos (cause I think my advice wasn't the best).
 

gsmVoiD

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 8, 2014
Messages
38
Location
Hawaii
So for the most part, I'm going to try and keep what I say as "on paper" as possible (Not counting playstyles, just what does what). Afterwards, I'll elaborate with my own personal bias and experience on whatever I'm talking about.

So the most important, elaborate part about Sheik dittos is the neutral game.

No it's not about whoever does the craziest combos.
No it's not about whoever can net the kill first.
If you lose the neutral game, you'll most likely lose the ditto.

This doesn't go to say that if you're currently losing the neutral, then you'll lose the game. It's ALWAYS possible to bring it back in a Sheik ditto. As long as you adapt accordingly, you can begin to win the neutral and snowball that in to winning the game. There are a couple of important aspects to the neutral that I would say makes the biggest difference in Sheik dittos:

What % I'm at, What % My opponent is at & who has full charges of needles.
The reasoning behind this is when you're both at low %, you can both combo each other really hard. When one person is at high %, they are at threat of dying, but they have rage meaning they both lose combos & can kill the other Sheik easier. The factor of Needles forces the other Sheik to approach the one with needles because they don't want to eat a free 10%. Needles also gives Sheik a kill setup when edge guarding so that's another strength needles gives.

^ From my experiences having fully charged needles is free % because you can keep it to punish a landing. It also gives you a safe follow up and forces any Sheik to recover low if they're at kill %. If they don't / they bouncing fish to the ledge punish it with Full hop Needles > Bouncing Fish.

IMPORTANT: A big thing to notice is what Sheik is approaching and what Sheik is reacting. The reacting Sheik will usually have the upper hand, unless the approaching Sheik repeatedly wins the neutral. Probably like 55-45 Reacting Sheik's Favor.

With that out of the way let's explain how the neutral game works in this matchup.

Things to note & watch out for / things to exploit and use

Tomahawk, Dash grab, Shield out of dash / Dash shielding (idk the term LOL), Fair oos, Nair oos, and Fair

Tomahawks are used to condition your opponent to stop shielding meaning your fairs will work more often than not.
Same thing goes for dash grabs. Getting a raw grab seems impossible, but Sheik has such high mobility in simply the way she moves meaning these work very effectively. After getting a grab you can do the usual f throw bouncing fish. Going for a raw grab is risky though since you can just hit confirm into grab, so watch out.

Fair & Nair oos are used to combat Fair & tomahawks. Used in conjunction with dash shielding, this is a very easy way to react to an opponent trying to do something to you. Fair oos has followups, but you are stuck in fair animation for a long time so dont miss. Nair oos has virtually no followups but starts 2 frames earlier and has a wider hitbox inside of Sheik making it a better defensive tool.

Sheik's Fair is probably what makes this matchup so in depth & knowing how to beat it and use it is very important. The reasoning behind this is fair leads to grab. Fair is also a very difficult move to beat due to it's spacing. If a Sheik starts jumping, it's likely she'll go for the fair. The ways to stop this are either shield the fair and punish accordingly, or hit sheik before the fair comes out. Both of these options are difficult due to the fact that if you shield drop to punish the fair, the other sheik can fair you first and get a followup off of that. If you sit in shield waiting for the fair, the sheik can tomahawk and get a grab, leading to a follow up. It's all about conditioning and what you think the opponent will do to you.

A lot of people say Smash is just high paced Rock Paper Scissors. Sheik dittos are the exact same way.

Sorry if I feel like I'm only explaining what the opponent can do to you/what you can do to the opponent for certain situations, because it does work both ways and I'm hoping you can see it that way too.

After the neutral game comes the combo/punish game, and ways to kill. I'll cover the combo game first since this will kind of be in chronological order of how a stock flows.

So there's your stereotypical combos of: Fair > Bouncing Fish, F throw > Bouncing Fish, Fair > Grab, F Tilt > Grab for majority of the %, F tilt > Nair, Fair > Bouncing Fish around mid %, then kill setups at later %. Learning these and not missing these are important. The more you can get out of a small amount of combo opportunities is very important.

In the ditto specifically, one of your best low % combos will be Fair > Grab > F Throw > REACT TO DI
If the DI in : > Fair, Fair, Fair > Regrab > F throw > Bouncing Fish
If they Di Away: >Fair, Fair, Regrab > F throw > Bouncing Fish.

Sheik's combos are what swings momentum in one Sheik's favor. Winning the neutral game gives Sheik combo opportunities. Knowing how to optimize with less combos means you have to win the neutral game less times to get the opponent to kill %s. Learn your combos, but focus on the neutral game first.

Lastly is killing with Sheik. A lot of people say that the Sheik that takes the first stock is very far ahead of the other Sheik, I don't really agree if the other Sheik is in kill percentage. Spawning in gives you free stage control and you can very easily snowball that into killing the other Sheik. I also don't think that the Sheik with the higher % is necessarily "behind." Being at higher % means you lose combos, but you probably have more combos than the person you're facing and you can use those combos to get stage control and net a kill on the opponent.

The obvious way to kill with Sheik is D throw > Uair. Down throw is an absurdly good move and forces your opponent to either airdodge or do nothing and either of these can lose to a correctly timed Uair. You can probably watch some high level Sheik games and learn how to use this to your advantage. Explaining it is difficult :\ This will also work with F tilt / Tipper D Tilt (Sweet Spot / the toes/feet not her leg).

The next way is FH Needles > Bouncing Fish. Hit this on an opponent recovering and they're most likely dead. That's about it in this department.

The crazier way to fight a Sheik and kill is punishing a Nair / an airdodge with an Up Smash. During Up Smash, Sheik's hands and her head become invincible meaning it is impossible to trade with this move from above. If you put a Sheik in that situation and they Nair/Airdodge, Up smash can kill as early as 80% with a good amount of rage on you.

All of these kill setups are good, and of course there's more, but I think it's easier to learn them on your own from watching a video / personal experience. But like I said before, kill setups come after combos. Combos come after the Neutral game. If your neutral game is amazing, you have a good chance at winning the ditto. You can ALWAYS work on your neutral game.

Neutral game being: Spacing on Fair, what options you choose, how you recover, how you regain stage control, how you abuse your own stage control.

Don't worry about if you win a match or if you lose a match, think about what lead to what. The more you think about your matches, the more you can learn about how to improve. Always ask what could you have done better.

I wrote this with the intention of being easy to understand, so if you're confused on something or want me to elaborate on something just ask.

Note: Reaction speed plays a huge role in both the ditto and playing Sheik, so try to work on that.
 
Last edited:

KingChaos

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 5, 2008
Messages
494
Location
Ohio
Started reading your guide on the Sheik ditto Void. I'm impressed and have been looking for something like this lately to help me get that edge especially on people who think they can just have a pocket sheik to counter us mains. They have no idea how complex that match up gets and it comes down to the discipline and dedication of the sheik main. Knowing all your options and spacing is key or you will get thrashed by game 3. I have noticed this and with your explanation I know understand why that was thank you for this in depth analysis. Hope you continue to add to it as I found it very helpful.
 
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