SHDFing (No, I'm not asking how to do it)

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

I'm pretty sure that SHDFing topics are made all the time, but I have two questions (that Search couldn't answer for me)

How plausible is SHDFing with the C-stick? Everyone says, "use the A button", but when I try to SHDF, my thumb ends up jamming up (moving too fast or too slow). For example, sometimes I move my thumb too fast, and I end up regular hopping instead of SHing. If I move too fast, it simply doesn't work.

And my second question is "How important is SHDFing or SHDF->Uing to Marth's game?" My friend who is better than me at smash (and is pretty good) has told me that SHDF isn't really important at all, same with my other friend. Someone else I know though said that it's VERY important to Marth's game.

 

[FluxWolf]

It is extremely important actually... And the reason your thumb jams up and it "simply doesn't work" is because it requires practice and repetition and is done with pure muscle memory. Just practice practice practice, it doesn't matter what way you do it be it the A button, Z, or C stick just which ever way you find most comfortable.

 

[ArcNatural]

A lot of people will tell you different about shdf tactics. I find they are only really useful (to me) when shield pressuring or in the middle of a combo. Both of those methods have other methods as well. I find them useful, just not incredibly important. But I wouldn't recommend not learning how to do them properly. By all means you should learn to shdf easily in both directions before deciding how often you plan to use it.

I tend to use A for the first fair, then the c-stick. I have the same problem you do when I try to use Y to jump instead of X. With X I have no problems, with Y I can hit jump -> A too fast and empty sh. I recommend trying to use the "precise thumb" where you press the button with the tip of your thumb rather than sliding your thumb. This can help with muscle memory.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

Argh. Using A for SHDF is so uncomfortable. I guess I'm going to have to get used to it just like how I got used to the x-button. The thing that pisses me off though is that here, I read something about C-stick being better than A and I switched, and now it's like "Use A to SHDF"

Now time to go stare blankly at the TV while practicing with a controller in hand.

 

[SOPF]

When using the SHDF I find it much easier to use the c-stick for both Fairs. I can perform the technique in either direction this way, although IMO SHDF is a situational and secondary part of my Marth game. I have noticed, sorry if this offends anyone or whatever, that it's mainly lower level Marths who find the SHDF to be a primary part of their game. Like Arcnatural said, it helps when applying pressure to a shielding opponent or continuing a combo, it can even help as an OCCASIONAL approach so you don't form a pattern, but it's in no way the most or one of the most important aspects of Marth use (IMO).
But my playing style will always be different from that of another's and I'm not saying don't learn how to SHDF because IMO you must become adept at all technical skills with a character to master him/her, but I don't think of it to be as neccesary as your friend made it out to be.

 

[Giggidax]

yea its not that important, but its great for comboing characters in mid percents. SHDF > utilt is a great combo btw

wat u really need to learn is when to shdf, and when to jus shffl a fair. some people spam shdf's and get annihilated. some situations it is better to just shffl fair > fsmash instead of shdf > watever.

btw, if u move ur finger too fast, u end up doing a full hop? i would think that u would accidently SH if u press jump fast. I myself use both the c-stick and the A button.
sometimes if i want to DI full forwards. i just use the A button. but the c-stick is very useful if ur spacing with DI while shdf'ing.
blah.. ya

 

[knightpraetor]

ya, SHDF is crazy good for comboing in certain matchups..just don't get into the n00b trap that so many including me fell for..which is using SHDF as a staple approach..it's good for shield pressure for time to time..but use it a lot and you'll start getting read...mainly because of all the hang time in the air

 

[maXXXpower]

Argh. Using A for SHDF is so uncomfortable. I guess I'm going to have to get used to it just like how I got used to the x-button. The thing that pisses me off though is that here, I read something about C-stick being better than A and I switched, and now it's like "Use A to SHDF"

Now time to go stare blankly at the TV while practicing with a controller in hand.

X Button?!?! It's all about Y, *****.

 

[AS Money]

the x button is the way to go

the only one i like SHDF is against sheik at into tipper

other than that there are usually better options

 

[TemPesT-]

btw, if u move ur finger too fast, u end up doing a full hop? i would think that u would accidently SH if u press jump fast.

i'm pretty sure he means he tries to go faster, but just pushes the button harder and faster, i used to do that when i was learning.

 

[Imperial Wraith]

A for the first one, C - Stick for the second, due to spacing, And no, it's not important to Marths game. Its decent for comboing and shield pressuring, but generally single fairs are better.

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

G-Mo, why did you bump my dead topic? >__>

 

[_fenix_pa_]

X Button?!?! It's all about Y, *****.

lol... lol (true tho)

 

[maXXXpower]

Because of the abomination that is the X Button.

 

[unrealperson4564]

It works good on n00bs and people who don't DI well. It can be easily countered by people who are half decent though.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

want to know a secret nobody will tell you? dont listen to anyone, think for yourself... wait did i just contradict myself?

anyways, what i mean is, if you find it useful, use it. if not, dont. you dont have to play like ken to be good. style is everything, and trying to imitate a style isnt that good because you dont know all the reasons. its similar to something my philosophy professor said, "its not truth if you have no evidence. it might be correct, but unless you know WHY its correct you dont know it to be true". you can do something, but unless you know WHY you are doing it, it could be wrong and you dont know. if you think the problem through yourself, you will see many many different solutions and you can pick your favorite, and if/when that fails you can switch it up and not lose because you didnt copy it, you found it out yourself.

i dont know if that was all clear, but just think about it.

edit::

oh yea, something i forgot to say, don't be quick to ask for answers. asking for help right away without thinking weakens your mind and crushes your style. if you can spend and hour thinking about it and trying it out to no avail then id say watch some vids for a few things you can do. if you still cant figure it out then ask for help.

for example, say you are having problems with a SHLing falco. he spams and spams and you are finding it hard. your solution may not be just getting around the lasers, but also trying to work against his style. perhaps you could try not giving him room to laser, or finding a way to punish his lasers. what im trying to say is, think about fighting their strategy not just a certain move.

edit2::

oh yea, and when you think of a new technique, dont just ask what other people think of it because 90% of people on the boards will tell you that its not viable because ken/isai/pc chris/kdj/m2k/ect doesnt do that, and because those pros dont do it, its definitely a horrible choice. one thing ive learned is that if nobody else does it, you should do it. this will mess with people really bad, if they just play mass fsmashing marths, and you dont fsmash once, they will be at a disadvantage because they will not be expecting it and probably make a lot of mistakes.

i kinda got side tracked in that paragraph, but what i wanted to say is when you think up something that sounds like a good choice but youve never seen it before by anyone else, incorporate it into your game, and if someone finds away to beat it, find something to beat what they do, and keep doing that. thats how the metagame got to where it is today. similarly to the other parts of this post, dont just copy, figure it out for yourself. dont just copy the metagame, make the metagame.

 

[ArcNatural]

want to know a secret nobody will tell you? dont listen to anyone, think for yourself... wait did i just contradict myself?

anyways, what i mean is, if you find it useful, use it. if not, dont. you dont have to play like ken to be good. style is everything, and trying to imitate a style isnt that good because you dont know all the reasons. its similar to something my philosophy professor said, "its not truth if you have no evidence. it might be correct, but unless you know WHY its correct you dont know it to be true". you can do something, but unless you know WHY you are doing it, it could be wrong and you dont know. if you think the problem through yourself, you will see many many different solutions and you can pick your favorite, and if/when that fails you can switch it up and not lose because you didnt copy it, you found it out yourself.

This really sucks when your college gives you a formula that simplifies a cluster F*ck of problems, then for homework ask you to prove the formula *.*;

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This really sucks when your college gives you a formula that simplifies a cluster F*ck of problems, then for homework ask you to prove the formula *.*;

i dont quite understand, plus that wasnt really the point of my post at all.

 

[Dark Sonic]

i dont quite understand, plus that wasnt really the point of my post at all.

It's a joke man.

Sometimes you'll get a formula, but you're not given the proof for that formula. The formula itself helps you solve a lot of problems, but then they ask you why that formula works and you don't know.

I think what you're saying is true to an extent. Sometimes it's better to know the method without yet knowing why it works. It's always good to find out why it works later, but for the moment knowing what to do and not "why you do it" is acceptable. In that respect, it's okay to ask for advice to a problem that you've thought about for a bit and then try to figure out why the advice you were given works or doesn't work

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

It's a joke man.

Sometimes you'll get a formula, but you're not given the proof for that formula. The formula itself helps you solve a lot of problems, but then they ask you why that formula works and you don't know.

I think what you're saying is true to an extent. Sometimes it's better to know the method without yet knowing why it works. It's always good to find out why it works later, but for the moment knowing what to do and not "why you do it" is acceptable. In that respect, it's okay to ask for advice to a problem that you've thought about for a bit and then try to figure out why the advice you were given works or doesn't work

but see i disagree. knowing why is everything in this game. example: most people who pick up fox or falco early see pros doing dair->shine shield pressuring, so they copy it. if you go to the fox or falco boards and ask them why you should do that instead of jabing a shield, i think only a very small percentage could tell you. now why is this bad? if they are doing it, and its right, why does it matter if they dont understand the why?

first, let me tell you that game knowledge (real knowledge, not how many frames for this or that, but the why) is what separates the good from the best. now if you watch you will catch pcchris, m2k, and kdj jabbing shields occationally instead of shining. this is because they understand why they are shining. its not even that hard to figure out. and your mind is a muscle like anything else. if you spend that hour figuring it out for yourself, the next thing will come much much faster. actually i bet you that while you are trying to figure one thing out, you will think up a bunch of other things that are useful, but i digress. if you spend that hour and you become faster, your mind is now that much sharper, and not just in game. what im trying to say is, the fastest way to get better is to think for yourself. if you ask for help on the boards, you can easily fall victim to reliance, letting them tell you how to play, and lose your creative and mental edge, pretty much your best tool in life, and almost your only tool in this game.

edit:: oh yea, and any decent math teacher will at least walk you through the formulas to prove to you how they work... if you actually follow and dont sleep or something, you will learn and understand and be able to modify them when needed and your math skills will go up a lot. this stuff im talking about is not just about smash, its life advice. you can spend your whole life taking someone's word for things, but when you look back you will realize you dont really know anything, save for a few jeopardy questions.. 'tis a big problem in this world IMO

 

[Illos]

^Incidentally, when is jabbing better than pillaring for shield pressure?

 

[AS Money]

well this is a marth forum but lets say you jab at the sheild a couple of times they stay in the sheild then just grab them this is better than pillering the sheild

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

^Incidentally, when is jabbing better than pillaring for shield pressure?

why not think of it yourself? try thinking of the pros and cons of both and going from there. if you are having problems still, perhaps you could think about characters like sheik and falcon who have no shine.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

well this is a marth forum but lets say you jab at the sheild a couple of times they stay in the sheild then just grab them this is better than pillering the sheild

stop just telling them!!!!!!!!!!! AHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! T_T lol luckily this is just one application, not the whole reason.

 

[AS Money]

it is the one i use the most then again i am a grabaholic(WTF?) with any character

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it is the one i use the most then again i am a grabaholic(WTF?) with any character

me too lol. thats why my falco and fox are not as good as my falcon, marth and sheik. i like grabbing too much lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

first, let me tell you that game knowledge (real knowledge, not how many frames for this or that, but the why) is what separates the good from the best. now if you watch you will catch pcchris, m2k, and kdj jabbing shields occationally instead of shining. this is because they understand why they are shining. its not even that hard to figure out. and your mind is a muscle like anything else. if you spend that hour figuring it out for yourself, the next thing will come much much faster. actually i bet you that while you are trying to figure one thing out, you will think up a bunch of other things that are useful, but i digress. if you spend that hour and you become faster, your mind is now that much sharper, and not just in game. what im trying to say is, the fastest way to get better is to think for yourself. if you ask for help on the boards, you can easily fall victim to reliance, letting them tell you how to play, and lose your creative and mental edge, pretty much your best tool in life, and almost your only tool in this game.

edit:: oh yea, and any decent math teacher will at least walk you through the formulas to prove to you how they work... if you actually follow and dont sleep or something, you will learn and understand and be able to modify them when needed and your math skills will go up a lot. this stuff im talking about is not just about smash, its life advice. you can spend your whole life taking someone's word for things, but when you look back you will realize you dont really know anything, save for a few jeopardy questions.. 'tis a big problem in this world IMO

I agree that it's important to know why you are doing something, but you don't neccessarily need to understand why you do it right away. In fact in Calculus, my teacher taught us the rull for finding derivitives long before explaining what a derivitive even was. That's because the rull itself was easier to understand than the situation that rule describes. I think that translates a little to smash. Most Foxes and Falcos will shine or dash away after hitting your shield with an aerial without knowing why right of the bat. They quickly learn why they do it when they do take the time to think about it, but that doesn't mean they were wrong to do it before hand. Sometimes you need to see a technique or strategy in action in order to understand why it works. That's why I think it's okay to learn the technique now and figure it out later.

I'm in no way saying that they shouldn't think about different techniques on their own, but sometimes another person's opinion can be a valuable asset.

 

[ArcNatural]

While as I was joking and I felt your thread was informative. You kind of made a hypocrite out of yourself. If it's so important for you to figure out things for yourself, why should a math teacher walk you through it? If anything he shouldn't do anything at all and have you think of it yourself.

Anyone will learn things much better and how little changes will affect what happens by figuring it out for themselves.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Was that aimed at me or him?

 

[ArcNatural]

Aimed at Sveet. I was just pointing out I was joking. And that he posted a double standard when he replied D:

So you got right that I was joking about what Sveet was talking about. I believe Sveet's concept would make a lot of smashers better if they tried to figure things out themselves.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Aimed at Sveet. I was just pointing out I was joking. And that he posted a double standard when he replied D:

So you got right that I was joking about what Sveet was talking about. I believe Sveet's concept would make a lot of smashers better if they tried to figure things out themselves.

not really. walking them through it, while giving the answer, also shows all proofs for the answer. while this isnt the best, it is a lot better than "this is it and trust me that it works". also i believe i said something along the lines of "a decent teacher will at least walk you through it" key part being "at least".