Secondries for Sheik

[gm jack]

Sheik has some really bad matchups. Hence, a secondary is needed if you don't want to get destroyed should you happen to face the Ice Climbers or a G&W in a tournament. Found this out big time when my Zelda was so poor in my last tournament I lost in a supposed advantage against Ice Climbers.

Hence, in this thread, we make a list of the characters in a list of priority that a secondary needs to counter, and then we find the best characters for that role.

I suspect we can all agree that Ice Climbers top the list, but after that, I am not so sure.

/stolen from the ZSS board.

 

[stealth3654]

Pikachu should also be pretty high on the list, since Pika has a CG on Sheik from 0 to 100+

I say Zelda is good against both of them, and I do not think that Sheik does that badly against G&W.

 

[gm jack]

The trouble I have found is that Zelda is a boring character who lacks options. Against IC, I could avoid the grab with her smashes for a long time, but eventually, a single mistake or being too predictable (not hard with Zelda) cost me the stock. I then got fed up after two games of that, went MK and air camped the IC to death, and I rarely use MK. I just struggle to use Zelda effectively when contrasting so much to Shiek. I can just about get a kill if I am really struggling with Sheik, sometimes.

 

[Tristan_win]

The best 2nd for sheik is snake, marth, and maaybe game and watch.

If I had to pick I would pick game and watch since he's so easy to learn but really if you lost to a ice climber with Zelda then you have no one but you to blame. Learning how to use zelda is very nice just because of the ice climber match up and that it can't be counter pick against us.

 

[gm jack]

I normally do fine in the match, but this guy just had flawless chain grabs, and was very good at using empty short hops to bait me. Just need more practice, but I am interested in learning a character who has an easier time at either disrupting the grab and/or keeping them away. I found Zelda just too laggy that if I whiffed anything and they were close, I was in serious trouble. Then again, when I got momentum, I tore them apart.

I'm very tempted with going for dittos against Ice Climber mains, as it gives only one low percentage chain grab, and I know them pretty well.

 

[-Mars-]

I just use Zelda. I would say DK but he does horrible against Icies. In all seriousness though MK or Marth are the best options for a secondary.

 

[<π]

If you are going to sub meta or snake just main them...

 

[gm jack]

If you are going to sub meta or snake just main them...

Snake maybe, due to his ridiculous learning curve. Is there any unwritten rule that you can't have a secondary in a higher tier than your main? I enjoy using Sheik most of the time, even if it is an uphill struggle. I just dislike being hard countered, as then you really have nothing to do but hope they mess up repeatedly.

Trying to get back on topic, what are the characters that need to be dealt with most? Ice Climbers and Pikachu have been mentioned, but nobody else.

 

[-Mars-]

To be honest Sheik doesn't have as bad of matchups as you're making it sound. If you play a good Zelda/Sheik the only characters that in theory should give you a lot of matchup trouble is G&W and MK.

Other than that I guess Lucario, Olimar, Pikachu, and a couple others are difficult but that's why I haven't bothere picking up a secondary to my Sheik/Zelda......because you don't really need one.

 

[gm jack]

Do you really need one for MK? Solo Sheik doesn't do too badly.

Going with G&W, Lucario, Olimar and Pikachu, Marth has at least a 60:40 on all of them (and only Lucario is a 60:40 the rest are even more in Marth's favour). Those are better matchups than MK has (his average is closer to 60:40, while Marth averages closer to 63:35).

Hence, Marth would be a good secondary for Sheik. In addition, he also has a slight advantage on IC's, so he can also fill in that role if your Zelda is as bad as mine.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik does fine against MK. I was just mentioning him as one of her harder matchups because he is. ALl players are going to know how to fight MK with their main I thought that was a given......doesn't mean the matchup still isn't hard though.

 

[gm jack]

Sheik does fine against MK. I was just mentioning him as one of her harder matchups because he is. ALl players are going to know how to fight MK with their main I thought that was a given......doesn't mean the matchup still isn't hard though.

It was just she has plenty of 60:40 match ups and I found it weird you picked MK. Lucario I can see, as unless you have a lot of experience, he will live forever and the aura growth with destroy you. That said, a single low percentage gimp can ruin his game plan.

 

[-Mars-]

It was just she has plenty of 60:40 match ups and I found it weird you picked MK. Lucario I can see, as unless you have a lot of experience, he will live forever and the aura growth with destroy you. That said, a single low percentage gimp can ruin his game plan.

If you're going by that silly matchup thread that we have on this board for your matchup ratios......don't. For all you know MK might be a 35-65 or worse. No matter what ratio you want to put it at he's probably Sheiks second or third hardest matchup behind Icies and G&W.

Also the MK matchup is very stage dependent as I think on FD Sheik goes even with MK but on other stages the matchup becomes horrible for her.

 

[gm jack]

I don't ever find MK too bad, unless it's Rainbow Cruise. But that is banned as standard against an MK. I'd much rather face an MK than a Diddy. Same with G&W. Needles are a life saver, as the Fair and Bair do have landing lag which can be punished for 18% each time

I was just using that thread as I am not really sure. Hence why the question is being asked.

 

[<π]

Snake maybe, due to his ridiculous learning curve. Is there any unwritten rule that you can't have a secondary in a higher tier than your main? I enjoy using Sheik most of the time, even if it is an uphill struggle. I just dislike being hard countered, as then you really have nothing to do but hope they mess up repeatedly.

Trying to get back on topic, what are the characters that need to be dealt with most? Ice Climbers and Pikachu have been mentioned, but nobody else.

snake and meta have a higher learning curve than sheik IMO. that and they have better or equal match ups than her over all. If you are going to learn to play them at a competent competitive level you may as well just main them and sub sheik. My word is far from law though.

GaW, and meta aren't that bad for shiek.
pika and ICs aren't horrible either.

I am subbing jiggy and wolf right now, but I constantly teetering between maining wolf since often times I find myself thinking he is better over all than sheik.

Also, spare the fact that sonic was placed over Sheik on the list I could care less about anyones ranking on the teir list. it is near completely wrong and therefore meaningless to me.

 

[gm jack]

GaW, and meta aren't that bad for shiek.
pika and ICs aren't horrible either.

First three I agree with. For pika, you just need to let yourself get 20% of damage or so from thunder jolts (not sure on specifics) and then the chain grab doesn't work. But IC's decimate Sheiks entire game. I can't think of a single move bar long range needles that is safe on LC, and even then, Ice blocks stop needles.

 

[<π]

Ice blocks are like the slowest start up projectile in the game needles are among the fastest.

you can do any aerial on shield and not get grabbed.

ICs are easy to sheild poke with bair and fair and nair.

with shiek's speed once you seperate them it is very easy to keep them that way.

Or hey, you can switch to zelda who has no viable approaches against the climbers!... err i mean who has an advantage in the match up!!

 

[-Mars-]

Oh I forgot to mention that ZSS is perfect for a secondary for Sheik. that's who i'm currently trying to pick up although the learning curve is extremely difficult.

 

[East]

Ice blocks are like the slowest start up projectile in the game needles are among the fastest.

you can do any aerial on shield and not get grabbed.

ICs are easy to sheild poke with bair and fair and nair.

with shiek's speed once you seperate them it is very easy to keep them that way.

Or hey, you can switch to zelda who has no viable approaches against the climbers!... err i mean who has an advantage in the match up!!

I picked up Peach. Things get a little rough when they pull out the desynched blizzard gay, but all in all I feel pretty confident with her in that match-up. Perhaps peach isn't the best secondary for sheik, but so far she's worked. Maybe I'll get a little wiser and change once I come across a good Pikachu. Maybe... <_<

 

[SuSa]

To be honest, I'd main Sheik but use Snake as a secondary for IC's, G&W, and maybe Marth....

There is a difference between the reasoning of why I wouldn't main Snake....

I believe secondaries should cover matchups that should be extremely difficult /unwinnable to make them easier. Not to play whenever you have a disadvantaged matchup. <_<

 

[-Mars-]

Marth is in no way an unwinnable matchup.

 

[<π]

Yeah cuz Sheik doesn't have unwinnable matchups <.<

 

[-Mars-]

Lol <3 you are like Tristan's optimism on steroids

 

[gm jack]

Ice blocks are like the slowest start up projectile in the game needles are among the fastest.

you can do any aerial on shield and not get grabbed.

ICs are easy to sheild poke with bair and fair and nair.

with shiek's speed once you seperate them it is very easy to keep them that way.

Or hey, you can switch to zelda who has no viable approaches against the climbers!... err i mean who has an advantage in the match up!!

Ice blocks, maybe, but if they get desynced, they have a better rate of fire than you do. They just need to jump over your needles to start.

While what you say is right, a single mis-spaced move and you lose a stock. Also, they have very low traction. If they are dashing at you and they PS an attack, they will slide right next to you and grab you for it.

They should not be getting shield poked if they know how to angle their shield.

Agree on the rest.

 

[<π]

I'm just saying I play against ICs everyday... I can get around dsync'd Iceblocks very easily, dsync'd blizzard is a joke.

You guys are too afraid to approach ICs. there are exceptions but you shouldn't be getting grabbed if you are spacing correctly. if you mis-space an attack with any character you'll get grabbed.

you can onlt angle shield so much before you start to get sheild poked. And like I said ICs shield isn't amazing it doesn't cover them all that well.

For the record I've never been saying the match up is in sheik's favor, I've been saying sheik doesn't instantly lose.

how often do you guys play competent ICs offline?

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik has a definite advantage against ICs online, lmao. I doubt anybody would come to a conclusion of hard counter against Sheik from Wifi.

 

[<π]

oh... okay. I thought it'd be compounded because your reaction time is slowed even more spacing is more difficult etc.

I don't play online at all yet alone with sheik.

 

[Zankoku]

It hits the ICs even worse. You have to adjust your chaingrab timing to memory since you can't really rely on sound or visual confirmation with the heavy delay, and Sheik can just crossup aerial all day because it's impossible to grab that on reaction. Basically several things are a lot safer on Wifi and reaction time is de-emphasized.

 

[gm jack]

how often do you guys play competent ICs offline?

Played a not very amazing IC last Saturday. MMy Sheik get destroyed. He knew how to abuse their low traction (actually, I told him about this) and PSing's lack of shield stun to get close by sliding into you as your aerial hits the shield. Once they are apart, Sheik can tear them up (unless they can get that Dthrow CG on you while nana catched up).

To put it in comparison, I then played the same guy using MK and I didn't get grabbed in a fair few friendlies. MK can naturally break them up and camp with Dair to avoid the grab. Sheik can't break them up well enough that smart IC's won't force a mistake out of you.

 

[slickmasterizzy]

the biggest problem with zelda is that UNLIKE shiek you can depend on her tilts... they all take way too long and if their defended against zelda has some serious damage potential against her.... i dont know about you people but OTHER then shiek (and a basic understanding of zelda..) i main

ness
captain falcon (YES he has low priority but HES freaking fast)

 

[Bsrk_]

I use Zelda for IC on a stage with platforms to make them move around a bit more and give me an opportunity to seperate them better_ I try to keep momentum and set up for U-tilts or F-smashes with constant shield poking_

Otherwise i have been learning Zelda for an occasional sub/ teams and Lucario_

 

[iLight]

i secondary as rob, since some of the only characters i have difficult with i can deal with using rob. Aka falco, ice climbers, sonic, lucario, and wario if i'm feeling lazy =]

rob/sheik essentially cover all my matchups, and i use mk for the ditto

 

[saviorslegacy]

i secondary as rob, since some of the only characters i have difficult with i can deal with using rob. Aka falco, ice climbers, sonic, lucario, and wario if i'm feeling lazy =]

rob/sheik essentially cover all my matchups, and i use mk for the ditto

Sheik can Chain camp MK.
Throw out chain= instant win

Why would you want to give him a chance?

 

[choknater]

hm, i use ic's to cover my trouble matchups...

the only chars that give BOTH ic's and sheik trouble are rob, lucario, snake

i use snake to beat them, even then it can be pretty difficult. ahhh for some reason i have trouble with campy high range characters >_<

LOl savior, chain camp does NOT beat mk why do u keep thinking that! theres much more to it than that

 

[gm jack]

If you could chain camp MK, the ratio should be the same as the Ganon match up. That one is **** because Sheik can properly chain camp him after throwing a single needle to get the % advantage.

 

[Tristan_win]

If you could chain camp MK, the ratio should be the same as the Ganon match up. That one is **** because Sheik can properly chain camp him after throwing a single needle to get the % advantage.

...You CAN chain camp meta knight but the reason why you can't chain camp him so easily as to say Ganon is because...

1. His attacks are much faster
2. He's smaller
3. He can easily jump over you
4. Disjointed hit boxes on all of his attacks can snipe you out of the camp if your not ready
5. He's a **** ton faster then Ganon in ground speed, specials, and although I don't known to be fact but I suspect air speed as well.

Even so though you CAN chain camp meta knight and can get a good sum of damage on him for doing so but realistically unless you can last the entire 8 minutes without blinking then it's probability for the best to only do it for a minute, maybe longer.

..Oh I've briefly mention this in the past but something people should keep in mind is that the jump chain can combo into it's self on hit but like all attacks it cannot do so in super low percents. You will find that you will be able to chain camp better in the 50's then say the 10's and this is true on everyone.

 

[-Mars-]

The only time I got hit out of my chain camp was with a SH dair from MK. It was probably due to player error more than anything else. In fact the only time I ever get hit out is because I haven't perfected covering the top and backsides of Sheik with the chain. I really think their's validity to the theory......it just needs to be researched/put into practice more.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Proper use is all you need.

Use the chain at the ledge facing the stage.
Use it under a platform.
Use the chain in a way to get the entire length out.


You can counter most counters.
Just fear most energy projectiles.....