Secrets revealed! A Marth Pivoting tutorial.

[monkeyx4]

Im having some trouble with the Flicker Pivot i get it 4/9 times. i don't know if im going to slow or fast. marth is either dashing one way or continues to dash forward and not even respond to the input of dashing the other way.

Shield Pivot is stupid easy

Advance Pivot Fsmash i get it like 8/10 times. But while im playing in game i get it like 2/10 times its annoying i don't what im doing wrong can i get some help.

Great vid btw it helped a lot. it feels good getting and fthrow, Pivot Fsmash.

 

[Lethalx]

Great guide but i'm having trouble with Flick Pivot as well any help?

 

[AustinRC]

Sorry I haven't responded to questions yet. I've been a little busy.

@monkeyx4 - I think the reason you may be missing them is that you are hitting the c-stick too early.

@Lethalx - What is happening when you do the flicker pivot? What comes out instead? Be sure to let your control stick return to the neutral position after doing it, this is the most common problem when people try to do it.

 

[Onomanic]

Fantastic tutorial! Very well done, I'm looking forward to applying this to my game. :]

 

[BTmoney]

This thread should be stickied, this is way too good to not be used and commonly known

awesome guide

I now get this like 2/10th of the time instead of 0/10. Oddly satisfying.

And would you mind me asking you a few question about the advancing pivot fsmash? I could do it here but I kind of want to have more of a conversation (and inbox you) rather than a post-back-and-forth type of deal.

Can you get any grab->kills using this vs Sheik? What if they (Sheik) DI's inwards incorrectly so they don't fly so far?

edit:

After messing with this some more I can't get this to work at percents as high as 120% vs Sheik using bthrow (I stopped trying to get percents higher than that, looks like it just won't ever connect). Going as fast as I possibly can she'll barely hit the ground so a normal human will just tech the throw and not get hit. I get very close but no dice. Maybe you have to be frameperfect, and just eyeballing this it looks like fthrow sends her too far. =(

and I might as well not inbox you so we can all see what I'm asking and we all have access to any possible solutions/conclusions

 

[AustinRC]

Well firstly thank you for the kind words and support blacktician. Alright well if you want to ask more in depth questions we could talk on the phone. About to drive for an hour to work so now would be perfect. That or you could hit me up on Skype and we could talk about all the pivot questions you may have. Just PM me an we'll go from there.

Edit: I re-read what you asked yeah we can just have a combo on here or maybe do a stream where we are on Skype and I have a set up going that way it would be archived for everyone and you could ask me anything you wanted.

On the subject of sheik I haven't found a grab pivot that works on her yet I haven't tested back throw however I'm like 70% sure they can jump out. If you only had a few questions Ill just answer them on here.

 

[Omni]

I'm a bit confused. I'm assuming that all these combos work when Peach/Jiggly doesn't DI at all?

Is this similar to the concept of when you get an f-throw on Peach at say... below 20% with no DI and you're able to just f-smash tipper combo right out of it?

 

[AustinRC]

I'm a bit confused. I'm assuming that all these combos work when Peach/Jiggly doesn't DI at all?

Is this similar to the concept of when you get an f-throw on Peach at say... below 20% with no DI and you're able to just f-smash tipper combo right out of it?

No. What pivot fsmash covers is DI up/ up and away/ and just away. It covers the distance your opponent is thrown between wavedash fsmash and stand in place fsmash.

 

[Omni]

When you look at the video it specifically says, "Almost every character can DI down and away to get away from pivot smash!" so... that's why I'm so confused.

 

[AustinRC]

Many can after a certain percent. When they come to that threshold you are able to wavedash fsmash them. Only character you can never get a follow up off a grab is peach when she DIs down.

 

[DireDrop]

This pivoting stuff is awesome. However, I am totally unable to perform the flicker pivot. If I just dash in one direction, then slam the stick in the opposite direction and let it come back to neutral, I just dash forward then back again. What exactly is happening in the video?

 

[Bones0]

This pivoting stuff is awesome. However, I am totally unable to perform the flicker pivot. If I just dash in one direction, then slam the stick in the opposite direction and let it come back to neutral, I just dash forward then back again. What exactly is happening in the video?

Try dashing left, dashing right, and then as quickly as possible after pressing the stick right, roll it downward into a straight down position. If you know how to moonwalk, it is basically the same movement. I was trying to learn to pivot dtilt recently, and that was the method that gave me the best success.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Thank you guys for bumping this thread. I'm going to try to incorporate this into my game next time I touch melee.

 

[DireDrop]

Try dashing left, dashing right, and then as quickly as possible after pressing the stick right, roll it downward into a straight down position. If you know how to moonwalk, it is basically the same movement. I was trying to learn to pivot dtilt recently, and that was the method that gave me the best success.

Oh wow that really helped! But this is definitely the most difficult of the pivots. It'll be a while before I can do this consistently.

 

[Kadano]

I'm a bit confused. I'm assuming that all these combos work when Peach/Jiggly doesn't DI at all?

Is this similar to the concept of when you get an f-throw on Peach at say... below 20% with no DI and you're able to just f-smash tipper combo right out of it?

In case you still want to know: Go here and scroll down to Jigglypuff / 50%-90%. The image I posted there shows the exact DI angles for the different followups, including pivot fsmash after both fsmash and dsmash.

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks a lot ARC, helped me with my Marth Secondary.

 

[DJ _ICE]

Has anyone observed any top level Marths incorporating pivots into their game yet?

 

[AustinRC]

It seems like pewpewu has tried a little bit however he's seemed to be unsuccessful with it.

 

[Bones0]

They all pivot grab. :3

 

[DireDrop]

The only pivot I never see Pros using is that crazy Dash -> turn around -> Dtilt. They usually just wavedash and turn around.

 

[Bones0]

The only pivot I never see Pros using is that crazy Dash -> turn around -> Dtilt. They usually just wavedash and turn around.

Turning around is actually different from pivoting. Pivoting is more versatile than turnaround because you can do it during the dash animation instead of after WD lag. WDing is generally a higher commitment as far as movement is concerned, but the tradeoff is that you can easily do all of your moves afterwards unlike dashing where, unless you can consistently pivot, you are limited to dash attack and jump-cancellable options (grab, usmash, up-B, and actual airborne moves). Being able to perform stuff like pivot dtilt allows you to achieve the same sort of effect as a WD back dtilt, but significantly quicker.

 

[DireDrop]

Turning around is actually different from pivoting. Pivoting is more versatile than turnaround because you can do it during the dash animation instead of after WD lag. WDing is generally a higher commitment as far as movement is concerned, but the tradeoff is that you can easily do all of your moves afterwards unlike dashing where, unless you can consistently pivot, you are limited to dash attack and jump-cancellable options (grab, usmash, up-B, and actual airborne moves). Being able to perform stuff like pivot dtilt allows you to achieve the same sort of effect as a WD back dtilt, but significantly quicker.

I'm guess I'm using in-correct terminology. The D-tilt in the opposite direction out of a dash is the pivot I never see pros using. I only ever see them turn around after a wavedash, then D-tilt. The pivot Dtilt out of dash is super hard.

 

[Bones0]

I'm guess I'm using in-correct terminology. The D-tilt in the opposite direction out of a dash is the pivot I never see pros using. I only ever see them turn around after a wavedash, then D-tilt. The pivot Dtilt out of dash is super hard.

Whoops, I thought you said "The only pivot I EVER see..." My bad. lol

 

[DireDrop]

It would be cool if someone could do an in depth explanation of how to perform these. Shield, and smash pivoting are pretty self explanatory, but the flicker pivot is just killing me. Same with the pivot tilts. I'll try and do a pivot Dtilt 100 times, and about 70 of them will just be dash attacks, 20 will be pivot Smash attacks, 9 will be pivot Ftilts, and 1 will be a pivot Dtilt. My hands just don't even know what to do here.

 

[DJ _ICE]

So for pivot fsmash, do you input the c-stick the same frame that you also move the control stick or is there a few frame delay?

 

[DireDrop]

So for pivot fsmash, do you input the c-stick the same frame that you also move the control stick or is there a few frame delay?

It's got to be the same frame since there's only one frame you can input the smash. It might feel like you're waiting an extra frame when executing it, but you only have one frame to work with, not a few.

 

[Bones0]

I'm pretty sure you have to pivot the frame BEFORE fsmashing. If you do a pivot and press start on the pivot frame, you can hold the C-stick and unpause to do a pivot attack. If you had to press them on the same frame, you could just pause during a dash and hold left/right and C-stick, but this isn't the case. Someone posted a good visualization that helped me a lot. They said try to press the C-stick when your control stick is halfway to the edge of the rim.

 

[tauKhan]

It would be cool if someone could do an in depth explanation of how to perform these. Shield, and smash pivoting are pretty self explanatory, but the flicker pivot is just killing me. Same with the pivot tilts. I'll try and do a pivot Dtilt 100 times, and about 70 of them will just be dash attacks, 20 will be pivot Smash attacks, 9 will be pivot Ftilts, and 1 will be a pivot Dtilt. My hands just don't even know what to do here.

I use a different method to perform pivot tilts/ empty pivot which you might want to try out. The control stick inputs are following: first input dash in any direction, then go neutral, then as slightly above downwards diagonal to opposite direction as you can, and let the stick roll to the diagonal. In angles something like 0° -> neutral -> 215° -> 225° -> A (not sure exactly which angles are read as diagonal) to perform pivot dtilt to left. You also need to wait few frames before pressing A to avoid dsmashing.

This method has big advantage over flicker pivoting tilts because after the pivot your control stick is already in the correct angle to perform dtilts, and you don't have to release the stick at any point. It is also doable with loose sticks. Though I have to mention that I can't perform it consistently enough to be actually useful, but I believe it is possible to learn to do it consistently.

 

[Signia]

It would be cool if someone could do an in depth explanation of how to perform these. Shield, and smash pivoting are pretty self explanatory, but the flicker pivot is just killing me. Same with the pivot tilts. I'll try and do a pivot Dtilt 100 times, and about 70 of them will just be dash attacks, 20 will be pivot Smash attacks, 9 will be pivot Ftilts, and 1 will be a pivot Dtilt. My hands just don't even know what to do here.

I do flicker pivot by quickly hitting a direction but not stopping when the stick hits the gate. Continue moving your thumb until the stick slides completely off so that it returns to neutral. I can do it 90% but it might be easier for me because my control stick has no rubber, so the stick never clings to my thumb due to the grips on a normal control stick.

Stick looseness could affect consistency too, since that could increase the time it takes to get to neutral or in worse cases it won't even back to neutral without you helping it along.

For pivot utilt and dtilt, it hardly seems possible with the flicker technique, since you have to move your thumb back to the stick quickly and do a subtle stick movement to do the tilt faster than a wavedashed one. But I've been playing with the idea of doing tilts quickly by using your right wrist to tilt the whole controller while your left thumb firmly holds the stick in place, resulting in a tilt. The larger movement of tilting a wrist allows you to do it quickly without risk of moving the stick too far. Haven't actually tried this yet, though.

 

[Mattyboy]

This helps a lot, thanks for posting

 

[Hao]

It's got to be the same frame since there's only one frame you can input the smash. It might feel like you're waiting an extra frame when executing it, but you only have one frame to work with, not a few.

Would it be easier to perform a full dash, flicker pivot, THEN f-smash? As opposed to trying to get it on that 1frame, would give a bigger window to get the f-smash in, or maybe they can jump out in time if it isn't the very first frame

Mine are pretty consistent, like 7/10 attempts I get but, I don't wanna be missing it during a match etc.

 

[Crispus]

Flick-Pivot

So Idk why this works or if its just for my controller or whatever, but I sat down for like 5-10 minutes and I consistently got it (8/10) with these angles. Yeah, they're rough and my diagram isn't perfect, but flicking to just below the middle of these sides seemed to work. Didn't try it at all for the mirrored top sides since this seemed safer and wouldn't risk an accidental jump, but if you're having problems flick pivoting, try this and tell me if it works?

 

[tauKhan]

Flick-Pivot
View attachment 14196
So Idk why this works or if its just for my controller or whatever, but I sat down for like 5-10 minutes and I consistently got it (8/10) with these angles. Yeah, they're rough and my diagram isn't perfect, but flicking to just below the middle of these sides seemed to work. Didn't try it at all for the mirrored top sides since this seemed safer and wouldn't risk an accidental jump, but if you're having problems flick pivoting, try this and tell me if it works?

It works better because your turn shifts into dash only if you hold the control stick far enough on the turn frame. If you make the turn into an angle, it's easier to get the turn with having your stick closer to the center, so it doesn't have to travel so far back to avoid dash. I think the easiest method to pivot is dashing in as low angle as you can and immediately roll down to avoid dashing.

 

[Kadano]

Turning around is actually different from pivoting.

Why would you say that? To my understanding, a pivot is nothing more than a smash turn done out of a dash that isn’t intercepted by another dash (which would be a dashdance).

@ T tauKhan : Wow, great find! I’ll play around with these. It would be so good for Marth if pivot dtilts turn out to work consistently.
Here is the input-output diagram for Wait whose Smash Turn values should be the same for Dash :

Ideally, you want to pivot / smash the stick in the lowest part of the blue Turn area, and then move to the green crouch area within 1 frame.
I’ll do an octagon mod to one of my controller shells today or tomorrow and see whether it improves my consistency.

 

[Bones0]

Why would you say that? To my understanding, a pivot is nothing more than a smash turn done out of a dash that isn’t intercepted by another dash (which would be a dashdance).

I've always heard the pivot frame during the dash animations referred to as pivoting. That's completely unrelated to turning around which takes multiple frames. You just posted a list of the cast's turnaround frame data the other day, didn't you?

 

[Kadano]

I've always heard the pivot frame during the dash animations referred to as pivoting. That's completely unrelated to turning around which takes multiple frames. You just posted a list of the cast's turnaround frame data the other day, didn't you?

Those were tilt turn frames. Smash turns turn around instantly and can be canceled on frame 1 into dash. There’s more to it, all within Xyzz’s translation of my post on the German Smash Boards. You even liked that post.
Edit: What is usually referred to as a pivot is just a smash turn done out of a dash. By the same logic, a dash dance is a smash turn out of a dash canceled into another dash after its first frame. So mathematically speaking, pivots ⊂ smash turns.

 

[Bones0]

Those were tilt turn frames. Smash turns turn around instantly and can be canceled on frame 1 into dash. There’s more to it, all within Xyzz’s translation of my post on the German Smash Boards. You even liked that post.
Edit: What is usually referred to as a pivot is just a smash turn done out of a dash. By the same logic, a dash dance is a smash turn out of a dash canceled into another dash after its first frame. So mathematically speaking, pivots ⊂ smash turns.

Yeah, I understand you can turnaround without the extra frames, but it still seems silly to not differentiate between a dash pivot and turning around in place. The initial post was in response to someone talking about wavedash, turnaround, dtilt. Calling it a pivot dtilt doesn't make any sense.

 

[T-R3X]

Has anyone observed any top level Marths incorporating pivots into their game yet?

this was a while ago and i already linked this video in kadano's thread but still
game 4 especially.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y5xAb_5GgQ

mango had no idea what was happening lmao

 

[Kadano]

Yeah, I understand you can turnaround without the extra frames, but it still seems silly to not differentiate between a dash pivot and turning around in place. The initial post was in response to someone talking about wavedash, turnaround, dtilt. Calling it a pivot dtilt doesn't make any sense.

I never spoke out against differentiating between pivots and smash turns. But he didn’t write “wavedash turn dtilt”, he wrote “dash turn dtilt”. Which is a different, yet still correct way to refer to the technique usually called a pivot. Just like you could call a ledgedash a “wavedash from the ledge” or a “second jump to waveland from the ledge“.

The only pivot I never see Pros using is that crazy Dash -> turn around -> Dtilt. They usually just wavedash and turn around.

 

[tauKhan]

Wow, great find! I’ll play around with these. It would be so good for Marth if pivot dtilts turn out to work consistently.

Don't get too excited, I invented the method in Fall last year and never got any better than 7/10 at practice. I think this is still hard, but maybe a controller shell mod would work. I think I even posted it right here some time ago. I discovered the method when doing cf moonwalks with a bad method: I would go to 0°, roll to -45° and go -180° from there. After I had changed my grip slightly, for some time I would empty pivot with 95% consistency when trying to moonwalk. This is why I believe it might be possible to learn, but somehow I never managed to get consistent with it trying to do it intentionally. I'm probably bad at practicing.

On a side note I really hope people learn again to differentiate pivots from tilt turn methods. Even kage was talking about bair pivot ftilt as shield pressure with ganon, when he obviously ment bair turn ftilt.