Shades make it 100/0 - Squirtle Matchup Discussion

[dettadeus]

thanks to Juu for the OP layout

• Strong Disadvantage:

• Disadvantage:

• Slight Disadvantage:

• Even:

• Slight Advantage:

• Advantage:

• Strong Advantage:

Bowser - 
Captain Falcon - 
Charizard - 
King DeDeDe - 
Diddy Kong -
Donkey Kong
Falco -
Fox - 
Mr. Game & Watch - 
Ganondorf - 
Ike - 
Ivysaur - 
Jigglypuff - 
Link - 
Lucario - 
Lucas - 
Luigi - 
Mario - 
Marth - 
Ness - 
Peach -
Pikachu - 
Pit - 
R.O.B.
Sheik -
Sheilda - 
Snake - 
Sonic - 
Squirtle - Even
Toon Link - 
Wario - 
Wolf - 
Zelda -
Zero Suit Samus -

 

[standardtoaster]

let's start with vs marth. what does squirtle do against him in general? it seems like marth has soo many things over him and easily gimps squirtle.

 

[Translucent]

I don't know much about the Marth matchup other than what I've heard. I think you need to exploit his wavedash and overall mobility to the fullest to be able to deal with Marth's massive range. I don't know how well Bubble would gimp Marth, but otherwise not many gimping tools against him. I think the key thing to do is get Marth in the air above you so you can start juggles with either u-tilt, u-air, and up-smash. It seems like it's difficult for Squirtle, I'm not sure how much, but definitely in Marth's favor by some amount.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I haven't played the Marth matchup, but it seems to me that what you'd want to do is wait until you get an opening, then quickly hit him with withdraw or bubble, and combo from there. You can also take advantage of water gun's range against him, since (I think) it outranges most of his moves.

It seems to me like, as a character with fast speed and low range, squirtle's going to struggle against characters with range, and I feel like those matchups will revolve around good use of Withdraw/Water Gun/Bubble.

 

[dettadeus]

I've only played the matchup once, but I'd have to assume you have to seriously abuse your mobility options to do anything. Force him to miss a move then hydroplane into him and start something. Bubble would be a godsend because it goes through his moves and has enough range to be safe against Marth. SH Watergun would probably actually mess with his SH Fair. Juggle him like there's no tomorrow because you're not going to get many horizontal combos in considering his range.
Just looking at the characters in general I'd say Marth probably wins, but Squirtle should be able to keep it close.

 

[standardtoaster]

I'll try to record some of monk's squirtle against my marth soon. I think it might be a bit easier to figure out matchups if we have some vids to show what to do/not to do in a matchup.

 

[Eaode]

I just typed up a huge essay about Squirtle v. Wario but then it got deleted because I accidentally dragged text onto chrome....

will retype later when I'm less salty about it......

:/

 

[Translucent]

After watching Toaster play against Marth, it seems like once you get in with Squirtle, he can wreck Marth up close. Juggles are great, and downsmash is overall a solid move to get Marth in the air. Marth can gimp Squirtle SO WELL though... But it seems that bubble can do a pretty good job against Marth's recovery. Squirtle just needs to get in close to Marth, otherwise Marth can keep him out with fairs, tilts, ect.

 

[MonkUnit]

Translucent, you're confusing me with toaster. I was the one playing Squirtle and he was the one playing Marth. Here's the vid for some MU discussion even though I've already linked it in two other threads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AnhBsKbKEc

 

[Translucent]

Oh, sorry man, I guess I got confused about that . I really liked how you used the mobility to get inside of Marth's comfort zone and used Down smash pretty well.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Monk, how do you expect any of us to cheer for you instead of Toaster when you chose to be orange and he chose to be purple. You know you need to be pink if you want any of us to support you when you're going against someone who's dressed in purple.

Anyway, it seems like a lot of us were right with our guesses about the matchup. One thing I'd recommend trying more is Usmash. I didn't think about it earlier, but it outranges Marth (vertically), so would be good in situations where you can't jump up and combo Marth.

Wider stages seem to be better for squirtle, since they let him pull off some good horizontal combos, and vertical combos don't seem to be as effective as we thought they'd be due to Marth's floatiness.

 

[Dubforce]

let's start with vs marth. what does squirtle do against him in general? it seems like marth has soo many things over him and easily gimps squirtle.

Bubble. Nuff said. Seriously, I'm not even kidding. Out psace him with bubble.

Also, I would like to officially condone watergun as vital in the marth matchup for spacing purposes.

 

[standardtoaster]

I could see bubble being really useful against marth. We'll try that out soon and see how it is. You guys need more vids, lol.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Now that Stingers is apparently also picking up Squirtle, I'll make sure we get a bunch of vids. I can't guarantee how good they'll be, though.

 

[traffic.]

Falco - While I am reserving a ratio as I only play against one incredibly talented Falco (read: 100/0 after the last 30 straight hours of playing) I am really interested to get some input on what others are trying to overcome the melee titan. Here's what I'm dealing with so far:

Neutral/Approach Game - Absolutely paramount. Lasers can force you into approaching with withdraw which may seem like a lot of fun hopping and spinning around, but it makes you incredibly vulnerable to dairs and shine pillars. Jumping in at Falco is hardly an advantage, with his vertical range being unparalleled and shine/laser janks making any height just as difficult to close the gap. Using his SS pivots to try and slide in with JC grabs or a charged smash has yielded better results, however being at any kind of a distance makes you a sitting duck for Falco camping, so it's tricky to time your momentum pivots between zappy zaps. Squirts loses the priority fight on just about every move matchup, so the neutral game has been a horrible mess so far for me to protect myself from lasers and go balls deep into some janky combo work. Fresh ideas on the matter of approaching Falco's neutral position would be greatly appreciated.

Offensive Combos - So far the most effective string of attacks I've landed has been open with an air Bubble (for the knockdown on grounded opponents) immediately land the giveaway Withdraw, and then based on DI, you can l-cancel a nair into all 3 hits of jab fairly consistently. I have essentially zero prior experience with brawl Squirtle, so things like jab combo cancels are something i'm looking into, but any solid chains of attack that you guys know of against spacies (or obviously any other matchups) would be great knowledge to share

Defensive Weaknesses - Being tied to the ground or having otherwise very linear approaches. Squirtle is left exposed to Falco's speed when going in from any kind of distance, whether it's pivot janks or recovery options, there is no shortage of opportunities for Falco to intercept your movement and open up his can of worms. And by worms I mean horrible horrible pain train. With no moves that really take priority over Falco, it's very hard to escape combos before hitting % thresholds when you can start to tech out of pillars, or fly far enough away with the limited DI available, at which point you fall prey to being damaged enough to die from everything he hits you with (less dramatically, f-smash, nair come to mind.)


So while remaining a 100% loss ratio to date, I suspect that once I am stronger with Squirtle it will resemble a 70/30 matchup in Falco's favor. Any tricks you guys have to tip the scales in our favor would be awesome, because it is not a happy camp at the moment.

 

[Dubforce]

I'm getting a roxio as soon as have the cash (a week or two) and I will start streaming asap. I'm improving quickly/constantly so I think that people will be able to take something away form my squirtle play, but more importantly I would like you guys to add to it. I am going to stream and ask for critique. Also I have decided to play no character other than squirtle until I feel like my overall playstyle is solid enough than branching out won't hurt me. So any input once I start streaming (excluding ERMAHGERD DERS GER SERKS ERT SMERSH BRERTHERS of course) would be awesome. I'll make a thread here later to ask for critique/help.

Now, marth. I played about 6 hours today, mostly against marth/wario.

Marth has a gauranteed gimp on squirtle if you are trying to recover with up-b and do not sweet-spot: counter. If he counters your up-b, the hitstun allows him to freely fair you into oblivion. Even with the best possible DI, you can say goodbye to that stock as marth prances back onstage and changes his blouse.

Mainly I find myself winning this MU with a few tools.
1) Watergun. Spacing. You have to keep him off of you until he messes up, then slam in and it him as hard as you can. Keep him just out of tipper range, Most importantly, DO NOT **** UP. Thats his job.

2) Bubble. A perfect bubble offstage sends marth to his doom, even if he has a fresh side-b, up-b and second jump.

3) Withdraw. This goes along with number 1. Space him out until he makes a mistake, then withdraw into him. Here where it gets tricky. If he DI's away just bubble him and then you have a free grab, even if he techs (which he likely won't). If he does NOT DI then nair him and go for a watergun reset. YES YOU HEARD ME RIGHT. A WATERGUN RESET. Its like a ranged jab reset and allows you to wavedash > ftilt or wavedash > JC grab FOR FREE. If he DI's into you just take the free Bair and don't try to follow up, as its too risky.

4) Ftilt. Its good. Theres not much else to it. A pretty much guaranteed thing I do is watergun > ftilt. Jump towards marth, use watergun (in air still), land in front of him, ftilt. You might be able to jab > grab or jab > jab > grab instead, but I'm not skilled enough to pull it off (yet).

Downsmash messes with his recovery and makes him feel a little pressured. But don't be a fool against marth. His recovery is too easy to sweetspot. Don't dsmash repeatedly trying to gimp him. Its a gimmick. Eventually hell just sweetspot and come back to chaingrab you. I recommend dsmash once and then wavedash offstage > reverse bubble. Works really well but takes a bit of skill to pull off.

Anyways. Thats mostly it for marth that i've got, at least as far as how to be offensive. I'll probably add defense stuff later, or as a response when someone says im ******** or something lol.

About wario ill say this now: squirtle has a ****ty matchup against wario. Its one of his worst, for reasons ill explain later. Just know, if you ever want to win tournaments, have a backup character for fighting wario, because you won't win as squirtle.

 

[Eaode]

Two important things:

1). Bubble kills falco on edgeguard. Period

2). Wario's nair kills squirtle on edgeguard. Period.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

After playing vs. Ike recently, I feel like it's a pretty good matchup for squirtle. He can't edgeguard Ike very well (SH bubble doesn't seem to work, and I couldn't find anything else. WG just lets him do another UpB. However, WG, SH Bubble, and Withdraw give him a great onstage game that lets him take advantage of Ike's slowness. It's still a tough matchup, but I definitely think it's in Squirtle's favor.

Also, Bowser/Squirtle is the coolest team ever. Turtle Squad for life.

 

[Eaode]

^^ this. Bowser squirtle automatically best matchup.

1) Both turtles
2) One is the biggest character in the game. The other is the smallest
3) both turtles
4) both have armor (though squirt's is nigh useless here)
5) both turtles

and it's insanely fun. Also you CAN'T miss withdraw. Like it's literally impossible.

 

[Translucent]

Yeah, playing against bowser when koopa color is awesome to do. Even though he kills you SUPER EARLY, you get a ton of hits on him. Also, red Squirtle vs red charizard is awesome!

 

[Gamester]

So I first wanna second everything Ellondu said about the Marth matchup but in addition you most definitely can wreck Marth once you close in. On the ground you have quick tilts and an insanely fast jab and can go into into grab -> throw -> follow up. And in the air pretty much everything comes out fast especially Nair.

Aside from when you're actually close however it is essentially just water gun and bubble. Which I also want to stress the importance of. Seriously a full hop bubble comes out at the perfect angle against grounded Marth I think they might be able to up-B? But seriously Bubble and Water Gun.

As for recovery, ugh It's important to not be so predictable and when you can go for instant aqua jet instead of waterfall. It's fast and will force them to switch up their edge quard timing. Additionally B-reversed Water Gun has it's uses when recovering high. To help cover your recovery it's pretty much just Water Gun and Bubble lol.

Oh and I think it's pretty much a given that proper usage of up-smash is good in every matchup. Are there even any D-airs that can beat it? If only Nair got some kind of water hitbox on it or something I'd be totally satisfied with Squirtle. To give the match-up a ratio I'd say 4:6 Marth's favor.

 

[Translucent]

So far, I would agree with 4:6 for Marth. It is definitely winnable but you have to abuse mobility and speed to beat his range.

 

[Translucent]

So can we continue talking about the Marth discussion or wrap it up so we can move onto a new one?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'm happy with where we've left the Marth discussion. I vote moving onto Ike or Fox next.

Also, why is the Squirtle matchup listed as even in the OP? It's definitely 0-100 in Squirtle's favor.

 

[Translucent]

I don't have too much experience against ike, but it seems like he's a slower version of Marth. He has range and some mobility, but his moves have some more startup. Can we gimp his up b with bubble?

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I posted my thoughts on the matchup above, but pretty much:

Ike's bigger range and crazy mobility make him difficult, but Squirtle can do a really good job taking advantage of his slowness. And I couldn't work out any way to gimp him during his UpB.

 

[bubbaking]

Wow, I should have just checked this thread. I've been spending all my time on the Gen. Discussion thread.

Here's a MU I feel is pretty bad for us (McNinja, this is a familiar one for us ): MARTH! We can't get in on that sword. It out-ranges everything so quickly. It's not like Ike because Ike has glaring holes in his defense. Marth can just wall us out. Recovering, too, is a pretty big hassle. He can just fsmash us out of Withdraw. That sword breaks most of our armored moves too. I just switch to Lucario for Marth, 'cause I can't deal. How do you guys do that MU? (>.<)

IMO, this MU ranges somewhere from 40:60 to 35:65, in Marth's favor of course.

Edit: Oh, so I guess that would be "Disadvantage" using this MU chart's system.

 

[Translucent]

For Marth, I think it's 40:60 in his favor. Water gun and bubble do a lot more work in this match-up, but you still need to abuse your mobility to get inside his range.

 

[bubbaking]

Ohhh, there is one thing about Marth I learned a couple days ago. Ok, so we all know Marth isn't the hardest character to edgehog/gimp. Well, oftentimes, just one well-placed Bubble from the ledge will gimp Marth successfully, especially if he tries to space himself to sweetspot the ledge.

 

[Translucent]

Yeah, you can't get lazy with bubble. You have to time it, but it sucks that Marth doesn't have to be so precise when gimping squirtle.

 

[Eaode]

So can we analyze the G&W MU? I have a LOT of trouble with it. I can deal with marth's speed range and priority, so I don't know if it's just unfamiliarity (I can count the number of good melee GW's I played on zero fingers)....

But G&W just seems to throw random object everywhere and they all have wicked priority, and the hitboxes stay out forever, or at least until the very moment to move itself ends. It just seems like GW stuffs squirtle, and his combos on us are kind of annoying.

 

[dettadeus]

bubble goes through literally every anti-approach option g&w has

grounded bubble probably outranges g&w's dtilt even, although using it grounded would be pretty dumb

approaching g&w shouldn't even be a problem, both characters die super early (kill g&w with usmash and uair, g&w will ALWAYS try to kill you horizontally so DI upwards if you know you're about to get hit hard), g&w is slow so you can out-speed him and force him to use one of his laggy moves to try and stop you from doing something (ftilt and all his aerials except uair leave him lagging for quite a bit), if he spams bacon then ignore him until he stops (if you don't have percent lead, withdraw should be able to go through bacon although i would suggest bubble or FH dair since his utilt has relatively bad coverage)
also whatever you do, don't get grabbed

my thoughts on squirtle vs g&w, since i play both chars

i personally haven't played the MU since i'm the only G&W and the only squirtle in my region, but i feel like it could be even

 

[bubbaking]

G&W and Squirt can potentially kill each other at, like, 70%. The difference is that I find Squirt has a much easier time getting in and landing a killing blow at neutral. Also, I find WG and Bubble to be much more reliable zoning/spacing tools than Bacon. However, for me, G&W is anything but slow. His moves are laggy, but they come out fast (unless it's nair which he combos into anyway), and G&W as a character is pretty darn fast and slick.

Does WD go through Bacon?

 

[Jackson]

This is a pretty strong bump, but I was hoping for an answer. Thoughts on the Wario matchup? I'm struggling with it. His Side B goes straight through Withdraw and kills me. His ground pound move combos me easily. He stops my approaches. I'm pretty frustrated.

 

[Burnsy]

Dont withdraw into shoulder then, lol! You need to be baiting him harder, it sounds like he is reading everything you're doing. Make him think you are going to approach or react in your typical way and then do something else that leaves you in a position to punish his missed read.

Also, Wario has an amazing CC game whereas Squirtle has a lot of great anti-CC attacks that this particular Wario might not be aware of. Mix up dsmashes, dairs, watergun, bubble and grabs in more with your other approaches if he is punishing your approach with CC a lot.

 

[Jackson]

Dont withdraw into shoulder then, lol! You need to be baiting him harder, it sounds like he is reading everything you're doing. Make him thi.nk you are going to approach or react in your typical way and then do something else that leaves you in a position to punish his missed read.

Also, Wario has an amazing CC game whereas Squirtle has a lot of great anti-CC attacks that this particular Wario might not be aware of. Mix up dsmashes, fairs, watergun, bubble and grabs in more with your other approaches if he is punishing your approach with CC a lot.

Sound advice, thanks. I've just gotta bait the Side B and punish.

 

[Burnsy]

Corrected my post a bit btw, fairs was supposed to be dairs. Thanks, autocorrect.

 

[bubbaking]

Wouldn't Squirtle's Bubble outrange and beat Wario's shoulder bash? Sounds like an easy quick solution to me.

 

[Dandy Lion]

I'm fairly knew to the competitive scene ― I've played Smash for a while and knew about the competitive scene, but participating is another story....

I have a difficult time against people that constantly pressure, like aggressive Marios and Falcos. Anyone have tips and tricks? When I'm panicky, I tend to throw out Withdraws which is a big no-no.

Spoiler: Personal MU experience, any advice would be appreciated!

Captain Falcon: 65:35
- knee at 60% can kill on small side blast zones like Wario Ware
- Capn can tech chase the shell outta you
- Squirtle can duck under a lot of his attacks, like Gentlemen, surprise crawl attacks inc
- bubblebeam seems to beat out side/down-b approaches

Charizard: 60:40
- Zard has crazy range and is deceptively fast on both ground and in the air
- Zard has a lot of crazy mix-ups with platforms due to down-b + wavelanding, not to mention glide
- respect Zard's Nair and try to not get hit with the sweetspot, not sure if Nair edgeguard will hit through Squirtle's up-b but I think it might if it's angled correctly
- do NOT withdraw spam a decent Zard, dtilt can outrange and dsmash will pop you up for something like a jab/ftilt/fair
- careful with bubblebeam approaches because Zard's jab has a very similar range
- Zard's tech chase potential isn't as great as Falcon's, but dthrow -> more dthrows or other options is very real due to Squirtle's poop tech rolls
[Zard's pretty much my secondary now as I try and understand Squirtle better]

Diddy Kong: 50/50
- you're both annoying as fk, it's great. and you both can have shades. double great.
- can side-b over his bananas and through the peanuts, don't know if I can side-b through his side-b

Jigglypuff: ???
- just fyi she can cc rest side-b approaches, best accidental kill in all randoms game ever.

Ike: 70/30
- swords. that's all i have to say.

Marth: 70/30
- swords. that's all i have to say.

Mr. Game & Watch: 50/50
- I've yet to see a GnW absorb my Bubblebeams/Water Gun, I feel like this would be more in GnW's favour if I knew they could absorb Bubblebeam
- GnW up-b has a hitbox on like frame 1 and can get out of a lot of combos, makes me sadface
- dtilt paddle can trekt you, you withdraw spammers
- i think his tech roll is nearly as bad as yours, so take advantage of that

Peach: 55/45
- play safe, play smart. this is probably one of the matches where you should be patient and try to understand how the opposing peach plays due to DO THEY USE COUNTER A LOT OR NOT
- do not side-b approach ever, ever, ever because she will cc dsmash or something else.

Roy: 65/35
- swords. that's all i have to say.
- he can cc you, but you can cc back
- holy gripes his dsmash comes out fast

Squirtle: EVERYONE WINS

Yoshi: 50/50
- pretty sure bubblebeam does not go through Yoshi's double-jump armour [maybe at super high %]
- bubblebeam > yoshi's side-b
- priority with yoshi/sonic/squirtle side-b seems to be whoever did it last has more priority, but i have no idea!

Zero Suit Samus: 45/55
- you can duck under a lot of her attacks/sweetspots
- Squirt's small hitbox makes it more difficult than usual for ZSS compared to other characters imho
- she's a combo heavy character but I feel like she doesn't have as many kill potential moves until you have very high %
- smart ZSS players will do a lot of low delayed bairs and forward-bs
- ban stages with walls -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgQ6zF79Ag[/spoiler]

 

[Burnsy]

I disagree with a lot of those MU details you provided but dont have time to go over each one right now. But "Swords. That's all I have to say." Really? Range is only one aspect of these matchups and having much more range than Squirtle does not invalidate what he does. Please dont be so one dimensional when considering MUs. Then again I'd argue that you wrote them off altogether too soon before truly considering all that you should have.